Higher copper levels in oil analysis

hey folks, sent out my oil at 30k miles on my 40AE (X51) for blackstone and the only thing they noted was copper values �not high enough to signal a problem� but wanted to get the crowds take on this. They were at 13ppm and Aluminum was at 7ppm. Tin and lead at zero so this is a bit unique based on all the other blackstones I reviewed. Does show much more like break-in and my two Porsche mechanics brushed it off as no problem. Pic attached. Anyone have thoughts? Just scheduled IMSS so obviously want to make sure all good in engine before hand. Also, new member, but long time Porsche owner and lurker. Thank you very much.

High copper indicates bearing wear.

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understand it could be bearings - at 13ppm does anyone have an opinion? They seem to say not high enough to worry and could be break-in but you how that goes.

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Well, not saying it is your bearings, but very little else is copper. Oil coolers use to be copper, but iirr not in the 996. Problem is, the copper part of a babbit bearing is under the tin babbit alloy coating of maybe 4-005" thick. So all the babbit at least in 1 spot would have to wear off to expose the next too the bottom copper part of the bearing shell. Then the copper would be exposed to wear off and be part of your oil analysis. After the copper coat is the steel shell. Next problem, bearing oil clearance is 1-.002". so if 4-.005" babbit has worn off to expose the copper coating part then your oil clearance is way out of spec at least in that 1 bearing(if thats all the bearings that are affected). What is your hot idle oil pressure without ac on. Do you routinely blast thru the twisties pulling continuous g's..? Do you see a pressure drop in hard long sweepers/corners...? Reason i ask, is this seems to be the m o for the m96 engine. First the bearing wear from 'oil instability' in corners takes its toll on bearings. Then hot idle op is low, showing there is problem, then eventually some m96 experience very bad things... If it were me, I'd watch it with hawk eyes, especially in the corners for op drop. Listen for knocks/engine noise. See if next oil analysis comes in the same or worse. Never know, if op is good, no engine noise, then 13ppm copper could just be a fluke or some type of external contamination. Wouldn't condemn it just from this 1 oil analysis. jmo

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thanks for details - my oil pressure never falls under 2 at idle, is very strong always 4 bar+ over 2k rpm with no drops at all in turns or unless I go into neutral, and I haven�t burned a drop. Also Tin is at 0 ppm which I�d think would be above zero if rod bearings� I�m definitely hoping this is a fluke because the car runs great. Should I postpone IMS to figure this out or numbers not high enough to warrant that?

I concurr with the above. I can't see in the report what oil you have had tested. Was it ...50 or ...60 (hot) grade oil? Your pressure readings suggest that to me but it would be good to know exactly.

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this oil was 0w40 that Porsche put in there in January, ran very good pressure and about 2500 miles, wasn�t down a drop. This past oil change we put 15w50, which obviously has increased it a bit.

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Well, thats great op. Does op max out gauge on cold starts..? Especially good if op never drops in corners,,, thats great. Ya, the no tin but copper in your oil analysis is the problem was talking about. Unless the missing tin/babbit that covered the copper layer was flushed out on last/prior oil change..? And now only the copper is left in that spot. The copper wear could be only in one small spot on a bearing that got some smegma/debris in it and scrubbed/scratched off a small portion of the babbit/copper..? In that case it will be similar to many many other older engines, and not a reason to tear into the engine till other problems might arise. But all the above is just speculation in answer to your question. Just a possibility, you asked and this is the only explanation I can come up with. Other than this is a fluke, external contamination etc, which is another good possibility. To answer your question above what to do as far as your planned imsb,,? If it were mine, I'd do the next oil change sooner than latter. And remove the sump plate, carefully inspect the sump for debris that might be the imsb coming apart, or guide/pad debris. This would help make my decision on when to do the imsb job... I take off my sump every oil change, its only 13 10mm bolts my Milwaukee makes short work of, giving me a small window of possible current engine condition. If all looks good in the sump and filter is clean from ferrous metals, you could feasibly put off the imsb job as with no imsb debris in the sump on your 30k miles engine, would probably mean imsb is in decent shape. Any engine/imsb noises..? Any oil leaks from between engine and tranny...? This is your decision, not mine or anyone elses. Hate for you to put off the imsb job and then have a failure on my or anyone else's recommendation....

My cooper has always been high since I bought my car. In the last two samples, my lead and tin now went high. I am driving the car from Chicago to FL in a few weeks to bring it to my new home, will continue to drive it for at least 2500 miles and then re-test. Maybe I'm in for a short block sometime soon. I hope not, but i think that is wishful thinking. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...king-good.html Details at that post.

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Very helpful, yes OP maxed on cold start. Nothing ever in oil filter at all and no leaks. Imsb was for peace of mind, and I wanted to do it before it�s already an issue. Was curious if this blackstone would give pause to necessarily putting in the IMS work. I have about 1k miles on the new oil and about 3 weeks till scheduled for the Solution. I guess where I�m curious is if it comes back the same, would you not do IMS and instead start saving for engine, or I�m overreacting given what that test shows?

Curious is as to whether you solved your mystery. I had similar copper and aluminum values to yours AFTER I changed the IMS to the LN solution. So I am trying to see if it�s just residual somehow or if my bearings are wearing.

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Car is great, passed LN IMSS inspection regime at certified installer which included dropping sump, check for bore score, camshaft deviation, and oil analysis. The main thing I learned is that everyone wants their situation to be the same as the next guy, based on all the Blackstone�s I reviewed, this is rarely the case. So many variables to worry about. Just be diligent and don�t listen to everyone here.

You likely have some rod bearing wear. This would not exclude you from an LN IMS inspection.

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thanks, doc. Amazing what you�ve diagnosed from a single blackstone with zero lead and zero tin. It was more likely some thrust bearing wear from throw out bearing / clutch being worn and ready for replacement, either way, was anomalous because was normal on next test.

It could be the throw out bearing that is worn but why don't you replace and resample to confirm your theory. Don't ask for advice when you get upset that the answer isn't what you wanted to hear. So many childish people like you on this website. You should have used Speediagnostix and asked for advice from Charles/LN but instead you chose to come here (eye roll). Merry Xmas big boy......

Haha I was responding to someone else and you jumped in. Sounds like you really understand. The throw out bearing isn�t in the engine� the point was that a bad throw out bearing will increase wear on thrust bearing. I did replace it. Have a merry Christmas. This is why I think people who are legitimately looking for guidance and advice, should not post here, at least for oil analysis.

I have said time and time again that for legit advice on topics like UOA or bore scoring folks should contact LN Engineering, Hartech, or Slakker. Many people on this website think they are experts on topics they have absolutely no clue on. There are people that will give bore scoring diagnoses that have literally never used a borescope and couldn't if their life depended on it. They have no experience doing it and knowing what is typical so they often confuse things like normal marks in the castings with "cracked cylinders". Glad you got your situation sorted...

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wholeheartedly agree!

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Merry Christmas to all..... Just for the record, our babbit coat on bearings contain tin, antimony, and copper. No lead. Lead based babbit is a cheaper low rpm bearing usually only used in modern times for industrial type engines/pumps/gennys/etc, or older engines... Once the tin/tin alloy is worn off and gone, next coating is copper, then the steel shell. So if you don't know previous analysis that at 1 point maybe/probably showed tin also, and now you're down to just copper....? There is no other copper in our engines other than bearings, so make it what you will. Thrust bearing wear happens when the clutch is being constantly even slightly pressed in by a driver that 'rides' the clutch. Or even just keeps his foot on the pedal. This constant, even slight pressure on clutch pedal causes the reciprocating mass to be 'thrust' slightly forward, putting more pressure on the rear face of the thrust bearing causing wear in the bearing. Has nothing to do with a worn clutch or worn throw out bearing, Other than a worn clutch being another side effect/victim of 'riding the clutch pedal', a bad driving habit... Have no idea of the actual condition of your engine, no one does until its torn down. Random Oil samples many times do not accurately represent the concentrations %. You can get a pocket of high concentration or low concentration. You can get a sample that misses some things completely. Thats why multiply analysis over time prove more accurate for diagnosis trends. Don't confuse this post and think I'm telling you your engine is toasted. I'm not at all. Nobody can from 1 oil analysis. Just correcting some misconceptions here. Take it or leave it, IDCMEW... jmo

^^^ exactly this.

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So why in the hell did you start a thread on the topic?

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lol if you read above my response to the person who asked, I said the main thing I learned was this, so when I initially posted about 5 months ago, I did not have this knowledge yet.

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What did you learn?

Let me follow-up on my previous 2 questions with a comment. If you frequent the 996 forum, you will figure out that the guys who responded to your thread are all seasoned guys that have demonstrated over the years that they know what they are talking about. Not one gave you bad response. All were trying to help you out. And then you slap them upside the head as a thank you. Time you make a new years resolution on your behavior.