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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHReplacing IMS tomorrow
Reported or suspected cause
original single row in perfect condition
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
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Reported cause
It was the original single row in perfect condition.
Leading evidence: 'original single row in perfect condition' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'original single row in perfect condition' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Inspect ***** and races' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
This can be somewhat misleading as you haven't torn apart the seals and inspected the ***** and races.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Actually, that is exactly what I did 3 years ago when I bought my 996 and had the IMSB replaced for PM.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Years ago while a college student, I loaned my very used beetle to a fraternity brother.
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Suggestion
Against a 15k repair I suppose every bit helps but...
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Suggestion
If you are gonna spend the coin to drop the motor and transmission then it only makes sense to replace original 10+ year clutch due to the labor cost of separating the two units.
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53 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Looking forward to the new LN pro (for single row cars replaces with a double row IMSB).
My '03 only has 39k miles on it - but is 13 years old. So as a preventive maintenance will have it done tomorrow. If the clutch needs replacement will have it done at same time (but I don't expect to have to do it).
I'd expect the clutch to be out of spec if measured properly. I'd change the clutch now, while the labor to do this, is free.
We very, very seldom do any IMS work without a clutch, because it doesn't make sense to "be there" and not take the free opportunity.
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My car had a short shifter and aftermarket clutch when I bought it..... so I assume the previous owner took care of IMS.... atleast that is what I am going to believe for now
While I greatly appreciate your suggestion and also just about all of your posts, if the clutch does not show significant wear, I'm just going to leave it alone. There is absolutely no chatter at present. I am very gentle on clutches. (for example, when coming to a stop at any incline, I time my approach to the "full stop" so that I can just slip it into 1st and release the clutch so there is no wear at all on the clutch disk.
And frankly, I'd rather not spend the additional cost. If the clutch does fail before I am due for another IMS replacement, at least the engine won't grenade.
Years ago while a college student, I loaned my very used beetle to a fraternity brother. It came back with a chattering clutch. And I still was able to nurse that car along for another two years that way.
No doubt, you're correct. However, it is my money and unless my indie doing the work recommends it, I'm just going to stick to my plan.
Thanks for your comment.
By the way, the rich got that way by not spending money recklessly or needlessly. Even if it is only a couple hundred bucks.
The rich STAY rich by recognizing that skipping a $200 repair this year only to pay $1,000 for it next year may not be a sound long-term financial strategy...
Funny thing...if we could see the future, we'd all be rich - but I have yet to see a wealthy fortune teller.
What is the proper way to evaluate a clutch? I replaced the original clutch in my 70K mile C2 "because I was in there" though the clutch disk thickness, measured to the face of the rivets, was 2/3 the thickness of the new one. I think I could have skipped the clutch....???
Also, I don't think a new clutch is $200.
The $200 was a follow-up to OP's comment, not an estimate of 996 clutch prices: "By the way, the rich got that way by not spending money recklessly or needlessly. Even if it is only a couple hundred bucks.
its not always about thickness of the surface. Over time and heat cycles the friction surface can loose it integrity. If you are gonna spend the coin to drop the motor and transmission then it only makes sense to replace original 10+ year clutch due to the labor cost of separating the two units. A clutch disk is 300-500 bones-ish. The labor is 3-4 times that much. It is a no brainer to replace the original clutch if you drop the motor and trans out, but to each their own its not my money.
If you are gonna be dumb, you better be tough.
If you play stupid games, then you will win stupid prizes.
new clutch $700-$800
DM flywheel $1100-$1200
add $2000 to make it right for next 70K miles + resale ease/value
thats how smart people do the math
this is a no-brainer
Before the birth of my 2nd kid, doctor recommended that while ALREADY IN THERE, do we want her tubes tied for a little extra charge? BTW, her tubes were perfectly fine and of course, can wait till later for the doctor to go back in and get them tied. The choice for my wife was pretty easy
Oh boy, here we go again.
If your clutch is still like new but you cave in and have it replaced, might as well get the inside of your bell housing detailed as well ala KK style. You know? While you're in there...
I remember going to Pebble Beach four years ago. While watching folks prepare to drive their priceless cars onto the lawn for the concours event, I saw a white haired gentleman with Q-tips cleaning out the treads.
I thought: "life is simply too short to actually spend time doing this!"
Schnell, re-read my post about the rich. ...not spending money needlessly or recklessly.... Of course that includes not being "penny wise pound foolish".
I've always put my hard earned money into assets that appreciate not depreciate. (I'm a fan of the Dave Ramsey radio show).
Every time a human with a wrench in his hand intervenes, there's the chance of causing more problems. I want to keep others away from my work as long as possible.
I am the same way when working on my own fleet. I don't want to do the job again, because I don't have the time to. I finish a car, and I don't touch it for years, other than to keep it serviced.
They called and said I have 60% left on the clutch (at 39k miles). They also said the flywheel has some small grooves worn into it. They said: "it's up to you whether you want "new" stuff".
My question is what is the effect, if any, of having any imperfect surface on the flywheel? I can't feel anything when I drive.
Thanks for your input.
The only thing that can wear grooves into the friction surface of the flywheel is the clutch, and the only grooves I've worn into a flywheel were due to wearing the clutch down to the rivets. So that part seems a little odd to me.
If the shop does not think there is a safety issue, button it up and drive it for another 30K miles.
As a data point: My C4 clutch was worn completely down (I had just started polishing one rivet) at 60K...
Your car is doing 3K miles a year (based on the mileage / 13 years) - so at this rate you could go about 15 more years before the clutch would be completely gone...
Save the "$200."
I did it all myself by reading up and getting the 101 Porsche book.
I did AOS, RMS, IMS, clutch and flywheel for about $1200 in hard parts cost. Then a couple weekends to nip away at it....
I should have left the RMS alone as it was replaced at 60k and car has 100k on it.. I see some seepage from the bell housing. It's not dripping so I'm not going to mess with it. I did all this work 3k miles ago. The biggest pita was the RMS. I really don't feel like pulling the Trans to see if it is indeed the RMS leaking.
But a Sachs clutch is pretty cheap not to replace when it's all off.
The true test for the flywheel isn't the condition of the surface, its condition of the second mass dampening.
I see flywheels all the time that look perfect, but have too much radial,or axial deflection. This is critical, because a bad dual mass flywheel will lead to odd noises, or cylinder misfires that can take days to diagnose. Remember, the toothed reluctor wheel is fitted to the flywheel, and sensed by the crank position sensor, so oddities in the second mass deflection seriously messes with this.
The second mass generally dies well before the surface of the flywheel is compromised.
Here's a good video of how to use the tool that we use on each car that we see. Its made by Luk, the flywheel people.. It amazes me how many shops assume the flywheel is good, and don't even have this tool. To date I have only had one attendee in my classes know how to use this tool properly.
CLUTCH TECH: Dual - Mass Flywheel Tool - YouTube
I admire your restraint. If it was me there would be no question about replacing the clutch. Actually, that is exactly what I did 3 years ago when I bought my 996 and had the IMSB replaced for PM.
I think spending money on the 996 has become an obsession for me. If a month goes by without any repair or upgrade bills I start having anxiety attacks and weird dreams about bits of my car exploding while I'm driving down the I5 to the track in WA.
[QUOTE=porschemikeandnancy;13361294]No doubt, you're correct. However, it is my money and unless my indie doing the work recommends it, I'm just going to stick to my plan.
My thought process exactly. At the time I did my IMS I had several preventative maintenance items to do to the tune of $4k total. Wasn't going to replace my clutch then if it wasn't necessary.
My indy said the clutch was new, didn't show signs of wear. So I left it alone, same with the water pump. The AOS though ($150) was several years old and didn't take much thought to replace.
GL op, enjoy it after the servicing.
So, I authorized the new IMS, and at the same time, switched
to the full flow twist off oil filter and a new clutch and flywheel.
I don't want to tell you what the total is costing - but suffice
it to say, I'll be driving this car probably until after I'm dead.
Picked up car today. The new clutch is much lighter than the old one (even though it had 60% left on it). I inspected the old clutch, pressure plate and flywheel - and, indeed, there were grooves worn in both pressure plate and flywheel. But the grooves were not from the clutch rivets contacting the flywheel - just the result of friction over 13 years.
I also had the screw on oil filter added - as according to most, it is full flow. Even though I had frequent oil changes and had been cutting open the old filter (no evidence of much of anything), and I have the old IMSB - which I will use as a paperweight.
I didn't realize that the old single row IMSB was sealed and the replacement the LN single row pro - has an open end on one side so engine oil gets in there.
Anyway, glad I spent the money. Now I'll drive it, probably for at least another 10 years (if I'm here that long) and not worry about a grenading engine.
^ This is true - or at least used to be true - the old bearing had to be supplied for the single-row pro 2-year warranty to be valid.
However, the warranty covers only the bearing, so I wouldn't sweat it too much...
The sole and exclusive remedy against LN Engineering LLC arising from this warranty is
limited to, at LN Engineering LLC’s option, replacement of the defective part
manufactured/produced by LN Engineering LLC or refund of the WHOLESALE
purchase price of LN Engineering
Unless you have both the bearing and the flange, you're probably out of luck...
REGISTRATION AND RETURN OF ORIGINAL BEARING REQUIRED
In order to be eligible for replacement parts under this warranty you MUST return the warranty
registration form attached below within thirty (30) days of installation.
AND
You MUST send the original IMS bearing and flange UNCLEANED in a ziplock bag...
...with a copy of the invoice showing professional installation of the IMS Retrofit within the
warranty period.
I wonder if they will refuse to honor the warranty if you return it in a non-Ziploc bag...
Well it was yours so it was up to you. Keep it as paperweight or have a warranty on the bearing. Understandable that you didn't get asked as most people don't want old parts. I knew I wanted up our's and I knew about the warranty requirement, so I stipulated that up front.
I might have kept it if I'd read the warranty more carefully.
I mean if it fails and grenades your motor they pay you what, $600? Against a 15k repair I suppose every bit helps but...
I just had my clutch, driveshaft coupler, RMS, IMS from LN completed. Just got her back today ! It was the original single row in perfect condition. I'm keeping mine too.
This can be somewhat misleading as you haven't torn apart the seals and inspected the ***** and races. I'm assuming you are judging it by the lack of any freeplay.
