2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex

There is a lot of information on this forum (and others) about rebuilding 996 engines, but much of it is several years old or UK-centric. I've spent a considerable number of hours researching options for rebuilding my '99 996 engine and collecting my notes into a comparison spreadsheet. Despite the inevitable arguments that will ensue about various approaches to rebuilding these motors, I'm going to share it to help others who are in my unfortunate predicament. Some background, caveats, and assumptions: 1. My car has bore scoring which enables/requires different rebuild approaches than IMS or other failure modes. 2. I'm located in Chicago, and shipping costs reflect my location. 3. I decided to only compare engine rebuild specialists and not general shops that offered to do the rebuild. 4. Engine removal & installation costs reflect the best quote I received from a Porsche specialty shop in the Chicago area, but I got quotes for more than twice that amount. 5. I left blank any part replacements I could not confirm. I have detailed proposals from some vendors but relied on public information for others. Which is to say, some of the parts left blank might actually be included in those builds. M96 Engine Rebuild Comparison Spreadsheet I'm certainly missing some things in the comparison. Your constructive comments are welcome here, and you can also add comments (but not edit) any of the cells in the spreadsheet.

I don't know if it's a factor for you, but turn around time might be something else to look at.

Quotes source post: 15802173

@JTT Good call. I�ve been asking about turnaround time and there significant differences, but I forgot to add it to the spreadsheet. Thanks.

" I'm certainly missing some things in the comparison. Your constructive comments are welcome here, and you can also add comments (but not edit) any of the cells in the spreadsheet." While ^^this^^ may look like an "apples to apples" comparison, it's not. There are just too many subtleties to lay it out like that - especially on price. Especially to the "uninitiated" this table makes it look like all builders can be considered the same when that's clearly not the case. I commend your effort, but I think that to someone that's coming in cold shopping, there are lots of "traps" in there. One that jumps out is the "IMS Bearing"... AFAIK, only FSI uses the IMS Solution as standard on their rebuilds... This would add a $2k (at least) premium to the other builds. There are more "gotchas" especially on the less expensive builds. Once again, I appreciate what you're trying to do but it should be prefaced with a disclaimer such as ** These listings are for preliminary comparison purposes only - there's no replacement for in-depth research by the purchaser concerning parts and methods. * While turnaround time is certainly a big factor for some, it really shouldn't be. Putting a time limit on quality is asking for trouble...

OP: Thank you for posting your work. Have you considered and priced an option where you source all your own parts and use a shop that builds M96 motors for track work? JTT and dporto are correct. All of the fore-mentioned items add up when evaluating such a pricey project. I’m always assessing all these factors “just in case”. And, not to hijack a thread, but what are the shop hours for a full build and for drop and reinstall?

Three other options to consider: 1. Porsche factory shortblock 2. Hartec rebuild (in North America this is Alpine Auto in Calgary) 3. Rebore and nickasil plate (multiple companies)

@dporto A few months ago I was the "uninitiated" - new to Porsche, facing an extremely difficult and expensive decision, and getting differing advice from forums and shops I talked to. In all, I've talked to 6 independent Porsche specialist shops, two of which directed me to EBS Racing for the rebuild as a quality cost-effective builder, and I found a few builders online on my own. One of the things everyone on the forums says to look out for is how many parts are actually replaced in a build. This spreadsheet initially, and still mostly, is meant to compare the builds in that dimension, especially because both RND and FSI make that a top selling-point in their sales materials. And with good reason - it looks like they probably do replace a lot more stuff than other builders. However, the parts list from EBS Racing compares quite favorably. The type of parts, like sleeves and IMS bearings, are definitely a factor and that's why they're noted on the spreadsheet (check the comments on each cell for IMS bearing). Just like me, anyone who is considering a rebuild is going to have to weigh how much value they put in using the more expensive parts. I am aware that would be the most contentious part of this thread. However, I haven't seen anyone else even attempt to put together a methodical comparison of the options. If I had this spreadsheet at the start of my process, I still would have done a lot of homework, but this would have saved me a lot of time. I'm hoping it might do the same for someone else.

A couple of comments on the FSI Street Performer: The new Nickies cylinders increase displacement to 3.8 on a 3.6 engine Since this engine gets The Solution you also get a new spin-on adapter as it is different than the basic one New water pump included As info...

Great spreadsheet, a lot of good information there.

Quotes source posts: 15802319, 15802319

That's essentially the EBS Racing option on the spreadsheet. They are both a parts supplier and an engine/transmission builder for street and race cars. The quotes I've received show the price but not the hours.

Quotes source post: 15802338

1. Literally every person I talked to said the factory short block option was a bad way to go. It costs about as much as a rebuild and you still have old heads and other old parts that can cause problems. 2. It was unclear to me if Alpine Auto is actually doing the rebuilds or if they just announced the partnership. Not much info online. I should give them a call. 3. EBS gave me this option and it knocks about $2k off the cost and results in the original displacement. I should include it in the spreadsheet. I think this is also how 9xx handles it, but I need to confirm. The downside is that it seems to leave you open to the cylinder cracking/chunking issues in the future.

Quotes source post: 15802347

@wildbilly32 Thanks for the info. I was hoping that other folks here would help me tighten-up the comparison and I've updated the spreadsheet for the FSI engines. The displacements listed are reflective of starting with my 3.4 motor, but I've included the bore size so people can apply that to the 3.6 as well.

Quotes source post: 15802387

Sorry I missed that you were starting with a 3.4, duh! You are correct the Street Performer would get you 3.6. Sorry for the confusion.

Quotes source post: 15801159

Simplify your decision by insisting on LN Nickies cylinder liners.

Quotes source post: 15802615

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigok.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigok.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigok.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigok.gif

Quotes source post: 15802555

Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped it to a 3.8

Quotes source post: 15802615

Yes, if cost is not a consideration, only considering the most expensive parts simplifies things. EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.

Quotes source post: 15802698

I bet it is a blast to drive now. Congrats!

Quotes source post: 15802698

That's going to be some fun once it's broken in!

Quotes source posts: 15802783, 15802885

Thanks, and yes, really looking forward to the increased output and reliability going forward.

I had assumed that an elective rebuild from FSI was MUCH higher. I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar. That�s a VERY tempting price! Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild. I thought about requesting a quote but didn�t want to waste Jake�s time until I was closer to being ready.

Quotes source post: 15803512

Same cost.(don't ask me how I know...)

The difference here is pretty small compared to the risk of future issues, in my opinion. This is one time, I�d be careful about trying to save money.

Quotes source post: 15803779

True this...

Quotes source post: 15802707

Also consider the different expansion rates of steel vs. aluminum inside a aluminum case.

Quotes source post: 15802343

As I said in my previous post, I commend your effort. I understand that you're trying to help out - and showing the various options available is definitely helpful - but I think trying to simplify (over-simplify?) the learning process is actually a disservice, in that it may cause some to just compare the superficial stuff and not dig in to what's really going on with some of these rebuilds. I won't belabor this any further, as I think I've laid out my case, and there are clearly plenty of others here that think what you're doing is cool! I do too, I just thought it was important to point out the potential pitfalls...

Should ad the Porsche short block exchange also...

Quotes source post: 15806233

I can't find anyone who even wants to give me an estimate on swapping out a shortblock. Consensus seems to be that it costs about the same as a rebuild and leaves you with worn out heads and a block that's still susceptible to bore scoring and d-chunking down the line. Plus, no warranty on the engine. Quote from a high-end indy shop in Chicago: "Yeah, it's not a good option. The labor cost would increase substantially, as these motors require a lot of attention to detail. not to mention the cost of new chains, guides, head gaskets , etc. I think the cost would probably be the same, if not more, to just have the motor rebuilt as a whole. Also, consider that rebuilding the motor as a whole would most likely be backed by a warranty." Quote from Charles at LN on another thread here: " It's damn near criminal to take the heads off an engine and reuse all these used parts on a new shortblock. Wasted labor and a recipe for disaster. The heads always need rebuilding and there are lots of other pieces that need to be changed that aren't included in the shortblock. Just saying."

You need to understand the comments are correct about a factory shortblock. There are lots of things that still need to be checked and likely replaced. It is a viable option though. If you want a stock power engine that can go another 100k if you take care of ancillaries it is an option. I�ve considered getting a 3.4 shortblock just to have handy in case my 3.4 or 3.2 ever has issues.

Excellent comparisons and (mostly) comments. FWIW, (1) the skill of the engine builder is extremely important (and hard to assess), (2) my builder offers the industry standard warranty (1 year/12K miles), but for an add'l. $2500 offers an extended warranty (3 yrs./36K miles)...old adage: you get what you pay for. relinuca Porsches Forever, or until the checking account is empty.

Quotes source post: 15804184

I've read a lot on the topic of different sleeve types and have discussed this on other threads. Folks who install iron sleeves will tell you their builds hold up well in the long-term for both commuting and even multiple seasons of racing. Folks who sell nikasil-plated aluminum sleeves will tell you they see engines where the iron sleeves shift due to thermal expansion causing problems. The iron sleeve manufacturers say that only happens if they're installed improperly. The problem is, there is no objective data on the relative reliability of any of these solutions (or on the factory engine, for that matter). The shops who install iron sleeves may genuinely have never seen one of their sleeved blocks fail, but it could happen at a later date and it might happen to other builders. The shops who who fix iron sleeved engines by replacing them with nikasil-aluminum sleeves would only see failed engines, so they don't have any idea how many engines are successfully rebuilt with iron sleeves (reverse survivorship bias). There isn't clear consensus on this topic, or good data, and that's what makes the decision difficult.

Quotes source post: 15808398

That's very interesting - who is your engine builder? Definitely agree with point #1.

Awesome work and thread.

Quotes source post: 15808410

The fact that Iron expands and contracts at a different rate than the parent material surrounding it (Aluminum) is really all the data I need to tell me that Aluminum sleeves with Nikasil plating are superior to Iron. 10% is a worthwhile up-charge in my book, as a failure down the road will wind up costing much more...

Based on suggestions here, I've updated the spreadsheet with a row that compares turnaround time where I have that information. Obviously, that is a factor that will change over time, and I've noted that in comment on the sheet. I've also included EBS racing variations for nikasil plating and Nickies sleeves, for cost comparison on just that one dimension.

Quotes source post: 15808339

You should get the quote for the factory shortblock install from a Porsche Service Center, include the cost of reconditioning the heads also. If done at a Porsche center there will be a warranty on parts and labor. The expansion rate for aluminum vs ductile iron is different, but there are different aluminum's and ductile irons. Adding silicon to aluminum (Alusil, Lokasil ect) decreases the expansion rate of the aluminum depending on the percentage. The higher the percentage the less the expansion. I am not a metallurgist, but I have read that it is possible to have an aluminum alloy and ductile iron with the same expansion rate.

Lots of critical items are left out of the comparison spreadsheet... Items like graded, and coated bearings, what piston rings are used, what exactly is done to the cylinder heads, and etc are just a few of the missing links.

Quotes source post: 15810331

@Flat6 Innovations Since FSI is the gold standard for rebuilds, I used the parts list from your website as the basis for the comparison. If there are critical items included in your builds that aren't listed on your website, please let me know and I would love to add them as additional rows to the spreadsheet. I've added comments to the cells on the spreadsheet denoting the type of pistons, rings, and rod bearings, where I have that information. If you want to let me know what kind of rod bearings are used in the FSI builds, I will add them. The spreadsheet is open to comments, so you're also welcome to add them yourself. I have a row for head refinishing (valve job, surfacing). What else is missing in terms of cylinder heads? I appreciate your expert input into making this an accurate comparison. Thanks!

Quotes source post: 15808511

Do not most aluminum engines have cast iron bores? I would think it's a non issue but I'm far from an expert.

Quotes source post: 15810428

i would suggest adding: new valve guides new valve seats new valve springs also thinking about combustion chamber volume measurement/equalization.

Quotes source post: 15804184

Spot on. Expansion rate differences indeed come into play here. We are members of the AERA Engine Builders Association and there was an article a while back about sleeving aluminum blocks, in particular Alusil Audi V8 (however they do show a photo of an M96 block in the article). Commonly a cast ductile iron sleeve in an alloy block, like an LS engine, requires .002-.003" interference and the block is heated and sleeves chilled prior to installation. When this was attempted with the Alusil block, the block cracked between all the cylinders on one bank. Through trial and error, they found that they need to reduce the interference to .0005"-.001" to not crack the block, again, per the article. What I find interesting is that they said that they heated the block to 155F which would open the block up .0008-.0012", which "to our delight, each of the sleeves dropped in quite nicely." This backs up what I have seen in blocks that we're re-sleeved with Nickies after being done with steel sleeves. Either the sleeves can move during operation, which in fact we've actually seen them rotate (see above) or they fall out of the block in our ultrasonic which is heated to 180F. We've also found blocks that were cracked and not salvageable after having been sleeved with steel/iron sleeves as well, like what was mentioned in the AERA article.

Quotes source post: 15810745

Has to do with the difference in the casting alloys used on the aluminum blocks and their design. Aluminum blocks that are designed to be sleeved with iron sleeves, like the LS, have wider bore spacings. Beyond the weight reduction and increased efficiency an all-aluminum engine provides, one of the reasons why OEMs have gone to all aluminum engines without sleeves is to reduce the bore spacing and also allow for larger bores within those constraints. That's why some blocks take to traditional steel/cast iron sleeves better than others.

Quotes source post: 15801159

Thanks for this analysis. I just have a few comments. I would also like to clarify that on the RND engines, new intake lifters are fitted except with variable lift (Variocam Plus) intake lifters, where those are inspected for wear and cracks, and replaced only if necessary, and at cost. RND does also offer direct plating for certain m-codes where the cylinders are less prone to failures, so that would be a cost savings. I also would to point out that in Vertex's price, new sleeves and pistons are not included. If you read their website closely, it says the pistons are checked and re-ringed. Anything beyond that costs more.

Quotes source post: 15810776

@Coopduc Thanks for the suggestions. Valve guides are already included on the spreadsheet. I added a row for valve springs, and one for valve stem seals, which are listed as included for at least some of the builds in the comparison. Are "valve seats" and "valve stem seals" interchangeable terms, or do they refer to different parts? For combustion chamber work, is that getting into the realm of porting, polishing, etc? I don't think that level of work is included in any of the builds at this price point.

Quotes source post: 15810889

Valve seats are not interchangeable terms with stem seals. All cylinder head rebuilds should bare minimum have a valve job, resurface, and new stem seals. That's the basics. As far as seats, with these engines the intake seats on the 3 chain heads are the ones that are known to come loose and cause catastrophic failures. We replace them on RND rebuilds as well as the guides. Exhaust seats usually do not need to be replaced. Valve springs are checked and replaced only if needed.

Quotes source posts: 15810872, 15810872, 15810872

@Charles Navarro Thanks so much for your expert input here. My hope was that posting this comparison would help me to refine it. I've updated the RND section of the spreadsheet with this info. This is very interesting. The RND site states "Select models including the Cayenne S and Turbo V8, Panamera V8, and 9A1/9A2 engines feature Nickies Lite direct plating process." I assumed that statement excluded all 996 engines. Can you elaborate on which M96/97 engines can be plated?[/QUOTE] I have an email from Vertex where they say they will include sleeving at the price listed on the website if I ship my engine to them for rebuild, rather than an exchange. The site has a giant picture of a JE piston with the statement "JE Pistons installed" but looking further down at the parts list, you're right that it only includes rings. I have an email out requesting clarification.

Quotes source post: 15810902

I've updated the spreadsheet to reflect this info.

Quotes source post: 15810982

2.5, 2.7, and 3.2 models. Blocks get resurfaced to correct for runout on the deck, which is usually at least .002". Blocks are also pressure tested both before and after plating and are honed to our specifications and go through our strict QC processes like all other Nickies receive. It's not even an M96 piston they show, FWIW.

Great thread! I appreciate the professional analysis, thank you!

So the RND rebuilds doesn't offer the 3.4 -> 3.6 conversion? I was under the impression this was a no brainer that had no impact on cost. Just benefits!

Quotes source post: 15811153

Correct. We just do stock rebuilds that are fully improved with Nickies, IMS Solution, ARP hardware, etc. for those who want a bulletproof stock replacement engine.

Quotes source post: 15811163

Curious to why? I am sure your rebuilds are awesome but it seemed like that extra displacement would come for free almost?

Quotes source post: 15812141

Fair question. Some people want a stock rebuild, but beefed up. RND is for that very particular customer. We aren't looking to corner the market on engine builds, as we are plenty busy sleeving blocks with Nickies and with all our other parts we make in house. More importantly, in the coming months, we are going to offer engine kits and blocks on exchange, to better support the DIY owner and enthusiast.

Updates: 1. I confirmed with Vertex via email that they will include sleeving and pistons at their published price if you pay to ship them your motor for a rebuild rather than exchange for one of their stocked motors. I also asked about increasing bore size/displacement and they said they would do increase my 3.4 to 3.6 or 3.8 for an extra $2k. I updated the spreadsheet with latest info for Vertex. 2. To make the spreadsheet more applicable to different 996 engines, I changed the displacement/bore size row to only show bore size, and added a comment to the first column with the resulting displacement changes for 3.4 and 3.6 blocks. 3. I had a very interesting call with Alpine Autowerks in Calgary who do the Hartech rebuild method in North America. I'm waiting on an email with details, and will update the spreadsheet and this thread when I have them. 4. I've called two different Porsche dealers to get a quote on a short block exchange. One hasn't returned my message for a few days. The service writer at the other one tried to shuffle me off to the parts department until I pointed out that I need them to R&I the engine and swap the heads. I could practically hear him deflate on the other end of the phone as he told me he had to talk to his technicians and would call me back. We'll see.

Quotes source post: 15812141

@turbogrill I saw Jake Raby post in another thread that he was happy to have LN rebuild stock motors so FSI could concentrate on modified motors. Since a lot of people think of LN and FSI as synonymous (or at least equivalent), and there is enough demand for their rebuilds for them both to have a long wait list, it would seem they've made a friendly agreement to split the market this way. Jake and Charles can correct me if I'm reading into this incorrectly. Although, it's interesting to note that the FSI Stocker competes directly with the RND rebuild, as the spreadsheet shows.

Quotes source post: 15810812

@Charles Navarro Thanks for the detailed information about thermal issues and the photos. Definitely helpful for understanding the sleeving process. I'm also looking to gather at least some anecdotal statements about longevity from different providers, since everyone offers the same 1yr warranty regardless of approach. You've sleeved a lot of blocks with Nickies at this point, and I would assume any owners with issues would come back to you first, so how many of your sleeves have ended up with scoring or other issues?

Quotes source post: 15802319

@hatchetf15 I just noticed in my notes from a phone call with one of the shops that the engine R&I with clutch install was 18 hours.

Quotes source post: 15812763

The biggest issues we see with any engine built with nikasil cylinders, either Nickies or Mahle Motorsports, and that goes for aircooled or watercooled as well, is improper cleaning, assembly, using synthetic oil at break-in, and most importantly, overfuelling, especially during break-in, which can happen with any engine, regardless of cylinder technology employed. Excess fuel either from a bad injector or a vacuum leak causing enrichment will wash down a cylinder bore in short order and wipe the rings out, requiring the bore to be deglazed and re-ringed. Case in point, a well known and respected Porsche shop had a factory Porsche shortblock score on the same cylinder 2000 miles in as had scored on the previous engine. Injectors tested ok, but they obviously were not. That's why we mandate injectors be replaced when rebuilding or replacing an engine and why we have detailed instructions for the RND program or what and what not to do when installing an engine. We have had a few customers over the years, aircooled and watercooled, including complete RND Engines or with blocks sleeved by LN with Nickies, have problems attributed to these issues caused by one of these errors or failures we've identified that are not an actual defect or issue with the Nickies cylinders or sleeves themselves. Case in point, we have a car that had an RND Engine fitted at another shop come to us with a massive vacuum leak (diagnosed by smoke test), which required us to tear the block down and rebuild the engine to correct the damage caused by the shortcomings of the installation. The reason I am going to such lengths to make my point is that we often see shops cut corners or are just purely incompetent, almost on a daily basis, trying to be the hero by saving the customer money or lowering acceptable standards for what needs to be changed or done during any particular job (IMS replacement, engine rebuild) to meet a price point rather than lose a job to another shop. Lastly, a warranty is just a piece of paper. What can't be quantified on any spreadsheet is years of support on various forums and through emails by Jake, myself, and other shop owners. None of the other engine builders or parts suppliers listed participate at any level supporting the community that gives them business. That aside, I have been supplying aircooled cylinders for almost 20 years and sleeving M96 blocks for a majority of that time, and I would suggest anyone considering having an engine done to search the forums and the Internet for negative experiences with their Nickies cylinders.

Quotes source post: 15812745

Correct. They compare almost exactly because Jake built the RND program for SSF Auto Parts originally. With SSF bowing out of the engine business, I have taken over RND since the start of the year and rolled RND into LN's operations.

Amazing thread. If my M96 decides to give up the ghost someday I think I�ll be looking towards LN or FSI for help with making the Aerokit run like a true GT3.

I hope something is becoming apparent to everyone. Choose an engine builder wisely. Your engine builder has to make lots of decisions on every fastener, every washer, each part, chains, guides, bearings, coatings, clearances, deck height, sealants, gaskets, and 100s of other things. No spreadsheet will account for this unless you list each and every item. An actual human decision needs to be made. Who�s employees do you trust most to make all these decisions? Choose wisely because choosing incorrectly means doing it all over again. I�m not going to tell you how to choose, or who I�d choose. I already know which way to go on this one. Your car, your decision.... enjoy the drive. Also Charles already mentioned bore spacing concerns. The M96 has lots of engineering concerns. Seeing one in parts is eye opening if you�ve ever worked domestic V8s. Porsche really is asking a lot out of a very compact small displacement engine with light parts. You walk a very fine line when trying to save money on this engine. Bore spacing, rod ratios, bearing sizes, materials, rpm, and a ton of other things tell you this engine has a hard life. Then the lowliest one in a 911 makes 300 hp..... It�s a wonder they last this long.

Quotes source post: 15813300

Which is another reason that I phased out the "Stocker" program here at Flat 6.

Quotes source posts: 15813284, 15813284, 15813284

@Charles Navarro Thanks for another great and detailed technical explanation. It's hugely helpful for those of us how are interested in the details. One question for you: if replacing injectors is critical for the longevity of the engine, why doesn't RND replace them as part of the rebuild? Seems like the customer is going to pay for it either way, and there would be less likelihood of bad installer causing problems for both the you and the customer. I think it's great that you're going to great lengths to make your point, because it's an important one. I think there is some sentiment (maybe 'hope' is a better word) that Nickies are a silver bullet, and if you include them in your build you are immune to problems with the block. However, engines are complex systems, and any part you replace might fail due to some other part of that system. As you point out, that's true even for a rigorously engineered and flawlessly manufactured part like Nickies. I hope you know I'm not questioning your your technical knowledge nor your integrity in any way. The way you conduct yourself here on the forums, the technical knowledge you share, and the reputation your products have garnered in the marketplace are all first rate. I know it's probably too abbreviated a way to capture all this, but there is a reason I have RND's reputation listed as "Excellent" in the spreadsheet. I'm thinking about how I might revise and expand on that aspect of the comparison to better capture the nuance. All that being said, I think it's a perfectly fair question for a prospective customer to ask about reliability outcomes for a very expensive mechanical product. And warranties aren't just a piece of paper, they are legally binding protection for customers that enables them to compel a business to stand behind a product or service. Warranties aren't everything, but if they weren't meaningful, then every vendor would offer longer warranties. I also feel obligated to point out that although your reply was full of useful and relevant information, and it does acknowledge that Nickies sometimes experience problems (due to installation error), it doesn't answer my original question of what percentage of them fail in practice. That's important data, because it would tell a prospective buyer just how often builders are installing these incorrectly, and thus the risk of hiring anyone other than RND to perform the rebuild, right? Please let me know if you see a hole in my logic.

Quotes source post: 15813842

@Flat6 Innovations Your website and the email you sent me both list the Stocker as an option. If you're saying that you're no longer offering it for sale, then I'll remove it from the comparison spreadsheet.

Does doing a rebuild increase the value of the car? In a rebuild is it best to keep the original block so it’s numbers matching? Be gentle with replies. Thanks for the thread, it is totally useful.

Quotes source post: 15814236

Of course it does!

Quotes source post: 15814181

Injectors are a part of the ancillaries, not the engine itself. Eventually, we will offer engine and install kits through RND, and injectors will be one of the items we include, but for now, we just advise that injectors be replaced rather than be rebuilt. I value the time and effort you have put into this and I do think everyone here will benefit from what you have shared. I don't see this as negative or that you are questioning or challenging me in any way. It's an opportunity to educate and I do not mind the questions. I welcome technical discussion, as many of your have seen by the substance of my posts. You won't see me commenting or joining in on discussions where I can't offer anything constructive or beneficial to the topic. What I was trying to get across is that yes, a warranty is meaningful, but the true test is that we just don't see warranty claims with our Nickies. When we do have a problem, it's important to learn from it, and not repeat it. Part of that is from the years of R&D, but mostly, it's about our process, design, and strict quality control. There have been several threads on this forum and Pelican about smoking and oil consumption with blocks or cylinders that have been reconditioned. We know from our experience this is due to improper honing. What might be ok for a two-stroke race motorcycle isn't correct for a Porsche that you want 100,000 miles or more of service life out of. We have our own standards and requirements for our cylinder plating than if you sent a block or set of cylinders to be reconditioned to Millennium Technologies, than what they do for other customers. 100% of cylinders are measured for ovality, taper, and suface finish (Rvk, RpK, and Rk) to ensure customers don't have any problems, so when there is a problem with an engine, we know it's not because of our cylinders, plating, or how they were finished. I know this is a very long answer to a simple question, but the point of all this is to try to minimize anything that could result in a warranty claim. That's why we don't see them. Sorry I wasn't more clear on failure of Nickies. I would have to say zero failures of Nickies that aren't due to some other failure compromising the cylinder or engine operation and that also goes for both aircooled and watercooled Nickies. Nikasil itself has been used for decades and is known for it's extremely low wear characteristics and longevity and there have been zero structural failures of our cylinders or liners in normal service and operation. We have seen some blocks and even aircooled cylinders after having suffered engine failures that are not cylinder related that have required the plating to be redone, but that isn't very often at all considering that we have probably. We have had the opportunity to examine engines that have come apart for freshening up. Cylinders can typically just be deglazed and pistons typically are replaced in race applications. We have not had to make any changes to the design of our watercooled Nickies for the M96/M97, however inspection of the pistons and rings have allowed up to improve piston designs, which have changed several times over the years, based on these observations. Likewise, skirt coatings were optional and now they are standard with every piston we sell. The used oil analysis from a fresh rebuild and inspection post teardown showed skirt coatings reduce run-in wear and extend component life. As far as who does the assembly of an engine with a block we've sleeved with Nickies or installs an RND engine, we provide detailed directives and guidelines (which can also be downloaded for free off the LN site) that should be observed. It's up to the customer, shop, and/or engine builder to follow them. Likewise, selecting an engine builder or shop to carry out any work on your car must be carefully researched and shopping for services by price alone is fraught with consequences. There are reasons why some shops qualify customers or have wait lists for new customers. The download library with our bulletins and guidelines, for those who are interested, can be found at https://lnengineering.com/education/...l-library.html

Quotes source post: 15814236

Unless you do the work yourself, I would not expect rebuilding the engine will result in an increase of the value of the car to offset the rebuild costs. That's why cars with broken engines sell for next to nothing. We deal with this issue on a daily basis. It's a big ticket item to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. What I tell people is this - "How much would you have to spend to get an equal amount of enjoyment out of a new Porsche." Usually, if you look at it from that angle, a $20-30k investment is cheaper than writing the car off and buying a Porsche. Some wear Porsche off forever where for others, their car is so tired and wore out, that it doesn't make sense to fix it. We are there for a disproportionately small number of owners who have a car worth fixing and see the value in doing so. As far as the original block is concerned, Porsche didn't track engine numbers in production records or that information isn't available to us, so there isn't really any loss in value if the car doesn't have the original engine case.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/05/...021&yptr=yahoo Maybe add this to the list? 30k 😀

Quotes source post: 15820628

Good luck shoe-horning that into a 996

Quotes source post: 15821417

True, but an LS3 will fit and has been done many times. At the risk of being blasphemous, it would be interesting to include an LS3 crate engine in the analysis. There is no disputing the power increase, and some claim it can be done cheaper than rebuilding a stock engine. I don�t think the latter is true without using a junkyard engine and lots of hand fabrication.

Quotes source post: 15822655

Yah, so many throw out the LS swap comment like they know what they're talking about, most don't!

Tyler Hoover documented his build with a junkyard LS3 and the Renegade kit. https://www.autotrader.com/car-video...w-much--269126 Parts were about $14k and it was 85 hours of labor. That brought his cost to around $17k total. It puts the LS swap in the same neighborhood as a rebuild. Maybe a viable option for someone who has cheap/free labor and who doesn�t consider a flat six integral to the 911 experience. Looks like using a new crate motor motor would add another $3-4K to the cost.

Quotes source post: 15823373

It should also be noted that he also blew the ls engine shortly after the swap.

Nice thing with LS engines is that they can be had for cheap on junkyards. So if your engine blows then you just buy a junkyard engine for $2000 (or spend $20k on a built one. Whatever you want). I don't think the swap makes sense since its so expensive, you can have a solid m96 for the same price. If the swap was $5k - $10k then it would be a very interesting option and would be a dream track car.

From Speedway Motors $7363: Hoovey did the swap on the cheap. It is much more expensive than his numbers. 808 has recently shopped a professional conversion I just don't remember the numbers. Chevrolet Performance 19369326 LS3 6.2 LS Crate Engine, 430 HP LS3 Chevy LS V8, 376 cu. in. Engine Displacement, Deluxe Crate Engine Crate Engine Type Chevrolet Performance Parts estimates this item will ship on or before May 15th. Part # 35519369326 Save 6%$7,362.99$7,911.00 each

Very interesting to see and thanks to the OP for all the work, and to experts chiming in. I hope it helps and finds whoever needs guidance if they ever are on this road. (not a rebuild situation, but My own experience with FSI was simply Awesome)

I would also point out that another youtuber bought Hoovie's 996 and took apart the LS3 and found oil starvation was the cause of the blowup. Apparently it was because the engine was mounted backwards and the baffling in the oil pan wasn't designed for that or something? I would assume there is a fix? Considering there have been quite a few LS swaps, no reason to believe that Hoovie's experience is the norm. You Tube Also, if we are doing powertrain alternatives, why not include electric? There have been a few conversions for a 996 so far, no? You Tube

Quotes source post: 15814364

This. I figure if my motor blows up, I get a rebuild (better, faster, stronger) and I now have a $50-60k really healthy sports/GT car. My coffee buddy wanted to sell me his �12 C2S for $60k. For me, whether it�s a 996 or 997, matters not. A rebuilt motor will tip in favor of the 996. YMMV TC

Quotes source post: 15814364

Does this mean that Porsche doesn�t include engine serial numbers on a Certificate of Authenticity for 996s? If I remember correctly, I think my 928�s CoA includes engine and transmission numbers but that�s from a different era in Porsche.

Quotes source post: 15824203

The COA for 996 does include the engine and transmission serial numbers..

Quotes source post: 15824253

I'd like to see one as I've been told by multiple people in the know that they don't include those details. I'll happily accept being wrong because it really should be provided. Even so, so many engines were replaced at the dealer and is very common with the 986, 996, and later models, that I don't see that affecting value at all.

Quotes source post: 15811163

Doesn't really address all the failure modes though, does it?

Quotes source post: 15824528

For a street car I would say it covers the major points with ARP rod and carrier bolts, chromoly oil pump drive, Nickies, new coated JE Pistons, and IMS Solution. The RND rebuild is not intended to replace a race prepared engine with CP or Mahle Motorsports pistons, billet rods, billet tensioner paddle, Total Seal rings, coated bearings, 2 quart deep sump, etc. For that someone would go to Flat 6 Innovations for a Track Performer to get those benefits and the ability to also have ported heads and other proprietary performance modifications.

Quotes source post: 15824472

Here is one, not very often I have a chance to correct you. . BTW I don't know if they update the info when a factory replacement engine is installed, they do receive the old and new engine numbers when the replacement is done, and are insistent on them before they pay the warranty claim, but have not ever followed up on whether or not they change the engine number, I'm guessing they don't !!

Quotes source post: 15824135

Yeah it's really simple, since the beginning of time Porsche's have lacked low RPM torque. Increasing engine displacement solves that

Perhaps there has been a change or its handled differently in the US vs UK, but here is one I ordered for my 2010 several years back, which does not provide engine or transmission numbers.

Quotes source post: 15824811

That's interesting, definitely has been a change. That now makes me wonder about the IPAS information, the dealership lead tech or service manager has the authorization to get the IPAS info, which has the complete build log, in-service dates information along with engine and transmission numbers, all programming codes, and all software numbers ect.. Much much more information than a COA (but without the official signature). I'm wondering what all has changed on that front since I retired. I may have to give one of my old buddies a call.

Though my older Boxster 986S did, I just need to find the image. And the COA came with the Car after delivery. I also got a cool Block of Aluminum with Crest and VIN Number engraved. Stuff like that was pretty cool to get once you bought a new one. Mike COA TARGA factory Poster w/ COA zoomed in

Mods please delete.

I have a contact that says they�ve changed the process in order to prevent people from using a CoA to obtain the original serial numbers and then use that info to modify non-original components to match the CoA data. Supposedly now the only way to determine if your classic P-car is numbers-matching is to take it to an authorized Porsche Classic dealer. Only they have the ability to scour the internal database and will then give you a thumbs up or down on what�s installed in your car at that moment. TIFWIW.

After a bit of prodding, I did get some additional information from Alpine Autowerks, the Calgary shop that installs the Hartech sleeves from the UK. For those unfamiliar with it, they have an extensive rebuild involving wet liner aluminum alloy sleeves with Nikasil plating. They also modify the heads and block to convert the engine to a closed deck, which they say stabilizes the cylinders to reduce the risk of movement and bore scoring. Finally, they make some adjustments to the coolant flow to improve cooling, especially on bank 4-5-6, which again, they say is important for avoiding scoring issues. On my initial call with Marc at Alpine, he indicated that their shop was very busy, with 6 cars currently undergoing engine rebuilds. He also indicated that they had not rebuilt a 3.4 with Hartech sleeves yet, and had to consult with the UK to confirm they were set up to do it. He also conveyed that they had seen some motors rebuilt with Nickies that ended up with scoring, and had rebuilt them again with the Hartech process. (I'm not looking to start a battle about sleeves again here - for more info, see Charles' excellent post that addresses Nickies reliability earlier in this thread). I didn't get a detailed quote from Alpine, and I'm not going to pursue it, as they seem overwhelmed and I'm not likely to go this route. The info I do have from them is as follows: * The 3.4 is repairable with the Hartech sleeves. Displacement increase is an option. * Turnaround time for the engine build is currently 2-4 months. * The repair cost for a bare case is CAD 5,500. * The typical cost for an assembled long block is CAD 12-15K (Engine rebuilds are � la carte so the actual price is determined after tear down & evaluation.) * A total build including installation is CAD 17-20k. At current exchange rates, CAD 15k is roughly USD 11k. That makes this a potentially attractive option for US owners, assuming the higher-end build from them includes a similar parts bill as the other high end options in the comparison. However, my sense is they might not be so easy to work with from a long distance. For someone close to Calgary, this likely an excellent option.

No follow-ups from either of the two Porsche dealers I contacted about the factory short block swap, and I'm not going to hound them to take my money. I'll stand by my earlier conclusion that no shop wants to do this job. Perhaps it's a viable option for an owner who can take on a rebuild project on their own.

Call Jason at 9xx in Cali. if you want to ad to your list.

Quotes source post: 15828689

Already did. They are columns H and I on the spreadsheet

So which way are you leaning at this point? You've done an excellent job here and provided valuable information.

Quotes source post: 15828221

This is great information. I wonder how much to ship back and forth the long block. Makes me think of dropping my engine in the fall, sending the long block to Calgary for the winter and re-installing in the spring. Although I have to admit I had this dream of shipping the whole car to them for the winter, picking up in the spring and driving her back (first 1000km to break in, last 2500km mach schnell)

Quotes source post: 15829014

Once it's all said and done, I think shipping the car would be the best option.

Quotes source post: 15828835

Depends on the day. Sometimes I wake up thinking I can talk myself into sinking $15k+ in this car, other days I just want to light it on fire and roast marshmallows with the kids. I know you're following the used engine thread too. I'm getting a little more info on that front, and I'm going to make a decision in the next few days.

Quotes source post: 15829014

In order to properly test the engine under driving conditions, the engine needs to be installed in the car. This is pretty much the position of Flat 6 Innovations (though I think they will accept an engine in a crate, they strongly discourage it). I can't imagine it would be any different for other engine builders.

Quotes source post: 15828221

Awesome! Someone local to me! This is a big deal, as sending my car to th US is not an option

Quotes source post: 15829500

They will. I think he has an engine dyno too or at least a "run" stand.

Quotes source post: 15829495

I thought your car was still running, are you driving it?

I put it away for the winter in November and it was running, but was running rough. I haven�t wanted to drive it and have it deteriorate further if I�m going to rebuild the engine. I have an E90 BMW 335 for regular transportation, so I don�t have to rely on my 996.

Quotes source post: 15829647

^^Not the same as testing the engine in the car...

While the Porsche dealers wouldn't call me back, I did finally talk to someone about the Porsche short block option. My BMW mechanic recommended an indy Porsche specialist who is a former Porsche dealer tech, and recommended the short block option as the most cost-effective route. I'll add the details to the spreadsheet, but the total cost is about $12k. That includes the new short block, a basic head rebuild (valve job, guides, machining), and a couple of sensible while-you're-in-there's like the AOS. This is actually a pretty attractive option. Less than a rebuild with steel sleeves, and a little more than a used engine.

Quotes source post: 15831060

The Flat 6 program is simple. You send them the car. They evaluate the current engine. You choose from the available options. You send them a check. They build the engine. They put it on a engine dyno to begin break in. If it scatters at this point it's on their dime not yours. They road test it and break it in more. If it scatters at this point it's on their dime not yours. They ship the car back. You put a smile on your face and drive like the wind. Put that in the spreadsheet.

Quotes source post: 15834448

That is the PERFECT option for me...

Yes, it is perfect if you have $20K+ cash you are willing to spend on a car worth less than that to begin with. I�m not saying it is bad, since that�d be what I�d do too, if I loved the car, and was in that financial position when the time came, but it isn�t the answer for every situation. A perfect example is a roller I bought for a typical roller price - I wasn�t about to spend 3x that or more on a high end LN engine for a car like that. It wasn�t �a keeper� for me, so to spend over 30k on a car I could only sell for half of that didn�t make any sense.

Quotes source post: 15832315

Not if you live in Hawaii though!

Quotes source post: 15835043

That's why I said it is a perfect option for me...not a perfect option for everybody and I can't really say I love my car. It's just a toy and not an investment for the future. If I have to do this and I do, I want to do it right...once. To me this seems like the right option...for me.

Quotes source post: 15836315

100% concur. I bought my 02/98 build SPECIFICALLY to get the FSI build and have a forever car. I could have spent a little more to get a 996 Turbo, but it would have been a different set of issues to deal with and still has an e-throttle. I wanted the cable throttle and factory LSD with the earliest of water-cooled engines, and to have FSI build for a bullet-proof daily/track weapon that is a 'sleeper' compared to GT-3s. I know I'll be happy with one of the lightest/stiffest/fastest builds that can do so much and be super reliable after getting it back from FSI. For me, it is a better spend than any other model. It will be unique and fun. Which was why I bought it.

It is cool and awesome that you are getting a top of the line engine for your 996. I�m sure it will result in the best of all worlds with a nice, lightweight, analog car with amazing power delivery. That sounds like a great setup. I have to admit, I�m a bit jealous. Stepping away from how awesome that is for you two, I have to say that it is my impression (and it could be entirely incorrect) that many of the people that come to the 996 forum on Rennnlist to ask about options for a replacement engine for their blown up car aren�t in a hurry to pay more for an engine than they did for the vehicle. Lots of people *seem* to want to know the most economical way to get their car running again, or how to turn their roller into a driver. I am inclined to have patience for the others that aren�t in a socioeconomic situation where they can afford a LN engine, and are simply trying to find an economical way to stay in a 996.

Quotes source post: 15837023

Couldn't agree more. That is why it is nice that there are so many options and price points available to keep these cars on the road and being enjoyed.

Quotes source post: 15835043

I think the first question people need to ask themselves is if they are keeping the car or selling. What I mean is that it makes no sense to spend 20k on an engine when you can go out and buy another used 996 for 20k or less. The resell value certainly don't support this. However, if you pay 20k for your car and put 20k into an rebuild that increases your performance to 300 whp and reliability for along time to come? 40k put you in base 997 or high mileage 996 turbo but are you much worse off? I do agree that it make no sense to spend 3x of what you pay for in a car on an engine that you can't resell for half the price. However, if the objective is to keep the car, then 30k to 40k with a 3.8/4.0 996 that has all weak point addressed, does sounds good compare to the same price in a 997 that still have its weak points. Track car is a different issue though as track is a money pit in the first place and to run it economically, this model probably not a good idea.

Quotes source post: 15837256

BINGO!

I agree with a lot of what is said above. I guess one thing that I get stuck on is that a lot of this presumes that someone has $20+ that they are willing to throw into their ~$20k car. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right and I am the only one here who doesn't have an extra $20k+ that I am willing to throw at my weekend car. That's entirely possible, I guess. I didn't realize I was hanging out with so many high rollers.

definitely not a high roller here. That's why I say the first thing people need to decide is if they are keeping the car. 1. if you don't have 20k, the decision is simple, sell the roller. 2. if you do have 20k, do you buy another car? fun car? what can you get for 20k compares to your 996? 3. if you decide to spend 20k on another 996... why not rebuild the engine that address all the weak point and improve performance in the process. Just a thought process through some kind of decision making process.

Quotes source post: 15837566

Ha! I'm certainly NOT a high roller, I just budgeted a certain amount for a 911 done a way that I want it done. I'm not looking at it being 'worth' something post-rebuild as much as I will get intrinsic satisfaction about knowing what went into it. I also know that it will be much more sorted out so that I will have years of enjoyment. But I'm glad the OP put this comparison for our benefit and illustrate the options that are out there.

I'm with @cds72911 on this. Lot's of people are making this a binary decision where you have to spend $20k+ for a "bulletproof" motor and everything else is assumed to fail and be wasted money. In fact there are a range of options, and while all of them are expensive, I reject this notion that anything less than an FSI build is wasted money. All of the options for rebuilding and replacing an engine will last for some period of time and number of miles. All of them will will eventually fail, given the right (wrong?) circumstances. In my case, I have with 70k miles on it. It's cosmetically nice, but it has an accident on it's carfax. I'm not planning to keep it forever, but I think I might keep it for a 5 years, which will be about 10-12k miles of driving for me. I'm considering the shortblock route, which will cost around $12k, and while it might not last forever, I feel pretty confident it will last my ownership of the car and well into the next owner's usage. After all, there are plenty of owners with 50,60,100k+ miles on their original engines. Lots of people on this forum are looking for validation of their of their personal choices, but the thing is, there is no reasonable argument of having these cars at all. Sports cars are frivolous, and it's an inherently emotional choice to buy and fix one. Not to mention, many of us have lost way more than $20k on newer cars due to depreciation alone. Make choices that work for you. Let others make choices that work for them. And remember "Nobody with a good car needs to be justified."

Quotes source post: 15837769

^^ All perfectly valid points ^^ I hope I didn't put forth "this notion that anything less than an FSI build is wasted money" if I did, that wasn't my intention at all. I think what I was trying to say was - for my $$/circumstances FSI is my choice, and would be my recommendation for anyone in similar circumstances. My comments regarding your spreadsheet was that many of your columns or rows aren't directly comparable to each other - which kind of undermines the usefulness of a spreadsheet. In any case, I do appreciate the work you've put in and what you're trying to accomplish.

I would like to say I meant no offense to the OP or any other poster in this thread. Everyone is in different stages in their own life and as I said above I think it is great that there many choices. Make the choice that suits your situation from sell as a roller, to part out, to used motor, to...whatever you want, need, can afford. Enjoy life...it's to short to quarrel.

Quotes source post: 15838428

@wildbilly32 and @dporto we are all good 👊 I�m not offended by either of your responses, and I�m glad you have cars you can drive and enjoy. If I seemed a bit short, it�s just because I have lost my patience with the constant drumbeat of people pushing FSI. It�s undoubtedly a great option, and that point-of-view is VERY well represented on this forum. I�ve been trying to shed some light on the other options, because there�s a lot less info available for them and I want to keep space open for sharing other information and experiences in this discussion.

"If I seemed a bit short, it’s just because I have lost my patience with the constant drumbeat of people pushing FSI. It’s undoubtedly a great option, and that point-of-view is VERY well represented on this forum. I’ve been trying to shed some light on the other options, because there’s a lot less info available for them and I want to keep space open for sharing other information and experiences in this discussion." Nobody is "pushing FSI" (or LNE for that matter)... If you haven't figured it out yet, there's a reason that they're the preeminent M96 engine builders in the US. Sometimes it's difficult to see the forest through the trees. We're just trying to save you some time

I hope my post dont come across as pushing for FSI as I used the 20k in my comment. Just base on your spreadsheet which is amazing and great service to this community, they are all seem to approach that figure when it comes to full rebuilt. My car has a replaced short block from Porsche by PO after his AOS failed. I have no idea how much he paid for it but it lists head job, rebuild with OEM short block. It has the 997 style IMS (non-serviceable). It has now 14k miles on it and I hope to have many more in its life.

Quotes source post: 15835221

@808Bill Why is the shortblock not an option in Hawaii? I thought options that don't require you to ship your car to the continental US would be ideal. Side note: I'm headed to Hawaii for the first time in in June. Taking the family to Oahu for a week. Can't wait

Unless things have changed recently, pricing also varies greatly on the factory shortblocks. Some m-codes are subsidized (highly discounted), where others (m97.01, m97.21, etc) cost significantly more than any of the options listed, once you add in the labor and additional parts required to complete the shortblock to a longblock. At the end of the day, the factory shortblock option does not resolve cylinder or IMS issues. You get the same flawed components including the non-serviceable IMS bearing.

Quotes source post: 15839367

@rogazilla No, you're all good. Thank you for sharing about your factory short block rebuilt motor. I started a separate thread to discuss the short block option, and I'm going to drop your comment over there https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...lock-swap.html FWIW - the current price on the spreadsheet for rebuilt motors, fully installed, is ~$13k for the factory short block to to $22k for an FSI Street Performer, with a few options in the $15-16k range.

Latest updates to the spreadsheet comparison: Added pricing and parts details for the factory short block option Added additional parts rows for major new parts included with the short block (e.g. crank) Hid the FSI Stocker column, as per Jake's previous comment it seems like that option is no longer available Added a second tab to start tracking pricing on buying a used motor. It's incomplete I may delete it instead if I choose to go a different way with my engine. And so you don't have to scroll back to the top, here's the link again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

We are now booked through July 2020 and not accepting any new work until we get some of this off our plates. I started a wait list, to get on the wait list. When we finish a job, and ship a car, then I call the next guy on the list and see if he is ready to get started. Just an FYI.

Quotes source posts: 15839503, 15839503

Thanks Charles, that's good to know. It looks like the 3.4 short block is generally available for around $7k. And for folks joining this thread late, this comparison is focused on 996 engines, so as Charles points out, M97 engine owners might not find it particularly useful. That's a drawback for sure, but I wonder what you think is a reasonable number of trouble-free miles to expect from a factory block and larger single-row IMS bearing?

Quotes source post: 15839583

I'd just be sure to remove the grease seal on the IMS bearing before the flywheel goes on, so as to allow the engine oil to lubricate the bearing. That's going to maximize it's service life.

Quotes source post: 15839468

It's available here but cost a lot more. Oahu has been over run...Go to one of the outer islands if you can.

Quotes source post: 15839832

Maui! Go to Maui!! Maui number one...!

Quotes source post: 15840062

HaHa, that's what I tell them...If you love Kauai, tell them all to go to Maui!

Quotes source post: 15823929

Hey, that's my car Happy to start a thread if anyone's interested to feedback to the forum how this goes and what I end up having to go through to get this to work. And of course if it was worth it in the end.

Quotes source post: 15842245

Absolutely! I'm sure many would love to see this chronicled.

Quotes source post: 15842245

ALL OF MY YES.

Quotes source post: 15842245

Oh my yes. Even though I wouldn't consider an electric drivetrain for my 996, I find electric cars fascinating and would love to see every bit of your build.

Quotes source post: 15839753

Why does Porsche even install a grease seal on the bearing if it reduces service life?

Quotes source post: 15843679

It was a mistake.

Quotes source post: 15843915

Supposedly for the same reason they put a sealed 6204 bearing inside the manual gearbox, when in all prior models all grease seals were omitted, allowing for splash lubrication with the gear oil. These are known to fail as well from what I am told.

I got a DM on the topic of 9xx pricing, so I thought I would post more info here. It's important to note the 9xx listings on eBay are really for their rebuild service, which has some variable pricing. I called them up to get the scoop. The prices listed in the spreadsheet for 9xx motors reflect that my block is damaged and they can't take it as a core, so they have to sleeve it or replace it. Your situation may be different if your mode of failure is different. Here are my notes from the call: $8,250 + repairs +3500 Block charge for stocked 3.4 engine +5800 to resleeve up to 3.6 +400 to 3.8 Stock block includes installation if you ship the car to them 11,750 + shipping for installed stock motor 14,050 + shipping for resleeving up to 3.6L If you are close to Long Beach and your block is in usable shape, this is probably one of the cheapest options available. Better than a used engine for similar money.

Quotes source post: 15834448

And this comes from a purchaser of ours from 2008 that knows the differences, and has lived with them for more than a decade of first hand experiences. Hundreds of track hours have been spent with our engine propelling his 996, and he has owned two different combinations of my engines. That said, the point of "the engine costs more than the value of the car". This lies in the eyes of the beholder. For those who buy a cheap Porsche, they will soon learn that it is the most expensive Porsche they will ever own. For those that appreciate the car for what it is, the price is more than fair if they love the car. The very first question I ask anyone on the phone is: "Do you love this car?" If their reply is no, they'll likely sell the car broken (if they are smart) or they will be tricked by some cheap engine price, and therefore will spend even more money, on a car that they don't value with love. Today we hear all the time "I am exploring my options"... Well, we remember when there were no other options; you either bought our engine, or one from Porsche. There were no other options. We were literally laughed at for doing what we do back then, because a new engine was available from Porsche for 5-7K, 100% complete. Back then, we were still charging 16-20K for our engines, and maintained a 6 month backlog with no advertisement. Over the years almost every shop that has popped up to do this work is doing it as an ancillary objective to their normal shop activities. They may "work on race cars" or whatever, and then they offer engines as well. None of them have a single objective of specifically working with engines, and therefore they lack capability, resources, and dedication to this single objective. Also, most all of these people have attended one of my training classes, either hands- on, or with Worldpac Training Institute where I instructed from 2011-2015, and travelled North America instructing their M96 class with Tony Callas. That said, I know when those people attended the class, and what their internal experiences with these engines were at that time. This said, the amount of money that someone has doesn't make any difference to what they buy. We have customers save money for YEARS to finally be able to purchase an engine, and we work with them to balance their three equally spaced payments at a time that is favorable to their budget over the year- long period that we work with them. Not all of our purchasers are "loaded", many are just the opposite. They are hard working people who want to make sure they don't have to buy the same engine TWICE. They are smart people that understand that value, and cost are not related. They are people who have experienced the face of death with their engine, and don't want to go there again. Lastly, they are people who do their homework, and want to deal with an honest, upfront company that has earned their place in the industry. We make sure to give these people more than they pay for, so they tell their friends, and neighbors about us- so we don't have to advertise. This business is ran by the "Golden Rule", the rule that has been forgotten in modern business, especially those with fast talking sales people telling you what you want to hear. We are booked solid for completions through July 2020 and not accepting new work at this time. If you want to be added to the wait list, submit a ticket, and we will add you in the order that your request was received. This weekend I had to start a newsletter just for the guys on the wait list, to get onto the wait list- we will always keep you informed. Rather than going the route of every other provider, my experiences with the cars, and engines have driven my choices in how to offer what we create. We don't allow engines to be installed by other shops, we do not offer engines on a generic "exchange" program, and we take our time, and do each job like it's the most important job we will ever do. It is.

Jake—Is your calendar full for everything or just rebuilds? I’m planning on doing the Solution in the next year or so and you’re the closest authorized installer, I believe. TC

Quotes source post: 15853928

Yes, completely booked. I may do some IMS Solution work personally between classes at the Research/ Training facility, as long as the car isn't a tiptronic! Other than that, we're not taking on any IMS Solution, or repair work till further notice. I refuse to over- book things here, or add new employees to meet the demand, only to have them create problems because I can't spend the time necessary to train, and test them.

Quotes source post: 15853928

Right up the road from you... Till�s Import Car Clinic 1830 Boyscout Drive Fort Myers, FL 33907 Phone: [phone removed] Fax: [phone removed]

Dave at Tills is a great installer. He does a very good job of pre- qualification, and from time to time he does "down" jobs. That tells us that he is doing his part, and doing it right.

Quotes source post: 15854097

End of discussion! Thanks guys! TC

I know folks are interested in which way I decided to go with my car, and the answer is...the short block swap. I dropped my car off this afternoon and I'll get it back in a few weeks. My mechanic is going to document things as he goes and I'll start another thread to post pictures. Why did I go this way? Once you figure in head work, the short block swap ends up being around the same price as a cheap rebuild, but with more new parts. Additionally, I just couldn't get comfortable with the sleeving options available. This way, I can worry less about whether the block was done properly - it's from the factory. The short block comes with a two-year warranty (my mechanic is Porsche certified, a former dealer tech). Given that I'm only going to put on a couple thousand miles per year, I'm pretty confident the the factory block is going to give me many years of service. Additional things I'm having done in addition to the new short block: * Rebuilding the heads (machining, valve guides, pads, chains, springs etc.) * New clutch kit * New coolant tank * New AOS * New fuel filter * Swapping the muffler-delete exhaust for some Agency Power cans * Replacing a seat belt buckle with a bad sensor I'll report my results back here. I know lots of people would make a different choice. If anyone does go a different route, please post your experience here. If it's something not included in the spreadsheet, I will add it.

Remove the seal off the larger IMSB. Just a little added piece of mind with splash lubrication. .02

Quotes source post: 15878498

Yes, that�s what Charles suggested above, and that�s my plan.

A very interesting thread. Here at Hartech we do rebuild 1 engine/day. we handle the difficult situation of fitting our closed deck Nikasil alloy liners into blocks for other specialists (Worldwide), short blocks, whole engines and the much easier job of receiving the whole car though to rebuild (Videos available on our web site www,hartecg.org). The vast majority of rebuilds in which other specialists were involved go perfectly well (although if we ever do have problems it is when other specialists rebuild the engine (or fit it to a car). This is rare but we prefer to do it ourselves but that limits the number of owners we can provide our solutions to. We have been involved with Alpine for some time trying to provide our solutions over the pond - to supply this service to help everyone with different resources and requirements to rebuild the engine how they want it done (although we never compromise on issues we know are absolutely required). We also provide oversized engines for Boxster S 3.2 to 3.7, 996 3.4 to 3.7, 996/7 3.6 to 3.9, Cayman S 3.4 to 3.9 etc. Although extremely busy we carry out all work in house (our own precision machine shop and staff), our own rolling road etc. This Autumn we hope to be in a position to export exchange blocks for all variants. Among the special parts we manufacture are re-manufactured IMS with the larger later ball bearing for both new Hivo chain models and earlier Roller chain crankshafts and for racing - Accusump adaptors and deeper sumps with valved controls for surge,. Although not yet able to provide video productions of all this - we are very soon able to send by E-mail - both short and very long technical reports outlining what we do and why. If you want to be added to the list please for a report please send your request to [email removed] and head it with a choice of the following. The 4 main problems with this engine range "Short Version", or "long version", or "oversized engines". This includes seizing the 9A1 Gen 2 engine (even though it is extremely rare). Please do not request the long versions if you are not interested in the very technical details involved, long detailed technical explanations, test results, photos and conclusions that are thousands of words long. Baz

Quotes source post: 15878416

Really appreciate this kind of thread, thank you. Pure education!

Take too long? Cost too much? It sounds like going the way that you are is the quickest, and quite possibly along the same cost as the cheapest. Now, that being said you really need to question the warranty before you need it. In my direct experience, the warranty was only good if the work was done under the roof of a Porsche dealership, and it didn't matter if someone was previously a Porsche certified technician. I would not assume this at all, and I would get it in specific writing clearly saying that the installer and his facility are authorized by Porsche to carry out this work, while retaining the factory warranty. Some hassles now, may lead to a lot less hassle later.

Quotes source post: 15879857

The warranty for a factory reman shortblock is 2 years unlimited mileage. This does not cover labor if installed by anyone but a Porsche Certified repair facility. If installed by a Porsche Certified repair facility, parts and all labor is covered for 2 years unlimited mileage. As per 2019 US Porsche Warrany Manual page 25.. Replacement Parts and Accessories Limited Warranty This warranty is given to the owner of any Porsche replacement part or accessory distributed by PCNA and sold by any authorized Porsche dealer in the United States or Canada. Time and Mileage Period Parts supplied by PCNA and purchased from and installed by an authorized Porsche dealer at time of purchase are covered for two years, unlimited mileage from the date installed, unless the repaired or replaced part is covered under the New Car Limited Warranty. Any repaired or replaced parts are covered only for the remainder of this warranty. All parts replaced under this warranty become the property of PCNA. Warranty Coverage PCNA will arrange for repair or replacement using new or remanufactured parts distributed by PCNA, at its sole option, any part covered under this warranty that is defective in material or workmanship under normal use. Parts that were sold and installed by an authorized Porsche dealer will be repaired or replaced without charge either for parts or labor. If installed by anyone else, the cost of the replacement parts or accessories will be borne by PCNA (even in the case of emergency repair), but labor charges will be your responsibility. All parts supplied under this warranty will be supplied by PCNA and all parts replaced become the property of PCNA. Your Responsibility for Normal Vehicle Use Your Owner�s Manual (which includes specific recommendations against using your car in certain ways) was written with the assumption that you will use your car only in ways for which it was designed: � To carry passengers and cargo within specified load limits. (The load limits are specified on labels located in different places depending on your model Porsche. Your Owner�s Manual gives the locations.) � To be driven on reasonable road surfaces within legal speed limits. Porsche Guidelines specify reasonable mileage to be at least 15 miles / 24 kilometers per day or 6000 miles / 9600 kilometers per rolling 12 months. � If you drive less than the above-mentioned limits, or in the event of prolonged storage, contact your local authorized Porsche dealer for instructions. (Note: A battery maintainer is available at your local authorized Porsche dealer. It must be used to maintain your vehicle�s battery state of charge if your vehicle will not be used for several days.) � To be run on unleaded gasoline with the recommended octane rating, or Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), depending upon the vehicle's powertrain, as specified in the Owner�s Manual. � To be properly maintained according to the Maintenance Schedule in the Maintenance Booklet and Car Care Instructions in your Owner�s Manual. You must keep the receipts as proof of maintenance. You are responsible for presenting your Porsche vehicle to an authorized Porsche dealer as soon as a problem exists. Failure to do so could result in consequential damage

Yep.. Read that carefully.

Quotes source post: 15880870

I did, reads as good or better than anybodys warranty. I'm not sure what you're seeing? Having worked for Porsche for over a decade before I retired I can say they will honor the warranty as written.

Quotes source post: 15881939

@Porschetech3 Agreed. It looks reasonable to me. Not sure why Jake is sowing distrust here, except that the longer warranty from Porsche makes the FSI warranty offering look worse by comparison. I do need to inquire about the minimum mileage requirements, as I don�t plan to do 6k miles per year. I will change the oil a couple times a year and I have a battery tender. Do you know what else is expected?

Maybe labor warranty? Would Porsche consider anybody other than a dealership, certified?

Quotes source post: 15882458

Labor warranty is from the shop. Part warranty is from Porsche. I�m aware of what I�m getting.

I think his point may be that the two year parts warranty is only if the part is installed by an authorized Porsche dealer. "Parts supplied by PCNA and purchased from and installed by an authorized Porsche dealer at time of purchase"

Quotes source post: 15882922

Read the next sentence: �If installed by anyone else, the cost of the replacement parts or accessories will be borne by PCNA (even in the case of emergency repair), but labor charges will be your responsibility .� This sentence backs up Porschetech�s statement.

Quotes source post: 15882927

Agreed, I read the cost of part being covered by Porsche, and the labor by you if not done by a dealer. But I think that is specific to the clause about repair and replacement, not the warranty coverage. I'm not a lawyer though. One of you who is should tell us what this means in practice.

Quotes source post: 15880641

The factory shortblock has always been an attractive option for folks, but my question is... aside from the M97 bearing, does it contain all the known issues associated with these engines? e.g. Lokasil bores, singular piston offset for both banks, etc.

Quotes source post: 15883053

@NuttyProfessor It addresses some issues, but not others. However, most cars run for a very long time without any of the major issues. So, someone who isn't going to put a ton of miles on the car can look at this in one of two ways: 1. It's another roll of the dice in a game where the odds are very much in your favor. 2. It resets the clock for an "inevitable" failure by many years. Both of those are fine bets in my case. I can get this done at a fraction of the cost of an expensive rebuild that corrects every design flaw in the motor, and I'll still have the overwhelmingly good chance of driving trouble-free for the next decade.

OP: Looks like the shop that will do the shortblock is also having the heads done. I'd think the M96 heads are somewhat complicated that some American muscle machine shops find too intricate to work on. FSI sends heads to a world class shop that knows M96 heads better than most in the US. I just had a Passat 1.8T 4 cyl head reworked and I spent $1500 or thereabouts. Did you estimate the head work in your short block estimate, as I don't know how a shop would do that part alone for under $3000 for the machine shop work alone. I'm definitely not an expert and have not shopped around. I did take my Passat 1.8T head to a muscle car shop and they were amazing, but they did comment on how German cars have a lot of tiny spaces that make work more challenging. Thank you for the informative thread!

Quotes source post: 15882441

The minimum mileage requirement really apply's to the Porsche replacement battery. We had customers who would (knowingly) not drive their cars routinely or put a battery maintainer on it and the battery would fail after 18 months and would require to be replaced again. The requirement to drive at least 15 miles per day or 6k miles per year is to keep the battery charged, or buy the Porsche battery maintainer and use it, then if battery fails bring in the car and charger and have the battery maintainer checked along with the charging system. Other things to consider when car is stored is overinflate tires (to keep from flat spoting), and add fuel stabilizer. You should check with your local Porsche dealer for any other requirements besides the routine maintenance described in the owners manual. Most Porsche owners do the maintenance more often than required.

Quotes source post: 15879281

@bazhart Thanks for stopping by the thread. I've learned a ton from the things you've written on your website and on other forums. One of the main reasons I started this thread is so many of my searches lead back to Hartech, and I would get excited for a moment only to realize it's UK-only. As I stated in the first post, I wanted to collect rebuild options for the US in 2019. There seems to be a market in the US for the Hartech offering. I hope you find a way to do business here. Pop back in this thread once you have blocks available for export, and we can add Hartech to the comparison spreadsheet.

Quotes source post: 15884088

@sequel95 Yes, the short block estimate in the spreadsheet includes headwork. The cost is comparable to the quote from EBS Racing. My heads will go to a machine shop in near Chicago that specializes in European cars, including Lotus, Ferrari, and work for a high-volume Porsche indy shop. I'm not sure why your VW head cost so much...was it a high performance port and polish job? I'm not doing that stuff - just machining surfaces flat, replacing valve seats and other worn parts, and a valve job.

Quotes source post: 15884288

@Porschetech3 That's helpful background info, and I'm already on top of all the things you recommend for storage. Thanks for all your input on this thread. I appreciate it.

Why would anyone pick the RND option for $20k when the FSI is $22k? Ignoring shipping then the engines cost the same, unless you install the engine your self. Just asking, I am sure the RND is great.

Quotes source post: 15888462

Because the RND engine is basically "off the shelf" - i.e. no to short wait time... FSI is anywhere from 6 mos. - 1 year depending on how busy they happen to be...

Quotes source post: 15888513

Plus, if you have your original block, the FSI build will still qualify for a COA (I think), if that is something in which you're interested.

Quotes source post: 15888462

I think the primary reason is wait time. As Jake stated above, FSI is booked solid for the next year and then there is a waiting list after that. That might be OK if you're doing an elective rebuild for an upgrade. However, if your car is currently not drivable, FSI isn't really a viable option. Other reasons you might choose RND: you want to keep your car the stock displacement for the sake of originality, or you and Jake Raby don't think you would enjoy working together.

I don't know about everyone else but when I look at a 996 I have trouble determining if the engine is 3.6l or 3.8l on the inside. I believe the racing term is "stock appearing". I have a 2005 C4S, one 728 produced, and am having a 3.8 installed. I didn't go for a more aggressive build as it would require freer flowing exhaust and a 997 intake. I would have loved it but preferred to keep the car "stock appearing." To each their own...

Time makes the biggest impact on the decision between my engine, and anything else. That said, 20k really doesn�t buy an engine here, anymore. Considering that we are now to November 2020 with engines that are proposed, and underway, I have had to query my suppliers and Mfrs to make sure that the prices will remain the same so far out. They are not, so prices are going up for those transitioning from the wait list, into the program moving forward. We make the final invoice at the onset of the project, so being so far out takes a lot of preparation. This year I had 8 engines �in stock� as Stage 1 and Stage 2 levels of preparation. None of these were advertised, and all sold in a 4 week period, as soon as spring hit. Each year over the winter I personally work over time to build a few �on- demand� engines for stock, and they always go fast to those who don�t care to lose their original engine numbers.

Quotes source post: 15889491

Just my personal opinion...it is/would be worth the wait.

Quotes source post: 15889768

I figured this would be a good time to post part 1 of the video series that I will be doing with your 996. We will add parts to this as the build progresses, to show people what someone endures when they have bore scoring, and what we do to bring life back to the car, and make it so much better. You can really hear the noise with this one when I back the car up, toward the camera. I shot this with an iPhone 10, and thats just the microphone from the phone picking the noise up that well... Yeah, �sounds like a lifter�...... NO, its NOT! As we tear down the engine, and it moves through the processes, I�ll post more parts of this adventure, then once complete we will compile all the parts, and make that the volume 8 of the �Focus on Bore Scoring� series. Here we go... Enjoy! You Tube

Excellent series! Billy you and your 996 are going to be famous...

Wow Bill. You're famous!

Quotes source post: 15890234

Doesn't sound like a lifter to me because I've been reading your information on this subject since 2014!

Quotes source posts: 15890427, 15890495

Excellent series indeed. My car is the subject of a rebuild documentation which is cool. Me famous?...hardly. I just feel fortunate and grateful to be able to send my car to the world's premier Porsche engine guy.

Quotes source post: 15890567

OK - can we say your car is famous? That is a great video. I've heard that sound before. Not on my Porsche, thankfully. That is a distinctive sound.

Quotes source post: 15890577

Ok sure...famous for developing bore scoring! Actually, it will be fun to have to the vids for the future and more fun to have the Jake engine.

Quotes source post: 15890588

I decided to use your car for this, because it is such an epic case.. It is the perfect poster child for this issue, and will help put things into perspective for those who have the same symptoms, which lead to the same diagnoses. Awareness that this sound is NOT a �lifter noise� is the key to keep people from wasting money on mis- diagnosed cases. Last week a 991 owner with bore scoring had a dealer diagnose the issue.. �You need lifters�. The lifter job was done, at a cost of 8,000 bucks. No dice, noise was still there.... Now they are attempting to change the exhaust lifters, still hopelessly chasing the wrong issue. More wasted money will result.

Quotes source post: 15890588

Famous as a movie star. Maybe it will get a star on the walk of fame. Exactly. You'll have some great show-and-tell material...

Quotes source post: 15890687

Looks like "the dealer" needs to read/watch some of your information. "More wasted money" is an under-statement!!! $8,000 and climbing!!!! Honestly, a couple of years after buying the car I heard the start of the "noise" and pretty much knew what is was from reading your information. I was just in denial!

Quotes source post: 15801159

OP, did you ever move forward with any decision or action? Sorry if I missed a post in this 13-page thread. It�s a great thread BTW.

Quotes source post: 17155812

@Mike Murphy I decided to go with the factory short block option. Installed by a Porsche specialist indie shop by a Porsche certified tech. This enabled me to address all the major failure points for the lowest cost. While the motor was out, I also replaced the clutch, AOS, and coolant tank, and had the heads refinished. Total cost was around $15k. I�ve had it for a little over a year and about 2000 miles. So far, so good, but I have it in the shop now for a vacuum leak from the oil filler tube. If I were to do it again, I would replace the oil filler and fuel injectors while the engine was out. I should post this update to the top of the thread. I�m also trying to take some of what I�ve learned and post it to the web in a more accessible format. I have posted a draft engine rebuild guide at https://wassergekuhlt.online/guides/...rebuild-guide/

This is a great thread and I appreciate all the work wsrgklt put into it... right on dude !

Quotes source post: 17157286

+1! thanks wsrgklt. I�m am surprised how close in price most of these options are. In for a penny, in for a pound in a lot of cases. My car needs �only� tensioner pads, which requires splitting the case. So I�m $5k into a rebuild already, what�s another $15k.

Balancing the reciprocating parts is very benificial for smoothness,power,& longevity I never build a engine without having everything balanced.

Quotes source post: 17157637

Very true. Why do the heads, IMS, new bearings, new chains, etc and not spend a couple hundred more to balance the rotating sticks and club?

^^^ This is one of the big benefits to having a truly experienced engine builder with a proper shop set-up build your engine. This isn't to say you can't do this stuff DIY but it really does create challenges if you don't have a truly professional set-up, and the experience(s) with every step of the build process. The FSI engine build series is certainly a big help, but it doesn't get you the shop or tools...

Bringing this thread back up - I think good to refresh the info and I wanted to add some info I got from a vendor that does LS swaps. New LS3 530HP Turn Key swap. Full factory function - cluster, AC. 30 month / 50K Mile warranty Dyno tuned and tested using HP tuners on GM E38 Engine ECU $30K Go from the LS3 to an LS7 with 625HP for $35K. These are new crate engines from Blueprint. Expect from a DIY - $15K minus the engine from the vendor I spoke to. So, if you were to start off with a used motor - the cost would be considerably less that the new engine turn key solutions I refer to above. If anyone wants the vendor info, feel free to shoot me a PM. They were referred to me by the President of an aftermarket components company that makes very high end parts. Take it FWIW.

Dang! Gotta admit, turnkey for $30k sounds great. Buy a roller and you have a Turbo performance for less.

Quotes source post: 17405089

If your motor is running when you pull it out - sell it and recoup...maybe $6-10K of that price. Gets you in the door there for a comparable M96 rebuild investment cost wise. I think it's something worth considering for the huge performance, and warranty coverage. Maybe some peace of mind that you don't have to worry about some of the inherent M96 issues that remain even after you have spent $20K+ on a rebuild...

Any idea what the weight difference is between the flat six and Gm engines?

Quotes source post: 17405240

I think the gm was around 60lbs more

Quotes source post: 17405240

I have read various accounts that the M96 W/Exhaust is around 450 LBS. If you say the exhaust weighs about 50 LBS and could be used on both engines, call it about 400 LBS. An LS3 with accesories is 418 LBS https://www.chevyhardcore.com/featur...-dyno-results/ GM 6.2-liter LS3 V8: Length: 28.75 inches Height: 28.25 inches Width: 24.75 inches Weight: 418 pounds (with accessories)

Quotes source post: 17405474

My question is: where is the weight located in each engine? It seems illogical to me that a V8 engine weight is as low as an opposed 6. I guess if you just want a drag car ok, but I'll pass. I didn't spend anywhere near $30k, have an unmolested car that still handles as it should with more HP and torque than factory. I prefer not to own a Frankencar. To each their own...

Quotes source post: 17405575

You don't have an unmolested car - you have one with a rebuilt motor, which is great, not a negative, a positive. A "molested" 996 - to use your term - can be a MUCH better 996 than came from the factory I don't know what a Frankencar is - it is not a stretch though to think that a 996, with a properly executed LS will outperform the M96 in EVERY measurable performance, reliability and cost of ownership metric. The drag car thing is complete bull ****..you have no idea how the car would handle with an LS. I would hazard a guess...my car with an LS would absolutely smoke your car with your M96 on any track or road in America - straight, road course, rally or hill climb. And thats not to say that the swap is purely for performance, its to highlight a point - the "if you want a drag car" statement is silly. How much did you spend, ballpark would be fine and does the engine builder approve of your engine for track use ? What is the rated HP/TQ and did the builder provide a dyno sheet to backup the claims ? Does the warranty match the 30 month / 50K mile you get on say a 530HP Blueprint engines LS3 ?

Sounds like the weight gain is inconsequential considering the power gain. Someone's doing one of these locally, I've only seen the photos. Now that I've gotten the second shot, it's time to introduce myself and see if I can get a look at how it's going.

The only thing I don't like about the LS swap is the idea of cutting the car. When someone develops a electric crate motor drop-in for the 996, they can have all my money.

Quotes source post: 17405601

Apparently you missed the part where I said "To each their own..." I did not intend this to be a "my car is faster than your car" issue. I outgrew that in high school. You did not answer the question of how high up is the weight of a V8 in a 996 compared to stock and what, if any, consequences this might present in handling. Keep in mind the old saying "the guy/gal who is quickest through the corner is quickest down the straight." I could care less if an LS 996 would out run my car on a track. If I wanted to race again I would buy a "proper" race car. As for the rest of your questions: #1: A reasonable amount to me #2: Not a track car so I don't care(see above) #3: Plenty of HP/TQ #4: Yes #5: Don't care Calm down. I was not attacking nor besmirching your previous post. In fact I considered an LS conversion until I realized the consequences/costs of such a modification.

Quotes source posts: 17406557, 17405601, 17406557, 17406557, 17406557, 17405601, 17406557, 17405601, 17406557, 17405601, 17406557, 17405601, 17406557, 17405601, 17406557

As I said and can be see above... reference was to your drag car portrait of an LS swapped car... Dont know... Well, some people like to take their 996�s to the track for DE days (Not racing)... An engine that can run at the track (even stock M96) may be important to some. Cool I will infer this as a no. ? Great ! OK.

Like I said to each their own...

Quotes source post: 17406407

That was one thing that bothers me...the other is inoperable gauges, power steering, AC, TX emission issues. This is one of the things making me pause my plan to LS swap another vehicle. Right now I just don't have the time required to solve these known issues. Engine swaps often fail/stall because of all the unknowns. I'll drive my gas powered 996 until I die, or I can't purchase fuel. I wouldn't mind eventually having an electric car for local daily driving, but it sure as h#(( won't be my 996.

Quotes source post: 17407323

Tex... I know your situated but as an FYI. AC, CEL, gauges (CAN Comms) are good with the setup I mention, PS is a conversion to electric (same as Cup), which I think would be a worthy change on an M96 FWIW.

I have a Chevy Volt for daily driver, over 90k miles on it. I have a 996 4s stock 6 speed for fun sprints on back roads and other fun trips. I have a 997.2 4s with Jake's 4.0L Stage II when I want to be obnoxiously loud and drive faster than you should even think about going. It will see the track eventually.

There is a guy Chavis (sp) performance has done several LS swaps and has a wire harness to hook up and all the gauges and AC work. The price is about the same, looking at a year long wait. To each their own.

Quotes source post: 17407355

That's good that all of that is solved. The vehicle I'm considering swapping is pre-OBDII and not nearly as developed. Seem like the power steering is relatively easy to resolve, but I've yet to find someone who has solved gauges and AC. I assume I can figure out AC myself. (using vintage air or similar) But it would be nice if someone had proved it before I get started. But gauges may require replacing the dash pod. Texas emissions are a non-issue since it is (well over) over 25 years old. This is likely a "when I retire" project, which is but a few years away.

Gents, what this invaluable thread shows us is that we have options. Because eventually we will need one of them. I suspect with 996 prices going up rather substantially, we may have even more options. Can't wait until the kids are off the payroll...

I wonder if the PS can be turned off? I saw a Turbo S or GT LS swap YouTube where the PS was on a switch. So super light steering for low speeds, around town, parking, then you could turn it off at speed, which I bet might feel pretty great if it�s done the right way.

Quotes source post: 17407701

Yup... I have a friend with a 6Cup with the electric PS, he leaves it on around paddock and kills it when on track.

hey guys, in speaking w/ jason outside of RL this past week and being made aware of this thread feel it�s a good time to introduce myself my name�s tyler and am the owner of chavis performance & engineering (cpe). while i don�t force our work on anyone as i�m a firm believer of �to each their own� feel that the LS conversion has unfortunately received a bad wrap thanks to the likes of �hoovie�s garage�. while he makes for great entertainment while eating my morning breakfast, feel his take on the whole conversion is rather lackluster and somewhat misleading especially considering the fact that he opted for a junkyard ls2, w/ no baffling/oil control, and raced it around the track w/ a sump facing the wrong way (under acceleration oil literally sloshes away from the pickup when using a standard corvette/fbody oil pan!) i have been performing these conversions on 996/997 cars since �17 and can say unequivocally that they perform just as well (if not better) than their factory counterparts especially when setup correctly w/ a properly baffled/trap door front sump pan (this allows oil to pour into such/around the pickup under acceleration), a proper set of coilovers/dialed in suspension, and of course almost double the power of the factory H6! pair that w/ the peace of mind only found in a 30mo/50k mile warranty and you have quite the argument. aside from all the technical data i can provide we have these cars running strictly off the gm e38 pcm w/ 100% factory functionality and no hacking of the factory wiring to the point where if you decided an LS isn�t for you (which you wouldn�t LOL) you can simply revert back to your 3.4/3.6/3.8 i�m here to answer any questions you may have and to bust a few myths! here�s a few cars we�ve done ...

Quotes source post: 15890687

I started a thread on my 3/98 996 engine ticking noise. Anyway after Tex squirrel ran all the durametric stuff and everything being excellent, no oil consumption no smoke or soot. Squirrel video the noise and most people said bore scoring piston slap. Anyway Porsche Tech 3 said your car has lokasil 1 which is a lot better than latter models. I seen those noises before from cats and also carbon deposits. Anyway 2 weeks ago Tex Squirrel help me put CRC GDI after the air box thru the boot towards the Trottle while I tried best to keep rpms at 2,000. I let the car sit for about 1.5 hours)instructions called for 1 hour soak time. Anyway after driving the car for 30 minutes 10 of which need to be highway speed, it was done, Anyway PorsheTech had suggested Seafoam, I chose CRC because I have a ton of experience with their products and also the straw is a lot beefier in the CRC, both products same price. I have driven the car for about 200 miles now thanks to the Porsche gods and PorscheTech3 no ticking noise. I can�t wait to see squirrel again so we can do a short video. Can you guys Imagine how much money someone could have charge for fixing this. Hell they could have keep the car in shop for a week and then say $4,000. If you are hearing the noise and don�t have any of the other symptoms go ahead and spend the $10 for the CRC. Or also make sure as PorscheTech 3 says check the cats.

Quotes source post: 17408726

Tyler and Jason, thanks for the info. I am a firm believer in the more options the better depending on what you want for your 996. There is a rather fascinating development in the 996 market that is taking shape before our very eyes. With used 996 prices going up dramatically it's inevitable that 996 owners will shift their mindset from selling their car as a roller when the engine goes, to instead, rebuilding or replacing their engine. In essence the economic decision becomes more favorable.

Quotes source post: 17407375

if you think that 4.0 is fast you should have driven my HPA twin turbo 04 R32. When I was looking for my 996, I drove a C4s and kept trying to compare to the R32, I sold the R32 back in 2013. I know this is a Porsche thread and I love my 3/98 coupe but honestly I prefer the r32 to the C4s. Those were my fast and the furious days, my slow car was the shark or as the wife called it the pimp mobile 1985 M635CSI , it had a $3,000 paint job. The R32 was the rocket car.

Quotes source post: 17408771

You Tube

What I�d like to know is what part of the most recent trend of this thread that was awoken from the dead has to do with any engine conversion? This was a thread that was started with the intention of comparing rebuild options of the original M9X engine. If someone wishes to converse about the LS, might I suggest a new thread? I also might suggest that those with commercial intent become PAID supporters of Rennlist. We have to pay a lot of money to be a member of this community, just so we can come here to answer questions, and give free advice. We�ve been doing this for years, and were not given an option.

Quotes source posts: 17408851, 15820628, 15821417, 15822655, 15822732, 15823373, 15823751, 15823768, 15823852, 15823929

05/05/2019 - Nothing new for the thread with regards to the discussion...

True, I guess after 2 years I forgot that someone took the thread way off topic in the beginning.

Since I haven't seen the spreadsheet I don't know if 9XX was included in the analysis. I have spoken with Jason at 9XX and he seems knowledgeable and has given me some good advice. I have also meet two guys that went with this option and one of the guys already has 26,000 on the engine no concerns. Both of these like the flexibility that 9XX offers. Yes I also met a guy that has I believe 4.0 from FSI , the engine looks real cool in his car because the car is black and has the red details. I saw him at the club concourse de elegance show. He was really satisfied with the engine. The car also has some FSI badging. Since now I don't have to worry about a rebuilt ill continue learning, enjoying trips to triple digits and maybe I buy a convertible.

Quotes source post: 17408928

That�s my R40 996. It sold on the private market earlier this year. The car is one of a kind.

Quotes source post: 17408936

Jake you should buy this car in the photo at bring a trailer. Add Ruf wheels to go with the bumper and side skirts and a one of a kind engine build would look cool with all the red accents and you have your perfect 99 996.1 cable throttle car. Then you can use it as a demo for your craftsmanship. Anyway I�m doing shrimp, sausage, chicken gumbo and off course it�s already 5 o clock ⏰ drinking time somewhere in the world. 16-20 Texas gulf shrimp White with gray 99, with 107,000 miles and original IMS bearing. It�s not Miller time. It�s IPA time. Yes Original 2000 Weber silver, best $400 I ever spent in my life.

Quotes source post: 17408936

@3/98 911 coupe , was that local? If so, I hope I run into them sometime, I'd like to see an R40 in person!

Quotes source post: 17409121

I can see 1 reason why Jake wouldn't want it...the front bumper. Second & third reasons are it looks like it has a modified suspension and larger wheels. Jake doesn't do Demo cars...no need to. Something inside of me says that "Ruf-style" ain't Jake's style.

Quotes source post: 17409121

So far 2-3 people have sent me that car, suggesting that I buy it. I am currently in Porsche selling mode, and only have 3 left, of the 7 that I had this time last year. Also, never buy a Porsche that runs. There's no reason. One day a white 99 C2 with a gray interior will find me with a broken engine. In the mean time my 1992 MB 500E will remain my newest car in the fleet, and I drive it everyday. I sold the black R40 car without it ever being listed, and the same goes with all my other Porsche cars. @TexSquirrel Yes, that front bumper would immediately go into the garbage, or get crushed with a tank. That's one of the worst ones on the market, and its a cracked head waiting to happen!

Quotes source post: 17408726

I want it! Maybe the LS option can be added to the spreadsheet? Mind you, are the costs in the spreadsheet still more or less the same today? I've seen costs go up in the past year.

Quotes source post: 17409134

I never had Jake scale but when I was doing euro Bemmers i would never hesitate letting people drive my M635CSI or my 745i got me a lot of additional business. The proof is in the pudding. Specially if they had just bought their cars with running issues and then mine were just as mechanically sound as possible with a few tricks and upgrades. If you had ever been to a tunner shop with high end mods they all have demos. Case in point HPA.

Quotes source post: 17409143

. What other 3 p cars you want to sell???

Quotes source post: 17409129

The owner said he had a two hour drive To Kemah. We may see him again in Club get togethers. At the time I didn�t knew this much about Jake and FSI as I know now.

Quotes source posts: 17408887, 17408936, 17409121, 17409129, 17409134, 17409143, 17409171, 17409187, 17409197

I know.... threads that go way, way.... way off topic are a pain in the ***** to wade through huh...

Quotes source post: 17409187

-1964 356C Outlaw (my T4 engine, making g 227HP) -1995 993 with my R39 engine (I have 3 people fighting over this one already) -1988 Carrera (all stock G50 high mileage car. I may keep it and make a Safari from it)

+1!

These are all so cool. Not trying to give you any extra work, but a video on these - show and tell kind of thing - would be cool.

Quotes source post: 17409591

Yeah.. Bobby tries to get me to shoot videos like this all the time for the Rennvision channel. To me they are all just cars. After all these years I don't even consider Porsche cars to be special. Never thought I'd ever say that.

Quotes source post: 17408726

FWIW I've been on this forum for about a year and a half and I have seen almost all positive comments about LS swaps. There was a thread a few months ago from a guy starting his LS project and a lot of people were very interested in it.

Quotes source post: 17409666

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/640x640/ac253237_75a2_4490_8b8c_80ded31f00ec_1cd0addf935e7bd4e2dccabbe49a1436cbb44848.gif

Quotes source post: 17409276

You have the right property for one of those. I can just imagine the Facebook posts with Ava driving that across the same area as her ATV! ...of course at higher speeds.

Quotes source post: 17409214

This one went off topic S didn't it?

That underline bold thing... I got it Ya know. It�s a little weird - not to be a conspiracy theorist or anything. But the LS talk way back 2 years ago, almost to the day, didn�t make anyone say boo. But, when it�s detailed - with pricing, specific output, warranty, factory functionality... Now it�s OT and should be removed from a thread that I thought, was of the intent to highlight - with actual numbers and data someone�s options should they need an engine. I sent the OP a PM, told him if he wants me to take the LS swap stuff down because it was not inline with his intentions when he created the thread, I�m happy to do so... too much good work he did to have the thread not in-line with his intent. The ****ing barbecue, R32�s, selling old cars, thinking about selling old cars and if we think porsches are special or not is noise and adds absolutely no value for someone wondering what to do after their ****ing engine blew up or worried about what they will do if their engine blows up. if the OP thinks the LS talk is in the same category as that bull ****, I�ll pull my posts in a heart beat.

Kinda funny how things don't always go the way we think they should. Especially on an open forum. Go figure...

Quotes source post: 17410101

I wish more people would do LS swaps. We need their core engines to use for reconstructions. We really need M97.01 and M96.05 cores, just to rob some parts from, so maybe those guys will flock to the Bowtie alternative as fast as possible. None of this is new, people were installing Chevy engines in 914s 40 years ago, it's been done to 944s, 928s, and even aircooled 911s. We can only recreate around 1% of the M9X engines ever produced, so even if 50% of the people that own these cars swapped them to an LS, I still wouldn't give a damn. What I do care about is the same rules applying to everyone, and if someone is here for commercial reasons, they need to pay to play just like we do, and just like every other commercial user here is required to do. We didn't have a choice, and neither should they. Convince me otherwise. Here's my "conversion"... It's a Chevy powered Ford.

I always though of a base 911 as a hell of a Chevy. The GT cars, though, are kinda special.

Quotes source post: 17410241

I've owned a Porsche everyday of my life since the age of 13, and have worked with them almost everyday since then. Those decades of exposure just makes them seem very normal, no matter how special, or exotic they may really be to others.Next week I'll be picking up the engine for a Gmund Coupe, which is priceless, and I'll one restoring it back to it's original character over a couple of years. I guess I've just gotten so used to dealing with the stuff, that its another day at the office. That's why I have sold, or I am selling all my Porsches except my 912E. I prefer historical military vehicles, both Allied, and Axis. The vehicles that have more character, and value if they have bullet holes in them.

At least we have some options and pretty decent aftermarket support for these. As for armor, I have a craving for some Cold War era Soviet stuff, not that I could afford it, but a T55 or BTR might be nice.

Quotes source post: 17411193

Jake, just make sure to give us guys with kids still on the payroll a heads up in advance when you plan on getting out of the engine building business. Don't want to wake up and find out some day that you are only working on tanks. While I would love a tank, I'd rather have an extra 80 hp on my 996.

Quotes source post: 17411250

Nope, their won't be any advanced notice.. It'll instantly happen, but anyone who is engaged/ committed with us at the time will still end up dealing with me until I am done. The rest will be out of luck once I tag the line. This is why dreamers that want to wait for years to buy really shouldn't. I am always just one ******* away from cutting the line! Just one! Who knows where I'll end up.. People tell me that I should save the place for my daughter, and while she'd probably be as good as I am at the technical side, I'd hate to punish her into dealing with the human (purchaser) elements associated with what I've created. She'd be better to assume my wife's business, and deal in accounting. Ok, that's enough.. We are going WAYY off topic now. I'm done. :-)

Quotes source post: 17411498

How is the Bore development coming along?

It's done for the M9X. It's all about just racking up miles now. All the issues of the first 3 generations of testing have been eliminated, and Lake is driving one of the test cars 1,000 miles or so per week with flawless results, and the cleanest oil samples ever, along with the lowest oil consumption we've ever seen from any M9X. Now we just wait, while I finish developing it for the 9a1 and Aircooled engines. Hell, we're even doing an LS with SUMEBore...

Good to hear!

Great update and good to see progress! Reading the previous posts (in another thread) it sounded like the development was in very early stages just a few months ago and will take years with no plans of bringing it to market any time soon. Is the goal to still hit 100k miles of driving on the road for testing purposes? Is the end game here to squirrel this away until Nickasil can't be used any longer bc environmentalists? This just leaves me with some questions given the above comments of cutting the cord on working on M9X engines at will. Could be next year or in 10 I guess. It will be good to keep this thread updated for other options, for the dreamers, if anything. You Tube

LOL - still have my Weber Genesis Silver from 2001 - except I'm in Canada, so it's the best $800 spent. Still have the orginal stainless steel grilles. The light in the handle broke one winter (C-cell batteries...not gonna last) and I replaced the igniter about 10 years ago. That's it.

We had been working on this, and building other test engines for 18 months before we said anything about it. We'd already had 2 efforts fail with the M9X testing before anyone on the outside knew what was being done. We didn't mention anything until we saw the first positive experience, and solved all the prior issues. There's still no plans to bring it to market anytime soon. I have a handful of really good, long time customers who are being offered engines using it, and a couple have bit the hook already. Basically, but there's always the possibility that it will be offered alongside Nikisil, if the environmentalists don't act as fast as we expect they will. It will be a lot more expensive unless the volume goes up beyond Nikisil. The cord can be cut any time, not just with the M9X, but any Porsche engine... I have been vetting people even harder than ever before in hopes that I will avoid the one ******* that reminds me that I'm wasting my life dealing with people. It'll likely happen as the employees who have worked for me for the last 20 years begin to retire.

Do any of the engine providers have a core charge? I heard if purchasing long block from Porsche it is $8000 core charge on top of listed price.

Quotes source post: 17423185

Anyone doing mass production will have a core charge. The reason why is they keep engines built, ready for immediate sale. They will then depend on your "rebuildable core" to rebuild, and put back on their shelf to keep the circle of generic production going. I see a lot of people get caught in a spider web with this, no matter who they are dealing with when it comes to a pre- built engine that is ready to sell. The core charge can be anywhere between 3-25K depending on the engine, and the core deposit funds are added on top of the invoice with the understanding that their core engine will be torn down, inspected, and then based on a menu of costs for each part that is "bad" the remainder of funds will then be credited back to the buyer. The issue is, at this point the seller already has the funds, and they want to give back the minimum of those funds. Since the requirements that are set forth to define the "rebuildable core" are not shared up front, each part is looked at closely, and many (or all in some cases) are deemed unusable. In a lot of cases hardly any of the core money is refunded. If the company you are buying the engine from is based in Europe, things are further complicated, as any argument you have with them will end with further complications in regard to logistics, if you have a disagreement about what was not usable. They may charge you to dispose of the components, on top of you losing the core deposit funds. This can be a slippery slope for people that enter into agreements that are open ended when it comes to what defines core assessments, and the charges they are associated with. I know one purchaser who ended up spending 56K for an engine that had a 25K price tag, all because of core assessments. This is one thing that sets my company apart. Since we build the original engine from the car, with no swapping of engines, or parts there are no core charges/ assessments to deal with. I know up front if an engine is a total loss, and we usually don't accept those jobs because of trauma caused by the failure, and the hassles associated with sorting through adding extra costs to deal with them. I also think that people coming our way value knowing their original engine (with known mileage and use) is being retained for our hand- built version, rather than getting an engine built from cores gathered from several engines, that may have hundreds of thousands of miles on them, had been in a flood, or etc. This is a lot like building a house, you can build a mansion on a cracked foundation, and end up with a pile of junk. Every so often a failure will sneak up on us, and be worse than we expect, and we have to deal with trauma even though we tried to avoid it. One just got us last week with an M97.21, and we are sorting through it simply, and it will only add a couple grand to the bottom line. This one failed on the street, and with the symptoms that were reported I assumed that damage would be less extensive. Had this engine been sent in as a "core" to a mass producer, it would have been a loss of at least 12K in "core assessed parts". Of course, he would have been led to believe that he'd get all his money back, or at least "most of it". In short, core charges suck.

Jake raby I appreciate and applaud your dedication towards honest assessment and transparency I’m new to the 911 world and hopefully when my motor gives out haven’t even driven it yet it’s on a trailer up from Florida but when I’m ready I hope you’re still here for me at least thanks Mike

Quotes source post: 17423427

Thank you. If you end up coming our way, you'll think that you've stepped back in time. That's not a bad thing :-)

Quotes source post: 17411530

4,000 miles no oil use . Now is an early car, lokasil one. Based on service history all services but two out of 42 records Mobil one 0w40. By the we way compression is great. No I�m not tracking this car but every time I take it thru the heat cycle in now my two days per week drives, a triple digit trip for fun. Also never shifted higher than 6750.

Quotes source post: 17423399

I got my same engine back...sorta. Doesn't run, sound or act the same, but I'm told it is the same engine...on the outside! Thanks, Jake!

Quotes source post: 17423458

Just drive it, and continue to fall in love with it. That makes decisions later a lot easier. Yep, you got it all back.. Heads, cams, working, and of course the matching numbers crankcase.

Quotes source post: 17410101

I think Jake is a cool guy and know his stuff, he is not the only option. Dude I had info and first hand data on a lot of stuff at Hendricks motorsports, Gibbs racing, and roush racing, three college degrees, travelled to over 110 countries all over the world and etc etc etc. Oil analysis I used to go to the lab prepare blind oil samples send it to 75 labs all over the world and got the results, then I would tell them what lab equipment was bad. Every three months. I had access to one of the 4 certified api engine labs. You don�t know half of the technology that�s out there. Regarding BBQ, most people just buy a pellet grill and set it and forget it. An offset smoker that you have to watch for 18 hours cooking 100 briskets for a charity giving back to the community for cancer, and all other kinds of special operations or benefits for sick child�s. Anyway I do admire Jake for his knowledge and the way he is and runs his program probably has to do with the fact that he probably serve which I didn�t and he probably read the book treat your employees like customers and customers like employees. FYI I formally retired in 2011, did the eurospec mb and bmw for a couple of years and probably the mistakes that I made was choosing the wrong partner and build the cars to my taste. Anyway FYI, I was offered a Job as a navy nuclear engineer and I said no to a three star admiral in Annapolis, thou I had a great trip to a Annapolis, had a great 3 day trip plus took the qualification exam and pass it. I have always been an outcast and since I could not choose where they were going to put me I could have been stuck in a submarine that was under water 6 months at a time, I liked the females way too much. By the way can you tell me how many people retire at 43 with enough for the rest of their life�s. The rest of my year, padre island in June for a week with the family, 4th of July two weeks with my surgeon bro in Tampa clear water in Fl, Formula 1 race circuit of the America�s, December With family for two weeks. 2 front beach condos Caribbean beach blue water, white sand, no snow.

Quotes source post: 17423586

Haha... dude, gotta say - I have no idea what the **** you’re talking about... like not a bit.... You do your thing though, you don’t need a dummy like me to get it... you probably do better with the smart people. ETA... I don’t have a resume... I concede victory on the resume battle to you. Congratulations.

Quotes source post: 17423604

no problem, your money is your money and you spend it like you see. It�s not what you make it�s what you do with it , it�s a way of life. Do some search and see how many athletes, actors etc have gone broke. I�ll always say you could stick me in a janitors closet, you could give me a Jack off all trait tittle, just show me the money. Cool trick when people know you are retired you get invited to all high end dinners for you and your wife, $250 as high as $500 free. I�ll always go if I can because I may learn a thing or two, then I schedule a meeting with them and ask them bring their public 5 year performance record and off course I take mine. Today at a 5 year Time horizon I have not met an asset manager that does better than me. On top of all that bull, you got to pay an annual fee based in assets managed as high as 2 percent sometimes. My grandfather on my mother�s side with an 8th grade education taught me something that I have never forgotten, mistakes in life are paid with money. He had 13 natural kids and adopted Another 7.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/offtopic.gif

Dude... if you think I give a flying **** how smart you think you are, how much of whatever you have, or who you hang out with... you’re not as smart as you espouse to be. You got a lot to talk about.. that’s for sure... I’m not interested in that either. I am interested in talking about motors though... so if at some point in the future you decide you’d like to have a conversation, an actual coherent conversation about motors... I’d be interested. Until then...

Quotes source post: 17423679

I�m clear. Since you are talking motors , remember I�m not racing mine.Honestly would my money would be better if spent on a 3.4 rebutils, or should I sell and get a 997 2006 and latter car. Your thoughts opinions appreciated.

I like to hang out with janitors. I learn more than I ever did in graduate school.

Quotes source post: 17423744

I meet a guy last week with a Carrera GT, then he has 3 other ones one of them a GT2RS Weissach or whatever it is. By looking, seeing the guy you wouldn�t have know how much money he has. He even had worn out tennis shoes. I learned this a long time ago don�t judge a book by the cover, the millionaire next door is a great read.

Other things have been been occupying my attention lately, so I haven't checked-in on RL. For the record, as the OP on this thread, I don't think @zbomb 's post about LS swaps was off-topic. The only reason I didn't include it in the original comparison was because I wasn't interested in that option and didn't do the research. Also, one of the reasons I started the thread was because every other thread on here was a relentless swarm of FSI fans trying to convince me to go that route. An FSI build is clearly one of the best options for people who have the time and money for it, but it's not the only viable option. We all benefit from good information and discussion about different alternatives to the terrible situation of having a dead engine.

Quotes source post: 17443644

How is the car doing?

Quotes source post: 17443644

not certain if anyone brought this up. Since I was looking at a possible roller. On Monday local Porsche dealership quoted me short block with warranty $8,125. They told me that�s 3 to 5 business day and you have to bring your core. I think we always have to look at all available options. Anyway my mechanic who has taken Jakes rebuild courses and also works at a PCA shop, works for a few people at his house so that would be who if needed, I would use.

The short block is a viable option, even if it�s incomplete. With the long block additions, we�re looking at $12-$15k. And not all the problem areas have been addressed. BTW, short blocks just 3 years ago were $6500-ish.

What is missing from the short block that you�d have to source or take from core?

Quotes source post: 17445103

Everything outside of the actual crankcase assembly is missing. If it was called a long block it would include the cylinder heads.

So you get a short block with the same cylinder wall surface and the larger more reliable IMS bearing. I wouldn't mind the IMS bearing, I just don't trust the cylinder walls if I was going to keep the car for more than 10 years and I drove the car year round with cold winters.

Quotes source post: 17447044

ok so i was just looking at options. No I don�t need an engine, mine is real healthy so far I have put 5,000 miles on it no issues at all. I like making my own decisions, I am an engineer with a bachelors and masters and worldwide business experience plus a ton of lubricants , engines etc. I think these engines can last, I personally have driven cars with as many as 225,000 miles and the engines where still good. In this forum dejepeer was racing a 200,000 mile engine. Some other folks 9 seasons racing tracking no issues. Also as Porsche tech 3 taught me there are differences between the early engines with lokasil 1 and the latter engines with lokasil 2. Also if you have seen reenvision the episode where they discussed the 996 Jake clearly states that he prefers the early ones, and that his preferred color is a white one and he also states that the way he would buy it, would be a blown up car and he clearly states that these seem to never blow up. One of Jakes best ever recommendations is more frequent oil changes, think about it any engine where you do more frequent oil changes it�s going to last a lot longer. Anyway I have done quite a bit of reading and watching stuff about bore scoring, there are a bunch of reasons why garage queens, cars that get put away for 6 months, etc will have a lot higher tendency for this. I don�t disagree that nickies or chrome moly are better technologies for piston cylinders interfaces. I had my reasons when I finally decided why I choose an early 99, the more I drive the car, the more i learned about them , I become more more satisfied about my decision.

Quotes source post: 17443669

It was great for about a year. I�m now having an issue that I�m about to address in a different thread.

Quotes source post: 17447527

I may not have been clear. I was referring to the Porsche short block. I assume it would also have the Lokasil 2 making me believe they will be prone to scoring.

That's what I was thinking about. I don't know what the production dates are on the blocks being sold today but if its anything remotely recent, would Porsche be applying the same coating in 2020/2021 as they did in say 2000?

Quotes source post: 17448524

Looking forward to your thread.

Quotes source post: 17448960

What's being applied is the same process that was used at the end of M9X engine production for new cars, in 2008.

Quotes source post: 17448524

Did you ever post a new thread on the issue? Very interested.

Any experience with this rebuilder?

I have not seen their name come up around here but have seen it pop up on line. Great to have another option on the market. Looks like they have a nice exhaust that's being produced as well. Not much details but looks like steel wet liner solution. Not the go-to or popular option but can work when executed properly. Here's a blurb from their FB page: Porsche block machining for conversion is where great engine builds begin. At Emegatronic, we take Porsche engine blocks far beyond simple “refresh” work. Precision machining is what allows a proper conversion — whether you’re changing displacement, upgrading internals, or preparing the block for serious boost. Here’s what smart Porsche owners look for in a conversion-ready block: • Accurate measurement and inspection Before any cut, the block is fully measured, checked for warpage, cracks and wear so you’re not building power on a weak foundation. • Precision machining for your specific build Boring, honing, surfacing and custom machining are all done to match your pistons, rods and intended power level — not a one-size-fits-all recipe. • Attention to oiling and cooling Machining choices directly affect reliability. We focus on clearances, flow and sealing surfaces so the converted engine can live on track and street. • Integration with your full engine plan From naturally aspirated upgrades to turbo conversions, every step is planned so the block, internals and peripherals work together as a system. Check out this Porsche block machining for conversion project completed at 1900 East Main Street, Bridgeport, CT 06610 and imagine what a properly prepared block could do for your Porsche, BMW or McLaren build.

hmm, I'm getting recommendations to go with Slaker in OKC over RND LN. I'm trying to stay $15-$16k for the rebuild part as long as it's going to be a solid build. Gents, thoughts? thx

$15-$16k seems low for both of those guys. Does anyone offer a rebuild for that little?

Quotes source post: 20430903

Hartech UK https://www.hartech.org/porsche-engi...rebuild-prices Obviously in GBP. And different labour prices but perhaps Slakker offer a "light" rebuild like Hartech?

LN has a lot more experience and track record that is 10 times longer than Slakker's. Brandon talks a lot but doesn't always know what he's talking about.

LN/FSI would be my pick, and was back in 2020. Slakker wasn't around then, but of all the options, the FSI/LN guys had the experience depth to deliver an engine that would work better than the stock engine for the rest of my life(est 150k miles). Good luck with your choice.

Lee Jenkins at Hartech has built now just over 2500 engines (based on their FB post). I'd trust their expertice to rebuild the engine just as you like to have it.

Quotes source post: 20431276

For instance?

Parts alone will cost you ~ $15-25k today depending on whether you want baseline or upgraded parts and procedures. Then you have to add in labor. Not cheap, but a good rebuild can last you for the rest of your life and then some.

Quotes source post: 20431276

Bold statements right there. I just preferred to work with someone who didn't carry a tremendous chip on their shoulder and was far easier to work with, when it came time to choose. And track record? Slakker has built over 100 engines at this point, and even though it might be less than FSI, plenty of them have lived life in track cars and get daily driven. Haven't heard of any failures, and we all know more people are inclined to report a failure out there than that everything is going well. Speaking of not knowing what they're talking about....anyone remember when Jake went on about Porsche discontinuing the short block program and that he's been able to ****** up whatever inventory is out there so good luck finding one? Yeah, not really the case...I can order one tomorrow.

Quotes source post: 20433038

LN engineering has been around since 2002. Slakker has been around since 2022 or 2023. It not a bold statement, it's a fact. Do business with anyone you feel comfortable with. But Brandon doesn't have a clue....

Quotes source post: 20433059

Again, for instance? If you�re trying to make a point, have a point. As a consumer of Porsche parts and services, I�d like to know what�s wrong with SRD.

Slander of an individual or business will not be tolerated. Keep it technical. Be forewarned. Thanks.

Slakker uses Hartech UK gear which has been around since 1984. I assume they're using, at least, liners, pistons and associated hardware. Not sure of head stuff at Brandon has been talking about 8000rpm springs and I think they were US source?

Quotes source post: 20433173

I an confused that this comment is made now. I have no affiliation with LN or FSI but in the past year I have seen Slakker openly insult and taunt Charles and Jake (who isn't even here to defend himself) repeatedly. And a moderator has never said a word. In the 996 and 997 forums, Engine Gurus, Brandon has posted that Jake lies to his customers telling them they have bore scoring when they really don't just so he can milk an engine rebuild out of them (and opens his recent bore scoring video with something like "this has been heavily marketed by my competition"), he started Slakker just to spite Jake out of a disagreement they had and one day he's going to release an embarrassing video of him when Jake retires, that Charles recommends SAE 40 grade instead of 50 grade because more people will get bore scoring, making jokes/bragging about stealing Jake's "expensive videos" on Limewire, and several other rude comments. But, sure, I am not allowed to tell the truth and am reprimanded for my technically based assessment. Have a nice weekend.

Quotes source post: 20433321

If you are making an accusation of incompetence, misleading information, disparaging competitors, or any other reason to avoid doing business with anyone, cite sources or keep it to yourself.

Quotes source post: 20433186

Brandon having Hartech UK wizards Baz, & Len on speed dial must be nice if any question come up on all the Hartech parts and cylinders Slakkers uses. Even the Slakker/Harteck o-ring cam actuators rebuild kits come from Harteck UK. Come to think of it, Slakker/Harteck is the only show in town that offers this substantial savings to rebuild the now $3000.00+ cam actuators instead of buying new, like other re-builders require. $300 rebuild kit or have Slakker do it for $600. As long as the plunger and other parts are in good shape like usual, a rebuild might even be better than new as the rebuild kit doesn't use the old style fragile green defective orings that commonly disintegrate into the sump as green bits and pieces... Either way, Slakker/Hartech with Baz & Len & Brandon make a hard to match crew, as does Jake and Charles. Either one you can't go wrong with for a rebuilt m96 imho.

Quotes source post: 20434651

Yea I think you'd win with either. The only difference that I'm aware of is closed deck vs open deck design. (if I've understood the difference between Hartech/LN) no idea why one over the other...

Quotes source post: 20434654

Ya in theory, open deck might increase cooling capacity efficiency (maybe?) Closed deck might (?) increase structure block/cylinder rigidity allowing big boost/compression. Neither one of those benefits are needed with the pressed in aluminum sleeved nik-sil cylinders on big bore NA m96 engines,,, of both Companies. jmo

I went w Slakker. 2yr unlimited warranty including track use.

IMHO, there is absolutely NO reason for low blows by any builders or rennlisters. Every builder has a methodology, system and set of parts they use depending on owners objectives and bank account. Lets discuss them and their advantages and disadvantages. Quite frankly, we need as many high quality builders as we can find. Last I checked, there are over 500,000 engines in the world sitting in the 996, 997, 986 and 987 chassis that will some day need a rebuild. Plenty of room for innovation, market share and profit growth for anybody with a pulse and wrench.

Quotes source post: 20435384

Very happy with my 3.7 Slakker motor. Brandon also reviews data from every one of my track sessions to confirm oiling performance. The warranty is another huge incentive.

Would be great for prospective engine rebuild customers to hear directly from Slakker Hartech or Charles LN giving us insight into the benefits/pitfalls of their closed or open deck cylinder sleeve upgrades. And why they choose their particular sleeve deck configuration over the other.. ?

Quotes source post: 20438646

Hartech has a pretty good commercial version of what and why on their website. Baz Hart wrote a 113 page technical paper on the M96/97 (circa 2019) you can get if you sign a NDA.

I’ll be the first to admit I still have plenty left to learn when it comes to these engines. That said, the work we’ve done with PCA Club Racing to understand why the Caymans were losing so many engines — along with the reliability of our early builds on track — has led to Slakker becoming the only engine builder approved across all M9X race classes for 2026, including Stock, SPB, SP996, SP997, SPC, and ME1. We’re currently slated to have 8 PCA race cars running our engines this year, up from 1 in 2024 and 4 in 2025.

For what it�s worth, Fischer Motors in Barrington, IL offers engine rebuilds for the 996 that is close to $20k all-in. Maybe less. I�m not sure what upgrades or improvements come with a rebuild like this, and I�m not suggesting this would be a track engine. I�m just letting folks know about this option. Anyone interested should just call him up and see for yourself.