Received the Retrofit but wish I went with the Sulotion

Okay here goes... Recently had the Intermediate Shaft Retro-fit Service completed but now I wish I paid the extra dough to go with the IMS Solution Retrofits. But wondering if anyone else had the same feelings? I located my local shop from http://imsretrofit.com/ . I apolize for my spelling error(s) LOL Thank you for any input

So I went with the ceramic bearing LN solution instead of the IMS Solution because of cost and after much soul searching. This car is already 15 years old and the expected life of what i did is 6 years or 75K miles. I don't think I will keep it that long but this was less than half the cost of the Solution. So for my pocketbook, my peace of mind, the many, MANY comments and feelings on this site, i am comfortable with my decision. Even if I keep the car and do this bearing a second time, I am still ahead of the game since by then I will probably need a clutch anyway. So make your decision and be happy with that. Most of all, Happy Motoring!

If you fit The Solution, suggest you fit a new clutch +DMF also- then you will have a verrrry long time before you need to split the trans from the engine. Yes this increases the cost of the job in the short term but long term it should be both a saving and peace of mind.

Hard to say. I remain puzzled by the recommended service interval on the LN Engineering retrofits, particularly if the new bearing is some type of two-race model. With good lubrication (frequent changes with top flight oil); no grease bleed-out risk (as with the original design); and an upgraded, durable ceramic construction, then assuming the extracted bearing was in great shape (suggesting a lack of a run-out issues on the shaft), why would these not last 200,000+ miles?

Ims solution is hands down the way to go bc even the retrofit will still need to be serviced.

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Agreed. Probably CYA. Once you have the LN tool, just change the bearing every clutch change -is what some suggest. Never understood why a plug for the IMS tube is not supplied with most IMSB kits.There is a such plug for The Solution and it seems a good idea to prevent oil flowing into the tube.you fit it into the IMS tube before fitting the bearing. This is a particular concern with cheaper IMSB kits that have just one inner seal on the bearing . That seal will tend to keep the IMS tube 1/3 full of oil. That is a condition that was never intended in the original design. With the more open cylindrical roller bearing kits like RND, the oil that flowed into the IMS tube while the engine was stopped, would get spun out once the engine starts? Just get The Solution to spare yourself this puzzlement ?

I did change the clutch so I am good there. But when you say it will need service are you referring to replacement? Thanks again to all for their input

i went the the LN pro, not really due to cost. I quite like the eps roller bearing, but my local indy was more comfortable with the LN pro. and i wanted to ensure it was install correctly. The part of the IMS solution i didnt like, is the braided hose from the oil filter under the car to the bearing. in my experience with other cars, especially off road this is a very bad idea. there is a potential point of failure although small that this pipe will become compromised and leak out your engine oil. Reminds me of a certain oil cooler i had on a racing quad. for that reason the eps solution, with potential internal oiling seems like a better fix. that was my logic and i this is one of those things that has no right or wrong answer. Time will tell if i was wrong.

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You theoretically need to service it because of the risk it can grenade the engine. It's not directly linked to any documented wear pattern or cycle with the retrofit bearings (from what I've read - pls correct me if this is incorrect ). Unfortunately the whole discussion involves more unknowns than you get on a normal part longevity discussion. /Rumsfeld out

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Somewhere there is a response from Raby regarding the hose issue and IIRC he says he has run a engine for hours with the braided hose disconnected with no issues certainly no catastrophic loss of oil. Someone may be able to find that post more quickly than I can.

I think there's little doubt that The Solution is the best "solution" to the bearing issue but for many of us we have to consider cost, length of ownership, driving style, mileage and other parameters. I wish we could all do it. 10 years ago this would have been a no brainer, but with the reputation of the 996 I am happy with my decision. I don't even think I will get back my investment that I've already put in the car but if I can get 5 years of peaceful ownership it's a win for me.

He is right. A 5 year time horizon is the new reality and it is even worse for Boxsters - even the S .The car's value is so low, and still falling that the total cost of an IMS Solution makes no (financial) sense.Fortunately there are enough enthusiasts who ignore the numbers. Just pencil out a simple total cost comparison of The Solution compared to RND roller bearing IMS kits ! It is difficult to justify even if you claim an increase in the resale value of the Solution. Sad.

Same thing happened to me, Indy recommended the bearing rather than the solution. After I was having the same thoughts so I did some calculations I could buy almost 3 bearings and installation for the price I was quoted for the solution and the install (im in Australia it's not cheap here).

Local dealer quoted me $3,308 for IMS bearing replacement and RMS. Indy (LN Certified Installer) quoted me $4,577 for IMS Solution, RMS, clutch and AOS Chose Indy and had Solution done with the other stuff. Couldn't be more pleased.

Very helpful data point in all the waffle ! Thanks for sharing. To do the apples/oranges thing -for $3308 - which IMS bearing "Single Row Pro"? or ?

here we go again......but I will add I did the Single Row Pro(actually dual row) by one of the few LN engineering recommended installers and my car is a low mileage car. but trust your indy and you will be fine with what you did. I will need clutch down the road so replace then. 6/75 is long time and I know I wouldnt get near that before I trade to another P car.

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The quote just said "aftermarket IMS bearing" and the part cost was listed as $1,199. When I asked what bearing they would use and that I had seen lower prices the response was I could supply the part if desired. I asked about warranty and was told "no warranty or guarantee on repair as it is a presumptive aftermarket upgrade". At this point I had enough info to choose the Solution.

Not CYA.. Ball and roller bearings have service intervals. Finding these can sometimes be a challenge, but they do exist. We even found the interval for the single row 6204 OEM IMS Bearing.

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"Aftermarket" and no brand name does not sound very reassuring does it? For 30%($1000) more you got the bonus of the AOS replaced plus the best product for the job. That was a smart choice imho.

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Technically the Single Row Pro is a staggered 2 row bearing.You can see that clearly in the link: http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...-ims-retrofit/ The significance is that it does not have quite as many ball bearings as a comparable regular 2 row bearing(5204). But obviously it is a huge improvement in load capacity and other factors over a single row (6204). This isn't my analysis.It is in the Timken Bearing catalog and elsewhere: https://www.google.com/patents/US4055371 There is even a self aligning 2 row linked below in Fig 6.15: https://books.google.com/books?id=aL...20ball&f=false

Put on the LN spin on filter and install the solution when it comes time to replace it. The classic is better than standard the pro is better than the classic and the solution is better than the pro. So you've got the middle of the road option, nothing wrong with that. The less you think and the more you drive the happier you will feel...

So got my car back yesterday. Shop did a great job. Ceramic LNE bearing was 788.00 plus install for a total of $2100. I also did a few other things, had the intermittent starting issue cxhecked. I had already replaced the switch so I knew it wasn't that. They think it's an intermittent clutch switch. Bypassed it for now and we'll see if the issue comes back. So far the car starts every time so they may have figured that out. I automatically press the clutch before starting any manual car but I may have the switch replaced to keep it stock and prevent "others" from making a mistake. They found a leak from the tranny and fixed that. They found a CV joint boot clamp loose and fixed that. They replace a couple rubber strips at the front bottom of the wheel wells and finally did a complete verification of the car.v All good including the clutch and throwout bearing. Car drove well before and seems to rev easier but that's probably in my mind. Happy with the result and at least knowing that for the foreseeable future, no worries. Total cost was $2900.00. Seems like an honest shop. As I stated earlier, they are highly recommended and are featured in the local chapter of the PCNA magazine. In fact, it took an extra day for my car because they arrived home late from a day of racing and a couple guys took Monday off. They race a Boxster. Saw the car and it looks mean.

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Please tell us the name of the shop. They did a great job,charged a fair price - we need to know of and support such Indies.

Wasn't sure if I'm allowed to post shop names but here goes. BTW I am just a customer and have no affiliation with the shop. It's Power Tech in Rockaway, NJ. Speak to Mike Daino, one of the owners there.

It is the Truth,decent and honest - so why not ?And they are PCA guys! Hopefully the extra business will convince Mike Danio at Power Tech to become a Sponsor -or at least chime in with suggestions on some threads. You may notice that the few real mechanics who Post here have the most useful practical advice. A recent classic example was a Mech Eng who suggested pre-filling the oil filter to speed up building pressure after an oil change. One 'mechanic' gently advised against it and explained why on this peculiar engine, that was not effective. So, we need a few more like him and maybe Mike Danio will chime in occasionally ?Here they are: http://www.pwr-tech.com/

I have two separate Indy shops here in Colorado that have both quoted $2,200 Price mentioned above seems fair.

Yes that does seem a fair price. Just do your research to make sure you're comfortable with whichever shop you use.

Cheap prices kill. Fair prices can kill IF the shop doesn't perform a pre- qualification inspection. You are not getting a "DEAL" if a Retrofit of any variety is performed on an engine that has a pre- exiting (unidentified) issue, or a failing bearing already. I'm instructing my Technician Hands- on class this week, and one of the shops attending has an IMS Solution being installed today. This shop isn't a Certified Installer, but they asked me to look at the picture that their tech took when inspecting the oil filter. It failed horribly, with tons of main, and rod bearing material clearly evident in the engine. Thats the kind of shop that deserves to be Certified, and if they continue to impress me in the class, they might get an invite to the program. This car failed the procedure, and the owner is being told that the procedure can't be performed. That's one more potential liability removed from the IMS Solution reputation. All it takes is one person not caring, or not doing what's prescribed, to kill the reputation. We've kept it at 100% since the beginning, by having a true program, and by some type of miracle, coupled to a product that's super resilient to issues by using "just filtered oil". So again, DO NOT look for the cheapest price, or even the most "fair price". Only go with someone who gives a damn, and will spend your money wisely by ensuring the engine is free of pre- existing issues.

I agree. My shop did a complete check of the car and was satisfied that the bearing that was in there along with the rest of the components was in good shape. I wasn't looking for a "deal'. I was looking for a middle of the road solution that I could afford. As I stated previously, I wish I could afford the IMS Solution but this was the best option that gives me some peace of mind for the future. I also was keeping in mind that some original bearings last 200K miles so this was preventive as it is for all of us. I most certainly respect Jake, his company and the certified installers who follow his program.

Or is it? Not for some, even though they may enter into the situation believing so. The instances we are most concerned with are those where a symptomless condition exists that is overlooked by the technician, setting things up for disaster at a later date, post- retrofit. These are the cases where an original bearing is at stage 2 or 3 of failure, and hasn't become asymptomatic as of yet. This is why I instruct every technician that every M96 powered vehicle that comes through their doors is guilty until proven innocent. The mindset must exist that every engine is failing, and you just have to look hard enough to find it. Once someone achieves this mindset, they'll never make a bad judgment call on an IMS retrofit procedure, and issues will not get past them. They just have to open their eyes, and engage their brain. Again, this Retrofit procedure was developed to be an elective action, not reactive. Things can become reactionary very quickly, no matter how the process begins. Esfoad, It sounds like you had a good case, and all went well. Make sure that the shop follows through wit the registration process, as the job isn't completed until the paperwork is done. Maybe they already did it.

I'm going back there next week for a followup on some of the other items I asked them to look at and I will check to make sure registration is completed. Thanks Jake.

My engine failed for other reasons, and when replacing it, I went with the Solution. Moneywise I was already in it for a new/remanufactured engine with zero miles getting a new clutch and DM flywheel. So it seemed like false economy to save a grand not installing The Solution. I've never replaced a clutch in any car I've driven since new until well over 150K. So replacing a bearing at 75K would negate any cost savings and leave me with a variation of the OEM design. But if I were retrofitting a car with 50+K on it I would have gone with the single-row Pro. Perhaps the other designs are great, but LN's are the ones with the most R&D and the most in-service data.

Ben z's reasoning is faultless.

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10-4!

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+ 996

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This reasoning is why the IMS Solution is all that we use for Retrofits, or engine reconstructions. Thats the ONLY reason why I invented, and developed it. I will say that if I had it to do all over again I would have never released the product for others to install. That was only done to put competing technologies in their place after I got pissed off one too many times... the slightly older, and much wiser version of me would have kept 100% of IMS Solution installs occurring under this roof.

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I hope I never get there but if I'm in a position where I must rebuild or replace an engine then the Solution is definitely the way to go.

I just got my car back from having the Solution installed, along with a new clutch, DMF, and AOS. Was pleased to find an upgraded single-row bearing that looked like it had been installed many years ago, in good condition, but I've got no regrets with upgrading to the solution and I am able to enjoy the car more by not having to worry about it. The clutch and flywheel replacement also made a much larger improvement than I'd expected. Because it never needs servicing, and comes with a spin-on oil filter kit, the Solution seemed like the only reasonable choice, and I'd expect that it adds every penny spent on it to the value of a well-maintained car. I believe that Jake Raby said that the Solution was the one accomplishment that he was most proud of, and I would feel like a fool if I tried to save a few dollars by going with anything lesser.

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Great. Which shop did the work for you in that area? I have 1/4 of my life (not exaggerated) invested in the IMS Solution invention, and development. I damn sure better feel accomplished after all that!

I had the upgraded ceramic bearings installed last April. I also considered "The Solution" but do to the mileage 82K plus several other maintenance items I needed done I opted for the ceramic upgrade .

Some points on this.... As part of the M96 Engine Rebuild School last week we had a big conversation between Technicians attending the class.The general consensus of the experiences that these techs and shop owners had were people are considering long term ownership more today, than a couple of years ago. A couple of shop owners said that they've taken the same approach that we have, by only installing the IMS Solution, and not even giving the option for anything else. Their reasoning for this was a lot like mine, where we know the labor associated with the two is within one hour of each other, and the engine is protected for its lifetime, and even beyond, since the IMS Solution can be reused during a rebuild. It seems that addressing the IMS Bearing issue now has two groups of owners... The group that wants to do the job as cheaply as possible, and don't care about longevity, and the group that is into their car for the long haul, and wants to do this job once, and be done with it forever. This aligns with the sales figures of the different products, since the "Classic" bearing line sales have decreased, while IMS Solution sales have quintupled. The supply can't keep up with demand, even when it was more than doubled earlier this year.

I must say I take offense to the words "as cheaply as possible". I bought this car without knowledge of this issue. My bad for not doing my homework. But since looking into this and seeing some owners never changing the factory bearing and driving their cars over 100000 miles without issue and others having a major breakdown with low mileage, the cheap "fix" is to do nothing at all and praying you fall into the first category. The "solution" I did is a proven update that is recommended to change after 6 years or 75000 miles but since some of the factory ones have gone so far, these will probably last longer. I do not race my car nor do I drive it extremely hard all the time. But it's my fun car and I do enjoy it. That said, I will probably not keep it for THAT long, I will look to upgrade to a newer model as they become more cost friendly. So, while I totally respect the engineering of the IMS Solution and Jake and his shop, there are alternatives for those of us who do not want to spend that kind of money on a 15 year old car, give or take. I don't think that makes me cheap.

But using your own description , because you did not know about the M96's issues & you only want to pay for a shorter term fix because of price . This may become an "M96 issue" for the next owner. And Porsche M96 cars prices reflect that risk. And it isn't just the IMSB. There are at least 28(?) M96 "Modes of Failure". Any one of those could sting you with way more than the cost of The Solution. To mitigate that risk,there is Rennlist . Caveat Emptor.

Without wanting to get into a pi$$ing match here, I am just saying the prior owner didn't care about me, and I will tell the next owner the repairs I did and what expectations they can have for future life expectancy. I have sold many cars in my life and have always been honest with the condition. Now on your comment that there are at least 28 M96 modes of failure, the IMS Solution will not prevent all of those. So 996 ownership is a crapshoot but fun as he11 when it's working. Mine is working now, I have no fears that will stay for at least a while (I hope) and I wish all owners to have fun, be happy with your decisions and move forward.

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X3. I am right there with you. I believe the recommendation has to be a ultra safe conservative number of miles.

I'm pretty good at offending people. It gets easier everyday, as the modern human takes offense with almost everything. That said, I wasn't directing my statement to you at all, since you did apply an LN product to the engine, and none of those are cheap. What I was referring to should have been more clear, and thats my fault. "Cheap" was meant to be directed toward the IMSB kits sold on eBay, and other suppliers for a couple hundred bucks. These use off shore bearings (the "best" of them uses a Romanian bearing!) and thats what too many people are trying to convince shops to install. Again, the IMS Solution can be reused over and over again, and can be swapped from engine to engine without issue. I have one kit thats been installed into over a dozen engines, in 4 different vehicles. We recently had one customer who wanted to upgrade his car from a Boxster to a first Gen 997 with the M96 diameter (early 2005) IMS bearing. He had his local shop remove the IMS Solution from the Boxster, and replace it with a Single Row Pro. He then kept the IMS Solution, and had it installed into the 997, once he took delivery of it. All they did was replace the outer seal, and the inner diameter O ring, for good measure. Its considerations like this that make the IMS Solution more valuable than the price tag. You can't do these things with any other form of IMSR technology.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry for taking offense, we have a saying here at the office that it's better to talk on the phone because it's so easy to read between the lines of the written word. I am guilty of that here. Once again, I completely understand the value of the IMS Solution and wish I could have done that now, but not knowing the exact history of the car, I wanted to do something for peace of mind and this worked for me.

Given the car is between 12 to 16 yrs old the solution makes sense primarily to a collector Partsgeek sells the Single Row Pro for $583 and IMS solution for $1444. My local mechanic in Houston charges 12 to 15 hrs of labor to install the IMS Pro which he removes the engine. Labor for the solution is about 3 hrs more. The difference in price between the IMS Pro and Solution pays for a clutch kit, RMS and waterpump and spark plugs. I say take care of more problems for the same money vs just installing the IMS solution and drive your car without worries Then in 5 years or 75K miles you can decide if you want to keep your 17 to 21 yr old car or upgrade to something more modern without IMS issues.

One less option for me to think about as I have no Certified techs here in Hawaii...

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Convince one of the west coast guys to take a vacation and pay his air fare.

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I got my 2004 996 with 52k miles about 8 months ago. It had a clean PPI. After reading many threads I decided to go with the LNE ceramic bearing. My decision was based on both cost and the idea that I would keep it for a few years, enjoy driving it and upgrading to a 2010/2011 997 or maybe even a tt when their prices start to drop. After driving it over the last 8 months, I have enjoy the h-ll out of it and now wonder if I will ever trade up (if it is even a "trade up"). Even though my feelings about this car have changed, I have no remorse what so ever and if decide to keep will just maintain/replace at 6 years (since I probably will not have the 75k miles on it). I just enjoy driving it and am learning (as I read more threads) that the simplicity of this car over the electronic controls that the newer models have may keep me in it for years to come.

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Thats a big risk... There's a 90% chance he'd not be invited to the program.

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I would never jeopardize someones good standing (not my style)!

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Thats why I posted my statement. One thing is for sure, anyone who comes to a class with only the intent of being selected, certainly will not be selected. I can see those guys a mile away. I am looking for the real guys, with busted knuckles. The ones that aren't filled with image, or have big ads, or a big reputation that's fake. That alone omits 90% of most people/ shops.

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I meant pay for a "certified" west coast guy to visit Hawaii.

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Probably will which is exactly why I opted for the retro fit over the solution

I bought an '03 with 50K miles. I negotiated the cost of the solution, expansion tank, and RMS off asking price. Simple enough. The whole world knows about this issue by now, there are plenty of 996's for sale, so leverage the seller. I never understood the "I can replace the IMS 2-3 times for the cost of the Solution" bean counting. If you know you can fix it forever the first time, it is a service free part, it increases re-sale value, and gives that much more piece of mind, why not?