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YOUR RESEARCHGot my dream car, now what to do to it
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cost
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Reported cause
Problem is cost and on a 996, there isn't room for both pumps.
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oil aeration and thinning at high temps experienced
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The less spoken about issue is oil aeration and thinning at high temps experienced on track that coupled with starvation caused major engine damage.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Then I discovered actual water temps were quite a bit lower when checked via the ODBII or Durametric software.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Also pulled the bumper and cleaned the rads (good lord that was nasty).
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Suggestion
200 treadwear or stickier tires compound this issue and at that point, a 1/2 quart deep sump, even with X51 baffle, is useless, requiring more drastic changes like a race oil and 2 quart deep sump.
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Just purchased a 04 C4S Cabriolet in Seal Grey with 60k on the clock. Got it from Porsche of Orlando. Had the IMS, RMS and Clutch all done as part of the sale. Since then i have ordered new motor mounts, belt, coolant recover tank and cap, water pump and tstat, short throw shifter and fabspeed comp intake and a new set of Michelin Pilot PS2's. Figured i would knock out a lot of the known issue now. Also pulled the bumper and cleaned the rads (good lord that was nasty). Not sure what to do next. I was going to get a set of fab speed mufflers and start looking into the suspension. I question what i should actually do to the suspension though. It will be a weekend play toy. Will most likely never see a track (but i would love to try it once). I fully intend on driving this car like it was intended. I got the intake and am looking into exhaust only for sound, not power. Any suggestions on what a new comer should do to his new weekend warrior?
Truthfully, not really trying to accomplish anything. Just add touches to make it mine. If it woukd make a difference to the way the car handles, i will do it. If people honestly say i will see no changes, then i won't.
Cds72911 - i would disagree with your comment about "throwing parts at it". I'm a mechanic by trade, i would rather take care of known issues now then sit on the side of the road waiting on a tow truck. And while i happily wait on the UPS truck to arrive, I drive it like i stole it.
When I first got mine I wanted to throw a bunch of stuff at it and make a bunch of changes. I�m thankful that I heeded the advice of many folks here and just drove it. I�m glad I listened. While I�ve only had mine a little over a year I�m glad I didn�t change much yet. For example, my car came with Sport Design wheels. The car was in dire need of new tires and I almost got rid of the wheels at that point. When I was looking for the car most had the usual Carerra wheels and that�s what I wanted. I�ve grown to enjoy the wheels and am glad I kept them.
A little over a year into ownership I�ve settled on a few areas I want to change and have had a lot of time to think about things.
My advice is the same; just drive it and enjoy it for a while before going hog wild.
I dunno, sounds like you like to make some changes, so I would think about suspension. The suspension is now quite old. Also, you didn�t mention changing the brake fluid and trans/diff fluid or coolant. I tend to do those when I cannot find any record or that all being done on an old car. You could also do plugs and coils. It�s too bad of those items have been done without record, as they add up in time and money. But if it hasn�t been done, it will need it at some point.
All that said, I would consider tracking more than once. Try it first, having replaced the brake fluid with high temp racing fluid and track pads. Then, if you liked the experience, I would do it more than once. These cars are a blast to drive on the track. You don�t have to race for maximum lap time, but you can drive quite spiritedly on a track compared to the street.
What I suggest you do is join PCA and your local chapter. There are many events and drives set up by the local chapters. You will meet fellow enthusiasts, share your car, technical events and drives with other Porsche car owners.
I was going to say the same thing... Florida Citrus PCA is a great group and a ton of fun.... probably more track oriented than many - but then again, we have some great tracks....
1st Monday of every month is the PCA meeting at Porsche of Orlando - then usually drinks and food at Marlow's Tavern in Winter Park after. 3rd Monday of every month is Porsche night at Ace Cafe. Usually a pretty good turn out.
Thought about the whole porsche club thing.....im a little shy about meeting new people....would love to track the car but wouldnt know the first thing about how to do it, where and all that.
all fluids will be changed by me in the next few weeks.
If you wanna replace wear items that are needed , have at it. Before you do the coolant tank, drive it a bit to ensure no other hoses are leaking and inspect for any that may look brittle. If you have records, figure out the last time it�s had a water pump and thermostat and then change all together. Wouldn�t hurt to clean the radiators and poke around there too for anything that looks worn, wonky or leaking. Belt can easily be done then too.
Then just drive it. Get a good feel for how it drives stock and let that be your guide towards suspension, go fast or exhaust upgrades. Enjoy, it�s a great car.
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Congrats! Definitely drive it, but if you're after some small parts that make the drive a bit more enjoyable, maybe a short shifter of some sort and a set of sway bars? I have a 4S as well and the sway bars took out a lot of the roll in corners which was what I would imagine a sporty car would feel like.
I’m having my latest car partially wrapped— if yours isn’t you could consider looking into a partial wrap or coating to prevent all the white chips that can form quickly from roads.
Go for it! Instructors will sit you all down and give you guidance as they don't just let you go at it on your own...
Start saving $$ for the unexpected big repair bill. All rubber and plastic bits will need updating if not already done.
OP,
Good words from the Rennlisters. My fun was going through the car and making sure all the fasteners were correct and functional, checking the undertrays, all the hoses, all the cosmetics like the covers over the front trunk release and under the wipers. Did you put screens for the radiators in? Loved getting to know the 996 and made it mine! Downloaded the PET to get smart about the systems, cleaned the seats and carpets, addressed the crappy soft-touch painted parts, etc and ad nauseum. Drive the car hard for a couple months and then determine what the suspension needs. Welcome and enjoy your P-car!
Center third rad kit and low temp thermostat. Full flow oil filter kit. Do everything you can to protect the engine. Track or no, keep it cool, and keep it lubed.
I'd think step one should be burn through a few tanks of fuel and get to know the car, from there decide what type of mods work for you, ie performance, audio, appearance, some stay stock others pop in an LS motor some they say add spatulas for improved aerodynamics.
Since your asking though, poly swaybar bushings are cheep and easy, and you may want to consider looking at the trans mount mine was separated by 60k
BTW nice wheel colour combo
Don�t track it. The engine has too many weak points to take these risks: overheating, oil starvation (even on street tires, yes even with a motorsport oil pan) IMS seals if degraded will make the bearing run too hot, ...
Go cruise, drive fast, enjoy ... but do it on the road
if you want to upgrade more or less in this order:
- low temp thermostat
- spin on oil filter adapter
- stainless steel braided brake lines
- Motul RBF 660 or Castrol SRF brake fluid
- look at motor mount and transmission mount (upgrades)
- upgrade your suspension, coil over, drop the car 3/4 of an inch
- poly bushings, sway bar/strut brace (Will make your cab a bit stiffer)
- the above two with a custom alignment incl. corner weighing.
The last 3 ones are the most expensive ones, but if done well will make your car drive as a dream.
Nobody there bites.... they're all pretty friendly. I'm a PCA instructor and am local - so if you have questions about tracking - I can probably help. There are some AWESOME indy shops local too. Florida Citrus goes to Roebling Road Raceway in October - great first track to learn on. Suncoast is headed to Sebring in September. There is also Oktoberfast at Daytona - it's an advanced DE, Club Race, and autocross on the road course and its a ton of fun.
The jury is still out on the strut brace (save your money) and if there are any noticeable benefits of adding one. Lowering and stiffening might ruin the feel of you car as a daily driver...Again as other have said just" drive it+ for the first year after you take care of the preventative items.
Go for a proper good coil over in combination with a bit lower ride, i.e 3/4 of an inch, and it will be better and even more comfortable then stock. Will cost you more $$$ then the more standard or oem equivalents, but it is the upgrade with the most effect on how the car feels and drive.
However we have no pot holes over here so standaards might be different indeed.
Why no preventative measures? Thermostat and water pump are not the biggest costs. I agree IMS can be assessed the next clutch replacement. Third radiator is not necessary.
To be honest, my car was hitting 110C (230F) indicated on the track in the summer without the 3rd radiator and I have been quite convinced that these cars were running hot.
Then I discovered actual water temps were quite a bit lower when checked via the ODBII or Durametric software. So now I�m curious to track again and monitor real temps rather than the factory gauges.
Guess maybe i will have to join the club. I just always thought thoses kinda of clubs were all people who held their noses up like snobs and drove $200,000 911's. I'm just a hard working mechanic who wouldnt be able to afford a Porsche unless i could fix it myself......But the thought i tracking the car sounds fun as hell. Maybe i should get involved.
I didnt even think about the screens. I got all done a about 9pm, cleaned up and then was sitting in bed watching videos and saw someone else who put screens. I guess i should have watched the videos before. Always next time.
I'm not sure i understand the whole issue with the temps. The fans are not even comanded to come on until about 215 degrees. Most cars on the road run 200 to 225 actual temps while driving.
Well, this is a public forum. Where people come to give free advice. Some people are engineers, and understand thermodynamics, heat stress, metalurgy, and how it is affected by temperature. If Porsche says you can run your car at 215F, then you can run your car at 215F. Go right ahead. I will guarantee that you will never have a D chunk, spun bearing, dropped valve, cylinder crack, head crack, or one of the other 842 failure modes on the M96 engine. In fact, I think you should actually go hotter. Take out the t-stat and find or make a hotter one, and install that. Cuz - if some heat is ok, then more heat must be better.
Have a nice day.
out
funny, i was actually asking because i was interested in hearing an educational response. But instead i got a smartass response. Thank you for your assistance in educating us on why we should lower the temps.
Actually around here there are PCA members that drive $200,000+ Porsche GT3s, RSes, GT2s, etc...but they will stand around and talk to me about my 16 year old $20K Porsche 996 that I only own because I could fix the minor issues it had myself.
They’re even cool with me about my unusual mods.
It might not be their style, but they applaud me for making it mine.
I thought they wouldn’t accept me, because I’m just a regular guy.
Turns out they’re regular guys...with a lot more money.
They buy the toys I would be buying if I had their cash.
There are also lots of DIYers, and DIY-want-2-be guys.
If you’re a technician they will want your help with their cars.
I sometimes just sit and watch them work in my garage with my tools and offer advice when they run into problems.
They’re just normal guys too.
I’m a tool *****, so I’ve got almost everything needed for working on just about anything.
No, I have. Read though countless threads about temperature and read all the Hartech white papers, listened to Jake. And then discovered that my DME reported temps are 10-15 colder than what the gauge reads. So all this worry about temps and my coolant wasn�t even hitting 100C most of the time on the track.
a deep sump will not protect you from anything. The position of the oil pick up is flawed and a deeper sump will not remedy that, eventually the oil-level will drop too low. We managed to see significant oil pressure drops on the street. At least such that you have to be worried.
When talking to the guys that develop deep sump kits eventually when you keep asking all of them will admit that it is not 100% safe and you need a accusump.
Not true. Just because you want to engineer a swinging oil pickup or over-engineer some solution to a perceived problem which was discussed at length on another thread, the fact is that there are hundreds, if not close to a 1000 people running our 2 quart deep sump with race oil with zero issues. We stopped offering the Accusump at the same time we released the 2 quart deep sump as it was far more effective than an Accusump. Opinion is opinion and fact is fact. Just because you think the 2 quart deep sump doesn't work doesn't mean it is so.
Or you can just run the car as is. I�ve done 2 DE events and May do one or 2 a year going forward. �They� say you can get oil starvation even on street tires. Im running at lime rock and maybe im not good enough or the track is in a way I haven�t seen a drop in pressure. For a DE event every now and then no deep sump for me. As time goes on and I get better maybe I�ll add one. But plenty of people track their cars without a deep sump and haven�t blown up an engine... fingers crossed it stays that way
Truth be told, it's very hard to get oil starvation with Porsche N-spec street tires. You cannot pull enough Gs. It takes a really skilled driver and very specific conditions to see a dip in oil pressure. Road America in the Carousel is one such place. The 1/2 quart deep sump is good for 1/2 bar increase in pressure through the Carousel in those conditions, running Mobil 1.
The less spoken about issue is oil aeration and thinning at high temps experienced on track that coupled with starvation caused major engine damage. 200 treadwear or stickier tires compound this issue and at that point, a 1/2 quart deep sump, even with X51 baffle, is useless, requiring more drastic changes like a race oil and 2 quart deep sump.
Using a quality oil and changing it more often is wise, even with street tires, and especially if you are DE'ing the car. Take your pick of factory approved 5w40 oils if you are set on using an A40-approved oil, like Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40.
One or two DEs a year - I agree, not going to be a major issue. I had pressure drops on all season tires (long, sweeping high G right handers will do it).
No offence meant and no offence taken. The swinging oil pick up was just an idea. I know there is no space for it to swing freely all around. Otherwise it might would work perfectly just as it works in the Hayabusa wet sump. But it is nice to notice you still remember and refer to it. Means you are curious about the outcome and possible findings?
And I want to acknowledge that the deep sump kits are a nice piece of engineering. No bad word about that further!
It is just that we see oil pressure drops significantly on the street with long fast +180 degree curves. We have them here as long as 270 degrees. And yes you are right it will not happen at the track as those you don�t have on the track. But the deep sump will eventually give oil shortage at the central pick-up at these long curves.
Also we should agree that the main problem is not a shortage of oil in the sump but that the combination of oil not returning fast enough and oil �swinging� out of reach under lateral acceleration (g-force) will make the oil pick up start to suck up foam and air eventually as the oil level falls at the location of the oil pick up. So the problem is shortage at the pick up. There is still plenty of oil in the sump on either side depending on the curve being left or right.
So an oil pick up with a possibility to suck up oil in the left/center/right side (not all of them at once) of the sump will remedy the problem. There where the oil goes. In that case it will even help building up oil pressure as the slightly extra hydrostatic pressure due to the higher oil column will further help the oil pump take in the oil into the engine.
Maybe we can say the deep sump kit is over-engineering the actual problem? Trying to keep oil in a location where it want to flow away. But even up till now we just could not find the perfect solution for it to get the oil there where it flows.
Thank you for the clarification.
The tandem scavenge pumps that were used on the 3.4 X51 RoW and later 3.6 X51 engines helped with the scavenging. We produced these pumps after Porsche discontinued their version.
Problem is cost and on a 996, there isn't room for both pumps. They fit Boxsters and Caymans better. Also, you have to put an electric vacuum brake booster pump in if you delete the factory pump. Lots of complexity.
Jerry Woods built a dry sumped M96 engine with an external belt driven pump, but again, cost is a huge consideration here.
If you do look, there is a swinging pickup that was patented many years ago. Lots of moving parts and complexity, but it has been done.
Race oil can prevent the aeration of oil which is a huge problem with these engines.
Hi Charles, quick reply from you! I was still editing my post. Working from a mobile phone is terrible.
I edited my post above that a swinging oil pick up is nothing new. See the reference to the Hayabusa.
As soon as I bought a car that I really liked, about which I dreamed since 15 y.o , I first started repairing it. I have been repairing it for more than 3 years. I was looking for original parts, good car mechanics and saved money for it. After the repair, I dreamed of riding it. I was looking for a cheap insurance for a long time, because my car was quite old, the price of insurance in my region at a very high price. I can recommend you to look for a profitable insurance offer here
https://www.generalinsurance.com/
. All services of insurance companies are collected on this service. I know that many companies offer advantageous terms to new customers. After registration of insurance and major repairs of my car, I have been driving my car for 3 years.
Congrats on your new car!
I'm not sure if paddle tensioners and/or timing chains apply to your engine, but see my thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...day-today.html
Failure to replace these items caused my engine to grenade.
Bill
