Shady dealership possibly trying to weasel out of warranty work on a rebuild.

EDIT

Is it a Porsche dealership? Did they say who rebuilt the engine? If It's a Porsche reman engine, its engine number (driver side right above the sump plate) should have "AT" in it.

What did your BILL OF SALE say? And what did the "warranty" stipulate, particularly the FINE PRINT ? I am not a lawyer but IMHO, that above two documents which is what BUYER and SELLER signed, will determine what recourse you may have, if any. Best of luck. P.S. May I suggest consulting a lawyer about slander/oral defamation before you go on the war path!

i would suggest holding back from any sort of defamatory name calling until you have all the facts. waiting a year after indy tells you there are issues?? not so bright just exactly what is in your sales paperwork regarding the engine work? did the dealership state it was a complete rebuild, used engine replacement, factory engine replacement, etc.? during the anticipated purchase, with heightened emotions and excitement running at top speed, what you think you heard can be a lot different than what was stated or written on the sales paperwork.

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First thing I would do is have a conversation with the place that you bought the car from instead of going keyboard bat$hit on RL. Gotta tell yuh though your anger and anxiety is a bit over the top.

So Porsche (a dealer) rebuilt an engine with IMS bearing failure that detonated? Not likely. As Ahsai asked - what is the engine number? That will tell all. A leaky rear main seal is not the end of the world...aggravating but not the worst. Hopefully the Porsche dealer will work with you on this one, or, if not, replace seal and move on. @45K there will be a lot more to address in the future. I understand your frustration, but.....I would not go "Postal" on this one.

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looking forward to reviewing the paperwork

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Then move on and get it fixed.

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less talk - more paperwork

Here they are https://i.imgur.com/qFpLNl2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/F9FMD5q.jpg?1

Is this it? http://www.porscheofhuntington.com/u...era-4_s-u1377/

It is not.

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The VIN on your receipt matches the VIN on the link no? 2003 4S midnight blue?

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theres not one word mentioning engine rebuild on this somewhat crude paperwork - no machine work/pistons/rings or any mention of integral engine parts normally replaced during a rebuild looks like they tore the engine down and cleaned it?? not sure if that would be considered normal protocol on an IMS bearing failure?? considering metal particles/shavings/bits being scored against cylinder walls and scoring other internal components. totally suspect situation but since there is no mention of engine rebuild and it's been over a year, i think you are SOL (sh_t out of luck)

The work is warrantied for 2 years on the IMS. The cylinders were resleeved according to what they told me. I'm firend's with the service manager, and he said the engine is warrantied for 2 years.

"The VIN on your receipt matches the VIN on the link no? 2003 4S midnight blue?" The year, model, and color are correct. That is not my car, though. I live in the western US. All service was performed here.

he said, she said, they said - yeah sure whatever they say. wheres the warranty?? do you have the IMS serial number sticker?? have him put warranty info in writing - then you can call him your friend - until then consider them enemies

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No where on your paperwork does it say "resleeved". And your friend, the service manager is the one you are ready to go postal on? This ain't adding up Lucy.

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But your VIN matches the VIN on the link. Who can do a carfax on this? WP0AA29963S621573

is this KK in disguise??

"wheres the warranty?? do you have the IMS serial number sticker?? have him put warranty info in writing - then you can call him your friend - until then consider them enemies" How do I get this sticker, and what will that sticker mean for me? Duly noted. "No where on your paperwork does it say "resleeved". And your friend, the service manager is the one you are ready to go postal on? This ain't adding up Lucy." My friend is the service manager. I became friends with him after purchasing the car, and he nearly bought it himself. I'm not going to go postal on the guy. The man who sold me the car is a total piece of ****. I have done other business with the dealership, and he never even says hi. I went to another salesperson at this dealership because of it, and he made a stink. I told the manager of the place that dude can kick rocks, because he has never so much as said hi to me when I'm in the dealership. I had never done business with my current salesperson, and they always made a point to say hello, and treated me kindly.

"hydrolaw" are you incapacitated in any way? you make no sense - you come to the forum with a rant that you have no way to back up? no warranty paperwork no proper sales docs showing any sort of warranty no proper parts list for engine rebuild no labor list for engine flush/etc all talk - no substance sounds like a bunch of BS BUT has some entertainment factor - sort of like KK is back

Just talked to the service guy on the phone. IMS and RMS were both replaced, cylinders were resleeved, and engine was re-sealed completely. It might simply be that I do not have all the paperwork. He is confident that this is a warranty issue. Righ tnow we are waiting to hear back from the service manager, who is in the air coming back from Atlanta right now. I don't understand the insults, groovzilla. You do know that all work and parts performed by a Porsche dealership are warrantied, do you not, or are you incapacitated in some way?

So the current issue is that you have oil spots - which you're assuming is the RMS, but no diagnostic work has been performed? There is some warranty text on the bottom right corner of the first page, but it is illegible. What does it say? If the part was not replaced during the repair work, why do you feel that it should be warranted against failure as part of the repairs? Even if the seal WAS replaced - which certainly seems rational if the engine was torn down, is it safe to assume the car was provided as-is, no warranty, like any other 12-year-old used car? It blows me away that your Porsche dealership would have installed an LN bearing - this is diametrically opposed to what we've heard from other Porsche dealers during IMS work. OP, I think you need to have another discussion with your buddy the service manager. If he told you the car was getting a "rebuild," he did you a disservice. If he was aware that this was a repair job and not a rebuild, why was he so eager to buy this gem? It always sucks when something goes wrong, especially on something you believe should be working perfectly - but I'm not seeing any indication that they owe you a new RMS. Where exactly is the warranty text? Ultimately, the warranty is the meat of this argument; everything else is just chucking rocks at the barn.

i'm usually a very pleasant person. you have a poor way of communicating and your story about the vin is suspect. how does vin# not match?? it got to the point in this thread that i was sure you are a troll i still think you might be so why don't you produce the warranty information paperwork/sales paperwork the dealership gave you so we can be sure you are not some nutjob trying to play games??

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$41,995!?! My investment is finally paying off!

I'm not a troll. I have video proof of my car, the vin on my car , and the oil spots underneath, uploading right now. You are correct, 5CHN3LL, that I have not dropped the engine/transmission to determine that it was, indeed, and RMS failure. I can only assume that it is something going wrong in that area based on the oil I observed coming from the bell housing when I put it on the lift this weekend. Since I have the paperwork for the IMS replacement, I have assumed the RMS to be the cause of the problem. However, I now have written, as well as a conversation that I have recorded, confirmation that the IMS and RMS were both replaced, the cylinders resleeved, piston heads replaced, and the entire engine resealed. To groovzilla, I am deeply sorry that I do not meet your standard of communication. I have not owned a Porsche before, so you'll have to forgive me not knowing every last detail on my car. All I can go by is the correspondence I have. I have a recording of this service person telling me that the complete rebuild, and yes he used that terminology, is warrantied for two years. I also have emails that say the same. As you will see in the video I am going to post, the VIN on my car matches the paperwork I have, but obviously the most logical assumption to make is that I am simply a troll, and not that someone entering a 17 character string of letters and numbers into a website got one wrong. How incredibly gracious of you to do that. And I'm sure you're normally just the nicest of nicest guys, really I am. When I'm met with a communication error, I try to get to the bottom of the miscommunication, but I guess you're just a normally nice person that resorts to insults when the person you're speaking to has done nothing of the sort.

thread delivers

subscribed...

Meine porsche - YouTube There's the video of my car with the correct vin number and everything. Not sure why it's all cockeyed, so bare with me while I try to figure it out. EDIT: Should be fixed now.

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Well, the good news is that it seems like a lot more work was done than the paperwork (at least the pages you posted on imgur) suggests was done...although this would make me awfully suspicious that on paper you have some new gaskets and an oil pump, but on the phone you have resleeved cylinders and a bunch of other stuff. The bad news, of course, is that you have an oil leak. In my experience (which includes some cars that have needed a WHOLE lot of repair), mechanical work is not guaranteed. Sometimes a mechanic will fix something that breaks within a couple of months as a goodwill gesture, but you're 14-15 months out, right? Unless you have a warranty stating something to the contrary, I don't think it's reasonable to expect additional repairs. If you were the original owner, and the car kablooied just prior to your warranty expiring - and then again started leaking a year later, I think it would be reasonable to ask for some assistance - but this is a 13-year-old car you bought knowing that it had already suffered some substantial failure. Further unsolicited and probably unappreciated advice: I don't think they OWE you anything at this point; honey might work better than lemons in this instance. Good luck. Hopefully it's a loose oil drain plug, and you and your C4S can resume your love affair.

Based on the parts replaced on the receipts, it was a repair because only the parts that were needed or broken were replaced. The major parts are IMSB, one scavenge pump, one cam rail and ARP rod bolts. The rest were mainly gaskets. It does support that the engine case was split and the engine was torn down at least to the crankshaft carrier as you can see they used new piston wrist pin circlips. The main and rod bearings were not replaced. No new piston rings points to no cylinder resleeve. RMS was not on the receipt so it may or may not have been replaced. Your oil leak could be from the RMS or the IMS or both and no one will know till the transmission is removed. I think the important part is knowing what exactly went into the repair so you can set your expectation accordingly.

P.S. out of sheer curiosity, how did the indie divine that the internals of your engine were not serviced while replacing the water pump?

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Now my mind is officially blown.

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Please post a copy of the warranty.

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Did you miss this part? My indie is good, but he sucks at describing the condition of the cylinder walls via the water pump.

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Maybe his indie has the "Shining."

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Here is the answer.

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IMO, all decent professional m96 rebuild should include a new water pump. So the indie is using the reverse logic I guess.

"In my experience (which includes some cars that have needed a WHOLE lot of repair), mechanical work is not guaranteed. Sometimes a mechanic will fix something that breaks within a couple of months as a goodwill gesture, but you're 14-15 months out, right? Unless you have a warranty stating something to the contrary, I don't think it's reasonable to expect additional repairs." I have it in writing and in conversation that the work and parts performed at this dealership for this job are warrantied for 2 years. I cannot offer anything more than that. Also, I just had the radiators replaced, and the parts and labor for the job are warrantied for one whole year. My indy shop warranties the work as well, so I'm not sure where you're getting this info. "Further unsolicited and probably unappreciated advice: I don't think they OWE you anything at this point; honey might work better than lemons in this instance." "RMS was not on the receipt so it may or may not have been replaced." Good to know about the other parts. I will make sure to ask about those. I have it in writing that the RMS was replaced. it's not on this invoice for whatever reason, but I have been assured that the work has been done in an email, and on the phone. Both are recorded and saved. In the interest of privacy and consideration to the dealership, I am not going to show that correspondence at this time. "P.S. out of sheer curiosity, how did the indie divine that the internals of your engine were not serviced while replacing the water pump?" It had something to do with how the top end of the engine looked, nothing to do with the internals IIRC. I cannot remember the exact details of the conversation, so I have elected not to name anyone involved in this process, other than the fact that the work was performed by a Porsche dealership, by Porsche techs, and the work/parts are warrantied.

"IMO, all decent professional m96 rebuild should include a new water pump. So the indie is using the reverse logic I guess." That may very well be correct.

the way this thread came together got me thinking you were a troll. i apologize for the insults i would get everything regarding all work done on your engine in writing from the dealer instead of referring to phone conversations and what was said.

Very simple then and you should be covered as like you said, any work done by the delear should come with a 2yr warranty (I forgot was labor included?) Have them diagnose your oil leak and see what they recommend. If the oil leak is right at where the trans joins the engine, they will have to remove the trans and check the RMS and IMS amd they will have to cover both since they had replaced both. Sorry but what's the complain again?

"Good luck. Hopefully it's a loose oil drain plug, and you and your C4S can resume your love affair." Thank you, sir. I hope this is the case as well. Thank you for your help.

Labor is included, yes. My complaint stemmed from an earlier conversation with a person that did not know what he was talking about, and told me my RMS wasn't replaced. However, I have confirmed it has been replaced, and the dealership should be standing behind this.

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Cool. Let us know how it goes.

I'll do that. Thank you for your help.

You really need to check your engine serial number. You do know that only remanufactured engines with the. "AT" designation from Porsche is covered by the 2yr warranty, right? If the dealership used other rebuilding channels then all bets are off. Also realize that long blocks from Porsche has been NLA for some time now. So it's possible other than the short block, that they could've reused various parts. Rebuild these days MUST be accompanied by paperwork with a full itemized listing unfortuately for it to mean anything. Good Luck.

"the way this thread came together got me thinking you were a troll. i apologize for the insults i would get everything regarding all work done on your engine in writing from the dealer instead of referring to phone conversations and what was said." I can understand your concerns, and accept your apology. Thank you. I will absolutely heed this advice in the future, and I appreciate you giving it. Thank you

Hey hydro quick tip, click those quotes down there when you want to quote someone's thread, it's easier to do and easier for us to read. Hope your story has a happy ending!

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good knowing another C4S owner - long story but i've owned 3 and loved every one. many mechanically inclined members here to help you out and guide you. i would go to the dealership and insist you get all the necessary paperwork including all parts they used/labor/etc to document what was done to your car - it will come in handy when you sell it. and get clear just exactly what they will cover regarding warranty issues so there are no misunderstandings going forward.

Just a point of information. It took 2 RMS installs to get my 2003 dry. Total of 3 RMS. Original + two replacements. Both warranted by the indy that did the replacement.

So to summarize this thread: Grrrrr I'm super angry Why? Not sure yet, here's some blurry photos Don't get it I'm ANGRY got that, why again? Warranty!!!! You sure? Yup, phone call But..... Grrrrrr

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I gave up after the 3rd attempt by a dealer. I'm ok putting a maxipad on the floor for occasional minor menstrual cycles. Looking at the invoices, looks like it was a repair as Ahsai pointed out, hardly a "complete rebuild" as you've been led to believe. I believe the dealership will only warranty on the parts they replaced only and by their dime. This is different than a factory backed warranty for rebuilt engines from Porsche. You may have to pull teeth for any additional warranty work if this is the case, as dealerships will try to weasel out of certain things if their money is involved. With only short blocks available now, it begs the question whether short blocks also have the "AT" designation if it is used in a rebuild by a dealer.

Do try to relax and chill until you have the problem diagnosed, if (hopefully) it is something very simple you will have stressed yourself out for nothing, and that's not a good way to live life. That being said, it sounds like the "repair" job to your cars IMS issue was quite unconventional compared to normal Porsche Dealer practice, and I would suggest getting a thorough report from said dealer with respect to exactly what was done, parts replaced, parts reused, etc Good luck

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You left out "No bromance with salesman. GRR!"

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This is not a remanned engine. The original engine was resleeved. It is the same engine that came with the car.

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I have a stack of paperwork probably a quarter inch thick, but what I posted is all I have from the rebuild. Believe me, I am just as puzzled about this as you. If I didn't have it in writing and recording that the RMS had been replaced, I likely wouldn't believe it, nor would I even believe the engine itself had been rebuilt rather than a new engine simply being dropped in. As I understand it, the cylinder walls are very thin in these engines, and aren't very conducive to rebuilds. Again, I could be wrong, but this is simply what I've been told. I'm no expert. So if my RMS is what is leaking, I've gathered it's not a huge deal. Some engine oil comes out, but as long as I keep it topped off I should be good, right? I check the level every morning, and add oil as needed. Will this be ok for now? Thanks a lot for your help. I've owned a lot faster cars in my lifetime, but this is by far the most fun. Love my 4s. Really just a 2s now, since I have the differential out for a rebuild.

now that you have "unearthed" new/additional info about the work done to your car, what exactly do you want the dealer to do for you? Fix the leaking RMS...a full 15 months later under warranty...that you do not have in writing but only via VERBAL from a friend/service manager? Not being a smart aleck, seriously want to clarify

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I have a person from a dealership that worked on my car who has given me confirmation in writing on an official Porsche letterhead that the RMS/IMS are warrantied for two years. So yes, I fully expect them to honor the warranty that they provided with the work that was done on the car. I do not understand why this is so controversial.

if all you posted was everything you just said in post #64 of this thread, I have a suspicion the responses you got in the previous 5 pages would have been drastically different. have a great day and best of luck.

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I realized it after reading further posts but are you sure your engine was resleeved? Based on the two scanned paperwork, I see nothing of resleeving. I only see a cylinder head "sleeve" as a line item for parts. Also I find it interesting that notes indicate base timing was in spec on both banks, yet they assume and replace the IMS because they found debris in the oil pan? I wonder if there was anything else wrong that they overlooked or didn't replace. I'm sure their primary motive was to getting it repaired for the bare minimum just to get it running and sell. No dealer is going to go above and beyond to do a good job in these situations.

Wow. You might not know it but you come across as a bit dramatic. 13 year old cars are going to need repairs. And when it's a Porsche, we call that a first world problem. The dealer will be able to reprint the service records of everything they did to the engine. I would request that if I were you. Your current receipt showing that they only "cleaned" the engine after an IMS failure will make the car much less valuable when you go to sell it. A dealer documented rebuild showing all of the parts they replaced will make it more valuable. Good luck.

There was a guy on the 996 turbo face book page that posted a picture of the oil pressure gauge and asked what 1-5 meant. Why do people act so naive about a high performance car?

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Ya know, I don't disagree with you. I'm going to get all the stuff they did down in writing.

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I would highly recommend you ask them to address this asap and before the warranty expires. As I explained before, the leak could be either the RMS or IMSB or both and there's no way to tell without removing the tranny. If it's imsb, it could be an early sign of failure and you definitely don't want to take that chance. Also now they know your engine is leaking and if you leave it like that and something goes wrong later, that would give them more reasons to deny warranty.

What? No one has suggested that he complain to Jake?

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Jake...from State Farm? who wears khakis?

My favorite line from an employee of a dealership is when someone there claims to " would have purchased the car myself".

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The reason being he knows this needs to be resolved with the actual parties involved, not forum members.

Hate I missed all the action yesterday in this thread, but I'm catching up now. Hydro, I like your video (minus the last part). That caught me off guard, but if you knew these guys on the 996 forum you'd understand why they tend to act suspicious at times. Dealing with the "Texas - KK" for so many years has caused them to be on guard when someone comes on the forum to complain about being screwed one way or the other especially when it's related to a DIY RMS/IMS replacement or when someone is try to repair a 996, screws the car up major, then passes it on to some poor fool that eventually shows back up on Rennlist to shout being robbed. Anyway, it seems to me, you know what you need to do. That is, take it up with the Porsche dealership that warrantied the repair. If they gave you 2 years, then hold them accountable for that. I must admit, this is the first time I've seen a Porsche dealership install a LN IMSB. Not that LN is bad, but most of the Porsche service centers (including mine in Atlanta) refuse to install non-OEM parts on the Porsches. When I saw that on the invoice, I almost fell out of my chair. I see you're living in Colorado. Did you purchase the car in Colorado? Sneaky Pete was right, your VIN is associated with a C4S for sale at Porsche of Huntington, NY. And so, if a tow truck shows up in your drive way in the next few days, then you'll know that it got sold. hahahaha Seriously, good luck with the repair and hopefully all will work out.

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That's just crazy talk.

Makes zero sense.

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Ummm... I think it was a joke. But if it wasn't your point would be valid. Now then, if you ever get in a bind just sing the line below and see what happens. Your mind will be blown.... But it only works if you are truly in a bind.... But you can still practice singing it when nobody's around. "Like a Porsche guru Jake Raby's there."

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That's just crazy talk.

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Did you just go full-t@rd? I think maybe you did. Every time someone calls OP "hydro," I can't help but think of the amazing plans of this gentleman from "Waiting..." Now...who's going to try to whip out The Goat?

I think maybe hydro needs to add some new members to his stable.

how many miles on your C4S? was clutch changed when the engine was put back together? when/if you need to change our RMS, you may want to consider replacing clutch if it hasn't been done. saves the labor cost doing it at the same time as RMS

alpine003: "I gave up after the 3rd attempt by a dealer. I'm ok putting a maxipad on the floor for occasional minor menstrual cycles. Looking at the invoices, looks like it was a repair as Ahsai pointed out, hardly a "complete rebuild" as you've been led to believe." hahaha i just saw this - reminds me of the diaper(diesel fuel mats) i put between the engine and engine pan in my 1990 964 that leaked like a river. the temp fix worked for 2 years until sold.

Cuda got it as a joke, but I guess the rest of you need emoticons to understand...so please insert this one to the end of my previous post. DTMiller is being his typical @##hole self.

We are all still back here this week - https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ucks-pics.html Nothing like the shellacking we gave him. Well, and he deserved it....

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I don't get it. Oh, wait. I don't get it.

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I don't get it.

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Thanks, man. I got an appt. set up today for friday of next week. Will let you all know what goes down.

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Just turned over 44500 today. Got an appt. set up for Friday. Talked to the guys at the shop when I took it in today to have it put on a lift, and it looks to be a warranty issue for sure. Thankfully no worries. The thing that got me so angry was a new guy that had just started there saying the parts hadn't been replaced that had. I confirmed with the normal service guy and the manager that IMS/RMS had been repaired, and the job is warrantied for two years. I'm not sure about the clutch being engaged, since the dealer did all the work.

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Most of this crowd is pretty dense. Emoticons are not enough. If you say something funny you need to use something a bit more obvious, a bit more "pie in the face." Please feel free to save these and use them in future posts. A background laugh track is also very helpful. Laugh Track - YouTube

The definition of "rebuild" is very broad. Thats why we don't use it. Sounds like what you received, was a repair. We LOVE dealerships. Some more than others.