help a noob - 996 carerra 4 purchase

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Hey all, could you help me evaluate my decision before I make a purchase? I'm looking for an AWD that's fun. The 996 carerra 4 is high on that list, but this would be my first porsche and I would be looking at something that's solidly in the DRIVER instead of LOOKER category. Rough, reliable, and fun to drive are what I would shoot for. I saw this one posted in another thread and realized this may be a practical option considering the cost. In case the link goes away, it's a 99 c4 coupe, 140k miles for $11,500. No interior pics or evidence the IMS has been done. Clean title: I need AWD for drives across the rocky mountains including 80+ mph legal canyon runs. My light RWD car (miata) has been great but I don't want to get stuck on the pass or unable to get to it when snow storms come up. Looking at a car like this. I've driven a cayman but not a 911. I liked the cayman, and I'm coming from a newer miata. My use is: Daily grocery getter. Weekend driver. Regular autoXer with a few track days a year. 700+ mile drives across the rocky mountains with potential to be in major snowstorms. I'm asking for a lot from a car, I know. I would get 2, but I don't have the parking. My question to the members of this forum is, considering the use, how practical is a 996 carerra 4 for a do it all car, considering the money to keep it operating? I know there is the IMS issue and, I hope, small chance that the motor will eat itself and I'll be out of pocket $8-10k for a replacement. I would have the oil feed to the IMS installed if it hasn't already been to mitigate some of this risk. What will the running costs and repair cost will be like for this use, putting on 15-20k miles a year? And can I depend on it? I will do most of my own maintenance, but do not have the space or capability for more than a couple of hours of rented shop time. I'm gauging this against something like the new generation WRX (2015 and up). The porsche is my preferred choice as I find WRXs a bit juvenile. But WRXs are practical for my needs. I just don't know any porsche owners that would drive a 996 like I intend, so no one with experience doing what I would be doing with it. I appreciate the help!

Quotes source post: 14560886

Your link is not taking us to the described car much less one I would recommend taking if they paid you the asking price If you want a reliable driver the general advice is to not look for "deals". A "deal" is almost always going to carry surprises of some sort, be it just a need for basic deferred maintenance or hiding an IMSB failure with a fresh bearing and oil. Based on miles the price seems about right without seeing the described car, but on those same miles I would bet on there being plenty of things that need to be done (plugs/coils, AOS, water pump, belt, possibly hoses, various seals are probably aging out, etc..). If you really want your first Porsche, spend more money (and get lots of help from old timers that know the target model) and get one that is well sorted so it will be less likely to be an exercise in frustration. At 140k unless they just swapped it I wouldn't worry about that at all. The 99 has the dual row (unless it got a motor swap at some point) which is the better of the two. If it doesn't mention the bearing then I'd say that there is a good chance that it still has it's original bearing and at 140k you can safely assume that motor is not going to fail due to the bearing. The AWD in the 911 is better than RWD in such situations, but that is not what it was really built for. That said, your biggest problem is going to be ground clearance. We drive our C4 year round and even with PS2s it is still sure footed in ice and snow until the snow gets deep enough for the bumper (we have the aerokit which acts as a plow sooner than the normal bumper) to start acting like a snowplow. If we bothered to put winters on it it would probably do a bit better, but I'm not sure that much. Given my one experience with an unexpected sudden storm in the CO mountains, you're going to be screwed for more than about 6" and I know it can dump a lot more than that out there in a short period. Substantially different cars in how they drive and handle. Especially for something like AutoX. Given your list, the only red flag is that you want to drive it through Rocky Mountain snows. A good condition car will do everything else you ask and more, but any kind of significant accumulation is going to stop you dead. As mentioned above, the IMSB is a negligible risk in this car. If you find that they just replaced it in the last 1k miles or so, run. Otherwise, don't stress over it. Cracked heads allowing intermix (recoverable), D-Chunking (dead), bore scoring (ultimately dead without full rebuild), and a plethora of other items are all higher risks. That all depends on the state that it's currently in. I would bet on 5-10k to get you started to bring it up to something you can trust not to leave you stuck on a back road somewhere. Then I'd plan on half the first year's cost for the next couple of years as more things crop up. The problem with these cars being so cheap is that people jump in to have their first Porsche and then get surprised by what it costs to keep them up. So maintenance and more critical work gets deferred and dumped in the next owner's lap. That all depends on what you put into it. I am one such, but east of the Blue Ridge in VA is different that the Rockies in the winter... We've also had our's since new which means what it needs and how it's doing is far more predictable for us. Some years we haven't spent more than the cost of oil and gas. A couple years ago now I dropped $10k into rebuilding the transmission and a raft of other things we'd been putting off. Even with that I'd say we're still in the 1-2k per year range.

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"fun to drive" is the only accurate point in this statement. "rough" is a close second. Reliability.... a 996?. Don't think so. A reason to be seriously concerned. High mileage 996 can be very problem prone, not sometime to jump into especially when "reliable" is a top priority. Get a Jeep instead. Proven off-roader for fun trips with the family and friends. Lots of clubs to join similar to PCA where you can meet up and join group drives across the rockies. Of course, if you don't like a Jeep, then purchase a cool AWD vehicle like the Subaru. I owned a Jeep, but very problematic; however, they have a huge following. Maybe rent a garage. Many people keep their daily driver and their "fun car" is stored in a commercial storage facility. But that costs more $$$ you probably would rather put to maintenance. About as practical as button-fly pants for Bill Clinton. Seriously, practically is subjective. You'll have to define that. If you're worried about being "juvenile", then you've missed the whole point of Porsche ownership. Hell, the Porsche 996 has the best hips on the planet. Add a mullet and some Wham on cassette and you're set! Please don't post any nekkie pictures of your doing weird things to a 996. hahaha I like to sleep at night. Again, if you drive them hard, you better be contributing a Porsche hospice account.

Quotes source post: 14560886

You mention a '99 C4 with 140k for $11,500, but then posted a link to a ridiculously-modified '02 with 59k for $60,000. Confusing. A C4 will do what you're asking, but you asked "how practical is it"? These are not practical cars. People buy them because they're fun to drive and/or they look good. If you're looking for something with bulletproof reliability and great practicality, people here are going to tell you you're barking up the wrong tree A newer car with cheaper parts and more ground clearance would make more sense for year-round every day use in the Rockies. Not saying you shouldn't buy a C4, just saying you mentioned the world "practical", which more or less rules out any Porsche, or any car approaching antique status.

Quotes source post: 14560989

Actually, that was Debo that posting the green machine gangsta 996. ha!

Gnat definitely hit all the right points. Just from experience I'll say after moving back to the midwest from San Diego my first winter I bought some turbo twists with winter tires and tackled the snow. I didn't like it. The car handled it well enough, but mine is also a C2, so I can't say how much better the C4 would be. I personally probably won't drive mine again this winter, or at least when it's really cold and if there is a lot of snow or ice. I had plenty of moments of genitalia shrinking excitement in adverse conditions, and the paint on my front bumper and hood took a battering from salt and other **** being kicked up from other cars. Seriously, it was a super clean California car before, now the bumper looks like it has herpes. I love my car immensely, and because of that I can't justify subjecting it to all the winter crap again. Oh that and the ever present horror stories of bore scoring from cold weather starts. That one gets me. I had never worried about that in my different BMWs over the years in the coldest winters, but the Porsche runs on unicorn semen and princes tears and the engine is apparently made from blown glass by the finest artisans in Germany, and consequently if you sneeze on it wrong the experts will tell you it's screwed and you must pay a gazillion and a half dollars to have it rebuilt. But if you have a devil may car attitude and can afford to chuck in a new engine should something go wrong, I say do it. As far as practicality, it's a 911, not a wagon or SUV, but between the frunk and "back seats" you can carry a good amount of stuff. Mine is my daily driver, and I have even managed to cram two adults into the back seat for a short trip around town, though I think their pelvises were crushed into powder after hitting some bumps. And as for autocross a Cayman or Boxster will certainly be better cars for that endeavor. A mid engine layout is just better. But you can spend a small fortun on putting in all the GT3 suspension components you can find and it will be better. For the track though it's a ton of fun. Turns are trickier than in a mid engine car, but when you get it just right and lay down the power she'll slingshot you out of the turn beautifully.

Something else to consider, a Cayenne. You can get 955TTs in the same range of 996s. They are no 911 or Cayman in AutoX or Track, but they won't disappoint for casual fun in those events either. A set of winter tires with the air suspension locked in raised mode won't be deterred by most of what the Rockies can throw at it. The 955s (I believe it was removed for the 957s) also had locking diffs which really makes them hard to stop.

Quotes source post: 14560966

First off, thanks for the detailed replies so quickly! I fixed the link. Second, @b3freak, screw you for suggesting I get a jeep. Suggesting I get a jeep has got to be the most offensive thing anyone has ever said to me. Leck mich am Arsch. I like the idea of a porsche because it's an actual driver's car. I do track and autox my cars, and I drive them as they are meant to be driven. Hard . Fi Thanks @gnat, this is great info. I've driven the blue ridge quite often, great wineries out that way. So on the high side the maintenance could be more than the $11,500 price of the car in 2 years. Ouch. I definitely see why you say to get a sorted car. At that cost, I'd probably end up LS swapping it. But the plowing snow is an issue. I figured with taller winter tires it may be ok, but at this point the WRX may have to keep me entertained for a few years until I have a bigger garage, at which point a cayman or boxster would make better sense. This is also really good to know. I've done a lot of research and hadn't thought about this! My reality is I don't need it year round every day in the rockies. It just needs to get across the rockies 4-5 times a year, and would need to get across even if there was a storm with 10 inches of fresh snow (which just happened in Sept). It would get tracked and autoXed on the coast where the climate is milder, where it would get the grocery getting duties, but would have to get me across the mountains when I need it. I am not a casual autoXer, FYI. I need something competitive.

These are all $25-35,000 cars. It just depends if you buy one for $11K then put in the rest to get it up to par, or just fork out the dough in the beginning for a lower mileage more well kept one. These cars have some very real engine wear issues that come up at high mileage. Oval cylinders, coolant intermix, fractured cylinders, etc. You could buy one for $11K, do a $20K rebuild then another $4K in little things to get it squared away...or just spend the money for a nice one right out of the gate. You might get lucky on a cheap one...or you might not. This is just my opinion based on what I have observed here, others may disagree, YMMV.

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If this is true, then I'd definitely buy a cheap one and LS swap it. You seem to come in at the same price with a reliable and durable power plant.

Audi RS6 hands down! Forget 911.

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Really? If that's the most offensive thing you've ever heard, then you haven't been out much nor want to join the Porsche community or must less come on Rennlist asking for opinions and advice. Don't ask for feedback around here, if you're wrapped in thin skin. RE: Jeeps. Jeeps have some the biggest followings in the mountain regions and are more suited for adverse conditions. Lots of fun, but of course, not a sports car like the 996. Duhhh! As Gnat pointed out, the AWD system on the 996 is good for only so much snow, then it becomes a DOT volunteer in smoothing out the roads. It almost sounded like you wanted to go off-road with the Porsche 996, which has proven to be a fools errand. The WRX would be better sense. Overall, it all depends on what will satisfy your itch. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter if it's a pink miata or purple Lamborghini, if it brings a smile on your face at the end of the day, what does it matter what we think? There are no cheap Porsches. If anything I've learned from many owners (including myself), you gotta PAY to PLAY! The M96 motors are not known for reliability, but if the common weaknesses are taken care of, you'll get many MILES of SMILES! Now back away from the computer and take a deep breath.

It depends what needs to be done to bring it up to par. If it has a solid maintenance plan and everything is up to par, that could be a great deal. If not, then expect to dump 5-10k in your 1st year of ownership (a good winter tire setup will be a couple grand right there). I spend about $500/month on maintenance for my C4S. Sounds like you need one of these though.

Jeeps are junk.

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I owned one and yes, I would have to agree. But still, the facts are the facts. I produced a film on some research that was conducted on associations/clubs/events linked to motor vehicle ownership and at time, the two companies that had the biggest followings were winnebago and ... you guessed it... Jeep.

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He may have gone the hyperbole route, but I've known you for awhile now and thought you were being a bit of a d!ck in your response to reasonable questions. Or do you have extensive with C4s in a foot or more of snow down there in GA that we don't know about? As far as 911s off road, you do know that the 959 was specifically built to be an off road rally car and the 996's AWD system is a derivative of the 959's right?

955 Turbo. About as fast as the 996C4 and on air ride. Raise it up when the snow gets deep and drop it down for the canyons. https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...000-miles.html https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...nne-turbo.html '05 955TT: 0-60 = 5.4 1/4 = 13.79 @ 102.47 60-0 = 112 V Max = 165 mph 1999 C4: 0-60 = 5 1/4 = 13.2 V Max = 169 mph

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Thank you. I don't think I indicated in any sense that I planned to go off road. The road across the rocky mountains are all paved. @awdguy I agree, jeeps are junk, not to mention not really being meant for autoX or the track. @Volkert I'll look into the audis. I had a 2001 TT and it was the worst financial decision I ever made. I recently had a 2016 A3 quattro but found it really uncomfortable and sold it. I tend to like smaller cars and never looked higher in their range.

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And it does this: You Tube I don't know about the older Cayennes, but my 958 diesel on 18" (e.g. big sidewall) wheels and steel suspension held it's own with or bettered the 996 and older 911s when I took it for a day AutoXing. Phenomenal handling from a 5500lb beast.

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When you said, "I need AWD for drives across the rocky mountains including 80+ mph legal canyon runs.", this is what I thought you meant. You Tube You Tube

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A foot or more snow? Lawd! We mostly get lots of ice which is a helluva lot more fun in a Porsche. (e.g. Snowpocalypse) Almost bought a C4 last month, but it sold before I got the $$$ in hand. But read and talked to many C4 owners (which actually prompted my interest in the C4 and C4S) that said the AWD system is a radically different 996 experience but the viscous coupling differential in the 996 C4 doesn't always behave properly in deeper snow and mud driving conditions.

I drove a 996 C4S as my daily driver for years, living in the Rocky Mountains. It was fine in that application, except in deep snow as mentioned above. The thing that made it fine was not the AWD system as much as the tires. You need proper winter tires to drive these cars in winter conditions. If you try to drive an AWD car in winter conditions with summer tires, you'll end up in a ditch or worse. Reliability was never a concern with my 996. The car never left me stranded. Maintenance expense was more of a concern. Once the car passed 120K miles, I was spending between $5K and $10K per year to keep it on the road and in good shape. That's the main reason that I sold it.

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Excellent point Dennis!

$500 a month in maintenance!? $5K to $10K a year to keep it going?! What in the world are you spending all this money on?

5-10k$? You could have a bad year but year on year? Also, you have have preventative, corrective maintenance or upgrades. If you need new shocks and you decide to go all the way things can get expensive but I would not consider this maintenance.

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prices are in CDN rear tires, Michelin super sports were $1300 front tires, Michelin super sports were $900 motor mounts =$380 window regulator ($200-$400) x 2 heater core leaking coolant = $200 Door latch = $400+ headlight switch = $200 coolant reservoir, hoses and coolant = $500 seat belt receptacle = $200 Joe Gibbs oil changes are NOT cheap. CV boots= $80 � 2 ​​​​​clutch, RMS, IMS = $2500 never mind the full $20k engine rebuild due to scored cylinders. and I'm sure I am forgetting a lot.... it's depressing to go through the list.

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it's all in the tires. I had Toyo Garrit s on my WRX and I could stop on 2 feet of fresh snow, feel the car sink a foot in it and take off slowly with 0 issues. Never got stuck in that car and that why my DD is a Legacy now. Miss the power of my WRX but the AWD is just as much kick ***.

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Hey those $1000 drums of specialty oil ain't free!

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Yup. I have the service records. I included wear items in the total, like tires and brakes, as well as my IMSB upgrade when my clutch was changed. I looked at it more as a total expenditure as opposed to maintenance vs. repairs.

At $500/month or $6k per year, isn't there a pretty good argument for just doing ZERO maintenance and buying a new car every couple years?

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Wow, I thought you had bought a Jeep until I got to the RMS and Scored Cylinders.... Funny Story about Jeeps, My brother has sold cars for 40 +years, his dealership owner also has a large jeep dealership that he worked the Finance/Business Mgr desk for 6 months until they found right person. One of the sales guys sold this customer a loaded C7 to a first time buyer. It turns out it was in the shop almost every week for 2 months. He tried invoking the States lemon law, but it wasn't same thing every time. The customer came in so angry one time to service dept to the point his rants spilled over to sales area and let new customers know his displeasure with purchase. He came into my brothers office and started yelling at him because, he had financed it for him. (like it was his fault he needed it financed ) Then it became combative, as my brother is pretty even tempered , but can make a person look like a dick if challenged. Customer turned into Volcano mode. It was first time he had ever been "threatened" all because they wouldn't take back the Jeep, because it was a POS. 2 days later guy drove it through front Window of dealership to "return it". Needless to say, he was wearing a new Tennessee orange jumpsuit for a while.

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same here. I actually forgot the front brake job I just did in my list. and that's just parts for the most part as I do the labor myself. So that $500/month could actually be closer to $800-$1000/month

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I get winters off since I don't winter drive it. lol. ugh.

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a jeep is reliable when compared to my car. and these are pretty common issues. Pelican pretty much has a how-to for all of those issues

Personally I never include wear items in my "maintenance" numbers as not only can they vary wildly based on usage, but any car needs those things. Interestingly our first oil change (from a Porsche specific Indy) for the 996 cost $75 and the first set of PS2s cost almost $4k. Now oil changes are about $300 and we pay $1200 for a set of PS2s. Kinda funny to think 18" wheels aren't a large and uncommon size any more...

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it's not like I use a different way to calculate my running costs on each of my cars. It's consistent. Cost me money? It gets recorded. Gas even gets recorded but on a different tab on the spreadsheet

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+1 It's easy to convince yourself that you're coming out ahead if you don't have a loan on your car. I paid cash for my 996 when I bought it, so maintenance and repairs were my only expenses associated with the car. I felt like I was ahead because I had no car payment. I don't record my spending for fuel, but pretty much everything else gets recorded.

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Yes! That's why there's a 991 in my garage now.

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Sorry, I meant for discussions like the OP asked about how much it costs to maintain. Yes I can quote you of the top of my head to within a few hundred of what we have spent on the 996 since new for everything but gas. It's not a pretty number and it's even worse when I include that original check I wrote for it The key for me sleeping well at night is that I don't regret a single penny and even 16.5 years in it is still absolutely worth it!

Rockpoint, are you high? Based on what you state you want to do with the car this 140,000 mile 996 is not a good choice. "700+ mile drives across the rocky mountains with potential to be in major snowstorms." You can only have one car and you are "deciding" between a 17 year old 140,000 mile sports car and a 2015 WRX? WRX all day long for the reliability, resale, 4wd, ground clearance. Most 996s are toys, second or third cars. Sure some are perfectly suitable for daily driving, but not this one, not based on how you will use it.

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I have many regrets but what helps me sleep at night is knowing I don't have monthly payment for the actual car.

My Volvo is boring. It never breaks. Without a 996 in my life, what am I going to do with my spare time on the weekends? On a different note... With all this new AWD/Jeep/Subaru talk, I guess I'm not such a d!ck (as Gnat mentioned) for suggesting it in the first place. Back to lunch.

A 3 year old WRX will keep up with a C4 996 on the highway. If I was looking for something that will gobble up highway miles in any weather, that would be my pick. The 996 isn't a Toyota Camry. On average, it will not give you 300,000 trouble free miles with just basic maintenance. I have many friends who have blown up their STIs and EVOs. The difference is that a new STI motor won't set you back $20K.

I blew up the HG on my WRX. This was after doubling it's horsepower with modifications. The cost of a new HG and weekend in the garage, I was back at collecting doors in no time. You can buy an entire drive train for $6k

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I said "bit of" and I stand by that

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You stand by my d!ck?

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Do you have any idea what an LS swap and costs? An LS swap won't make it a better snow plow either...

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Based on your avatar, you're the one that is "flaming" NTTAWWT!

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hahahaha! Guess we've scared the OP off.

I have an '01 996 C4...bought it at a very good price with High Miles as a project car...there are so many great modifications you can do to these vehicles...the price point of the one you are looking at fits perfectly into this category...If I was going to get a daily driver I would be looking for a more updated model with lower miles etc. Remember the AWD C4 is only really 85% back 15% front... I would not purchase as my everyday vehicle but a fun project car...

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THIS☝🏻️

I hope I don't Jinx my self, but 2 years in, no major issues and I drive it 4 0f 5 days to work and all weekend. Even grocery shopping. Just tires, oil, and air filter. And of course the top needed replacing when I bought it. I would guess I have spent all together about $3000? Plus gas. They seem pretty reliable to me, but I'm still low mileage(68000) so I will see. I would not drive it in more than 6" of snow, though.