Death of my beloved 2000 C2 (?)

Track day. Session 1, something not right�no codes. Session 2, check engine light flickered�off by the time I pitted out�Durametric, misfire cyl 4 and 6(?). Tried to drive easy to town�one mile down the road, engine would not come off throttle/rpms easy, too loose. Another 1/2 mile, grinding, then loud knocking, getting worse and worse. Pulled over. Engine died�no codes. Tow-strapped to a track shop. Turned it over for everyone�s entertainment�engine fired and REALLY loud knocking for one second�raised eyebrows, ignition off and done. Not or sure what�s wrong, but car is now stranded in the California desert, 100 miles front home. Hoping for the best. But prepared for the worst.

Doesn't sound good man

Any loss of coolant? Oil in water or water in oil? You will have to pull the plugs on 4 and 6 and see what comes out. You could drop the oil sump pan and make a visual inspection. I wonder if the knocking noise was pre-detonation, or something went mechanically wrong. Good luck!

No loss of coolant�didn�t look for intermix yet. Pre-detonation may be on to something. When I say knocking, it was like a deep rattle or pinging, like when luging in a way-too-high gear, but loud. Crept up over the course of a half mile. Seems like something went really wrong with the timing. Maybe one bank started to fail or it�s chain started skipping teeth? But I don�t want to start it to find out. I�ll know more in a few days. Logistics of getting this car home and to a shop are the next step.

Do not start it again!

remove oil filter & inspect

Got the car home. It is too late tonight to do much else, but I did verify there is no oil in the water and no water in the oil, and the oil on the dipstick is clean�no glitter. I won�t start it again. I am am going to call some local shops in the So Cal area. It would probably be impossible to diagnose the problem without dropping the engine, but maybe someone who knows these engines can give me an idea without starting it or turning it over. if I don�t get any answers buy next week I�ll be dropping the filter, and maybe even the pan.

One more thing...Ran my durametric, no faults found. Can�t diagnose anything without starting, but nothing is stored. ?

wow, I hope it wasn't started one too many times, but for sure it's internal, and it's significant if it's really a knock. if it's a ping, they can be loud too - not sure if rapid succession could be caused by ignition electronics but it sounds possible.

How many miles? Mainly a track car?

Sounds like exactly what happened to my 2000 this past summer on the track. It was oil starvation and the rod bearing is thought to have went braking the rod. One of the 5 pistons does not go up and down when you turn the engine. Decided to put in a 997S engine.

Car has 154k miles!. Daily driver. Never gave me major issues except for a O2 sensor and a MAF sensor. Not counting parade laps, I have only tracked it twice: once with the PCA at a track day event, the second two days ago. And I am a novice for sure who just wanted to have casual fun with his car. I really love this car. Everything on it works (except one of my key remotes) It has been well maintained, is clean, and solid, but not to the level that would make the car very valuable. I have done a lot of simple work on this car myself, and spent too much on it already�I just don�t know if I can stomach a new engine.

Make sure to capture an oil sample when you drain the oil. If it's not obvious that there is an issue, send it off for an analysis. Best of luck.

sounds to me like the IMSB. pulling the sump will tell you a lot.

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same

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IMHO I think you are asking for trouble tracking a car with 154K on the clock.

You'd be better off selling it as a roller and buying another 996, set it up properly and enjoy it.

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Kinda depends on how the current car is setup. If its got a well sorted supension, rollbar, upgraded brakes, etc, then it would be tough to replicate that with a new car. Also depends on the OP's mechanical abilities and his bargain hunting abilities as it relates to finding a good engine. There are bargains out there if you can wait and are diligent about casting a wide net.

Misfires/bad coils often sound loud and pretty bad on an M96 even though it's just that, a misfire. Clean oil and no intermix, I would pull a plug and look inside before going crazy about the next steps.

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I have to agree. I tried to start my Chevy smallbock for the first time and thought I blew something up big time when I heard the equivalent of a gun shot. The timing was off and the cylinder open fired with the exhaust valve open. Hopefully the OP just has something painless like this.

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It all depends on how you track your car. If you're out there shifting at the redline throughout the whole session and extracting every last horse out of the engine then yes. But if you're instead using the track session to learn the technical nature of a track and try to perfect your turns before building speed then I would argue it's not really that much different than daily driving.

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I was unaware there was any other which way to drive on a track in a...., Porsche.

I don't typically take my car to the track, just drive it in the canyons. When I "tracked" it the first time I was fairly conservative with a PCA instructor in the novice (green) group, but was able to do some good lap times. The second (last?) time I tracked it was with a different organization--they moved me out of the novices since I was experienced and I didn't need an instructor. But then they moved me up again, but it turned out to be two steps up (skipped blue and purple, up to black--I'm sure color is meaningless). The next group was very experienced and equipped (Audi RS super cars and Caymans with full race wings, etc.) so I really pushed it--for me anyway--obviously a big mistake. It seems there were only a few kinds of drivers: kids with their tricked out economy cars, older guys with their brand new leased sedans or supercars, a few fully spec-ed out race cars, and guys with beaters. I was the only one with a rear-engined, 18-year-old, low value daily driver. The spec Cayman blew his engine too! Not a good day for the Porsches.

Glitter. Done and done. Oil filtered through cheesecloth No need to cut it open Glitter in cartridge housing. Magnetic Magnetic Looks like Testors paint

Sorry for the loss. Do you plan to rebuild, source a used engine, or move on?

Sorry for the bad result here. You can always ditch the roller & grab an e36 m3 to get back on the track. Or a Boxster if another m96 is what you want to drive. Good luck going forward.

I am leaning towards the rebuild route�if it can be. I have researched some of the exchange-type services for these motors as well. It is all pricy, but if it is less than the cost of a well-sorted car, it might be worth it. Walking away is probably the sanest option.

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What fun would there be in that.

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I don't agree. At a race track I am constantly over the speed limit, even on a cool down lap. Can't compare at all to daily driving.

agree, if you are at the track and it feels like daily driving, you either drive like a maniac on the street, or you drive like a grandma at the track. Full throttle (even if not to redline) to full brakes, right back to full throttle, with max G turns thrown in the middle is not like daily driving to me.

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To be honest, it�s too bad that Porsche cannot build engines that can sustain maximum performance without blowing up. Yes, I know an old car cannot always be expected to perform at these levels, but then again, there are plenty of other engine builds and designs by this and other manufacturers that can hold up and have held up. We call those bulletproof. Porsche needs to return to this design concept, even for street Cars.

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Ok so maybe it was a stretch to compare it to daily driving. But what I meant is that there are some sessions where you are going out there to set new lap times. But then there are other sessions where you're focusing more on the technical portions of the track and trying to refine your skills there so you can go flat out the next time. That second scenario is the one that I believe to be not as hard on the car. But back to the OPs concern and his next steps!

Next steps: I have done some research, and there are at least two shops here in Long Beach, CA that are referenced here and other sites as doing rebuild work--UFO Motorsport and 9xx motors. UFO is actually mentioned also on the PCA website, but their phone is no longer in service. 9xx has a website that explains their exchange procedures. They also offer rebuilt motors on ebay and offer to install at no extra charge if you send them your vehicle. I called 9xx and spoke with Jason, but this was BEFORE I dropped my oil filter and revealed the glitter. He seemed very knowledgeable, asked a lot of detailed questions trying to diagnose the problem with the few details I had. He didn’t push me into a rebuilt he had on the shelf, and said that all the ready engines he had at the moment were spoken for. He though it would be best to look at my engine to see if it could be fixed, and if a rebuild engine is needed we should probably stick with mine if possible. Turnaround time would shoot for about month. I understand that all rebuilds are not the same, just as not all engines serve the same purpose. Since my car is not a concour specimen or a performance monster, but a daily driver that I am okay with parking in a Home Depot parking lot or cruising through the canyons, I want to find someone who understands my needs for the car, not a theoretical purpose or future owner. My problem is that I REALLY enjoyed driving on the track with the PCA for their DE/Autocross event. Apparently, building a motor that can comfortably take regular abuse will be expensive, much more than the typical rebuild/refresh offered by many. It may not work out, but I may be willing to use my AAA tow to a shop to find out.

Have you considered a Miata? You can roll the dice on a rebuild that might be cheaper, but the risk of failure is higher than if you spend more upfront and go with a proven engine builder. You either pay now or pay later, and every time you go out there, anything can blow up, regardless. If my engine blew up, I would not sell as a roller, but instead probably buy a used engine or have mine rebuilt for street use. If I really wanted to track, I�d get a different car.

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Here's a mod I haven't gotten around to yet but plan to do at some point. Track those temps & ease off when you go north of 250F*. You're not going to be able to run long sessions reliably but a session or two per day seems doable if you keep an eye on your temps & let it cool down in time. *someone like Slakker has more knowledge than me on tracking temps & reliably tracking the m96 Oil temp gauge using the built-in oil temp sensor https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...mp-sensor.html I think either way you look at it, you'll need to spend another $5-10k to get track reliable. Whether that's a turbo, an M3 or miata on the side, or a dedicated dry sump system like this: Boxster Dry Sump System https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...mp-system.html

The shop I was initially towed to was full of BMWs and Miatas prepped for the track. The mechanic said they are cheap and easy to work on. One of the quicker cars at the track seemed to be a beater Miata--the muffler started to fall off and the owner claims the car had around 87 horsepower and the tires are less than $200 a set, but it seemed to keep up pretty well. I also own a 1968 912. It is fun to drive but there is no way I would take it to the track. This is why I got the older 996--something I could drive a bit harder--bad choice.

You should do an oil analysis. No seriously, hear me out. The oil analysis would shed some light on if the failure was quick or slow, and what was damaged beyond the IMS. Also it would be good for a laugh.

Sorry to hear man. Might want to talk to Arredondo in Torrance (I haved used) and Auto Werkstatt in Manhattan Beach (I haven't used but have heard good things). If you're looking for a track car, I think you should look at the prices of track cars. You could probably buy a nicely built Miata (or two) for a track ready M96 rebuild. Maybe a s2000 or Integra GSR if you want more juice.

9xx has a good rep...Good luck and keep us posted!

So, I told the local engine builder what I found, and he was able to describe it before I could finish. Apparently, and I am simplifying, the gold flakes indicate a rod bearing failure. Most likely, the bearing was starved of oil when cornering and failed, probably also causing damage to the connecting rod and crankshaft. So, a rebuild would at minimum involve replacing the rod, probably the crankshaft, and any other damaged internals. Heads are likely ok or salvageable. He would have to crack it open to find out. He is fairly certain that the high-g cornering in tracking this car caused the problem. Since I did not have an upgraded baffle in the sump, necessary for tracking, parts of the engine were momentarily starved for oil. I guess this failure is not common in everyday driving, but because I tracked the car when it died, that is the most likely culprit. Even a inexpensive baffle upgrade may have helped alleviate this. At any rate, there is a general flat fee estimate for a rebuild engine. There is a fee to crack open and diagnose which is credited if I do the repair. The non-salvageable components (e.g. crankshaft, etc.) will need to be sourced and deducted from the core charge, but in this case the core would be my own engine, so I am just buying these components. The engine will be rebuilt with a list of standard replacement parts and additional parts as needed. This all makes sense, except I didn't think my street tires could pull enough Gs to starve the engine of oil! Also, the misfire codes, that went away, puzzled him a bit. He thought it could be that the AOS was overwhelmed and dumped oil into the intake, momentarily fouling the plugs in one bank. I guess this can be likely if you really top off the engine oil when tracking, which I did. He recommends running the engine oil on the low side. I don't want to misrepresent what he told me, or cause controversy, but this is my understanding after a brief phone conversation. It all makes sense to me, though.

The deep sumps don't prevent failure while tracking based on everything I've read here. They can delay the temperature increase that causes viscosity breakdown and/or foaming (often labelled starvation). But multiple sessions in a day are likely to overwhelm even a deep sump quantity of oil. Don't beat yourself up over the sump thing as many have lost engines with deep sumps. I don't want to pry too much, but is there any way you can share ballpark figures on the rebuild so we can keep tabs on the different cost options out there? Good luck moving forward, it sounds like you're in good hands.

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Check out Vision in Laguna Hills. Dwain is the owner and has built engines waiting to be sold.

I don't want to post exact numbers since everything is still up in the air, but 9xx lists their engines for sale on Ebay , which is the rate he is quoting me for my engine, but that price assumes a core value of $6500. So really, it is $15K for the engine, minus the value of usable core parts (up to $6500) plus any upgrades--I assume sky's the limit. They will install for free since I can ship/tow my car there. There is a flat fee to break down the motor and assess the core, which is credited back if you choose to do the rebuild. It is not posted anywhere, so I won't quote it here, but it is equivalent to 10% of the full motor cost. There are also other options, but I need to do some soul searching first.

Thanks, that's helpful.

A lot of folks think that street tires cannot generate enough g-force to make a car fast on a track. Those same folks say things like, �you have street tires, so you won�t really be pushing it too hard.� Makes no sense to me. Wide open throttle can be had on any tire. At-the-limit braking as well. So what�s left is turning, and street tires are able to attain 0.9g easily, enough to pin most of the oil to the side of the oil container. I ran all seasons on my two track days and saw oil pressure drops in long sweeping turns on both of them. Others do as well. It�s actually pretty common with these cars, and Vettes and BMWs as well.

Most cars will suffer from some form of oil starvation at the track when driven hard enough, especially in stock form. I push Z06's off the track more often than pcars. This isn't a 996 thing. And the technology that has gone into these sport/street tires is night and day when compared to 15 years ago. A good performance oriented tire can provide you with tons of grip.

My tires are/were practically brand new Michelin Pilot Super Sports on 18" rims, 225 fronts, 265 rear. But my car was set up by a previous owner at GT3 ride height on H&R coilovers, and it had 996 Turbo wide body hollow spokes (295) when I bought it. This is obviously an insane amount of rubber for an engine that can starve itself of oil so easily.

I spoke to another engine builder here in the socal area, mentioned in a post above. He disputes there are starvation problems, generally, but says there is a weakness in the rod bearings and the amount of oil they hold during high RPMs. Also, he agrees that there was probably a AOS failure that caused some hydrolocking that exerted additional pressure on the connecting rod and bearing. Many opinions.

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Was ims replaced?

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I have the LN dual row ceramic IMS. Neither builder thought it was an IMS issue, but maybe I�ll find out.

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Many opinions, but there are facts that are difficult to dispute: watch a myriad of YouTube in car racing videos of Boxsters and 996s that all show oil pressure drops in the turns. You can actually see the 4-5 bar of pressure drop to 1-2 bar.

Sounds and looks like rod bearing failure caused by oil starvation to me as well... But AFAIK the bearing material is not ferrous, is it? If the car was driven with a rod knocking for a while, I fear the presence of that much ferrous materials could be indicative of unpleasant additional damages. Good luck to the OP... I feel your pain, dealing with similar issue.

Yes, there is likely damage to the crank and oil pump or secondary oil pumps as well. This is why the cost isn't so straightforward. As far as the drop in oil pressure, I don't want to put too many words into anyone's mouth. This came from the owner of Vision Motorsports here in southern California. I don't think he is saying it is a NON-issue, but in MY case it typically comes from the rod bearings not being able to handle MY novice abuse and over-revving rather than starvation. He has a whole list of things he does to an M96 motor to make it track and even race worthy, and he seems extremely knowledgeable. 9xx motors thinks a baffle would have helped and maybe even prevented the bearing failure in my case. In any case, he recommends some sort of upgrade if I ever expect to take it to the track again. He is similarly knowledgeable to Vision, and both shops spoke highly of each other, showed mutual respect for each other's opinions and work.

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sell the 912 (since they are selling for ridiculous money) and buy a 996 C4S - You will be delighted with the better performance and beautiful lines. after purchasing the C4S, you should have a decent amount of money left over after selling 912 and roller

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I do love the wide bodies...

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The big difference between a failed 996 engine and the corvette is money .The corvette is less than 7,000 for a new factory engine .

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So ^^This^^ seems the most realistic scenario for an engine failure to me. It's clearly a confluence of factors/weaknesses that leads to catastrophic failure. In addition, it was probably happening for quite awhile before the engine actually broke (maybe even started during the first track day). This is why it's so important to track prep these engines (or any engine for that matter) before taking them to the track! Tracking IS an expensive hobby no matter how you slice it - pay now or pay later, but you will pay to play

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i've owned 3 C4S's - they are a great car unless your 912 is some sort of barn find or one owner gem i would sell it in a heartbeat and buy the C4S i sold my 1959 super sunroof 3 years ago that i restored 25 years ago - the joy of the C4S performance out ways anything the 356 could give me other than the deco design. and back then the offer i got was ridiculous so it made sense and still happy i made that decision. 912's are a dime a dozen and nothing to write home about - early 911 yes keeper sort of if C4S wasn't lurking in your mind. good luck whatever you decide!!

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How easy is to to fit a 997S into a 996?

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Thanks tips. Lol

The engine is in the shop for a teardown. Expensive, but the condition and mode of failure will factor into my decision to rebuild, replace or just ditch the car. The car has always been reliable--I loved it when it was a survivor, but with all the negative press, and the very real flaws of the M96, I don't know if I can continue abusing myself with this car any longer.