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YOUR RESEARCH3.6 to 4.0l conversion, any recommendation?
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Clean block being built up
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Something about a dipped cleaned block being built up that's so purdy
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I decided to go with the ductile iron sleeves, which I know are used by many engine rebuilders on high performance engines.
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Suggestion
We always recommend upgrading the rods when going to a bore larger than 99mm OR if you plan on tracking the car.
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Suggestion · Original poster
There are a lot of 996 out there that have 100kmls+ and are still running smooth with original cylinder and IMSB.
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Suggestion · Original poster
If I get another 15years and 100,000mls out of the rebuild engine I can use my 50% savings for the Ductile sleeves vs the Nickies towards all the other repairs and maintenance I will face within the next 15years ownership.
If I get another 15years and 100,000mls out of the rebuild engine I can use my 50% savings for the Ductile sleeves vs the Nickies towards all the other repairs and maintenance I will face within the next 15years ownership.
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Greetings everyone and welcome to my first thread!!
Let me quickly introduce myself before going into details. As probably many of you I'm a Porsche enthusiast, love and at the same time also hate the challenges of these cars. I bought my first Porsche in 2005 (2001 996 3.4) and am addicted to Porsche since then. The same year I bought my first air cooled, a 1981 3.0SC with a bad engine for some hands-on. This was also my first engine rebuild from a total of 6 so far. All the other rebuilds were on the water-cooled M96 platform. I just love this engine, so simple and easy to work on.
My current project includes an engine rebuild of my 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S which I bought with a cracked cylinder. This will also be the first engine which I will rebuild with increased displacement.
My attitude is not to max everything out, keep some room for growth, so I decided to go with the 3.8l option. Apparently machine shop I used had a different opinion and accidently machined my engine cases to 101mm (4.0l). Well, I guess that's what you call destiny....
The increased displacement will be paired with a set of new Carrillo 101mm pistons. From what I've been told no other modifications are necessary for normal use.
Just wanted to hear about your opinion and experience, especially from members that have already done the conversion. Any ideas, recommendations?
Thank you!!
A few pics about my progress:
Don't everyone reply at once
Um interesting mistake. I converted a 3.6, check that, I paid LN Engineering to convert my 3.6 to a 3.8L, which also had a cracked cylinder. They also provided JE pistons and rings. If you havn't visited their website you may want to. When you say "From what I've been told no other modifications are necessary for normal use" that's simplifying things but is correct. Obviously there are many items to replace and restore during the rebuilding process. A member here did a great write up on one of his rebuilds using LN's nickies. Search "blown engine" here in the 996 forum. The post was made by cringley but Ahsai purchased his damaged engine and rebuilt it. One of the best threads you will read on rebuilding these engines. Ahsai was extremely thorough and applied knowledge he learned from taking Jake Raby's engine building class.
I shipped the cases to EBS RACING in Reno, NV.
I decided to go with the ductile iron sleeves, which I know are used by many engine rebuilders on high performance engines.
@flat6H
I'm considering having EBS sleeve and rebuild my 3.4 with cylinder bore scoring into a 3.6 or 3.8. Are you happy with their work? Talking to them, they seem fantastic, and their pricing seems fair.
Also, how did you make the decision between the ductile iron and Nickies sleeves? I'd like to spend a bit less - my car is a weekender, not for track use - but the comments about sleeves from Jake and Charles have gotten into my head and make me doubt the decision.
Is the choice between iron and nickies really a big saver in the big scheme of things?
If you replace all the wear items you should, what is your total percent saved? Does this percentage justify the risk?
Is it a �savings� to end up doing somethimg twice? People always seem to have the money to do the job twice, but complain about doing it right the first time. Amazing.
I�m pretty sure you know my position on this.... do you want to do open surgery once or twice? Although I�ve been told that�s a bad analogy by the naysayers. It�s really quite a good one. Your doing major surgery on your Porsche. Do you want to cut corners or save dimes or have the best engine rebuild possible?
I�m slowly acquiring tools to be able to attempt this on my own and that alone is a pretty big cost.
In all fairness, there are intelligent people recommending and doing both kinds of sleeving. There are few absolutes in the world. It isn�t like there is only one accepted way to resleeve engines, even on the 996. Sure, we have one of the leading experts here providing great advice, but other experts advise different approaches. What makes one more correct than the other? It seems reasonable that people about to spend many thousands ask these questions so they can come to a conclusion that they feel good about.
Expert is a pretty ambiguous term the way you are using it. Correctness is defined by proven repeated success in this case, to me. Your definition is clearly different. I�m not going to start in on thermal expansion rates of metals though and why dis-similar metals may not be best.
Your car, your money, your choice in the end though.
Not sure yet. I know they make a lot of claims. I have no clue how many successful M96 rebuilds they have, mileage on them, oil consumption etc. I know if I call the other guys they can quickly and easily answer these questions and I can read / get input from 100s of their happy customers.
So no I can�t quantify their expertise.
I just went to hartech.org, go read under new developments.... looks like they are going to nickies too. Gee maybe the other experts did know something....
The photos are kind of small of the new work; but it looks like you have fully wet liners in there now. I'm curious how did they seal the bottom to stop coolant passing to the oil? sometimes people put O-rings or gaskets in there.
I can't think of any other engine re-builds on this forum that put those kind of fully wet liners in (I've only been here 2 years); normally people press in dry liners into the AL cylinders. So I'm really curious how this works out. Good luck and a 4.0 sounds like a beast!!!
You guys start a complete new discussion....
What's better was not my original question but I'd be happy to share my reason and decision to go with Ductile instead of Nickies:
As everyone knows cracked cylinder is a known problem with these engines.
The Porsche is 15 years old and the cylinder cracked at 143,000mls (original case)! A Volvo is barely broken in at this mileage, but that's the risk (and the fun) you're taking buying a 996. There are a lot of 996 out there that have 100kmls+ and are still running smooth with original cylinder and IMSB.
If I get another 15years and 100,000mls out of the rebuild engine I can use my 50% savings for the Ductile sleeves vs the Nickies towards all the other repairs and maintenance I will face within the next 15years ownership.
A patent doesn't necessarily mean it's the better solution, but it's definitely a good marketing thing to justify the higher price.
Please refer to my last post in this thread:
As everyone knows cracked cylinder is a known problem with these engines.
The Porsche is 15 years old and the cylinder cracked at 143,000mls (original case)! A Volvo is barely broken in at this mileage, but that's the risk (and the fun) you're taking buying a 996. There are a lot of 996 out there that have 100kmls+ and are still running smooth with original cylinder and IMSB.
If I get another 15years and 100,000mls out of the rebuild engine I can use my 50% savings for the Ductile sleeves vs the Nickies towards all the other repairs and maintenance I will face within the next 15years ownership.
A patent doesn't necessarily mean it's the better solution, but it's definitely a good marketing thing to justify the higher price.
@flat6H
Thanks for your reply and my apologies for stirring up controversy to hijack your thread - not my intention. I'm just about to spend a bunch of money and have to make some of the same decisions as you, so I'm interested in why you made those choices.
I'm thinking through the cost-benefit analysis much the same way you have. My '99 has 70k miles on it and I will likely put 2k miles a year on it. If I can get even 50k miles out of the rebuild that's effectively the life of the car from my point of view. I'm not an automotive or materials engineer, but I manage technical projects for a living and I know that there is a point of diminishing returns on any project investment. It's just unclear where that line is for this engine rebuild project because there is no real data available on the life expectancy of ductile iron re-sleeved engine. In addition to price, the other factor is timeline. I called LN today and was told there was a 4 month wait to get Nickies installed. Living in Chicago, that means effectively missing the summer at this point.
Which ductile iron sleeves did you use? LA Sleeves, Darton, or something else? Per the comment above, the grooves on the outside of those sleeves make it look like they are maybe wet liners instead of press-fit dry liners.
@flat6H
I'm also thinking about the 99mm (in my case 3.4 > 3.6) vs 101mm bore (3.4 > 3.8). I was looking at LN's Nickies brochure and it seems that the only additional "beefing-up" they require with the larger bore is swapping out the factory connecting rods with aftermarket forged units. Have you decided what you are doing with rods on your build?
Hartech use Capricorn nikasil liners, Capricorn do a lot of F1 and Endurance car work, quality is top notch.
https://www.capricorngroup.net/en
Hartech close deck their engines, the open deck design is susceptible to bore scoring.
OP, Carillo rods are the way to go, granted rods do not fail that often but when your in there! - They are stronger, lighter and have superior fasteners.
Block turnaround for LN is typically 6-8 weeks, but if you inquired about an RND engine rebuilt, the estimate of four months would include time for engine disassembly, machining, and reassembly based on our current engine build backlog, however it may be quicker, however we err on longer time estimates to be on the safe side.
Eventually we will have stock of blocks to do on exchange to speed up the engine process, but we don't have an M96.01/02/04 3.4 996 block in stock at this time.
@Charles Navarro
For RND rebuilds, will you increase the displacement?
Since larger Nickies and pistons are the same price, I hope y'all would.
Any discounts if you already have the IMS Solution and LN 2qt deep sump installed and it's an elective rebuild?
Can Carillo rods be substituted?
With the RND program, it's just stock displacements. Eventually, we will have blocks already rebuilt and will do the cases on exchange, which will significantly speed up the rebuild process.
Of course, if you want to re-use your Solution and deep sump, that will drop the cost of the rebuild some. We can also substitute Carrillo rods for an added surcharge and coated bearings can also be selected. We know an RND engine won't be for everyone because of price point for sure.
@Charles Navarro
Thank you for the clarification. I did indeed inquire about bringing my car to your shop for an RND rebuild, since I'm in Chicago, and received the quote today. I misunderstood the timeline and will consider whether it's worth having another shop do the rebuild while sending the block to you.
Gotta admit it�s reassuring that, although our engines are rediculously overpriced to repair when the poo hits the rotary oscillator, we have men like Charles, JR, Lake, Jr and Baz who have the knowledge and systems in place to help us keep our autos under their own (much improved) power.
We always recommend upgrading the rods when going to a bore larger than 99mm OR if you plan on tracking the car. ARP rod bolts are pretty much standard on every rebuild otherwise.
