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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHMetal flakes in filter...
Leading reported evidence
Replace ims
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No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
IMS was replaced by previous owner but not with the oil fed line.
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Suggestion
The m96 is an engineering challenge, but IMHO not a "disposable" engine...There are many ways to "repair" things that are not so obvious,but can be done or that don't have a commercial/bussiness model so that it is well known and profitable..
Leading evidence: 'Replace ims' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Repair " things' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion
The m96 is an engineering challenge, but IMHO not a "disposable" engine...There are many ways to "repair" things that are not so obvious,but can be done or that don't have a commercial/bussiness model so that it is well known and profitable..
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I did one change after this with liquid moly plus ceratec, then 2 changes with DT40 and I can not find a single flake.
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Suggestion
what vital components have been confirmed to be damaged by bore scoring that wouldn�t be replaced during a rebuild?
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Suggestion · Original poster
Multiple oil changes later and no flakes can be found.
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Repair " things
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
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Suggestion
The m96 is an engineering challenge, but IMHO not a "disposable" engine...There are many ways to "repair" things that are not so obvious,but can be done or that don't have a commercial/bussiness model so that it is well known and profitable..
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
37 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Generation: 20261026T063944Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
Hi there. Doing my second oil change now that I have owned my 02 C2 and I found about 5-10 metal flakes in filter. They are metallic. Am I screwed? Car has 55k on it. IMS was replaced by previous owner but not with the oil fed line.
I also have this exhaust rattle at start up that I think is my PSE mufflers broken but now I'm wondering if that's related.
Any advice greatly appreciated. Love this car.
Those flakes are Ferroprint piston skirt material - the beginning stage of cylinder bore scoring.
Don't hide your head in the sand, get the car scoped to see what the cylinder bores look like and be ready to make some serious decisions moving forward.
Different scenario. Car was driven more than average by the original owner - about 120K miles when it started misfiring about 3 years ago.
Grant it, the bore scoring problem probably started years prior because it was in the advanced stage of scoring when discovered. And yes, the block is in the process of being reconditioned with Nickie's cylinders by LN.
No... exhaust rattle would not be connected to bore scoring, but you will get excessive soot usually on Bank2's exhaust. The advanced stages of bore scoring will have a noticeably loud ticking noise from piston slap.
Again, I would say the best way to know where you're at with the problem, is by either bore scoping through the spark plugs holes or through the sump.
This question is not rhetorical.
If you already own the engine what does scoping the cylinders really do for you?
I see a definite advantage to knowing pre purchase but afterwards not so much.
I have not done mine so maybe I�m missing the advantage in it.
Then you know exactly how far it has progressed and can help you make better decisions going forward. If the scoring is in the very early stages then you can take some action to buy you some more time before having to rebuild or if its so advanced you that you should drastically limit how much you drive it so as to lessen potential catastrophic failure. More information is almost always better.
Both my mother and sister got breast cancer at the same time. The doctors told both of them to NOT wait because the cancer growth was small and they could beat it with treatment. My sister waited, my mother didn't. My sister died less than two years after diagnosis. My mother took the treatment and beat it. She is still going strong. That was four years ago.
Cylinder bore scoring is like a cancer and if your engine have been confirmed to have the early stages of the problem, then don't wait. You could risk damage to other vital components and even worse.
It's possible. But only one way to know exactly where you stand. I rebuilt the engine in my 03 C4S last October. Nickies from LN and had Hoffman Machine do their magic with the heads. Addressed the other weak links "while in their". Went 3.6 --> 4.0. It was expensive, but holy smokes does the car RIP now. Couldn't be happier with the decision to do it and I couldn't put a price tag on the confidence and the feeling of accomplishment that came from having rebuilt the engine myself.
I have no clue of your financial situation but if you scope it and see little to no scoring then there are some things you can do to slow the progression (search to find loads of info on that) buying you a little bit of time to plan and save.
Thanks to all the replies. Its weird tho because the car does drive fine with no other symptoms of bore score except the metal that does look like Ferroprint. What I was reading elsewhere is when there is ferrous metal with lines it is severe bore scoring. I just can't believe that. Car also wasn't a true cold weather car. Virginia and Nebraska, now NC.
My car drove fine too. I had severe scoring on cyl. 4&6, mild scoring on cyl 5&1. There are PCA videos and Jake Raby/Flat Six Innovations videos on youtube that do a great job explaining bore scoring causes, symptoms and solution.
The better way of saying it is... What engine components are reused but could be potentially downed upon inspection during a rebuild?
Answer - the big one is the crankshaft. An extremely costly part and can easily add another $6,000+ to the rebuild process. Another are the camshafts. Remember, when you lose the piston skirt coating, you're getting Al to Al contact. The scoring process is like a cheese grader shedding metal into the oil which turns it into liquid sand paper. These engines have tight tolerances. Metal laden oil will work to permanently damage the journals of the crankshaft, lobes of the camshaft, IMS bearings, etc. Over time, metal could build up and clog oil passageways leading to a catastrophic event (like on the track) where the much needed oil is blocked.
Sorry to hear John. I would get the bores scoped to see how bad and how much time you have. Plenty if FSI videos on the topic and what to do with oil and procedures to prolong life until you are ready to rebuild. Sounds to me like you have a keeper regardless. We all will be facing a rebuild someday. Looking forward to learning about your journey.
I found a similar piece when I cut my oil filter this last change. When I did plugs a couple of months ago I had a look in the bores and they all looked totally normal. I am switching from Driven DT40 to DT50 oil. Car only has 62k miles, I'm the second owner and has been owned in AZ and TX it's whole life so it has never seen cold weather. It must just be a matter of time and not mileage. If I hadnt cut the filter open, I would never know anything is up. I wonder how many cars out there are driving around with this coating missing from the skirts for years, with happily oblivious owners before ever developing actual bore scoring. I've made peace with the fact that the process has started, and will just rebuild it when the time comes. In the meantime, its only a weekend toy, so I'm just going to keep enjoying the car for twisty road rips and hope I have some time before I need to dump the $30K into a proper build.
I'm kind of thinking same thing. Will scope bores when I do plugs here shortly and spoke to my buddy who works on these cars for a living and builds these cars for customers for track use and his whole theory was "hey if you have no oil consumption, noises, etc, just drive it". He also said same thing, how many people are actually ripping apart oil filters. I will rebuild but not right away on a few pieces of metal. Also just put 4 hours and 250 miles on car over weekend and no oil consumption what's so ever.
I just wanted to update anyone that was interested in this post in the past. I have done 2 oil changes since this change and 1st of the 2 had maybe 2 total pieces of metal in the oil. I added ceratec that time with liqui moly 5w40. I just changed it today and could not find any metal at all. I also just switched over to DT40 as it seems to be the best oil for these engines.
Just an update for anyone that has something similar that happens. Multiple oil changes later and no flakes can be found. I did one change after this with liquid moly plus ceratec, then 2 changes with DT40 and I can not find a single flake. Have magnetic drain plug and bore scoped (from spark plug side) and can't see and scoring. I'm sure there is some sort of scoring in here but I switch oils and religiously change oil at 3k. I'm happy I didn't freak out and go straight to rebuild.
Did you scope all cylinders especially 5 and 6?
As I mentioned before, the loss of the Ferroprint piston skirt material is the beginning stage of the problem. As it starts to flake off, the scoring will begin and leave what looks like minor scuff marks on the cylinder walls. As the problem progresses, you'll lose more skirt material. Remember the skirt material prevents metal-to-metal contact. Once you lose it, game over. My guess is that lots of people wait until they get the ticking sound from piston slap or the dreaded CEL when the engine is gulping oil.
But if you have a all-clear on the bore scope inspection, then you have time to make a decision about the engine. In the meantime, use the right oil and send your old oil to Speediagnostix for trend analysis.
Watch this video...
You Tube
Completely ignorant question here but when my engine failed (still investigating root causes) my Indy found a ton of metal flaking in the oil but made a note of them being Magnetic.
is there any further information to be gained from knowing whether the OPs Metal flakes are magnetic?
Maybe another stupid question, but if caught extremely early on, can't one get away with "just" changing the pistons? Is that doable without splitting the crankcase? Or are the rod bolts impossible to access?
In any case, good luck to OP, I hope he keeps documenting what he sees as this'll help people weigh their options further down the road.
You have to split the case to get to the crank carrier. Then the crank carrier has to be split to get to the rod bolts. And "just" changing the pistons is not really a thing to do. Most 996 engines will have the cylinders ovaled to the point the new pistons and rings would not seat appropriately. By the time you take it that far apart - it should be done correctly.
-Tom
2003 C2
The only time I see large ferrous "chunks" is from a failed IMS bearing or damaged or broken crankshaft. Typically IMS bearing rears its ugly head as ferrous silver glitter.
If you see copper color in the filter or oil, that's main and rod bearings - engine is toast.
If the oil is "sooty", it's likely loss of ring seal. You typically won't see the soot unless you drop the oil pan and see it accumulated there.
Just for the record, as painful as it is, the
M96 engine block is a 1 time use block
that can NOT be rebuilt in normal engine rebuild terms.
Most all other normal engines can on their first rebuild be honed with new pistons, or bored out with new pistons for a relatively inexpensive rebuild. NOT true for a M96. Yes the m96 block can be
re-engineered
$$$$ with a very lot of machine shop work and new hard plated cylinder sleeves machined/coated/precisely pressed in.
I'll even go 1 step further, the
M96 block structure is defective
. Any cylinder block that very prematurely goes out of round, D-chunks, easily cracks, easily scores/destroys cyl eventually to the point of becoming an oil pump, many times at very low miles, & is not rebuildable,, is defective imo and many other engine builders opinion also...
so 1 time use is a very generous label
for the m96.
jmnsho
The m96 is an engineering challenge, but IMHO not a "disposable" engine...There are many ways to "repair" things that are not so obvious,but can be done or that don't have a commercial/bussiness model so that it is well known and profitable..
I'll bet you could even do it, or have it done inexpensively...The thing is most machine shops and engine builders have all the work they can do and then some, and are very comfortable with what they are doing....So getting them to do something they haven't done before takes a lot of effort/persuasion, and you have to take all the risk plus tell them exactly what to do..
For instance
The Cylinders can be re-rounded and a support ring around the top can be done at little cost....Hartech used to do this for $60 a cylinder about 6 years ago, but have gone to a much more expensive process now like the process LN has done for so long..
And Kolbenschmit ( the ones who make the blocks for Porsche) have a handbook on Aluminum Engine Reconditioning .....It can be done just like the old Chevy Vega aluminum engines with Reynolds 390 ( Alusil) could be done,, but most machine shops either considered them throwaways, or put iron sleeves in them...
Jarno in the Netherlands and Vision in the US do Wet IRon liners sucessfully..
I talked to a fellow the other day that has a 4.5 litter Custom Crankshaft for the M96 and also has files for Billit cases !!!
So there are some "Frugal Ways" to rebuild the M96's, but it will all be on you,...... and there will be more high $$ Custom Stuff available as well
Yes, I agree the m96 engine is not a disposable engine, but the block is a 1 time use as it sits without extensive re-engineering. And imo, it is a defective sports car engine design as engines go, just like the oil burning alusil vega you mention was. I remember those Vega''s with a trail of blue smoke following them around...lol Those Vega engine were terrible. They were suppose to be half of a v8 with the newest and best cylinder new technology....
