Ohlins Road and Track Coilovers Review on a 996 C2

I posted the below review on page 3 of an old thread that was revived, but I figure it is worth its own post for future search-ability. I'm really impressed with this suspension, I'm surprised it hasn't been adopted as widely among 996s as it has on other Porsches, not to mention BMWs, Hondas, Mazdas etc. ******* I installed Ohlins Road and Track on my 2003 996 C2 in January 2017. My car is DD-ed from from downtown DC to Bethesda over godawful roads and I have 13 autocross events on them so far in 2017. I've been meaning to write something up as I think these are pretty under represented in the 996 camp. If anyone is in the area and would like to experience them in person, PM me. My impressions on the street: DC has horrendous roads. Especially the section of my commute through Rock Creek Park where the pavement is an utter disgrace. Honestly I could probably barely get through some sections on a road bike. With that in mind, dampers set to 12, they are far more comfortable than my original stock suspension. I've never felt the need to set them softer than 12 (see setting note below), even driving on worn Direzza Zii* or RE71R. I actually run them stiffer at 10 or 11 when I swap to my daily tires which are the new Conti ExtremeContact Sports. The springs are very stiff (something like 340lbs front, 680 rear) but you'd never guess as such when the dampers are set anywhere close to soft-ish. The base suspension was under-sprung and over-damped, but IMHO these are just perfect. Even on street settings you immediately notice the disappearance of the stock pitch/dive under braking/acceleration and much of the body roll. As you would expect turn-in is much sharper and the car feel much more settled at any speed. There's really little need for upgraded sway bars on the street with this suspension. Long road trips are a breeze, expansion joint harshness becomes more a function of your tires than the suspension. Sometimes I instinctively brace for what I expect is going to be a big impact, but the DFV rounds off these big impacts extremely well. My street wheels are 18" in stock size and are quite lightweight, so this no doubt adds to the lack of harshness I experience on the road. I'm sure 19" or heavy wheels would adversely impact the suspension ability to work, just as it would the stock suspension. Autocross: I began the season setting the dampers to 7 or 6, but now I'm regularly running as stiff as 4. I like that there is only 1 **** to mess with, I'm not really a setup guy. I like to get the car in the ballpark and work on my driving. The increased body control has made this a seriously fast car now. The car feels every bit as sharp and responsive as you'd expect from coilovers with spring rates like these. Im actually surprised how much earlier I can get on the gas on corner exit as weight transfer to the rear is better controlled and the car wont plow out as badly with early throttle application. The rest of my suspension is stock including sway bars (I prefer the OFAT method), so this has some effects at autox. With the dampers at 6+ the car transitions just as mildly to oversteer as before. In stock form it was shocking how cuddly the car was at the limit, how catchable oversteer was, and how well the car responded to a little lift mid-corner. None of this changes with settings at 6+. However given my stock roll bars I was looking for a little more control in transitions, so I pushed up to 4. The car feels nicely sharp at 4. There is probably a slight traction disadvantage on less than ideal pavement when running this stiff, but the car responds so beautifully that it is worth it. I managed to take FTD in my lowly 996 at a PCA autox against some seriously fast cars. I was blown away. There is a down side to running this stiff however, as the car does become a bit less forgiving. When the rear breaks, it breaks fast and you have to be much more exact with your corrections. Stiffer sways would allow me to run a little softer without losing the responsiveness in transitions. It's a little thing and might be down to my alignment or something, but it's worth noting. Even running stiff, the DFV does a great job soaking up bumps. At at an on-track autocross I was able to get pretty aggressive on the curbs and the car just soaked it up. Often I drive home with the shocks still set to stiff (and with lower autox tire pressures) because Im too hot and tired to bother resetting them. The car works great on the freeway still, only really getting harsh over the broken pavement on DC surface streets. My only regret is not installing these earlier. List price has come down to about $2500 and you can find them even cheaper with a little effort. At that cost and for a dual purpose car, it's a no brainer. I do occasionally hear a ping from of spring binding, but it is very rare. Ohlins' user guide suggests the following settings (0 being stiffest, 20 being softest) track use: 0-7 clicks winding road: 5-10 clicks street: 10-20 If you're nearby DC and want a ride to see for yourself, just LMK

Did you change your bushings or drop Links?

These are really good dampers for the $. I had them on my GT3 for 3 years with lots of track time. They are very compliant but very controlled. I've driven and ridden in all sorts of setups with different dampers and I really like Ohlins the best. I've KW club sport on my 964 and they are pretty good, not as compliant though, even compared to my GT3RS which I have Ohlins TTX on now and WAY higher spring rates. For clarity on the clicks: You always start from a fully closed position (so the **** is fully clockwise, then back it to the first detent). Then count the clicks. So 6 = 6 from fully closed position.

Quotes source post: 14449722

I should have added adj drop links when the coilovers went on, but I didn't. I somehow managed to get corner balanced with zero preload on the sway bars with the stock drop links... But I'm considering myself lucky and will be swapping them out in the near future. Even before I upgrade sways. My bushings were ok at the time and I was planning on upgrading front LCAs, and probably rear UCAs and toe links this winter so I thought it made sense to wait. Plus I wanted to see how harsh the Ohlins would be by themselves before I decided on rubber or poly bushings.

Quotes source post: 14449817

How much did you lower your car?

The simple reason more people don't use them is cost. Over $2,500 is the best I have seen. Another bigger reason for me....Ouch. Recommended Service Intervals; Racing:Every 10 hours of operation. Maximum 20 hours of operation without service and oil change. Regular street use: Every 30 000 km (18,600 miles)

There are several vendors on eBay that sell them for $2,375. My next purchase.

Quotes source post: 14450330

I was very conservative, only went roughly as low as the ROW M030. Needed to be sure I could get in/out of our absurdly sloped underground garage here in DC without scraping. $2500 is now the list price, cheaper is easy to find. Right on par or cheaper than PSS10 or KW V1 while delivering a better result (my subjective opinion). The service interval did strike me as quite low. But after speaking with Ohlins, it seemed clear this is intended to keep them operating in their optimal range, avoiding any fall-off that a shock will naturally have. I don't expect these will leak or degrade in performance any faster than the Bilsteins or any monotube. Time will tell on that front, I'll update if I still have the car when I cross that bridge.

Great to hear you are satisfied and happy ... The Ohlins Road&Track are indeed a nice piece of craftmanship. I am still surprised with their versatility. Smooth when needed. Sharp when necessary!

I appreciate the follow up. I have been considering these for my car. I live in WV and the roads are similar to what you have in DC.

Where are the adjuster on the front? I have PSS9s and mine are a pain to get to with a jack (on the bottom of the strut).

Great review thanks. You mentioned the ExtremeContact Contis - these are the only Contis available in the stock 18inch size (285/30, 225/40) - how have you found them?

Quotes source posts: 14450767, 14451000

The adjuster is on the bottom of the strut, but I've found it easy to reach (blindly) from behind if I turn the wheel to full lock. A bit annoying to turn from lock to lock just to adjust the fronts, but you get used to it. Another thing that takes getting used to is the fact that the strut is inverted, so you need to turn the shock asj **** the opposite way you would think. Sounds simple, but sometimes working out which way you need to turn it is like patting your head and rubbing your belly at the same time. So far I really like the new ECS. I daily-ed Zii* for the year prior and they obviously don't feel as sharp as those, but I've been really surprised by how much grip they have. They defn make the steering feel pretty light, but I think the feedback is still pretty good. I think they'd be fun to run at something noncompetitive like a DE. They seem quiet and smooth compared to my RE71R autocross tires, but that's an extreme comparison. I had super sports on the car in 19" for a brief time the first year I had the car, but that's a hazy memory now and I can't really make an accurate direct comparison. For long trips and backroads at 7/10 they feel crisp and responsive, not a wooly mess like the DW were. Ultimately I'd rather have the PS4S as it's supposed to be a better in nearly every respect, but it's not available in our stock sizes yet.

Quotes source post: 14450353

^Not a bad price at all when you consider they come with top mounts...

Quotes source post: 14451890

From what ive read you have to use the factory top mounts.

I have been researching suspensions here on REN for awhile. Thought I had made up my mind on ROW M030 since I do not track and have a steep driveway into garage so did not want to lower the car too much. This thread is making me think that I should consider the Ohlins Road and Track so I was hoping someone could clarify a couple of responses above: Someone asked how much it lowered the car and the response was sim to the ROW M030. Could someone give me a more accurate answer? Again, concerned about my garage entry. Also, I believe the thread started mentioned that he did not change the sway bars, is this correct? Although the Ohlins are about $1,000.00 more than the M030 (which comes with sway bars) I like what I have read about a softer ride under normal driving with better than M030 response in the cornering, Thanks and hope others that run these coil overs can convince me to go with this setup.

Quotes source post: 14452014

Hope I can help, i have the same setup on my car, at recommended install it drops 20mm as stated by Ohlins, this is based off of a Euro car so it is 50mm drop. in the instructions they mention the max height and so on https://www.ohlins.eu/download/db/Oh...--00000142.pdf https://www.ohlins.eu/download/db/Oh...--00000075.pdf I am also running with the stock sway bar. There are also 30 clicks on mine but i doubt there is any adjustment from 20 clicks out to 30 clicks out as the needle would be so far out of the seat at that point. Hope this helps, I have yet to have mine serviced which will kind of suck as they will need to be sent to Ohlins USA in North Carolina. There may be other places for service that I don't know about turn around time was 4 days plus shipping for some bike stuff I recently had done by them.

Quotes source post: 14452014

I'm the OP and can confirm I'm running with stock (base, non m030) roll bars. The balance is good as it is, so I don't want to mess it up. I am still considering upgraded sways, but upgrading my driving is probably more important. Sorry I don't have specifics on the ride height. I told the shop that corner balanced it that ROW m030 was probably a good target. I never bothered to measure it to get a precise height. I could have gone lower with my stock bumper, but I just don't want to have to mess with creeping over grades and speed bumps at insane angles. If you're really concerned about being low and having garage entry you could probably measure the minimum angle needed to clear and then back into your lowest possible ride height. The ride quality remains exceptional on softer settings. Any harshness I experience is more a factor if the tires, pressures, and unsprung weight. Compared to m030 or x74 cars I've been in, my current setup rides better and is better in the corners. The x74 feels like it has a similar roll stiffness (when my dampers are set stiff), but the x74 body control over mid-corner bumps doesn't feel anywhere near as good.

On the ride height By default the car gets lowered 25mm compared to stock with adjusability �15mm In my case after installing the coilovers the car got corner balanced this resulted in around 19-21mm lower in front and 18-20mm in the rear. Did not want to go too low as it might affect balance in the car considering all the rest of the suspension remained stock. Furthermore it is my daily driver and having speed bumps in mind a moderate lowering was preferred. Also have the X51-style oil pan but installed a skid plate to be on the safe side.

Little update for year 2. I still love these coilovers, but I've made an alignment change that has compromised street ride quality so I'll note that here for people concerned about daily use. I was able to bump up my front camber by about -.5 to -1.4 and I bumped up rear by -.03 to -2.2 degrees. The car loves the camber, but it is now much more sensitive to unsmooth pavement where the shocks can't really do much to help out the fact I'm making the tires' inside sidewall absorb more road imperfection. Bumps and impacts are still well controlled, it's just certain type of roads (like concrete overpasses or bridges that are not very smooth, or all of I-95 within 30 minutes south of NYC) that cause the car to be a bit jittery now. It's the kind of small but high frequency jitter that gives you new rattles and annoys your wife. That said for my use this is a very, very minor annoyance and is absolutely worth the NVH compromise. I also find the camber no longer necessitates running 4 clicks from full stiff at autocross. 5-6 seems like the new sweet spot with the pressures I run, but more events this season will tell on that front.

Quotes source post: 14953772

Thanks for posting. Getting ready to pull the trigger for my 991.

Yes Thanks Im about to pull the trigger as well for my 2001 996 Turbo that needs front top mounts and shocks.. Based on the quotes it makes more sense to replace all 4 corners with this set up..

Quotes source post: 15121652

The Turbo might be different, but the set for my 996 c2 did not include top mounts. You could reuse or source new OEM top mounts, or upgrade to something like Tarret's monoballs

I have spent several weeks now with Ohlins on the #supercommuter 4L; it's on the street setting (10 clicks). -5mm from the std Ohlins recommended height setting up front, std in the back. Very impressed with the damping. It was really the thing the car was missing. Previously with H&R springs with stock dampers it always felt under damped. Sharp road inputs (ex: bridge seams) have increased NVH but I'm ok with the tradeoff. Highly recommended if you like a sporty responsive ride that is well controlled and are ok with the NVH tradeoff.

Finally read this thread....Great original post...I wish I read this earlier because I was hesitating with the R&T's to replace my JRZ double adjustable setup. I ended up going with the Ohlin R&T GT3 setup and OMG, the car was a different animal and aligns with your right up...Real happy with the decision. Big fan of R&T.

Quotes source post: 15357672

That's an awesome comparison to hear about in addition to the usual OEM or Bilstein options, JRZs are fantastic. I always just assumed the JRZs would be better than the R&T, but I had never heard from anyone who had back to back experience with both on the same car. Great info!

Sounds like the Ohlins R&T are the way to go. Their price point completely obliterates anything from JRZ.

Quotes source post: 15369304

I had TPC guys do install on mine, and they did mention Tractive may have passive damper (not to be confused with their DDA RT active damper offerings) but said that they could not be price-competitive to Ohlins R&T, and more importantly, while trying to match the quality. They also said that JRZ looked at entry-level offering as well but ran into the same challenge, apparently. I haven't looked at JRZ to see what is available from them but am happy with Ohlins on my car.

Very good information in here, thanks for the updates as well. I was leaning towards the Bilstein PSS10's but this may be a better route to go. seem like they are priced a bit better also. Isn't there some sort of regular 'maintenance' at just about 30K miles I thought I read on their website? Curious if you knew anything more from that since the purchase. Chris

recommended servicing every 2 years or 20k miles if my memory is correct. I'm at 2.5 years and 8k miles. the issue is that the oil breaks down and wear particles build up in the fluid which increases wear on the internals

Ah ok...so its just a matter of changing the oil out? Assuming they need to be removed for this procedure and then a new alignment... No O-rings or anything else to replace at that time? Chris

Quotes source post: 15370700

Sorry if i made it sound over simplified. The shocks have a nitrogen charge on them, they are to be serviced by Ohlins (USA is North Carolina) and have to go back to them not something you are doing at home. I'm not sure what/where the bleed fitting/charge port is on these (or where it is more importantly) but i believe it to be non standard. Ohlins road and track != Ohlins TTX, it is one adjuster for compression and rebound and made to fit a lot of applications, I'm not sure if the internals are tuned to each vehicle. Side note i worked directly with Ohlins sweden in the bike industry and have rebuilt Ohlins moto and bicycle shocks and am not sure how they do it on the Road and track product line.

And here I thought it would be something simple...never is! Sort of a short interval of mileage/time but I still see these as being a good move. Getting my list together for Christmas here. Thanks for the Information. Chris

Recently had these installed as well. Here is an article I wrote for our local PCA newsletter: In the last issue of Our Cars Roundup I shared about getting my car ready for this season's HPDEs (track days). I had a Bilt Racing deep sump, Wevo semi-solid engine mounts, and LN Engineering low temperature thermostat installed in the spring, just before track season was about to start. In final readiness for my first track event of the year at The Ridge Motorsports Park, I scheduled a pre-track inspection with an oil change and brake fluid flush. Unfortunately, the inspection revealed some play in a couple of suspension components (a front strut and tie rod). Since tracking the car places very high loads on these components I was advised that it was best to stay away from the track until the worn components were replaced. I am very passionate about the Porsche marque, and especially about my own car; my long term goal is to make my 996 the best 911 it can be. I have already made many modifications so that it performs even better than when it left the factory in Zuffenhausen. So, I thought, here is my opportunity to improve the car's high speed handling by installing coilovers, and lowering it in the process. I asked many people and did lots of research about aftermarket suspensions, and came to the conclusion that the Ohlins Road and Track suspension would be the best choice for my driving style. The only problem was there was no supply - the Ohlins factory had backorders and it would take some time to get the components. After about two months of waiting James, at Scan Automotive, finally called and gave me the good news. The backorders had cleared and my coilovers were on the way! The experts at Scan completed the coilover installation, with corner balance and wheel alignment, set the car at the perfect ride height, as well as installed new brakes all around, plus new rear tires, all in about a week. Finally - ready for the track! On the Labour Day long weekend I drove down to Pacific Raceway in Kent, WA. Pacific Raceway is an old track with concrete walls and trees quite close to the track, but it has a great flow, nice elevation change, and a high speed front straight. The track surface is not perfect, with some undulations that really tax a car's suspension. The Ohlins performed flawlessly once I got them dialed in. During the first part of the day I progressively bumped up the damping to five clicks and then to three (zero is maximum damping). At three clicks the car felt rock solid and I had a blast for the rest of the day. The new Ohlins suspension gave the car crisp turn in and great body control, and the new suspension and setup gave me a new-found confidence in my car's abilities. My best lap time dropped a full two seconds from last year! Yes, this has been a (or should I say, another) very expensive modification, but I am well on my way to making this car among the best performing 996s around. Stay tuned for future stories about improvements to my 996 - it's not over yet!

I just ordered a set of �hlins and for anyone that installed themselves, do you reuse the strut bearing as well as the rubber and metal plates (support ring and compesation plate) with the stock mount?

Quotes source post: 15642308

you reuse just the top mount and bearing carrier*

Great - thank you!

Hey Triple Black (or others), Are you still happy with the “3” setting? Is that for both front and rear? I just ordered a set and looking forward to getting them installed and trying them out at the track! Thanks!

Believe it or not,, Ohlins are relatively easy to service,, need a couple special tools and a Nitrogen fill unit, Most Dirt track shops and Quad/Side By side shock guys can handle it. Race shops that do open wheel cars etc.. I used to do shocks at the track, not a total rebuild just seals and occasionally a failed valve..

Quotes source post: 16044467

Just back from a track day at The Ridge last weekend. I used the 3 setting again front and rear and the car felt great. This year I also added Elephant Racing lower control arms which give me about 2 1/2 degrees negative camber up front. Running 3 deg in the rear. Now I need to work on my skills as a driver to match my car's capabilities.

Quotes source post: 16046133

Couple of my motorcycles have Ohlins rear shocks that I had rebuilt locally. All they had to do was pull the spec card from that matched the part number on the shock. Good to know they could service Ohlins car suspension too

Quotes source post: 16048278

Just what I needed to start off, thanks.

A shot from last weekend. At the top of the corkscrew. Awesome day in an awesome 996!

Quotes source post: 16050038

Great picture, car and track look like a blast!

Guys thanks for an awesome thread. I pulled the trigger on a set, and will start installation next week. has anyone here did the installation himself? will appreciate any tips.

had mine on for a couple weeks now. loved them on the smooth roads set at 10 front 10 rear on clicks but found them to rough for city and backed them off to 14 each. Was relatively easy to adjust but did need to used a jack on front to get some clearance to reach bottom of the strut to turn. right all the way then left as many clicks as wanted up to 20. rear need to take out a bolt inside the bose subwoofer(pop off the surround cover) and hex on both seat clips on side then panel pops off and can get into turning the rear ****. Install was done by indy shop who said relatively straight forward, used the ohlins pasm delete kit.

Just ordered mine.....with Labor Day Discount Plan to install on my own

Just got mine!!!

Quotes source post: 16109430

I just dropped mine off with the car at the local Indy. Added Tarett top mounts Fr and Rr. Included the knowledge from this thread, and hope to get the car back on Friday for a Sunday track day...Fingers 🤞!

Quotes source post: 16109442

Do you mind sharing how much you got quoted for the alignment? I�m done with my installation and looking for an alignment shop. my priority is TunesRS, as it is right around the corner from me, and specializes in Porsches. they are asking $435 for 4 wheels alignment, and $375 for corner weight balance (and Hight adjustments), that is needed before the alignment itself. So, its $810 just for labor. Now, since I�m lowering the car, I might need to add rear toe control arms at $596 installed, and front �bump steer� kit for $395 installed. That is total of $1927 including tax. Even if I buy the parts and do the installation myself, I�m looking at around $1400 . Now. the parts needed, and the whole process make sense with the explanations, but at the end of the day, I need the car set up for a street use only. Did anyone of you guys needed to go thru all this addons and adjustments? Just curious to know if it is really necessary for a street setup.

Quotes source post: 16113157

You do not need a bump steer kit or control arms unless you are slamming the car to the ground. I�m the OP and still have these on my 991. Dropped mine about 25 mm.

Quotes source post: 16113189

thanks Ryan. so i guess i will try to go as close as possible to stock height.

I paid around $250 for an alignment. This was to custom (Kusmaul) GT3 specs. You can lower quite a bit without custom bits. Why install height adjustable suspension if you are going to stay stock height? Sure, maybe corner balancing, but if you're doing that, you're probably racing and would be lowered...

Quotes source post: 16113267

that's the thing. i'm not going to be racing, so i doubt the need for the corner balancing at $375. also $435 for alignment sounds to much for me. im looking for the right setup (hight, camber , caster and toe numbers ) for street use.

Quotes source post: 16113200

Oh shoot. I�m not the OP. I posted about this on my 991 elsewhere. If you shoot for just 20 or 25 mm lower, you should not need those parts

Quotes source post: 16113157

Just my thoughts: 1). Quote for alignment: I will PM you, not terribly different than your number 2). Rear toe control arms: I do recommend these & you will notice a difference. As mentioned not so much for lowering, but for high speed stability and steering precision. I have tried with and without on my 996.1 and 996.2. You will notice it on the street, again at higher speeds (straights and winding roads). 3). Bump steer kit: not needed for a street car at all. I added to my 996.1 (mostly) track car after it had significant bump steer issues (it is very low).

Quotes source post: 16109442

Picked car up and 2 track days in the books. I Impressions...Really happy so far. My alignment is off, so a full review will be in a few weeks, but here are my settings so far. Originally set at 3 clicks back from full firm. Higher rate springs from H&R did not fit, so went with Ohlins. Track 1 Waterford Hills (smooth track): Settings worked great, no complaints, PB time✅ Track 2 Grattan (some bumps): Rr same, Fr a little firm for the bumps. For Fr, tried 7 back from soft (way too soft), then settled on 8 back from full firm. Felt fantastic, PB time✅ Fr alignment is -3.2 camber (too much!), need to have the Fr Tarett plates re-installed with normal camber, then the target will be ~-2.5. Mid-Ohio in 2 weeks, will report back then.

Hi all thought I might chime in with my review of the Ohlins on a 996 C2. This is my second set of Ohlins with my first being on my E46 M3. Vehicle: Stock Tires: 18" Michelin Pilot Sport 4 FR: 36 PSI, RE: 42 PSI Front Damper Settings: 15 Rear Damper Settings 18 Installation: Pretty straight forwards and easy, only not enjoyable part was compressing the springs to get the old washers from the old dampers. Also there is no step in the front dampers so you need to double check where the location of the dampers as you clamp them in. A note of the front springs, on mine the front adjuster collar really doesnt have much range. There are no more threads to increase spring preload and decreasing spring pre load the spring will become loose and have a range at full droop where it is unseated. Would be nice if they included a spacer or longer springs to place the adjustment collars in the middle of the front damper. Rears dampers where very easy to install. 80% of my driving is on mountain roads. I think the spring rates are a little too high for the majority street driving and are biased towards track driving more. Im probably going to get softer front and rear springs going to start around 20-30% software rates front and rear. A couple of noticeable changes: Rear range of motion is decreased, it has less length full droop. This is noticeable when you hit a mid corner rear bump and the rear wheel can go airborn. Coupled with stiff rear springs, creates some interesting rear end dynamics. Front bump steer is definitely noticeable now, initially the car turns in and as it takes a set then will turn in a little more. My next mod will be bump steer adjusters and then roll center adjusters. On expansion joints/cracks, the rear end NVH is terrible. Hopefully a slightly lower rear spring rate will fix this, might also look into a thicker rubber spring seat I have also tried KW V3s on other vehicles. I would summarise it as follows: Ohlins - more biased as a track suspension KW - Better as a road biased suspension

Quotes source post: 18602231

It's a pity a head to head in detail of all brands vs Feal 441+ seems hard to organise.

Quotes source post: 18602231

I have the Ohlins R & T also...02 C2 Cab. I would say the Ohlins transfer more noise but less shock....especially at the settings you're on. Put some ear plugs in and maybe go by feel rather than noise.

Quotes source post: 18603512

That's actually a very good way of putting it! I've really enjoyed my set for almost 2 years now. I think you can feel the stiff springs mostly at lower speeds farting around town, but at speed they have been great! It's a sports car so I'm fine with it.

Quotes source post: 18603969

I feel and hear a lot more low speed bump and secondary ride is pretty bad. I like the shock, but I think it is oversprung for mainly mountain road driving where there are a lot of mid corner bumps that upset the car. If the inner rear hits a mid corner bump, as the torsional stiffness of the car is so high, I feel it transfers into the front axle as well and you get this interesting front and rear axle oscillation around the x axis of the vehicle. Comfort is very personal and I like it more on the softer side. I think Ill try the 40N/mm and 100N/mm springs next. Then it will have a very similar spring rate to the GT3.

Quotes source post: 18604155

Have you tried increasing the damping? 14, 15 clicks out is pretty bouncy

Yes. Im not talking about primary ride. I'm talking about the initial vertical z axis acceleration that occurs when the rear hits a bump. Increase damping increases this acceleration

Quotes source post: 18604303

OK, If you can tell whats going on to that fidelity. I thought when the damping was reduced, my car just felt too bouncy and unsettled. Too little rebound damping

Quotes source post: 18602231

Question: front preload is supposed to be 5mm. Is that what yours is?

Just as a point of refference i run 10 clicks from the left in the street and 7 clicks from the right on track. It kinda sounds like u have them too tight but every car is different.

Quotes source posts: 18602231, 18602231, 18602231

For clarity is this 15 & 18 clicks away from full stiff? I always avoided this range because it introduced a lot of additional vertical motion and the car did not absorb sharp, disruptive bumps nearly as well as just a few clicks stiffer where the motion felt quite controlled. Because of this, I always felt anything softer than 12 clicks from full stiff was not useful for anything but maybe a long road trip on a dead straight road. 18 felt downright weird and well out of sync with the overall package based on spring rates. Especially on street tires. My theory of why this was the case was that the DFV never really came into play at softer settings because the DFV's activation point was not fixed, but rather relative to the current damping. So if the shock was set too soft, any given bump might not meet the threshold needed to clause the valve to open and let the Ohlins do their magic. Stiffer settings felt like they allowed the DFV to get used more often and lead to the car feeling much better damped in all situations. Which makes sense on some level given the stiffness of the springs Ohlins has used in this set. As you say, it seems like Ohlins developed these focused more on track use. I suspect swapping to softer springs and just running the softest shock settings without getting them re-valved won't yield results you're happy with. Before you go changing parts, try stiffer settings and see if this helps you. This is also kind of a 911 thing. Especially on tires with soft sidewalls like the 4 or 4S. This would go away in large part when I swapped onto RE71R and it would return when I swapped onto street tires like Super Sports or Conti ECS. I could also increase and decrease its presence when running RE71R by adjusting rear tire pressure. Not that bump steer doesn't exist in the 996, but it shouldn't be a massive issue on back roads. Unless maybe your car is very low? Took me a while to figure this out for myself, but the 2 piece movement you feel when loading up in a corner is actually the car telling you it wants you to manage weight transfer on entry better. All that weight slung well behind the rear axle is extremely sensitive to what you do with your hands and how you release the brake pedal on entry. I actually kind of miss that. I'm in an M-car now and it doesn't ask nearly as much precision in this respect. But conversely I also feel like I'm not learning or practicing as much in terms of weight transfer anymore Yep, definitely less droop. The car would routinely 3 wheel on entry during trail braking in off camber elements, but the inside rear wheel isn't doing much at that phase. This is also a bit of a 911 thing too. The only cars I see on 3 wheels at autox than 911s are FWD cars with a stiff front bar

Quotes source post: 18605164

I assumed he meant clicks out from fully closed which is minimum damping.....but maybe thats not what he meant. As a rule, you want to count out from fully closed since fully closed is the only solid ref point. Fully closed means all the oil flows thru the piston valving rather than through the rod/bypass

Ohlins specifically calls out all their settings are from fully stiff so it's an important thing to remember.

Quotes source posts: 18602231, 18605564

IMO this is more likely caused by (or worsened by) the soft factory engine mounts. However there is anecdotal evidence that stiffer mounts can allegedly cause excessive knock sensor activation. Me, I don't believe that; I also don't have an M96 powered 996. I completely eliminated this two-step weight transfer effect with poly engine mounts.

Quotes source post: 18605696

Another good point re. the engine mounts. I actually had the original OEM ones for a while after installing the coil overs and upgraded to OE RS engine mounts later. I could definitely feel a difference, mainly around less secondary movement in the rear. Especially after hitting a bump.

Quotes source post: 18605577

Left = full counter clockwise Right = full clockwise Just easier for me to count since my access to the adjuster ***** r limited

So, I've been rolling around on R&Ts for about a month now and have been super impressed with the ride. I'm currently running them at 11 clicks from full-stiff which has been great for around town, but will probably firm them up by a click or two next time I've got my subwoofer out for something. The ride quality is really good, and the Ohlins are especially impressive at smoothing out the big bumps. I ended up setting them up for around half the drop that Ohlins recommends, since I have a real beast of a driveway apron and that's been working well. At the same time I installed the Ohlins, I also refreshed the rest of the suspension with new arms, drop links, strut mounts and outer tie rod ends. I had my alignment shop go as close to a 996 GT3 alignment as they could on stock components, and do the corner balance for my weight. Would absolutely buy the Ohlins again.

Quotes source post: 18605696

Yeah thanks for jogging my memory on engine mounts. Definitely a big factor. I upgraded to WEVO or RSS (can't recall which) at one point and while it managed weight beautifully, I pulled them out b/c of too much NVH when combined with my lighter flywheel. I swear the engine was pulling timing in some circumstances too. Went back to stock but would just refresh them annually. Which made a noticeable difference

Guess I should chime in ... I fitted my R&T's (that's a misnomer BTW, they're much more biased towards track than road use with their ridiculous spring rates, especially the originally specified rates ...) roughly four months ago. I've fitted dramatically softer spring rates as the car is for road use only, but only after my Ohlins supplier dyno'd the dampers in front of me when I collected them off him, and said he thought that using the spring rates I wanted to use, would still leave the dampers within their optimal adjustment window, but worst case scenario, the car might "fall over" in the corners when driven really hard, in which case some uprated sway bars would be the order of the day. But he also said NOT to automatically go out and buy a set of upgraded bars, but to try driving the car over a wide range of roads first. The car had low mile PS4S's fitted and new stock engine mounts prior to the kit's fiment. The original suspension was 22 years old and had seen 65k miles of use. It was completely silent and knock/rattle free, but having read various reports on here and other forums about refurbishing the 996 suspension, I elected to fit new front and rear top mounts (non Porsche supplied Lemforder OE fronts, Porsche supplied OE rears) and new TRW sway bar droplinks front and rear, along with Eibach adjustable front coffin arms. The damper install was straightforward, and made far easier as whoever had previously maintained the car had coated every fastener with Wurth aluminium paste : https://eshop.wurth.co.za/Product-ca...gid/en/GB/ZAR/ The quality of the damping (which I'd had massive reservations about, having previously run a set of brilliant used but custom built, custom valved and sprung Ohlins 3 way adjustable, ex 996 GT3 RS/RSR remote canister dampers on a Mk1 996 GT3), which back in their day 2001-2 were the creme de la creme of Porsche 996 racecar dampers) But I needn't have worried, the R&T's damping is excellent, this despite the lack of separate bump and rebound adjustment. I intend offering the springs as kit here in the UK, so the rates/lengths are going to have to remain proprietary I'm afraid, but the rates are considerably softer than the reduced rates Ohlins subsequently offered to owners after numerous complaints that the originally specified springs were just too stiff for street use. This individual produced an excellent set of fitment and spring swap videos on YT: You Tube I run the front dampers at 14 off full stiff, and the rear dampers at 16-17 OFS. The car rides beautifully at these settings, and grips ferociously, but any further clicks softer and it starts to feel lazy. A week after fitting the dampers I did a 280 mile trip through Wales which took in some very high speed roads, as well as some much tighter, more technical roads, and by the end of the trip the car was a mass of rattles and knocks Over the next month I ended up replacing all four tuning forks, the steering rack outer tie rods and subsequently the steering rack inner "drumsticks", along with the rear coffin arms. So everything except the rear upper dog bones and the rear toe arms is new on the car, and the car is now once again silent, though the front springs are noisy on their perches when using large amounts of lock at low speeds when manoeuvring into parking spaces etc. The car is lowered some 25mm at the front and 20mm at the rear and looks far better for it : Prior to fitting the Ohlins kit, the car's ride was best described as "unyeilding", not harsh, crashy or noisy, more like the dampers were partially seized (which I suspect they were when I first bought the car in Oct '22) and over the 5,000 miles I drove the car between buying it and fitting the Ohlins, the ride had "improved" but it still felt as if the dampers were partially seized. Whatever was wrong with the OE dampers made the car feel leaden, in so far as it didn't respond to steering inputs well, and overall it didn't feel like a 911, no lightly bobbing front end, no diagonal cross corner "jacking" when hustling the car through a series of S bends, just a solid, unyielding mass that didn't really roll, pitch or squat. All that changed with the fitment of the kit, and the car was transformed back into the 911 chassis that I've come to love through numerous iterations of the GT3/GT3 RS and GT2 that I've owned over the past 18 years. The car is now wonderfully compliant, but hugely grippy, and requires it's weight to be managed, so it's now genuinely fun to drive on our increasing poorly surfaced UK roads as result. Fitting the Ohlins kit was a leap of faith, because I'd read so many reports of the spring rates being prohibitively hard, and a friend had a Gen 2 987 Cayman S that he'd fitted the Ohlins R7T's to, and he too had found the original Ohlins specified spring rates excessive, so he had fitted the softer "option" springs that Ohlins recommended. I drove his car with those softer springs and initially thought it was superb, but then we hit some ridges in the road, the result of poor repairs by a utility provider, and the illusion was shattered. In fact so bad was the crashing through the car, I pulled over to get out of the car and walk back to see the road surface we'd just driven over, as I consider myself pretty adept at reading road surfaces, and had the poorly repaired surface registered in my mind as being severe, I'd have slowed down or tried to avoid the worst of it. When I walked back I was shocked to find the repair whilst poor (the Tarmac had sunk between 3/8-1/2") it was nothing like as bad as the crashing through the car's structure had suggested it would be. I commented to the owner of the car (which I was considering purchasing) that the damper' response was atrocious, to which he concurred, but then said "You should have felt it when the older, stiffer springs were fitted ..." I'd intended buying the car because it was a nicely sorted example in beautiful condition and had been fitted with some nice upgrades : Ohlins, Girodiscs, Wavetrac LSD, uprated engine and transmission mounts, exhaust, ECU remap. I regret to say the Ohlins suspension was enough to put me off buying the car, this despite having chatted to Barry Battle at 3D Motorsports as to how the ride could be improved after reading this Rennlist thread, and specifically Tripedal's comments in post 82 : https://rennlist.com/forums/987-foru...other-etc.html I'm glad a I decided to plough my own furrow and go with softer spring rates, because I really do dislike cars with harsh, crashy suspension (my daily drivers over the past 25 years have been BMW's and with runflat tires their primary ride is generally atrocious) so I expect my "toy's" suspension to be far superior. I'm due to take the car to my Ohlins distributor in the new year, as he's expressed an interest in both sitting in the passenger seat and driving the car to see what he thinks of the finished product ... I'll report back with his comments in due course

I have Ohlins with uprated swift springs in NYC and my car is as good a ride as my stock 997.2 Turbo S I think calling Ohlins will give you more info on suspension settings I run 8 clicks front 11 rear and it’s a beast on the road

Quotes source post: 19184664

An intriguing if somewhat cryptic reply On the face of it you appear to be suggesting either my rebound/compression settings are "wrong" ? or that I'm "missing a trick" with those settings ? or failing that, that the damper internals are in need of changing ? If you don't wish to discuss this further on this thread, do please feel free to drop me a DM, but if that's not the case, do please elucidate further

I found my setting preference through someone in England who ran his car around a street course the number I used was his comprised setting not the slowest or fastest but-the most comfortable contacting Ohlins with your parameters can only help you also remember I have stiffer springs tire pressure also did wonders

Quotes source post: 19184832

Well I was going to say my spring rates are most likely significantly lower than most, if not everyone�s on a 996 C2... And on the basis of that, there there are several variables : Spring length, spring preload, damper travel at static ride height to name but a few, and thus what others are running in the way of rebound/compression settings are possibly/probably more likely to be relevant to those running Ohlins recommended spring rates, and less relevant to outliers like me running rates very much softer than Ohlins specify. But in honesty the settings I�m currently using are just as your source has recommended, ie they could be 3,4 and possibly even 5 clicks stiffer, but over really rough/poor road surfaces, I found the car too stiff and lacking in compliance, whereas going softer, even by 1-2 clicks, made the chassis feel �lazy� and underdamped. Hence I went with the settings I�m currently running, and I have to say I�m very happy with them When all is said done, the balance between ride comfort/compliance and handling/roadholding is a massively subjective matter, and there is no �one size fits all� set up. And I suspect that many would find my car waaaay too soft, both from a spring and damper perspective, but my roots are in rallying, and I do tend to take my cues from that discipline, rather what the circuit racing/trackday crowd choose.

I think the spring rates seem high but maybe the auto industry has has it wrong forever. In the motocross world, spring rates increased and high speed compression damping decreased ...thank you race tech. I don't find my road and tracks harsh at all on high speed movement. Ohlins cut it's teeth in motocross

You are of course right, Ohlins cut it’s teeth developing MotoX dampers, but the requirements for MotoX and road biased suspension on a car are very different... What many forget is that the R&T damper is the “budget” Ohlins range . Engineered in Sweden, developed at the Nurburgring by Ohlins German development team (who are based at the ‘Ring) and manufactured in Japan. The TTX range is manufactured solely in Sweden, and there’s a large price difference between the R&T range and the TTX range. The adjustment facility on the R&T range is compromised by using a single adjuster that controls both rebound and compression, and it impacts on rebound more than compression, the ratio being roughly 80% to 20% compression. A very experienced racecar driver and Porsche racecar builder told me that using Ohlins dampers enables you to use far softer spring rates than most other high end dampers, and you should use the softest spring rates you can, and effectively use the damper to accurately control those soft springs. Doing so will enable maximum traction, and the ability to ride the kerbs without upsetting the car, in a way that firmer sprung cars won’t be able to. As an aside, the DFV system was allegedly developed for the BTCC (British Touring Car Championship) cars, because if you watch video footage of the early BTCC front wheel drive cars racing, they literally leap over the kerbs, because the were so stiffly sprung and damped, and as the drivers sought to gain an advantage on track, they started to increasingly use the kerbs, which on the face of it looked to be faster, but instead actually only served to launch the cars into the air, which meant they lost grip and traction, and were slower. The DFV system allowed the dampers to rapidly blow off the high pressure under compression and stop the cars being launched into the air. You Tube My guess is the spring rates found on most R&T kits work fantastically on the Nurburgring (because it’s relatively smooth and the majority of it is driven at high speed) and also on Germany’s well maintained, smooth roads, but certainly on the UK’s bumpy, cresty and poorly maintained roads, they are at best compromised and at worst, ill-suited. My car will happily traverse the UK’s poor quality minor (B) roads at highly illegal speeds without breaking sweat, thanks to the softer spring rates I’ve utilised. Would the same set up work at the Nurburgring ? I suspect not, but I don’t drive the Nurburgring. Ever. So why would I compromise my car’s set up for use on UK roads by using spring rates tailored for and developed on the Nurburgring ... ?

Quotes source post: 19186077

There's not actually much difference between an optimal motorsport damper and an optimal comfort damper. In both cases, you want the tire loading to change as little as possible as the car goes over the surface. Even loading = no perception of impact as well as maximized tire grip. The question is why some builders and many OEMs insist on using soft-spring, stiff-damper when the math demonstrably doesn't check out. Almost every on-road coilover suspension I've ever seen uses stiffer rates than stock and way less compression damping vs the factory. OEM systems ride OK because the spring and dampers' total combined force on the tire, on initial hit, is about the same as a stiff-spring soft-damper combo, but you end up with more body roll and overall travel needed for the same harshness. The best argument I can see for this kind of setup is that it rolls the front tires past their optimal camber very obviously, so an unskilled driver gets predictable early understeer while experiencing a sporty turn-in response from the stiff damping. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have motorsport and digressive valving (incl DFV, which is basically a well-implemented digressive valve). You match a stiffer spring to stiffer low-speed compression profile which gives you the same sporty turn-in (tire loading) but the spring rate reduces overall body movement. On impact, the damper, which was already contributing less to the tire force, bleeds off as much as it can, further reducing the combined force on the tire. This reduces the increase in tire loading, improving grip over bumps and curbs. But, remember Newton's 3rd Law, the reduction in tire load spiking almost means a reduction in the force transferred from the suspension to the body, which you register as less impact harshness. Case in point, I spec'd out a custom set of BC's for a 1250kg Civic racecar running 10 and 14kg/mm spring rates, almost 4x gain. Impact harshness was a non-issue - it was actually the most comfortable car in a garage shared with two BMW's, an Accord and my 996. But the car would follow undulations in the road where the stock Civic porpoised over them so depending on the frequency of the undulations it could be annoying, even if objectively the car was holding the road beautifully. We drove this Civic to Gridlife events around the USA, set a few records, and sold it to a guy who drove it cross-country back home. If we had used sane spring rates like 5 and 7 or softer, the damping force could have been halved as well, and the whole car would have been pillowy but require close to stock ride height to deal with all the travel this setup would soak up. For UK roads (and for the record, I lived in downtown Baltimore), depending on the frequency of undulations and bumps you would indeed want to soften the springs to work with them - but that doesn't means overdamping the system in return, it just means bringing down the damper to match the new spring rate. End of the day suspension design is all compromise and I suspect there are a bunch of things both your racecar driver and Ohlins are not telling you.

Warning !! Long post. So best get yourself a warm or alcoholic beverage and make yourself comfortable ... There may not be much difference between an optimal motorsport damper and an optimal comfort damper, but there certainly is a difference in their build quality. Both my Ohlins contacts have long, time- served backgrounds in Motorsport. One (a good friend for 40 years) in the World Rally Championship with the Ralliart Mitsubishi WRC team (when Tommi Makinen won all 4 of his WRC Championships) then in Moto GP with Ohlins and currently World Superbikes and the IoM TT with Ohlins, whilst the other worked in World Sports car racing, F2, Touring cars and WEC and is probably THE most knowledgeable Ohlins technician/supplier in the UK and is both well respected and very highly regarded. As I said previously, he supplies and develops Ohlins dampers for Lotus. Quite why you'd think "There's a bunch of things they're not telling me" I'd not know. That is a somewhat bizarre suggestion to make without being party to all the facts, if I may say so. As for the race car driver/builder, my conversation with him took place 14-15 years ago. He was proven to be right, and the spring rates I chose for the ex-996 GT3 RS/RSR racecar, 3 way adjustable, remote canister Ohlins dampers were as a result of his recommendations. Those dampers/springs were fitted initially to my 996 GT2 and then further refined before seeing duty on a Manthey K400 equipped Mk 1 996 GT3. Both were solely road cars. But I've not spoken to that particular individual in at least 9 years, so I'm somewhat doubtful that your suggestion he wasn't or isn't telling me everything is the case. The spring rates I chose for those Ohlins ex-racecar dampers some ten years ago, were initially rejected by an Ohlins qualified technician and UK distributor as being "Far too soft", and he initially refused to to build the dampers with the spring rates I'd proposed using to him. When I told him the reasoning behind my choice of rates, he grudgingly changed his mind, and agreed to build the dampers and valve them to suit, but with the following caveat "If they don't work, or the rear end of the car ends up riding on the bumpstops and the dampers get damaged/leak as result. It'll be on your head, and I'll charge you to repair and rebuild them using spring rates I consider more suitable". I agreed, quietly confident that wouldn't be the case He built them, I fitted them, and then requested he join me in the car to set them up. We used a section of road we both knew well, and after several passes, we stopped and he tweaked the compression and rebound settings, before we did another couple of passes. He then carried out a further adjustment to the front and rear rebound settings, and we did another two passes. He then said wanted to remove some compression damping from the rear dampers, but daren't, for fear they'd be too soft and bottom out in extremis, so he left it that. As we drove back to his workshop, I asked what he thought of the damper/spring combination. His reply : "Quite frankly, I'm shocked how good it is, I honestly thought it would be soft, wobbly mess" ... I've used Bilstein PSS 9's on a 996 GT3. They were distinctly average. I also have a friend who used a set of custom sprung Bilstein PSS 9's on his 996 GT2, he chose the spring rates, and he did so because they were softer than those KW used on their KW V3 kits for the same car. I drove his car and thought it the best suspended, best driving 996 GT2 I'd driven up to then. It was wonderful on the road, compliant, beautifully controlled and joy to drive. These are the custom sprung Bilsteins : I've also used KW V3 and Manthey KW V3's on my Mk1 996 GT3's. Both I considered "average" though in fairness to the Manthey KW V3's, I suspect they were tired and past their best, and subsequently fitting the ex-racecar custom sprung/valved Ohlins to that same car, showed the superiority of a high end racecar damper to a reasonable 0EM +1 type upgraded coilover kit. The "standard" KW V3's fitted to a 996 GT3 I bought were less than 3k miles old and I thought them "very average". I spent an evening with my mate and his custom sprung Bilstein PSS 9 equipped 996 GT2 at Bruntingthorpe : https://www.trackdays.co.uk/tracks/bruntingthorpe/ By which time my Manthey 996 GT3 had been fitted with the ex-racecar Ohlins dampers and it's set up tweaked with Cup rear toe links, and Pilot Sport Cup tyres. Half way through the evening we swapped cars, because even with 580 hp, he was struggling to make any real ground up on my GT3 through the corners. After he'd driven my car he laughed at it's lack of straight line grunt, but loved it's induction and exhaust noise (unsurprising) : You Tube and referred to it's handling, grip and steering as being "like that of a go kart, all whilst riding amazingly" Within twelve months he'd removed the custom sprung Bilstein PSS9's off his car, and fitted a set of ExeTC 3 way adjustable dampers the same as these : You'll no doubt be all too aware that ExeTC supplied the dampers for the Citroen WRC team which won the World Rally Championship with their driver Sebastien Loeb in 2004 , 2005 , 2006 , 2007 , 2008 , 2009 , 2010 , 2011 & 2012 . https://www.exe-tc.co.uk/about-us I subsequently drove his car equipped with the ExeTC's on the road, and at speeds he said he'd not attempted previously (he now races the same car and I'd describe him as a quick and very competent driver) The ExeTC dampers felt pretty much identical to my trusty Ohlins, slightly harsh when cold, but once warned up, they displayed exactly the same "magic carpet ride" at slow, medium and high speeds on the road, as my old Ohlins. The body control too was similarly outstanding. I own the set of ExeTC dampers in the image I've posted, I bought them used (cheaply) in late 2021 to use on my 2002 996 C2, but the costs to refurbish them weren't justifiable for what is $32,000 car. Hence I decided on the Ohlins R&T kit instead. But I did visit ExeTC's headquarters and spent a long time chatting with their chief engineer. High on the list of topics discussed, was, you guessed it, spring rates ... I'd wanted to use the ExeTC's because their whole ethos/ philosophy centres on running the softest spring rates practical and using their damper technology to control them. All of which sounded remarkably familiar. I suggested the spring rates I wanted them to use for the 3-way adjustable dampers I'd taken to them to refurbish, and the chief engineer didn't bat an eyelid, though he wanted to use the latest evolution of their front and rear dampers which would enable greater travel, which effectively meant completely rebuilding the old dampers with new parts, hence the costs which I baulked at. Interestingly, Singer also use ExeTC dampers on their DLS cars : You Tube You'll note Ollie Marriage's comments about "rally" dampers in the video. But I've also owned a car fitted with JRZ's high end dampers some six years ago, they were specified by the previous owner who also owns a CGT, he's trackday hound, and a very accomplished/quick driver too. Regrettably the dampers had been specified with spring rates (600lb Fr, 700 lb Rr) which I considered far too stiff for a road car used for both trackdays and on the UK's bumpy roads (though other Rennlister's I discussed them with, considered them far too soft ...) Whilst driven at speed on billiard table smooth roads, the JRZ's damping was impressive, though no better (and possibly slightly worse) than my then 16 year old ex-racecar Ohlins, but at anything less than high speeds and on roads anything less than completely smooth, they were were truly atrocious, harsh, noisy, totally lacking in compliance and generally very unpleasant to use. I removed them and fitted my trusty ex-racecar Ohlins and transformed the car in the process : https://911uk.com/threads/zanzicup-%....105906/page-2 I also lent my trusty Ohlins to a friend to use on his Mk 1 996.1 GT3 Clubsport fitted with a 3.9 430hp engine conversion, he too is a trackday hound and an extremely quick/committed driver. I passengered with him around the Oulton Park circuit : https://www.msv.com/oulton-park It's a testing, fast, twisty, undulating circuit. The car was fitted with ex-Bentley Continental GT race car slicks https://www.m-sport.co.uk/continental-gt3 and thus I initially considered the spring rates had no place on a car being used with slicks on a race circuit. I figured the softly sprung dampers would be hopeless and out of their depth in such circumstances, but I needn't have worried, as the owner of the car knew otherwise and proved as much when we went out for several 8-10 lap sessions throughout the day. The dampers were, quite frankly superb, the car was completely stable, no excessive roll, pitch or squat, massively compliant over the kerbs (the standout feature for me) and clearly hugely confidence inspiring to drive around what is a quick and tricky circuit. There was one corner Cascades : It's a long, part off camber left-hander that made the rear of the car feel very slightly squirrely and underdamped, but everywhere else the car and its suspension were peerless. I suggested to the owner that we wind some low speed compression into the rear dampers, but he was adamant we left the settings alone, because he knew exactly to expect going around Cascades, and he didn't want to risk compromising the handling on any of the other corners on the circuit. So whilst I'm no Ohlins damper engineer, or indeed a chassis set up expert, I've been around the block a few times, and I think I know what works in/with a Porsche 996 chassis on the street . I have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of a well balanced, front engined, rear driven 1250kg Honda prepared for use on track, so I'm in no place to comment on your findings with that particular chassis, and thus won't

I read your post above but struggle to identify a lesson I can learn from your experience, which I very much would like to. My take aways: -Lower spring rates and accordingly fitting damping coefficients, achieved through re-valving 3-way adjustable race dampers yielded a much better result than an out-of-the-box coil-over sets (both of the single/simultaneously or double adjustable type) with their supplied spring rates meant for road registered vehicles that see the track. -Better performing both on bumpy British roads as well as surprisingly good or even better handling on racetracks. -Almost the same improvement can be achieved by doing the same to a coil-over set at a lower price point (meant for a road registered vehicles). Anything I missed?

Quotes source post: 19188492

I can't speak for the Ohlins R&T's on track performance, or indeed lack thereof, whilst utilising softer spring rates. What am surprised at is the quality of the damping they're able provide at their price point, and despite what others assured me, their ability to run considerably softer spring rates than those originally specified, and still perform admirably on the street. My guess is they would most likely be found wanting under duress on track, but as it's not something I'll be doing, it's not something I concerned myself with. My sole aim was to make the car useable on what many would consider to be the UK's worst maintained roads, without my fillings being rattled, by aging spine hammered into submission, and the car's interior being shaken to the degree it too rattles, creaks and squeaks. When it comes to having a set of high end 3 way adjustable dampers custom built (what you refer to as race dampers, as ultimately that's what the majority would construe as their raison d'etre, whereas I see them as the basis for the very finest road damping available( if correctly valved and sprung, and clearly Rob Dickinson of Singer thought the same) But ... utilising what many specialists would tell you are spring rates they consider to be vastly too soft, the results both on the street and on track are manifold. Others seem to be of the opinion that you can still have your cake and eat it using vastly higher spring rates. That's not my experience. But I also don't see why you would use vastly higher spring rates when I've demonstrated you don't need to. I'd suggest that it may be due to the fact that very few builders/distributors of high end/race dampers are experienced in supplying them in what I would refer to as street spec, rather they'll be building them for trackday cars or race cars, and thus they seem to live by the old adage, "the stiffer the better", something the rally fraternity know not to be the case if you want to maximise traction. Whether this is solely a function of Ohlins and ExeTC's dampers, I'd not know, but I do know that they're the only two high end damper manufacturers I've experience of running what many damper engineers and the UK's leading Porsche chassis set up company, would consider are rates that are "too soft".

Ride quality is highly subjective and I personally have been beyond impressed with the out of the box product for 2 years now. I was also concerned about the high spring rates of the Ohlins but realized you can't think of the spring rates alone and in a vacuum. The dual flow valves that the dampers employ are the reason why they are able to get away with the spring rates that are used. The dampers are also upside down, which increases the stiffness of the whole set up. You need to remember that this is a dual purpose product. Road & Track, as the name states. When that is the case, with anything really, some things will need to be sacrificed. Also, as an amazing product I think it is, it is their entry level coilover, not a racing spec set up where you have multiple adjustments for compression and rebound, low speed and high speed. Additionally, things like upper hats that might have been upgraded to solid from rubber will impact the ride. Heck, around town, I noticed a huge ride quality improvement (to me) with low speed bumps when I switched tires to Michelin PS4S tires. At low speeds I describe them as firm, not stiff and they just get better with speed. The 996 chassis is fairly stiff too so it will transmit a lot to the driver. I had only some track experience with them so far but I recall my instructor saying how well the chassis communicated in the turns, and that was at fairly soft damper settings. My back is all sorts of screwed up after dealing with 2 compression fractures on T8 and T11 vertebrae but I do not hesitate to hop in my car and do a 3hr+ drive.

Quotes source post: 19188612

All true Though with the following caveats : There's roads and there's roads. Germany was/is renowned for the quality of their road surfaces, and the UK's were pretty good up until 20 years or so ago. But Germany's roads are very different in character to the UK's roads, which have numerous twists and turns, crests, humps etc, all of which used to be well surfaced. Not anymore. So a coilover kit that's been developed by Sachs, Bilstein, H&R etc in Germany will most likely feel absolutely fine on their smooth largely featureless roads. But use the same coilover kit on the same car in many parts of the UK, and it will feel at best sub-optimal, and at worst atrocious. I did the Subaru "thing" twenty years ago before buying my first Porsche. I had two Imprezas several years apart. The first was a rare 22B Type UK : https://www.motoringresearch.com/car...a-22b-auction/ One of 16, it was officially imported into the UK by the UK concessionaire, specifically to stem the flow of "grey import" 22b's being imported directly into the UK from Japan by companies and individuals alike. It was an incredible car, though being developed by the Japanese it was criticised by the UK automotive press for having overly stiff suspension... I had to concur, as despite being 4WD and having Subarus DCCD (which enabled you to adjust the percentage of drive between the front and rear wheels) it was a fun, though spiky handling car, and caught me out in the wet on several occasions, just as it did several journalists. That car was stolen and never seen again, and I suspect would now be worth around $300K... Several years later, I bought another Impreza, a P1 : https://caffeineandmachine.com/culto...mpreza-the-p1/ It too was an attempt to stem the flow of grey import WRX STi 4's, 5's and 6's. It was built by Prodrive, who by then had been building and running the Impreza Group A and WRC cars for at least 10 years. They elected to bin the car's Japanese developed suspension and developed their own dampers, springs and sway bars, which they then tested for thousands of miles on some of the UK's best and worst roads. The end product was waaaaay easier to drive and ultimately considerable faster across UK roads than the previous "Flagship" Impreza 22b developed by the Subaru factory engineers. I quote verbatim the owner's comments from the article above that I've linked to : "Although predominantly a racing outfit, Prodrive knows a thing or two about setting up a car for the UK’s uniquely, erm… crap roads. It overhauled the springs, dampers and anti-roll bars to create a chassis setup that was honed for broken, rutted tarmac. Combined with the Impreza’s famed four-wheel-drive system, it was a serious all-weather prospect. You could have your P1 in any colour you liked as long as it was Sonic Blue, and 17-inch OZ Racing alloys – in grey rather than the more obvious, WRC-derived gold – completed the look.The remit of the hot Impreza has always been to put a smile on the driver’s face, regardless of conditions. This is precisely why this example ended up in the hands of C&M co-founder Dan Macken back in 2018. Having just moved back to the UK to get the business going, he was on the lookout for something that would suit British roads – why not an Impreza that had been developed specifically for them? As you've said, ride quality is subjective, and I agree with that, but also what suits one nation's roads, doesn't automatically translate into the same on another nation's roads. As soon as I purchased my car back in October 2022, I removed the 15 year old front Pirelli tyres and the 8 year old rears, and fitted Michelin PS 4S all round. As you've said, the difference in ride quality and refinement was staggering, and no other word describes the difference more accurately. I agree too with your comments, having said exactly the same a few post previously. The R&T's are the cheapest dampers Ohlins produce, and even I was surprised by the quality of the damping. As for your comments about them utilising the standard top mounts, I was adamant that I didn't want spherical bearing equipped adjustable camber plates, hence why I went with the Ohlins and fitted the Eibach adjustable coffin arms to the front of the car, as they gave me the ability to run a wide track arrangement without having to use a 10-15mm spacer, but they also allowed me to run additional camber, whilst retaining the insulated, silent, more compliant top mounts that won't transfer noise into the bodyshell. The Eibach arms use slightly firmer, but still rubber inner bushes and the same applies to the castor bushes (where the tuning forks meet the coffin arm) but having maxed the top mounts out in their slots to the minimum camber position, and then maxed out the length of the Eibach adjustable arms to regain the camber, the castor is now a long way out, so I'll either be fitting a set of adjustable tuning forks, or some adjustable (but solid) castor pucks. My back is just plain old, and I suffer with compressed discs and facet joints that get easily inflamed, so the standard seats had to go, and the suspension had to be as compliant as possible, but well controlled.

Quotes source post: 19188492

This is a huge takeaway. Instead of using DFV and soft springs to compensate for the inverted monotube design, you can start with a much easier problem to solve simply by running low-pressure twin tubes with digressive valving. KW rides softer than Ohlins at a given spring rate from my experience, and that's before pulling Ohlins' tricks like low preload seals that weep a bit on purpose (improves initial response by reducing stiction, but shortens rebuild intervals.

Quotes source post: 19188573

Got it. Thanks for your response.

Quotes source post: 19189612

Low preload seals on an otherwise stock car with rubber suspension bushes and top mounts would be a pointless exercise. In a fully rose jointed car, it may pay dividends, but not on an otherwise stock car with the stiction the many rubber bushes create. And as you�ve rightly said, they weep, which attracts dirt/grit and leads to decreased service life. Not what I was looking for (though fine if you�re a trackhound who inspects their car before and after every trackday outing. KW�s are, just like Ohlins R&T�s, supplied with similarly high spring rates for use on our roads in the UK. Added to which here in the UK, the main service department has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to accommodating individuals like me who want to go �off piste�.

Quotes source post: 19189656

That is a misconception. the rubber bushes exhibit no stiction, as there is no relative movement between parts (like there is with ball joints or polyurethane bushes). The rubber is vulcanised to the inner and outer metal sleeves which in turn are solidly attached to the respective parts that rotate relatively to each other. Any force or torque, no matter how little, exerted onto the bush will lead to a deflection, as small as it may be. As such, by definition of stick-slip/stiction, there is none of that. There is, however, hysteresis, i.e. after taking away the force, a tiny bit of deflection remains. Ball joint show the same behaviour, though. I think what you are hinting at is the additional spring rate that rubber bushes in a suspension add when compared to the same suspension fitted with ball joints throughout. However, that is a non-issue as it is (un)knowingly compensated for by the stiffness chosen for the main spring. The sole use-case of a ball joint over a rubber bush is the much greater radial stiffness of the former. It leads to much reduced toe and camber change under varying drive, brake and cornering forces thereby allowing optimum control over the tyre contact patch. Turning attention to the shock absorbers: the lower gas pressure in a twin-tube design compared to that in a monotube allows the use of seals that will create less drag and therefore stiction thereby improving responsiveness of the shock absorber. This is felt as reduced harshness, although it is not the main (if I'm informed correctly) reason for improved comfort of a twin-tube over a monotube damper. To conclude the above, low drag seals would be beneficial more to a vehicle fitted with rubber bushes than to one 'fully rose-jointed". I agree that for a given seal, a low-drag version will generally compromise the service life.

Quotes source post: 19190308

You are correct Stiction was not the correct term, I meant hysteresis in the OE top mount, along with the torsional force twisting the rubber in a metalastic bush.

[QUOTE=Atgani;19186077]You are of course right, Ohlins cut it�s teeth developing MotoX dampers, but the requirements for MotoX and road biased suspension on a car are very different... I don't agree. Road going suspension needs to be able to deal with a wider range of shaft speed (like offroad M/C suspension). Track suspension mostly deals with lower shaft speeds

Quotes source post: 19189656

Would you consider KW v3 with 4kg/mm front and 9kg/mm rear a good solution for roads that are better than UK roads, but worse than Germany? (case in my country)

Quotes source post: 19186077

[QUOTE=dougn;19191345] You don’t consider those to be fast shaft speeds in the video I posted earlier in this thread then ? That’s an interesting perspective ... and one which begs the question, why then did Ohlins specifically develop the DFV system for the BTCC cars ?

Quotes source post: 19191345

[QUOTE=Atgani;19191457] can you point me to the video? There are many links. As far as the DFV valve....I don't know that they did develop it for a specific track use. However, it would help when running over those corrugated things ive seen. It's a high speed relief valve I assume. I seems to me anyone who could make an effective high speed relief would be able to use higher spring rates and retain the nice stiff chassis control and a track worthy suspension that works on the street.....

Here you go : You Tube

Quotes source post: 19191345

Not if you want to go fast.

Quotes source post: 19193816

Lmao yes. Granted there are exceptions like huge aero downforce - most lap records at Buttonwillow don't launch off curbs. But shaft speeds at Buttonwillow if you DO hit the curbs go way over 10in/sec.

Just been reading this thread comprehensively and I wanted to throw in my two cents worth as owner of a 10.97 build 3.4 Carrera RHD 6MT. Like most owners of these cars, mine has tired standard suspension with 124,000klms. Top Mounts and drop links appear to have been replaced recently with new OEM items, and it is running the standard anti sway bars F&R. Condition is immaculate, and I have added 993 RS engine mounts, transmission mount inserts, and a GT3 short shifter. Wheels are 18" BBS Sport Design 7.5" & 10", however it was delivered new with 18" Turbo 1 (hollow spoke) 7.5 & 10" wheels, which I am having restored at present. Tyres are currently Pirelli P Zero, however I have ordered a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 225/40 and 265/35. Regarding the Ohlins R&T, this is the choice I have made to use for my fast road application. I considered KWV3, and even a M030 factory set up. Like most, I have been reading a LOT on this topic and had felt very comfortable with the Ohlins choice, until I read this thread. Aside from the OP's fantastic experience with a totally stock set-up, and the Ohlins, there appears to be multiple people here that think they are over sprung for road use. When I look at reviews from prominent owners, mechanics and journalists (and the OP of this thread), I just hear and read phenomenal comments about how forgiving the R&T are on bumpy commuter roads in the US and the UK (more than factory stock suspension) and then how incredible they are on the track or fast roads. Amongst these owners / professionals, I am looking at Magnus Walker's red 3.4 Carrera on Ohlins (he says they are great), Matt Vlog's CarWOW own car (he is amazed by the compliance on B roads and fast roads) on youtube (also independently reviewed by a Porsche Factory mechanic who rated it materially better than stock, even with Poly bushes and Tarret hollow ARB's), Luke at 'Friends Green Porsche' who also said the same of the Ohlins R&T when comparing to KWV3's, and multiple other owners on this thread and others that just can't speak more highly of them. Whilst I am not an suspension expert, i have read and watched interviews with Ohlins engineers that state the rationale for their much harder spring rates is to force the wheels onto the roads, so as to increase grip (materially over stock). This is incidentally what this thread and others suggest from those that use Ohlins R&T, that is materially improved grip in corners. I called two top suspension specialists and race team managers here in Sydney Australia, and both highly recommended the R&T for my application. Still, I am reading this thread and just seeing many complaints that don't really explain the problem with the R&T, other than (in my observation) to suggest that the same outcome can be had with softer springs. Have I missed anything here? Failing that, I have my money ready and do plan to buy a Ohlins R&T for my 1998 MY 3.4 Carrera 6MT.

Quotes source post: 19408682

Sounds to me like you're on a quest for absolute clarity before purchase. And that is impossible to achieve. Impossible because subjectivity is at the core of this being the right fit or not. Tangible variables are use case, preferences, the specific type of roughness of the roads (or local tracks) you will use them on, amount of camber, etc. Spring rate of course, but that's is just part of the equation. When it comes to ride quality on the street, damping is probably tied with tires as the most important influencing factors. My old Ohlins + fresh RE71R would ride like a Lexus despite sidewalls massively more stiff than something like PS4S. But by the time the compound had a lot of heat cycles and was worn close the wear bars, the ride would be loud and harsh over small surface imperfections. Same tire, same suspension, totally different experience. Same can be said for any tire really. And lots of cheaper alternatives to good road tires like PS4S have poor ride quality because they are chasing the performance of the PS4S without adding sophistication (dev $$) that allows them to be good in all respects and not punishing in terms of ride quality. And people opinions might also be colored by the type of "bad road" they drive each day with their car. Big undulations are very different than small surface imperfections like you might get on expansion points or driving over brick roads or the rumble strips that warn you're at the edge of the road surface. Undulations allow the springs to compress and get the quality damping engaged, while the small high frequency imperfections do not. Therefore those small surface imperfections they really allow you to feel the stiffness of sidewalls and springs, shocks can't mitigate it. A car with softer springs but lower quality damping (or just old shocks) like the M030 or X73 will often feel even worse/stiffer over poor pavement than the Ohlins, while also being much softer and worse performing when you're actually in a corner. This is the underlying reason why so many people say their ride quality in general improves when jumping to coilovers with high quality dampers. Having driven a lot of Porsche from this era at this point, I can say pretty confidently that if you're not bothered by daily ride quality of m030 with shocks that are a bit aged, or even a fresh x73 with shocks working as well as they can, then you'll be fine with the Ohlins. They'll be no worse in the places where those suspensions feel the worst (probably better) and will absolutely be better once you're having fun and leaning on the car. But again, all this comes down to one key thing: Know thy self. Only you know your preferences and your real world use case and the compromise between ride quality as unobtrusive as a sport sedan and vs performance that is acceptable to you.

Quotes source post: 19408682

I'm often in the Inner West of Sydney if you want to see how Feals 441+ Swift Springs, plus some harsh pillow ball arms work or don't work...I tend to think Ohlins plus a soft spring, made by Atgani had a good case made in this forum. My 996 is on Michelin pilots. My Holden (Chevy SS) due to potholes and supply chains ended up on Bridgestones. Michelin Pilots are a quality tire - pity I punctured 3 in 2 weeks after a big rain event.

Thank you Dean and Seal. these are both very insightful responses, and Seal I appreciate your offer to have a feel of the Feal’s (pardon the pun). Have just re-read your response Dean, and given you are the original poster, and its been many years since you started this thread, it means a lot to me to have your comprehensive reply. Whilst the temptation to go with KWV3 and even the PSS10's, it's the Ohlins that I feel most at ease with. To your point, putting my driving into context, my car is really just a Sunday toy to effectively drive early and fast. Usually, my prior cars (930, 2.7 MFI Carrera, 914.6 GT, 71T, 70 240Z) were all put back into the shed by 730am after a drive, breakfast and a coffee. So, I target fast twisties and freeways. The idea of commuting is not something I intend to use the car for, and all of my cars tend to be kept to a very high standard, so old and worn out tyres will typically not be an issue. If I use the RS mounts as an example, I have read here and elsewhere that these are 'too harsh', 'stiff', 'jarring' and materially increase NVH. My experience is anything but that, and that they are exactly what the car should have had from the factory. Similarly with my 71T. I installed sway bars, had the Koni's re-valved to 'Sport' setting, and installed all new rubber (Elephant Racing) bushes. That car was not rock hard, but 'firm' with a genuine sport purpose / sunday smile maker. I intend (and expect) the same for my 996, and so based on yours and other experiences (plus the experiences from Magnus (who incidentally complains on his video abt the rubbish tyres on the car while testing), Matt Watson Car 'Did I ruin my 996 with Mods', Friends Green Porsche and many others, the choice to use the Ohlins appears sound, and rational. Have a look at this youtube vid on a B road in the UK (Mat Watson), on Ohlins R&T, Powerflex poly bushes throughout and Tarret updated ARB's, and even semi-solid engine mounts. Hard to mount a negative argument from what i can see - from 9:54.... You Tube I must say, of all the cars i've owned, the 996 Carrera is by far the most capable and best handling car out of the box (even on standard suspension, no LSD and the less desirable / worn Pirelli P-Zeros). It seems to me to have so much potential, hence my quest to properly understand the best suspension application for my requirement. Again, this has been super helpful, Thank you!

Quotes source post: 14447801

How have they held up over time? Did you get them revalved? Do you still have the car?

Just as an FYI to anyone looking for Ohlins R&T, we (Essex Parts Services) are an authorized reseller of these systems. We have been a longtime Rennlist and PCA sponsor, primarily for the AP Racing and Ferodo Racing brakes we sell. We recently got behind Ohlins and are currently adding the various applications to our website . We even have an ex-Ohlins employee at our facility who can do rebuilds and service work. Feel free to reach out to us for a quote. Thanks!

I have 28k miles in 3 years worth of street driving + 2 track days on my Ohlins R&T. Still very happy with the decision and I have not experienced any issues at all. Coilovers still look great and I haven't seen any leaks on the dampers.

Quotes source post: 19579330

I've got it now. It's still very good. Was able to get .3 off FTD against a really quick Z06 with it, and normally finish in the top 5. I did put adjustable swaybars on it, and run the rear bar quite soft.(it was a bit too loose in the rear) Shocks are at 5 from full hard. I was lifting the inside tire a lot at the last autox. I probably should get them sent out and rebuilt, just because of the age and miles. They still look nearly new.

Did anyone make a list of settings for the 996 on the Ohlins R/T ?

Quotes source post: 19582750

Looks as if you don�t carry any for 996s?? This IS a 996 list!

Hey man, wanted to see if you still had this car and are still in the DC area? I live in Cheverly MD and would love to experience if you're available. I have an e90 m3 and am thinking of getting a 996 and these are the coils I'd more than likely go with. Let me know!