912 owner considering a 996, need advice

I am a '68 912 owner and love working on and driving my little air-cooled underdog on weekends. I am also a PCA member, love Porsches in general, and I am looking to upgrade my daily driver (2004 Toyota Matrix XRS) to something with more...well, everything. I am considering a first-generation, high-miles 996--not for investment, but as a dependable car I can put lots of miles on without loosing too much value. Am I crazy? I don't mind doing a bit of wrenching. I am considering a 2000 listed locally on Craigslist: http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5818274053.html The pros: - Owner claims clutch and ceramic IMS bearing installed less than 2 years/20K miles ago - Car drives great, almost everything seems to work - Silver Car with Black interior (which I love) looks nice - Owner claims it was serviced by a reputable local mechanic (Brewster Industries in San Clemente, CA) The cons: - Turbo wheels on the car--they are slightly too wide in the back and have been plasti-diped black - The car has an unknown "adjustable" suspension - It is missing spare tire/jack ($250 on craigslist) - Odometer is pixelated ($250 fix once parts are available) - Small dent/scrape on the passenger side - Front bumper has been re-sprayed - Owner has no documentation of repairs (he suggests taking to the local mechanic to provide details and records, PPI) - Local mechanic's (Brewster Industries http://brewsterporsche.com/ , who gets great praise elsewhere on Rennlist) phone appears to be disconnected. Am I crazy to consider this car? What price is too much? Need to determine if I should even do a PPI. Any advice is appreciated.

Walk, then do you diligence on another one. Lots of good cars out there.

I dont know if its any worse than any other 2000 out there. I would get a carfax, call the regular mechanic, and then if all thats good take it to a porsche dealer and get a complete cpo inspection and get the origional service record

If you cannot get hold of the mechanic to verify I would walk, who does not keep the receipts for work done on their car, especially someone claiming its meticulously maintained. Budget for an engine replacement, its going to happen sooner rather than later at that mileage. Rollers are supposedly worth around $6500 US. Best expression I came across (and I speak from experience) is to treat a 996 like an engine with a disposable wrapper. Don't get me wrong, I really like my disposable wrapper, just pi**ed I need an engine rebuild!

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^^^ This Sounds suspicious to me. I'd say keep looking.

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love it

I would not even consider this car unless I could get ahold of the mechanic who did the work, get a PPI from his mechanic or my own (45 minutes away), or if he did not lower the price--significantly. But if a "roller" is worth $6000, and he lowered the price to around mid-blue book/Edmunds is around $9K-$11, it might be a good gamble for a car I could live with, and leave some budget for improvements. I have been looking for a while, and the only cars I am interested in seem to be pricy compared to risk, are from dealers who know nothing about the history, or are 100's of miles away. My 912 once scared the heck out of me, but now I realize that the car, like my Toyota, is pretty much bullet proof--not sure if 996s, as much as I like the cars (yes), are as robust or forgiving.

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Some of them are bulletproof. But there is some luck of the draw involved.

Anyone who claims all those repairs and upgrades but can provide the documentation for them is either a fool or a liar. Walk and way and find a car with a documented history. Or pay much less. I'd consider that car for $11k if a car fax and auto check showed no accident, and a PPI could back up the car's stated condidtion.

Keep your receipts! Let it be a lesson to the guy selling (and everybody else) that if you're going to claim lots of work/money spent - have the paperwork to back it up. If he takes a hit on the final selling price because of it then he deserves it.

Thanks all, for the advice. I did get a Carfax and it comes up clean. Online pricing tools don't consider whether IMS work was done on a car, so it is a tough call. I think I would pay fair blue book for the car (based on miles/condition) if it passes a PPI with no deal breakers--I might pay a little more if he can produce proof of the recent clutch and premium bearing work. It is a risk, but a new Porsche would depreciate more in a month than what I might pay for this one. Trying to keep things in perspective.

My '99 (5/98 build, dual row) now has 127k on it. I looked at and drove a bunch before I bought one. Had an SC and a 993 previously. I bought it from a "car guy" who had owned it for 7 years and had other high end cars in a nice garage at an upscale home. Not a lot of paperwork, no ppi, but I felt good about it and bought it. 2 years later, a couple thousand dollars of maintenance stuff and tires, I love the car and wouldn't sell it for what that guy's asking in the ad you posted. I'm not sweating the market, these are just used cars- and for me, the best Porsche value today. I'd say look at as many as you can before buying anything, you'll know it when you see it.

It's a great year and model but the price is a little high for the mileage. FYI, I've seen roller coupes bring ~$8000 fairly consistently. If you plan for cost of ownership to be around $5k/year for the next 5 years you will be more than covered and have an amazing driving experience. That will allow for a rebuild somewhere along the way and the car will still be worth what you paid for it.

So if I budget $5K/year for maintenance, don't actually do any of it, then sell as a roller in 18 months for $8K, I might actually come out ahead? All joking aside, this is all very good advice. The economics of actually DRIVING a Porsche never seem to make sense--too many intangibles. (And why is this car $31/mo cheaper to insure than a Corolla?) I hate to keep the air-cooled classic in the garage, but subjecting it to daily abuse doesn't make sense either. A $10K 996 in decent shape, with a few grand in improvements, just might be a perfect car to put some miles on--but not if it leaves me stranded, or if a single failure instantly costs more than the car is worth. Would an $18K car with half the miles and no IMS retrofit be much better?

That 18K car with 70k miles is exactly what I purchased 2 years ago. Had the IMSB , clutch, and water pump done within days of ownership . My 02 has been dependable and an absolute blast to drive. As a side note, car had pristine paint when I purchased it unlike the car in the CL ad.

You could also consider a certain mid-engined Porsche of the same generation. You will get all the same modern amenities and a performance boost (compared to your 912), and an even lower buy-in price (depending on miles, condition, etc).

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All depends on what you want, Mr. MLB Pitcher with a gnarly beard. Entering the Carrera fray for me was an exercise in finding what I believed to be a good candidate to run well for several years. 2003 C2 california car with 71k miles and a well documented service book in the glove box = $21k. It's not my main car in the sense that I have a reliable Honda that is good in winter and bad weather. I do drive it every damn day the weather allows though! Taking it down to Vegas for a 1,000 mile trip in mid-November. But I have no illusions about it being a Honda. It can and may fail without much warning, and that's ok. Price I pay for driving my dream car . I'm in the process of spending several years to refresh, modify and shore up my own car, but that's not really relevant to your journey. If you want a 996 that fits the age old 'bulletproof' label, you'll need to, imo, shop for a cheap one with a compromised engine and rebuild it properly. Total cost around $30k and you'll have a ~300whp Carrera that, by the accounts I've read, can approach the durability cars like the 3.2L G50s are known for. Only it will do circles around a $30k aircooled car, be more comfortable, push 180mph under the right circumstances, etc. The more I drive my Carrera and enjoy its balance, performance and overall personality, the more I question both my sanity and that of the crowds that shun what is an incredible car. Last weekend I had some fun drives with new, modified Golf Rs, Aston Martin V8s, etc. Looking around I couldn't find a single car that had as good a mix of performance, cost, aesthetics, and chuckability in very tight corners. Several guys came up to me after certain sections of road noting how much fun it was to watch the 996 do what the 911 was meant to do - dart into turns, scream out of them without hesitation (rear weight bias ), brake forcefully while losing zero composure, etc. It's just one helluva fun car to take out because it's not too pretty to brush against a bush like the Lambos and Astons. It's not too ugly that you have to overlook its profile like the STis, Golfs and other hatchback franken-'sports' cars.

I have looked at and driven five 996s, ranging from high miles to low, and from years 1999 to 2003. Some had poor interiors, some had been abused on the inside, and some may have just had a bad encounter with a stray shopping cart. I even drove a 2007 997 with a sport chrono package and factory aero kit--what a nice car. With the exception of one car (the 2003 that barely started, had an impression of the battery in the hood, and what I only hope were mashed potato stains in the center console) all drove really, really well--maybe deceptively so. For now, my wife gets the big, safe, modern car. I'm looking for something more interesting. But until I get my royalty check for Pet Sounds ( ) my Carrera GT will have to wait. I am going to try and hunt for a bargain.

Have any 912 pics we can drool over?

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beautiful 912!

Good looking 912.

This 912 is definitely not ready for the concourse: painted headlight rings, Talbot mirrors on the fenders, McAfee/Gurney aluminum wheels--all period, but definitely not original. It was painted a slightly darker shade than its original Irish green--enthusiasts can tell. The intermittently working odometer shows 36K miles, not sure if it is 136K, 236K, 336K... When I brought it back to life I wanted to fix these things right away, but now I see that they make the car unique. Others do a such fantastic job in restoring these cars. I am not going to sell anytime soon, but I do love to tinker and drive and I am not too concerned with resale. Next projects are to lower the car a bit and get some support back in the original seats. Sorry, I digress...I am looking for a 996.

That's fun to listen to, nice 912. Love the mirrors on the fenders.

Hey neighbor, nice car! Whereabouts are you, I'm in Belmont Shore. You have to take the cost of maintenance into account. If you're looking to spend as little as possible, I think you're looking for a 99 with original engine and good service records, no IMSB work done. Has the original dual row IMSB, just leave it alone and drive it. Small chance the IMSB fails. I'd maximize my chances by having the PPI check for metal in the oil and filter. Do a leakdown to mitigate chances of cyclinder scoring. Make sure you get a cold start on the car, listen rattling in the engine or smoke. Once you get into changing the IMSB, now your looking at while you're in there...$$$$. This will likely not add value to the car. Make sure you take into account consumables when looking into car and negotiate accordingly (brakes, tires, clutch...etc). Water pump and AOS tends to need replacing on these cars, bonus if they've been done recently. You will need to wrench to address minor things regularly, but it sounds like you're ok with it.

I bought a 99 cab, with zero documentation, orginal ims, and do exactly zero maintance a year except one oil change. I paid market price at the time, and so far it's great. In fact I think most people are lying about their extensive "well documented" service histories.

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I'm in the "Long Beach Ranchos" area, Studebaker and Spring--go down to Belmont shore all the time. I generally take very good care of my own cars, but honestly don't have ALL service records since, once out of warranty, I will often do simple things myself--sometimes I don't have time or expertise so I seek various independent specialist or shops. I guess I expect other owners to be about the same. I think this is the danger with the 996--so many like me are starting to get them as a "first Porsche" and don't do consistent maintenance, or do it themselves at less than Porsche spec--may have amplified perceived problems with them. It is just a used car after all, and will cost time and money to repair and maintain. I know I could get a great Boxter for less than the same year 911, that's actually what started me on this journey--but a 911 just appeals to me so much--and has the blessing of my wife, which helps.

Cool, the Rancho area is nice, we were looking into that area as well. Looking at my prior response, it wasn't very clear. If you need any kind of serious work done on the car, it gets expensive very fast with these cars. Comparing that to $15K car...the question of retaining value is kind of moot. You can mitigate that by buying arguably the best build year of the lot - 1999 model year. Dual row IMSB with low failure rates and less cost cutting. Probably the best chance at just buying, driving, and selling unscathed. I hear you about older cars and maintenance records. I think that makes the PPI more important, but to each his own. But most people don't do their own maintenance in LA. In LA...of all my friends, colleagues, and family (that drive cars only) - I'm the only one that wrenches. And if someone is getting serviced at decent shop, that shop is going to keep records. EDIT: My car is freshly serviced from Callas Rennsport, let me know if you want a test drive...could be a useful baseline for you.

+1 for service records. I bought a "cheap" 1998 built 996 (equivalent value of approx 13.5kusd), looked good, ran great, needed a bit of easy mechnical work (front brakes, tyres and lights sorting out). Less than 1000kms later I'm looking at an engine rebuild. I really wish I had a PPI done and just maybe I would not be in this position. My cheap car is probably going to end up costing me in the region of $27K at which point I would be looking at much better cars with history etc. Love the 912 by the way. I have a thing for green cars (including my 996).

Mrjonger, It looks like Callas Rensport would have been convenient when I drove to El Segundo every day--still need to find a local Porsche specialist, maybe they would work. Often times my mechanic needs to be near where I work rather than where I live. I should probably come check out your car. So, in general, is a '99 with unchanged dual-row bearing better than a 2000-01 that has had the bearing changed (ceramic LN)? I have been assuming immediate bearing/clutch work regardless unless it has been recently done. Part of the calculus.

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If you're asking for opinions, mine is a most definite Yes.

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Nice 912! And congrats on your decision to get a 996! I bought a 2000 cab about 6 months ago with 93k on the odo. In doing my research I found out the changeover from dual to single row IMSB happened sometime mid-2000. So, not knowing which bearing I had, I elected to do the swap right away. My car still had original clutch and it pulled strong with no slippage. Frankly, the car ran so good I was tempted to reconsider... but my research had made me a bit paranoid. Had I gotten a '99 with the same driving characteristics I probably would have just installed an IMS Guardian. But when we got between the engine and transmission it turned out the clutch was down to the rivets on the pressure plate side. Had I driven the car much further on that clutch the flywheel would have gotten scarred and needed replacing as well. I did not get any service history with the car so the clutch was going to get done regardless. At the end of the day, saving the flywheel more than justified the cost of the Vertex IMSB that went in. And having done the full gamut of swapping the 996 "alphabet" of preventative maintenance part swapping, I now drive the car with considerably more peace of mind and I feel like the old girl is well poised to have a good shot at going another 93k. I could have paid a premium for one with service history, but elected to start fresh with a lower cost car that passed engine PPI and excellent body and paint work. With the work performed since purchase and the receipts for parts I've installed on my own I've started reestablishing service history on my own. No regrets, I'd do it all again and I know my car that much better as a result. Good luck in your search!

These cars can be hit or miss, just know what signs to look for that could tell you if someone is trying to dump a problem engine. There are many people out there with high-mileage original cars.

So, following up, I came across a silver 1999 that is listed for $16,950 at an out-of-town dealer. I would like to do a PPI, and the seller will let it go 10 miles to a mechanic--a Porsche dealer is in the area. Before I do that, I have some concerns: - The Carfax says it was originally purchased in April of 1998, not sure if this is relevant (build quality?), or possible. - Being from a dealer, the car was traded in and sold at auction so it has no hard-copy service history. - The car has low miles, only 70K, less than 4K/year--I have heard this could be bad. - The carfax records show the car has mainly been serviced in Santa Monica/Beverly Hills/Culver City - At 70K car is probably due for a clutch and who knows what else, and probably has the original IMS bearing--I am sure no one has done this for me. - The car is bone-stock with 17" turbo twist wheels, and well-worn Michelin Pilot Sport tires. I think these are not cheap rubber though and might indicate prior care. - Cosmetically, the car looks pretty good for a 18+ year-old--I'd say top 20% at least. - The car was purchased at auction a year ago, and only put into stock 5 months ago--not sure why, but it wasn't put out immediately, or hasn't sold--is there something wrong? Pricing guides are not helping me since there are so many variables, but I think if the seller dropped his price a bit, and the PPI revealed no MAJOR issues, it might be a good deal.

Early build date is good. 70k miles is no prob to me. Doubt it will need a clutch, unless it was driven by a goofball SoCal jerkwad(likely I guess). As for not being put out for sale right away, who knows? I ran across a dealer that bought one and drove it around for a few months before selling. Could be pretty common. Price is good depending on condition. For PPI - have the oil drained into a white cloth and look for metal particles. Then, remove the oil filter, and inspect the pleats under a very bright light looking for metal particles. If it passes this test FIRST, then continue on with the rest of the PPI as you see fit. Silver is not my color, but if that floats your boat - do it and don't look back. The option sticker is on the frunk lid. Post up the codes and we'll figure it out.

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Nice! Sounds really promising... I agree with Doc's advice. And to add to his comments, production of MY '99 cars actually started in late '97. According to THE Porsche 996 engine guru, the cars made '98 were made prior to a factory fire that caused Porsche to hurriedly re-work engines that had previously failed quality control in order to keep up with production. Cars that were made after that fire are MUCH more likely to have an IMSB issue. I would look at that build date as a plus. Put a magnetic drain plug on the car, or the IMS Guardian and forget about replacing the bearing. (assuming PPI is clean) Good luck with the PPI!

I have attached an options sticker. The car drives nice and solid, but it is pretty bare bones which is maybe ok for me. There are a few cosmetic problems on the interior: The vanity mirrors won't stay open, the right rear seat latch is missing a plastic cap, some of the AC vent fins in the dash don't move with the wheel, and the radio has lost it's code so I could not check it--they said a dealer would have the code. On the exterior, it is missing the cap to the tow hitch on the front bumper, there is some minor rash on some of the 17" wheels, there are some minor scratches on the rear deck lid, and some sort of solvent has made a spot on the rear spoiler. They have dropped the price to $14,500--still not sure this the best price for a 18 year-old car with 70K miles. But it is incredibly fun to drive. I think I am going to shop around for PPI in the Riverside, CA area--I really want to know what I am dealing with, but need to make sure the price is in the ballpark.

Hey sorry, didn't see that you responded. I'm free this weekend if you want to check out the car. PM me if you're interested. EBAY shows results of past listings. Doing a 1 minute look, it doesn't seem to be a bad price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...p2045573.m1684 Just be sure the options are comparable. Doc - My clutch and flywheel needed replacement when I bought the car...19K miles...socal jerkwad owned - prior and current.

PM sent.

Just an update: it is a long story, but I got halfway through a PPI and called it off right away--too much wrong. Made me realize an earlier seller had a much better car. I contacted him and he was able to get all his maintenance documents, including the original window sticker, and I met with his mechanic for an hours-long PPI/interrogation. Felt good about the purchase, wrote a check, and now I am the new owner of an Arctic Silver 2000 996.

Congrats on the purchase. I think 996's are great car to own. Of the many cars in my stable, it is one of my favorite for the reason that it is like a canvas for me. Since it is not a collector car, you can do all sorts of modifications and not worry about what you will do with the value. I have modified just about everything in the car except the engine, which is possibly the next step. I recently had the whole car refreshed and repainted. And the best part is id doesn't have all of the computer control and I get to do my own shifting. If you ever want some ideas, just PM me. I have included some pics after the repaint and with the new MK11 bumper. MkII bumper and tinted tail lights. All new paint, lowered and de-ambered litronic headlights with center radiator. Looks nice with my lambo BTW...I have a 912 as well that I am trying to figure out what to do with....I must say, I love what you did to yours....gives me some ideas.

lowpue....love the yellow car!! brwilson....congrats, looks like a nice find. deleted for new thread

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Looks great! That's the stance my car needs... Seems to have some mods- anything beyond suspension and lights?

congrats on the "new" P-car. P.S. Pipes look like they're hanging low....check your engine mounts

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Good points. This sounds like a good topic for a new thread altogether... why don't you start a new one with an appropriate title (will get much more appropriate responses that way) rather than divert this thread in another direction... just a suggestion. To the OP - Congrats on the purchase! Nice looking car!

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agreed and done; was just in the process of editing

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In response to vitaminC, yes the car has some mods: H&R coilover suspension, a ceramic L&N IMS bearing, and hollow-spoke Turbo-fitment (wide body) wheels. The Turbo wheels were plastidiped black which I removed with a lot of scrubbing this weekend--they look great now! The wheels are a bit aggressive on the rear (11" with 45mm offset) which makes the tires protrude about 1/2" or so, but for some reason it does not rub--yet. The problem is that I need new rear tires soon. I will need to decide if I want to buy tires for the 11" wheel and look for a better (aftermarket?) fitment, or go with Porsche standard wheel (10" width) with proper offset. I do love these Turbo wheels, so perhaps a "Turbo Look" in a 10"?--a topic for a different thread..

Edit: Added note, yes the lights were changed to LED in the rear, but the PO provided me with one of the originals, for what it is worth.

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Alrighty then! You win. Nicely bought. As for the tires, since you don't have option M030, your stock ride height should be ok with the 11" wheels. I would go with tires for those wheels and even if you go over a really bad bump and they touch once, hope it won't do damage. They don't look that close in the pics.

Congrats brwilson, what a nice setup. I like the wide wheels, they really fill out the hips of the C2. Happy driving-

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If you can find them, the 10" wide Turbo Twist 2 rears are pretty great. They only came as solid-spoke though, so that's worth considering. I'm running hollow spoke 8" on the front and 10" solid spoke in the rear. Pretty happy with the setup, they look great on 996.1.