What do you all think of this 996 C4S?

Hi Everyone, I have been searching for a new (to me) Porsche for the last few months now. After a failed PPI on a low mileage 996, a dealer who refused to let me get a PPI, and two cars that I lost because I was not quick enough to put down a deposit, I am still searching...I found this one yesterday, and it appears to be a nice example of a 996 with some pretty good options. What do you all think of the vehicle and the price (seems high to me but I don't know what is fair)? I am hoping to stay in the high 20-low 30k range for my next car, and it seems that finding a clean 997 manual coupe is not so easy in that range. I am open to any advice you have regarding my first 911 purchase! https://www.paulmillerporsche.com/in...aa29933s622213 Thanks, Alan

Well, looking at the CarFax, it looks like a pretty nice car. But I think it is overpriced, even for a low mileage C4S. But it is a really nice example. If it were me, I'd try to talk them down using the IMS as a bargaining chip. Then if I bought it, I'd install an IMS Solution and then drive the heck out of it! I was also looking in the same range last year, and leaning toward a 997 and then my 996.2 with 50K miles popped up on Facebook for $20K. I had the cash available and jumped at it...after it passed my inspection. (visual, talking to the owner, and Durametric)

Love the color. Low miles some will say good. Some will say bad. Will the dealer show you the maintenance records? Will the dealer give you previous owner name and number so you could call and discuss car? Priced too high. I bought my 2005 996 C4S with 50k miles in 2014 and paid less than $34k. Mine grew up in TX so less opportunity for bad weather driving. Seal gray over black, no records, but clean and passed a PPI. Speaking of PPI will dealer let you have someone else do a PPI? We are rapidly closing in on Fall when prices typically dip for the winter. I'm guessing the dealer doesn't have over $30k in it. Squeeze them!

That's an amazing car! Love the color and the rear. I love good deals too, but someone is going to grab that car. Go to dealership and be ready to buy if they accept your offer. I'm not saying don't get a PPI... perhaps you require dealer to allow a Rennlister to check it out and also require sump plate be removed to check for debris while you are there. Perhaps a Rennlister could go for a drive with you and a Durametric to check for overrevs. Good luck!

Love the color but the gray interior lets it down I have the gray in my car and wish I had different color but everything thing else about my car was right

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I am betting that you are right re the 30k number. I would get it checked out of course, but I haven't spoken to the dealer yet to ask about a PPi and pricing. I haven't had any luck with dealers or shops giving me owner info to talk with them about their vehicles unfortunately. It would definitely be helpful. I will speak with them tomorrow and keep you all updated. What would be a fair price with/without IMS fix?

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based on carfax info, condition of car in photos, and if I was specifically looking for a 4S, $30-32k. With those miles, I'd do the imsb right away. If you ca be all in with the LN retrofit for >$35k I'd be happy. Life is short. Can always make more $$😎

I am not a big fan of dealership vehicles. I rather private party with receipts. This is on the high side of the mileage. I would rather get a higher mileage 997. This is absolutely gorgeous though, but you are edging closer to the Turbo price range.

Here is a good comparison. A couple of days ago, a blue, stick, with grey interior '04 C4S sold on Bring a Trailer for $28,000. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...carrera-4s-11/ It's not the same car, but very close. Sport techno wheels, the "S" is red, quad exhaust tips -- otherwise seems like the same thing.

Do you need all wheel drive?

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I saw this car. Whoever bought it paid 28k plus the 5% auction fee, so more like 29.4. I agree the spec itself is nearly identical.That said, I�m asking because it�s hard to compare a low mileage one owner example with another that had seven owners and 20k more on the clock. I don�t need all wheel drive but do love the look of the c4sc primarily because of the rear end (widebody/reflector across the back).

One owner, serviced at same Porsche dealership being sold at gets a bit more $$ than a 7 owner 20k more mile car sold private party in my book. Its a good reference point, though. haven't looked lately, but when I was, it took about $50k plus, for a clean, no issues manual TT coupe under 70k miles. Great car for sure, but lot more than $35k. Just my experience. Good luck! Hope it works out.

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The C4S is obviously a gorgeous car, and if you live in an environment where you get a dozen more drives a year out of it because it is AWD absolutely it's the right choice. However if you live in a moderate climate, I personally think you're missing out a bit. I've had both C4S and RWD 996.

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I never did either until I told a dealer "I wish to speak to the previous owner or I'm not willing to buy this car." and walked out. They called me within an hour. One even used the "We bought this at auction and no way could we find the previous owner."...but they did! It has worked on two dealers since then. Both previous owners were happy to talk about their previous ride. Try it you might be surprised!

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Says the guy who lives in Hotlanta! ...and yes I'm jealous! The AWD drive system is really for getting you around a track better. The front wheel drive coupling only transfers more up front when it heats up from being "exercised". A lot of owners use their cars year round, C4's and C2's. They get the appropriate wheels/tires and say the cars are good on moderate snow. I have never tried but believe them. Remember these are not going to behave like an F250 with lock- outs in snow. In fact I've read you can burn the front drive disk out by getting stuck and trying to spin the wheels out of the situation. Mine winters in the garage. Two reasons: I don't want to get stuck and there are idiot drivers around here in the winter. I don't want some doofus to run into my car because they don't know how to drive in winter.

If you're looking for a C4S, I believe there's an Orient Red one with low miles for sale on AutoTrader. I believe it's located in the San Fernando Valley area. It was a non-aerokit car, but had a Carerra Aerokit wing installed.

IMO gray with Midnight Blue is a very nice combination. Install a few carbon fiber accent pieces and some black floormats and it's perfect. I may be biased as that's what I have (though mine is a Turbo ).

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To be clear, this was at dealers that had previously serviced the car but were not the dealers selling the car. Unfortunately, I did not have that kind of leverage since they would be doing me a favor with no chance of a sale or any service.

Assuming its mechanically sound and doesn't need anything expensive (clutch, tires, engine, etc) its pretty good, but probably overpriced. I'd say that car for 35k WITH the IMS solution is a good price. Having it installed runs 3-5k depending on where you go, so I'd say if you can buy it for $30k or less, you're in REALLY good shape. I haven't priced them in a few years, so I can't speak to that. But, I will say that $30k is the realistic price for a well sorted C4S with mid to high miles - not necessarily 'purchase' price, but the price you should expect to be at when its all said and done. My $21.5k, 86k mile C4S turned into a $30k car in the blink of an eye. Cheers Charlie

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I guess I assume the AWD gets you a few more drives because mine came from the Sierra Nevada Mountains before I brought it down south. The previous owner had let me know how much usage he got out of it in the mountain climates which makes complete sense. Mine was a 2002 and it was gorgeous, however I didn't see any advantage in handling/spirited driving performance with AWD. I actually thought it felt a bit heavy/sluggish/floaty, which was ultimately the reason I parted with it.

I put a deposit on the car, pending the completion of ims, rms, and clutch job. They sales advisor said the used car manager was not available today but would get back to me tomorrow regarding their decision. At least no one else can buy it yet, and I�ll have a chance to get it.

I don't see it listed in the ad, but that car also has PSE. With the low mileage, I doubt the dealer is going to let it go for less than $32-33k.

Could you explain how you k ow it has PSE? I didn�t see it in the build sheet. Thanks!

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Second to last picture in the ad shows the PSE switch on the dash.

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nice catch! My '03 is bottom right. This car got Much better! Good luck!

Congrats and good luck getting it bought and home. It's a beautiful car and you'll love the 996 C4s. A bit more perspective on purchase price, i do agree with others that it's high and there are smarter purchases to be had elsewhere -- but if you're in love, who cares about $$$? I think folks tend to pay too much attention to miles on these cars. They will never be collector cars, so who cares about resale. And even a 996 w/ 10k mi is still a nearly 20 year old car -- so regardless of mileage, many many parts will need to be replaced. I bought an '03 for $22k (had 97k mi on it) after it passed a PPI w/ flying colors as that seemed to make the most sense to me. Sure I've replaced a bunch of parts on it, but so will anyone w/ my ethos of car ownership buying an 18 year old car... regardless of miles. Btw, if it doesn't work out, the car that islaTurbine mentioned earlier in this thread is here . I LOVE the color combo, particularly the interior. A friend told me a few years ago that interior color is more important than exterior, cause you can't look at the outside of the car while you're driving it.... so true, and this would be THE choice of interior colors for the 996 IMHO.

My $.02 on purchasing a 996 with the original IMSB. I'm in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" camp. If the car as the original IMSB, and you're purchasing from a dealer, and you're worried about the IMSB, get the dealer to include a 3 or 6 month drivetrain warranty (probably a 3rd party service contract) if they don;t already include one. I got one when I brought my 04 C4S almost five years ago, and it gave me the chance to change and check the oil for evidence of impending failure prior to the service contract expiration (no evidence found.) Since then I continue to change and check the oil regularly (at my indy) and haven't lost any sleep worrying about IMSB failure, just enjoying the car. Actually I'd recommend the warranty for piece of mind when purchasing from a dealer even if the IMSB has been changed as there is always a chance is wasn't done 100% correctly and there are other modes of engine/transmission failure it could cover. A good dealer will already include one as it is a small price to pay to make a sale IMO.

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I agree on asking about a warranty but whole-heartedly disagree with your choice in handling the IMS bearing. If the IMS bearing is original, the rear main seal and clutch have a higher chance of being original as well. You're on track to pay for the repairs by replacing the oil more often anyway and will still run the risk of the IMS bearing failing. Not only that, knowing that the IMS bearing is an issue many people know about, might as well use it as a negotiating tool with the price and then get it changed.We all know that this failure can lead to a $15K+ repair bill or loss. Not worth the risk, especially when you can get the clutch and RMS seal replaced at the same time. I must admit this though. The ONLY reason why I own 996s is because of the high engine failure rate. I love buying cars in need of major repairs. It allows me to pull the engine and fix all of the known issues at once, all at a reduced price. I got all 3 of my 911s for around $15K less than the going rate. Anyway, I am glad this car sold for over $30K. That means the values aren't going down.

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Me too! Less than 8% people! That means 92% possibility of not failing! Hysteria I tell you...Hysteria!

I view the IMS as a wear item on the car. Its like timing belt recommendation for cars with timing belt. It may snap at 100k miles, or you may be good for 300k miles and it never snap, but the manufacturers recommend around 100k miles. If only Porsche had recommended this for around 7 years, 100k miles, then no one would have anything to say. It may last much longer, but it is recommended for piece of mind. It is no secret that the rubber seal will dry out, and oil will get in. There is no such thing as permanent seal for the IMS. After you find out about the real reason why they fail, you can see the logic to why it makes sense to use the IMS bearing without the stupid rubber 'lifetime' seal they have on it, which is not so much lifetime.. In any case, if people with failed IMS did not exist, I would not have been able to afford my 911. I started from a Boxster, got hooked and I moved up to a 911, and now, I am a lifelong Porsche enthusiast, and will only move up from here... so thank you for all who had failed IMS... You allowed me to have my dream car.

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I agree with your above. In addition to those who lost the IMSB, those who panicked after witnessing the failures further impacted the 996 value. I'm not saying it is not right to change the IMSB. I'm just saying I plan to let mine ride. If it pukes the engine I am fortunate to be able to replace the engine and move on. To each his/her own. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

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Fair point on the seals. Certainly in a purchasing scenario if there's a leak in that area it's an opportunity to address it and other items. I should have mentioned that due to a leak, the dealer I bought my car from had replaced the RMS, IMS flange seal and clutch prior to my purchase. I also acknowledge that the IMSB should be treated as a wear item and plan to address it when the clutch next needs replacing, probably just prior to hitting the 100k mi mark (assuming I still have the car at that point.) Until then I'll continue to change the oil regularly and keep an eye out for debris in the filter.

Like the color. Looks clean but definitely a bit pricey for an 03 coupe. For me it wasn't and but I had to have the wider hips. If the dealer won't let you take the car to local independent porsche shop for a ppi then I would really consider looking elsewhere. The should realize the importance of this.

$10k over value..

If you are interested on a red C4S, I know of one that will be on sale shortly at a reasonable price since the current owner got a beautiful 996 Turbo in speed yellow last week.

**Update** The dealer agreed to the terms of our deal and I will be getting the car on August 25th, when I head to NJ to visit my family. They will be doing the IMS, RMS, and clutch, in addition to a minor service and a brand new set of tires. I will also be getting the full service records from that dealer to go along with the car. I couldn't be more excited! Thank you all for the help as I navigate through this process. Best, Alan

Congrats! Just remember to drive it like you stole it!

NICE! Enjoy the car.

Congratulations! Very nice car.

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Lowpue - please email me some info on the C4S. Thanks

Hi Everyone, I have been eagerly awaiting next Saturday (its getting close)! In the meantime, I have been spending tons of time researching the 996 and C4S in particular. Given the car's age, what should I expect to replace in terms of rubber components (motor mounts, suspension bushings, etc). Additionally, I did not see anything in the service records with regard to the cooling system, so I am assuming it has the original coolant, coolant tank, water pump, etc. Are these things I should replace preventatively or address during regular service intervals? What should I prioritize? My plans are to keep the car mostly original, with the exception of installing a new headunit, 997 shifter, clear sidemarkers, and probably a light ceramic tint to protect the interior (35-50%). Thanks again for the help!

That�s precisely what I did. Refreshed the entire coolant system (coolant tank/cap, thermostat, water pump, hoses and a coolant flush and refill). Then did a clutch, aos, imsb and rms. Every bulb inside and out. Now working on the other the rubber bits underneath in the form of inner/outer boots, motor mounts and suspension bits. Then brakes. Then wait for something to break (and enjoy in the meantime), congrats and enjoy in good health.

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I agree with most people on this forum and say the C4S is by far the best looking 996. I just wish it had the mezger engine. Anyway, I've owned a lot of old sports cars and the consistent theme is that everything made of plastic and/or rubber is more than likely deteriorated, thus needing replacement. Most of what I've seen is in the suspension. Check the rubber components on the drop links and control arms. Test drive the vehicle and go over speed bumps. You'll get weird knocking sounds and sometimes squeaking sounds. These are all telltale signs of age. I learning about these cars just like you and it seems you have a good list of things to check.

Some friendly advice. Before you sign and drive away, make sure you do the following. Turn the car on and let it warm up a bit. Make sure the oil gauge on the dash is working correctly and shows the right level. Check for air-bag & engine lights on the dash. Make sure the door windows drop a bit and go back up when you open and close the doors. Verify that the frunk and trunk open and close correctly. Make sure on both seats the electric functions all work properly. Check all the lights, blinkers etc. Check the reverse lights. Verify that the wipers work. The next step is very important. Take it for a good drive with the radio off and row through the gears (including reverse) and make sure the clutch and shifter feel perfect. The clutch should not feel heavy, it should feel smooth and easy to depress. Listen very closely for noises from the transmission and the front differential. If you hear anything weird or feel something is not quite right - then do not sign that paper. Replacing the IMS, RMS & Clutch is not an easy job and things can go wrong and when they do, it is not an easy fix. Just make sure everything is perfect regarding the transmission, clutch and front differential before you sign the dotted line. Let us know how it works out.

That is a bit of hyperbole. Replacing the clutch, IMS and RMS is actually an easy job. It is just time consuming, so if you are paying for labor it is costly. It is neither hard nor complex.

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As part of the deal, the IMS, RMS, and clutch are being replaced this week with oem parts (except IMS). I confirmed with the dealer that the IMS replacement part is an LN Engineering ceramic unit, not the larger Porsche one. Thanks for the other tips, I will be sure to do all of the above when I go to see the car. As of now, they only have my deposit, so worst case I am not going to be out much money, if at all, if the car was misrepresented in any way.

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Whoa, are you saying that the dealership (I assume a Porsche dealership) is going to install an LN engineering bearing and not a OEM part?

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Both porsche dealerships in mpls and st paul mn are owned by same company. Mpls porsche wouldn't do anything other than OEM replacement, there is no porsche OEM retrofit part. St Paul Porsche was willing to install LN retrofit. 😒

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good luck Saturday! That's a sweet 4S.

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Porsche does or did offer an OEM Bearing.

Yes, I was pleased that the part was an LN IMS. I believe many Porsche dealers were replacing with the larger single row oem bearing, but I confirmed this is not the case for my car.

Larger IMSB requires engine out, cases split. I doubt many dealers are willing to do that.

How was the drive home?😎

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Yes, don�t leave us hanging!

Unless i missed another post, sounds like this all happening 8/25, so next Sat, not this passed... hope it all works out!

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That is correct. Less than 5 days left to go!

Picked her up this weekend! I don't have enough great things to say about my purchase experience with Paul Miller Porsche. They had me in and out in under 1.5 hours (with my test drive) and did some extra work to the car that was over and above what we had agreed to in our deal to ensure I was happy (refinished all four wheels, new slave cylinder, new battery). Aaron was my sales guy and made sure I was well taken care of. Initial impressions: The steering is razor sharp (better than anything I have driven in recent memory aside from a new Audi R8), its very easy to drive and was pretty comfortable on my 200 mile trip home, the Porsche Sport Exhaust has exceeded every expectation I had, and the car still gets a lot of attention! Overall, I am thrilled with this car. Okay, onto the pics! When I first saw it: Three generations of C4S's together: After I picked her up:

Congrats. Looks amazing

Brilliant purchase! Love the color. Enjoy every minute of ownership.

Wow! Gorgeous car. PSE is so nice. I love turning it on exiting the neighborhood in the morning. I've had good luck with dealerships on 'special' cars. Sounds like your sales guy 'gets it' and the dealership did too. Probably why the previous owner purchased, serviced and traded there. Congratulations! Well bought.