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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHHow prevalent is bore scoring?
Leading reported evidence
Repair by insurance
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
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Suggestion
Not surprised at all to hear that from dealers but that answer should immediately be put into perspective by hetting am answer of them to the question of how many engines they've actually checked for borescoring.
Leading evidence: 'Repair by insurance' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check borescoring' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The car has done 75k and has had 21 services at recognised Porsche specialists (and 16 additional visits to recognised Porsche specialists for parts to be renewed and replaced) in that time and the car is immaculate with zero bore score and has used zero oil in 5k miles.
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Suggestion
And let's face it, the auto industry leased a boatload of porsches at that time, then the car was given back to the dealership after 3 years with the original oil and it passed to another owner who maybe changed the oil once, and then the next guy, and so on and so on.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
My sister ran Ancestry.com on us and it said we're from Sicily.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I ran Millers Nano 40 for a very long time and am now running Driven DI40 in the cold weather months and DI50 in the warm weather months.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check borescoring
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion
Not surprised at all to hear that from dealers but that answer should immediately be put into perspective by hetting am answer of them to the question of how many engines they've actually checked for borescoring.
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Suggestion
Add in not getting the oil hot enough to burn off the fuel and moisture, coupled with old fuel injectors dumping in more fuel than needed and old MAF and Oxy sensors causing the AFR to run rich which dumps more fuel in the equation, you end up with bad oil that doesn't lubricate sufficiently.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The car has done 75k and has had 21 services at recognised Porsche specialists (and 16 additional visits to recognised Porsche specialists for parts to be renewed and replaced) in that time and the car is immaculate with zero bore score and has used zero oil in 5k miles.
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Suggestion
Many of the guys here on the 996 forum have been driving their cars for more than 20 years on the same engine, but they didn't just rely on oil changes alone.
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Suggestion
And let's face it, the auto industry leased a boatload of porsches at that time, then the car was given back to the dealership after 3 years with the original oil and it passed to another owner who maybe changed the oil once, and then the next guy, and so on and so on.
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Suggestion
Yeah, if I was to put money down on the true cause of bore scoring, it would be a byproduct of bad lubrication from the original oil change recommendation from the factory of every 20k miles.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
47 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T213932Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
I�m still on my hunt for the best 996 and in the midst of my inquiries I�ve have had a few dealers mention to me that they�ve never encountered bore scoring on the m96 and it is not an issue with well maintained vehicles. I then spoke with another dealer who told me all of them encounter it to some degree but getting a scope when there are no external signs (smoky exhaust, clicking engine, etc) is cost prohibitive and unnecessary..
who here has experienced bore scoring on their m96?
Please name the "few dealers" that have NEVER encountered bore scoring. I've known a few dentists that claim they've never had patients that needed fillings or crowns. Come to find out, all the patients were old and had no teeth.
Are we talking official Porsche dealerships or independent?
I'm going to take a shot at this, knowing that you are looking to buy a 996. The way the M96 engine was designed, bore scoring is all but inevitable eventually. The bores and the pistons have essentially plated surfaces. The plating wears off and the bores get scratched. There haven't been any studies done to determine what delays the inevitable. Anecdotal evidence is that well maintained 996s can delay the inevitable for a long time. I can say from my own sample of two, that if you don't have any sense for how to care for a car, you will soon see bore score. If your car is well maintained, frequent oil changes and taking proactive actions to prevent breakdowns, you can hold off the inevitable for a long time. The problem with these cars is that so many of them have had 4 or more owners over their 25-year life that no one really cared enough.
Therefore, it is possible that you will find dealers who are picky about the cars they resell and therefore don't see it as a problem, and others who may not care about what they resell and see it all the time.
In an ideal world, you would examine the bores of any 996 you want to buy, but even that isn't foolproof. It will only tell you if there is a current problem. It won't tell you how long you have left. The best advice I can offer is to buy the 996 with the fewest number of previous owners and the most extensive service record.
I won�t name the dealer at this time, I don�t want to throw anyone under the bus at this stage but he is a independent Porsche specialist.. here is his message to me
Joel,
I forgot to mention�.
As far as the bore scoring on M96 engines�.we have never seen it.
The 997.1 M97 motors is where we�ve seen it but less than 5% and always was on very high miles cars that were clearly not serviced.
Not surprised at all to hear that from dealers but that answer should immediately be put into perspective by hetting am answer of them to the question of how many engines they've actually checked for borescoring.
If one doesn't look, one won't see.
The dealer who said he was not aware of a problem with bore scoring in 996's was either being untruthful or not very experienced with these cars. My 2005(996)C4S was a three owner when I bought it with zero records. My guess is the first owner followed the owners manual on oil changes which, IMHO, is a tragedy! Below is a scope pic through the spark plug hole of number 6 cylinder at less than 55k miles. So not high miles...
Well, if you're looking for an exact % number, no clue, never seen one. And not sure an accurate one could even be done.
What I can tell you, and you can see for yourself reading our forum, its a fairly common event that's plagued many here.
Ok, so we're talking about one independent shop. Makes sense now.
Here's my advice - Don't get caught up in trying to answer a question of that magnitude. It will drive you crazy! The best course of action is to find a car that you like and have it inspected. That simple.
With proper care and preventive maintenance, you can get years of enjoyment out of your Porsche. Many of the guys here on the 996 forum have been driving their cars for more than 20 years on the same engine, but they didn't just rely on oil changes alone. They cover ALL the bases when caring for their engines. And yes, that might include a full rebuild with Nikasil cylinders. Does that scare you? My family owns a dealership and after reviewing hundreds of Carfax reports on Porsche sport cars, I can't give you a solid opinion that MOST owners do NOT keep their cars more than 2-3 years. The owners that "love" their Porsches are the ones that are going to keep them for 20+ years and care for every aspect of the car which means even having the engines removed to be serviced to tackle well-known wear components.
That begs the question... What camp are YOU in?
Exactly!
True story. There were lots of new houses going up in our area about the time before the economy tanked (06-08). After it tanked, lots of builders and subs contractors were NOT getting paid and businesses were shutting down, but in the midst of all of that, you could find great deals of homes. This one subdivision had nice looking homes with basements. The agents were praising the quality and showing that all had met the inspection standards of the city... yada yada yada.
All the new homes sold, but a couple of years later, big problems arose. Come to find out the subs were cutting corners. For example, the roofers didn't add flashing which resulted in water pouring into the house. Some had foundation issues. wiring issues... plumbing issues... Lots of angry people. All had to be repaired by insurance. The insurance agencies were about to sue the contractors, but come to find out even the city inspector wasn't even doing their job. They wouldn't even come out on property to examine the work. This was like a line from
Sergeant Schultz in
Hogan's Heros... "I KNOW NOTHING!" hahaha The inspector was just signing off on the form but NEVER inside these homes. Sloppy! If you asked the agents about any problem or common issues with the homes, they'd tell you "We've never had any problem with these homes!" Fact was, they
SEE NOTHING, THEY KNEW NOTHING!
I guess I'm in the camp that wants to my first purchase to be the right one, not someone else's problem. To continue the love and care that the previous owner provided for the duration of my ownership and when and if it comes time to move on I will pass the car to the next owner who will hopefully love and care for it to the same extent. I am fully prepared for the cost of ownership, my only fear is a car that is constant in need of attention so much so that the enjoyment of driving said car is minimized and then having to pass that "problem" on to the next guy..
The guy who reconstructed my engine asked me a question: Do you love your car? My answer was an easy "Yes." If you love these cars be prepared to maintain it($$$$), but just as important is do due diligence in having invasive inspections done prior to purchase. Not cheap but neither is a rebuilt engine. Remember these are 20 years old and a high performance vehicle not a Camry or Accord.
Have it scoped and look for service history. Scoping from the spark plug hole is useful in my opinion but some will say you need to drop the sump. I found it very difficult to make a very good inspection from the sump myself. It�s also much more time consuming which means people skip it. Have someone go in the spark plug holes at a minimum.
I've read the reason to scope from the bottom is that will catch the early symptoms. On my car it was very advanced and easy to see through the spark plug holes.
Yeah, if I was to put money down on the true cause of bore scoring, it would be a byproduct of bad lubrication from the original oil change recommendation from the factory of every 20k miles.
Add in not getting the oil hot enough to burn off the fuel and moisture, coupled with old fuel injectors dumping in more fuel than needed and old MAF and Oxy sensors causing the AFR to run rich which dumps more fuel in the equation, you end up with bad oil that doesn't lubricate sufficiently.
But I remember when I bought my 996 back in 2002 and how big of a deal the dealership made on how "great" the new oil was and that you didn't need to change it very often.
And let's face it, the auto industry leased a boatload of porsches at that time, then the car was given back to the dealership after 3 years with the original oil and it passed to another owner who maybe changed the oil once, and then the next guy, and so on and so on. Probably alot of M96s with 80k miles and only 4 oil changes in 20+ years.
This is why you gotta get your hands on the service records, test the oil for clues on whats happening in the engine, drop the sump and cut open the oil filter to see whats in it, and scope the bores.
No doubt there are plenty of great ones out there, but plenty of grocery getters that have a long history of infrequent oil changes as well. Same can be said for the 986, 987, 981, 718, 997, 991, 992, cayenne, macans, panameras, audis, bmws, merc, etc.
100% ^^^
I hadn't thought about the lease and return the vehicle with the same oil in it three years. I can't tell you how many, multiple owner, 996 Carfax's I've seen that shows the first owner having no record of service. This explains the mystery. Cheers.
For sure. I am convinced that from what we know now about the M96, a new factory shortblock can last 30+ years without any problems if the owner bolts on the right part enhancements (IMSB, UAOS), changes the water pump every 5-7 years, and runs great oil and changes it 2x a year.
Obviously more bolt ons will need to be done if the owner wants to track the car.
My 99 has a dual row IMS Bearing and Nikasil liners. I am at 118k miles without any evidence of scoring. I never drive it on short trips and have updated the 996.1 injectors to 996.2 in order to address the hypothetical overspray during warm up. Change the oil regularly and watch for creeping temps.
I haven't kept up with the variations on the factory short block because I plan on doing a proactive rebuild to enhance the power and internal components for the next 25 years on the track.
But my point on the short block and all original engines as it pertains to bore scoring and durability is that the engines are pretty darn durable straight from the factory of you service it properly.
My 2002 has its original engine with 68k miles and well over 100 track days on it since 2004 with no bore scoring. But i have changed my oil on average every 700 miles with well over 100 oil changes since buying it over 22 years ago. Oil tests are good. No bits in the engine sump or oil filter and it's still going strong.
Fwiw. I ran Millers Nano 40 for a very long time and am now running Driven DI40 in the cold weather months and DI50 in the warm weather months.
I may be wrong, but always having fresh oil in the engine certainly helped.
There never were Nikasil liners on stock M96 / M97s.
Early cars did have a different plating on the pistons (FerroStan), which is theoretically more durable. Some reputable names say those pretty much don't score (Hartech, for one).
I change my oil every 1000 miles or less. I have the spin on filter and between that and the placement of the drain plug, it is so easy to do, that I don't mind doing it every 4-6 weeks.
Some may call it overkill, but I think it's smart. IMHO, a basic 2x a year is easy to do. Fresh oil can solve for alot of problems caused by bad fuel injectors and rich running systems that the owner may not be aware of.
Imagine if every 996 owner changed their oil just 2x a year over the past 20 years. They would have 40 service records. Go figure?!
Yes they do....on one hand that is a good thing because it is a bigger better bearing but on the other hand you can't just install the IMS Solution ....which is even better...
Skip is saying the non-replaceable is better than either the single row or double row, but you can't install the IMS solution which is better than the large non-replaceable one.
(You have to know how to speak Skip)
"
Maybe southern speak is served a little different over here in Georgia."
Hey - I am in Georgia as well - have been since 1963 at age 2... I think I speak southern and unfortunately northern as well thanks to working for years with an NJ Italian.
-Tom
Hey Tom, I was born in GA 1970. Lived here all my life. Mom from Miami ... Dad from North Carolina. Military Family. My sister ran Ancestry.com on us and it said we're from Sicily. haha That may explain things.
There are comments on here that say number of owners is a guide to how well the car has been looked after. It means nothing. My 2003 996 4S says it has had 11 owners which didn�t worry me at all. The car has done 75k and has had 21 services at recognised Porsche specialists (and 16 additional visits to recognised Porsche specialists for parts to be renewed and replaced) in that time and the car is immaculate with zero bore score and has used zero oil in 5k miles. I asked my local independent to check it over and the only thing he could find by being extremely picky (in his own words) was that one of the drop links has a bit of rubber that might need looking at in a year.
So in summary if I had listened to the above I would never have seen the car.
Service history is everything.
I�ve just stripped a 68000 mile 2001 3.4 with Porsche service history and I would say all these engines need a full rebuild including repairing all the bores, I had one really bad and the other 5 had some bad marks and all bores were over 0.1mm out of round tapered, the cam chain guides had some odd pitting to.
Make note of this that scoped through the plugs hole. This is not hard to do or very time consuming. There is a lot of talk about going through the oil sump which is quite difficult and very time consuming. I realize the sump method would show very early scoring but when buying a car I would at least have the camera sent into the plug holes. Any major scoring will be obvious. Another thing is that the car can run perfectly well with visible scoring so have them scoped!
I�ve come to accept that Porsche builds crap engines period, Mezger included. Cayennes included (how is it possible to screw up a V6/V8?) They will bore score, have IMS issues, pop coolant lines and slip cams, leak oil and do it all sooner way than any other engine driven equally as hard. Every 10-20th they start send out a plume of grey smoke.
I can�t stand my wife�s M2 that�s never had a single issue, but I can�t wait to drive my 1999 Aerokit Carrera that has many of them - bore scoring, suspension knocking, aircon flaps, window micro switches - and have withdrawal symptoms when I can�t. Love driving these cars.
So I plan on expensive engine problems at some point. And keep a Toyota in the drive just in case.
The (VW sourced) VR6 in the 955/957 is one of the most reliable engines out there. Figures it's not made by Porsche. I think Porsche tries to push the envelope and often pushes it too far.
To be fair it seems every manufacturer of high performance engines makes a few gaffes.
No question, the 996 is an absolute pleasure to drive. I never get bored with it and always look for an excuse to take it out for a long spin. Even after 22 years of ownership.
Yeah, the 996 M96 is pretty easy to keep running strong.
1. Run great oil and change it 2x a year.
2. Upgrade the IMSB
3. Upgrade the AOS to the UAOS.
4 Change the water pump every 5 years.
There are outliers to that assessment. Currently having 2 Porsches with original drivetrains collectively totaling 485K (970.1 Turbo & 996.2) that are still incredibly strong and dependable, I think it really comes down to quality of maintenance and driver on the longevity of these cars. Love both of them for completely different reasons!
Sigh - fixing the cams in my 997.1 turbo just cost me +$10k with only 67k miles on the clock. The last �Porsche specialist� didn�t do the sharkwerks coolant pipes right so they were refixed. Hopefully that�s the last of the engine work needed on the turbo. Thank goodness they don�t bore score too!
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