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YOUR RESEARCHWhat eventually kills the M96 engine?
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Adjust valves by "feel" and it started back up
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No torque wrenches, no feeler gauges, just a couple of hand tools, I put everything back together on the side of the course, adjusted the valves by "feel" and it started back up and ran like nothing happened.
Leading evidence: 'Adjust valves by "feel" and it started back up' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust valves by "feel" and it started back up' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
repaired the engine, replaced all the damaged bits + new chains and new bearings/gaskets, car has run like a champ no issues for 20 000kms of rather hard driving so far
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
My car was idling like crap the other day so I figured since I just got it, it may have been awhile since anyone changed the oil out.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
My internals still require some ancillaries to be replaced periodically, and for that, I give the owner a specific timeline.
Replace those out all of those as preventative maintenance
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
and have changed those out all of those as preventative maintenance.
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Adjust valves by "feel" and it started back up
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No torque wrenches, no feeler gauges, just a couple of hand tools, I put everything back together on the side of the course, adjusted the valves by "feel" and it started back up and ran like nothing happened.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I enjoy every minute of my car, want to keep it running as long as possible and was curious about the other items I need to check/replace to keep driving it like a Porsche well into higher mileage.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
repaired the engine, replaced all the damaged bits + new chains and new bearings/gaskets, car has run like a champ no issues for 20 000kms of rather hard driving so far
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My car now has 115k miles on the clock and by all means appears to run strong, but the thought crossed my mind the other day: what eventually kills these cars?
What's going to be the downfall of my M96 and with regular preventative maintenance, what's the reason they can't go 500k miles?
(I'd like to leave IMS out of this as there are a couple of different schools that won't be solved via this thread).
They just fail. Regular maintenance or not, plenty of M96 motors died with no prior warnings or signs of trouble. Chain tensioner failed, rod bolt backed out, something got jammed into timing chain, oil pick-up screen got blocked, you started the car when it was cold and scored the cylinders, IMS bearing whatever.
M96 is no honda motor. There are freak cases of M96 motors lasting for very long miles (cue Macster), but there are a lot more stories of motors dying young and without any prior symptoms.
There are 28 Modes of Failure for the M96 at last count.
The best advice offered seems to be 3K miles oil changes with the best oil,full flow filter and regular checks of the w/p and magnetic sump plug.
Check in here for engines noise diagnosis as soon as they start.
That will probably eliminate more than 1/2 the issues.
Others may help you by adding more suggestions if e can avoid this becoming an oil thread.
Here is a rare M96 MOF that KrazyK (UNFAIR) has experienced, in his own words:
My car was idling like crap the other day so I figured since I just got it, it may have been awhile since anyone changed the oil out. I decided to go ahead and change the oil. I used DT40 synthetic oil like I was recommended on here. Anyways, I drain out the oil and noticed it was extremely dark and even after 10 minutes of draining, it was still coming out. I decided to go ahead and flush it to make sure all the bad stuff got out. I hooked up the hose, ran water through the engine, started it up and was waiting for the water to come out clean (The engine never went above idle so I was told this would be ok). Anyways, About 3 minutes into this, then engine starts shaking and shuts off. I figured it was all cleaned out so I plugged it up, added the oil and figured I was ready to go. WRONG! The car won't freaking start now. This car has been nothing but trouble for me, I think I am done with it.
There is no reason other than the engine is only as good as its weakest part.
Generally a major engine failure takes a car off the road at least off the road as far as the current owner is concerned. Obviously this can be a failed rod bolt, or a failed rod.
But a not to be overlooked contributor to an early demise of an older car is an accident. With a high miles older car a few thousand dollars in damages can be the final nail in the coffin.
It doesn't have to be a major internal engine failure either. An owner just gets lazy and lets a cooling system leak go. The engine suffers some localized overheating and in the case of the 996 a head cracks. The owner is faced with a pretty big expense to address this and decides to off load the car.
Or the owner ignores or tries to nurse a noisy water pump and the water pump sheds its impeller plastic into the engine. The owner is looking at a major expense and with some risk he is putting money down the drain as maybe the engine's cooling system is compromised and the engine will overheat even after a new water pump, et al, is installed.
Or the cabin gets full of water due to overflowing body water drains. Or a leaking door seal. (I've already had to replace both of these in my high miles Boxster.) The owner is looking at big bucks to address this water damage and that's the of the car.
Less common but still a possibility is the car gets put aside for a short while which turns into months. Now the car needs work to get back on the road. And maybe it has had mice at it, too. Kiss the car goodbye.
Or the owner ignores some noise that proves to be say a failed chain tensioner. While the chain remains intact the tensioner fills the engine with what looks like (and are in some ways) scary bits. His tech gives him the bad news which is probably engine R&R with a tear down and "rebuild". Big $$$$ are tossed about and that's the end of the car.
It takes some work to get big miles out of a car. One has to adapt early on (the earlier the better) a reasonable servicing schedule and follow it. One has to keep an eye/ear/nose tuned to the car for signs of leaks, or noises, or smells (caught my Turbo with a leaking water pump when I caught a whiff of anti-freeze and had the car right over to the dealer and the tech spotted the water pump leak sign).
Not be overlooked is taking care of the little things. It helps, some, when a big repair comes up to at least know the rest of the car is sound. All the systems work and work right.
Also, besides work it takes some good luck. My Boxster has been hit in the rear twice. Both times stopped at a stop light, too. First time caused over $5K damage: Just a front and rear bumper cover, a head light, and a tail light assembly and not including the $1500 I received for loss of the use of my car for 30 days.
Wouldn't have taken much more damage I think before the other driver's insurance company would have just called the car a total loss and written me a check.
My Boxster has over 305K miles on it. I'm going to continue to drive it as long as I can afford to keep it on the road. And compared to what a replacement car costs -- and I'm not talking about a new Boxster or even a nice used example -- I can afford to keep the Boxster on the road a long long time.
There are multiple failure modes that have been discussed ad Naseum in these forums. Read the flat six web site for example for details. A better question might be - what can I do to minimize chance of catastrophic failure ? Even that should be obvious
1. Frequent oil change - and we could go on for ever about the oil debate
2. Don't rev about 4K until oil is up to temp
3. Avoid excursions to rev limiter and beyond
4. Track time on unmodified car
5. Preventative maintenance on water pump and other items that could cause engine to overheat etc.
While I do think that many of the posts on this forum can scare any owner or prospective owner, it would be interesting to see if Porsche has done a FMEA(failure mode effect analysis) on this and other models. Actually quantifying data would be so much more useful than the fearmongering we all experience.
There are fixes &/or preventatives for some Modes of Failure.These are well documented.Ignore at your peril !
Of greater interest are the causes of failure for which there is no fix - yet.
For example, the seemingly perverse coolant circulation system which is the reverse of most engines- with the inevitable result. Until the Console is redesigned and different cooling passages cast(??how) it is a permanent problem.
The other (related) is unequal heating of the bores because of the thrust sides of the cylinder being reversed on bank 1 & 2 .This means both cooling and lubrication are sub-optimal.
Baz at Hartech has written at length on this general subject and he should be the source of your info ,not me.
See Sections 4 &5 here- lots to read & very well written:
http://www.hartech.org/engine-rebuilds
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1240967
I posted this thread about 5 hours too early...apparently what kills your car is an inattentive driver who changes lanes without looking and takes out your brand new Fister exhaust, rear quarter panel and bumper.
think you're right about the phone. young kid who admitted his fault to me and officer. Merged into left lane without looking and sideswiped two cars. Countered hard to the right and took me out. Enjoy your cars every day! No telling when something might happen.
Bummer! You just never know...
Here's hoping everything gets fixed up like new. Have a happy thanksgiving! The fact that we're driving Porsche's says we've got lots to give thanks for
You need to change your water pump yearly, oil with the most expensive oil you can find because of the shear temps, plugs every 2 yrs, the AOS monthly, The IMS yearly or monthly depending on how many miles you drive, after all mainy consider this a wear item now. You should really bore scope it and resleeve the cylinders around every two months to stop bore score and d chunk, don't forget new heads every 6 months to stop the intermix, that apparently happens in 4 stages, and the stages being identifiable and unique to their own.
The list goes on. There is big money in getting people to believe all this balonga. With that being said, the m96 is most likely one of the worst designed engine on the planet. I solve many of these problems by changing my oil, once a year.
with that said, I laugh....why would someone post these threads. If you own one, do diligence and drive and enjoy it or sell it for something that wont worry you.
What a cynical, negative insult to the OP and the rest of us who tried to have a constructive ,helpful discussion of how to avoid substantial financial loss.
It is unkind to mock those of us who use this Forum to help each other.
The only helpful comment(oil change) has already been made and with much more useful detail previously.
Jesus, what a thread.
Since we're already thinking along these lines...I'm 46 and healthy, but if I do die, in order of likelihood, it will be from heart disease, cancer (includes both ***- and non-*** cancer), unintentional injury (appears as "stupidity" in some actuary tables), suicide, or chronic liver disease. But if I can just hold on until 55, suicide drops all the way down to the #7 slot, which is nice.
If you're going to spend time thinking about your 996, why not spend time thinking about the cool things you've done in it?
All machines eventually wear out. OP appears to be familiar with the common reasons, but ultimately it only takes one part - a single bearing, a wrist pin, a circlip, a hot spot, a snapped bolt, a broken tooth or stripped gear, a failed link.
In the same way you will go insane Googling your health symptoms, you will go quite mad obsessing about how your engine will die. OP, I hope you get what you need from this thread - but I hope you choose to concentrate on what your 996's got left in it rather than worrying about whether it's on the way out.
That just sucks. I have had to learn to drive INCREDIBLY defensively, first in the 986 and now the 996. The combination of being small and hard to see at night (the 986 was seal grey; the 996 is black) results in people trying to occupy my space with their SUV at least once a week.
The 996 sits below the window level of a number of mid-size and larger SUV's; if the drivers aren't REALLY watching what they're doing, I have to pick up the slack. I would have wrecked this car in a year if I was 25 instead of 46 - I used to assume things about other drivers (like they were paying attention, not on the phone, etc.)...
^ By "the owner," do you mean "the owner who is following the maintenance schedule as published by Porsche?"
(No, I am not trolling you - but the contrast between what the book says you should do vs. what everyone and everything else says you should do is...marked. Fresh Mobil1 every 15,000 miles, a new oil filter every 30K miles. No scheduled maintenance for water pump, AOS, or other acronyms that shall not be named herein. Simply following the manual that came with the car flies in the face of - at least in the case of my '99 - 17 years of practical experience from you and other folks... )
No, I mean the person who ONLY listens to the owner's manual.... The guy who says "I did everything right, I have perfectly maintained the car".
But, he never changed the water pump, never changed the AOS, and only changed the oil half as often as he really should have.
Thats the guy who calls me a hundred times a year. With a failure.
I think we might be talking about the same guy. The guy who lives in ignorant bliss, unaware that Jack Baruth badmouthed the 996 as Porsche's "deadly sin," unaware that budgets were so tight that Lai had to fight to get a retractable spoiler, and quite possibly unaware that such a thing as a non-N-rated tire exists.
It HAS to suck to be that guy...The owner you see as someone who has neglected his 996 to nearly criminal levels had thought until that day he was an amazing, conscientious owner who could expect 200K miles from his car since he's followed the maintenance schedule to a T. They must feel poleaxed when they call to find out why it went kaput and only then learn that they have screwed the hyperbolic pooch. If there was a Kama Sutra for pooch-screwing, he would come to realize he had mastered every page, and the award for this accomplishment is a filter full of metal or a quarter-mile-long oil slick.
M3driver is our local troll. Just blow him off and move on. This is one of the few times I've even seen someone to bother replying to him.
And we all know why AWD is butt sore.
It doesn't, this comment was more meant to imply you have a reason to laugh. It also is an explanation for your comments on the other thread. At one time you had the attitude of spending the extra time to do it as right as possible. Now you are so burnt out that you can't imagine taking a measurement because it could mean that a bunch of other stuff is messed up also. And I don't blame you but I do think it's skewed your perspective.
As for M3, he is a detriment to this forum and adds almost no value. For someone that dislikes the 996 so much I can't for the life of me figure out why he owns one or even spends time on this forum. Personally I wish he'd go buy another M3 and go troll their forums.
my engine is done and it was assembled correctly with the right parts. we just didn't measure deck height, we figured LN and JE got it right.
that and we eyed it, and we were only 2 beers in at that point. gtg
lol
What are you talking about? His multi-state insurance wisdom alone makes him an invaluable participant.
Oh, wait, "invaluable" doesn't mean what I thought it meant.
yea, I jacked that one something fierce. I've lost count on how many times I was called out on that, but can't say I don't deserve it. And FYI I love my 996, i think it's a fantastic car. I just can't get over the problems the m96 power plant has. Hence I would never put a dime into fixing it, I'd go with a transplant
Wow, I go away for a day and come back to see I've kicked the hornets next. That certainly wasn't the intention of my thread and this wasn't the spirit of the conversation I was hoping for.
I'm well aware of the IMS failures, AOS, water pump, etc.. and have changed those out all of those as preventative maintenance. I enjoy every minute of my car, want to keep it running as long as possible and was curious about the other items I need to check/replace to keep driving it like a Porsche well into higher mileage. Thank you for the link to the Flat6 page - chain tensioner guides and relining the cylinders are things I didn't know about.
Hope to continue to learn about these cars and engines from many of you. Happy Thanksgiving to you all.
Andrew
p.s. Called insurance company of driver who hit me and it appears their policy isn't valid as they skipped a payment. They established another policy at some point, but it seems to be post-accident. Go out and be thankful for your cars. 😠
In about 1 out of every 20 of your posts, such as this one, you come across as a pretty decent guy. It really makes the rest of your posts quite perplexing.
As for the m96, for a little more than the LS1 swap, you can get it rebuilt with all inherent deficiencies removed.
I have poor social skills, I'm working on it. The LS is a set it and forget it motor. and I really can't stand GM products, but man did they nail it with the LS platform
Those were hilarious threads (even if they were infuriating at the time), glad to see you've accepted you lot around here and are still hanging around. We'll let you live it down in a few years
For what is worth, I started your original post thinking (oh ****, not again), but then it was obviously humor and I got a good laugh. Sometimes we are too uptight for our own good around here. Slakker will get over it when his 8th 996 shows up and you'll have to just forgive Schnell (the serious one, not the funny one) as he only understands serious technical replies and sarcasm and humor are incomprehensible to him
Just for discussion sake...even with a "real rebuilt"(nickies, proper IMS, proper rod bolts, new chains and adjusters, and all the other goodies) m96 aren't you still subject to other inherent issues with these engines...water pump weakness, AOS weaknesses, to mention a few. I am not familiar with the LS engine but guess there are fewer things to sweat about. I'm torn between the RND engine replacement and an LS swap however have not really researched the last option if/when I need options. I would go with Jake but really wouldn't use half of what he would do for the engine and waiting a year would also be a drawback. Mine is starting the scoring symptoms although not verified as of yet.
You can talk it through with Jake but with his rebuild and recommended maintenance, your chance of failure becomes very very small.
There is no doubt that the LS1 is a great engine. I haven't heard of anyone getting all of the kinks worked out though. I think there are still a few bugs that you have to live with.
For me, the flat 6 is a big part of the experience. I like its sound, its feel and its power curve. I can't imagine dropping a chevy engine into the rear of my 996 and feeling good about it. But we all have to "hike our own hike."
M3, it takes a lot of character to own your issues. I respect the hell out of that. It's something this world could use a whole lot more of.
And gnat, thank you for the blessing of 8. Now that sounds like Nirvana to me.
When I build an engine the first 120K miles of scheduled service is exactly prescribed. This includes a water pump every 3 years, and an AOS every 40K miles, among other things. My internals still require some ancillaries to be replaced periodically, and for that, I give the owner a specific timeline.
As for scheduling goes, 3 months ago I pretty much put a hold on the schedule so we could get caught up, and reduce the wait times a bit. In that period I've only taken on a couple of jobs that we thought we could repair, but could not, and these ended up falling into the reconstruction timeline.
Having 36 purchasers in process at all times gets older for us, than the 1 year wait does for the owner. What it takes to keep up with this from admin, and logistics really sucks. Long story short, I am at 9.5 months right now for completion, and it can't get any faster than that, since the parts manufacturing, and machine work takes this amount of time. I hope to keep the list at 9.5 months for as long as possible.
Remember, if the car still runs and only has symptoms, I DO NOT need it for 9.5 months, or even a year (when the schedule is that far out). I ONLY need the car for the final 3.5 months of that 9 month period, because we start the engine the day the owner initiates the Proposal.
not really. I've pushed my fair share of LS corvettes into the paddock after arriving into pit lane billowing smoke. Another friend of mine lost a rod bearing in his LS powered RX7.
they blow up also. but at 700hp. lol
Slak/FSI: Appreciate your inputs. I really don't want a Frankinporsche(hope KCA doesn't read this!). Maybe I am still more susceptible to some of the "sky is falling" rhetoric on this forum than I should be after 2.5 years of ownership. I too love the flat six sound even with stock exhaust and can't help but smile when the variocam rush occurs. Perhaps I will give myself an early Christmas present by calling Jake...hhhmmm...3.8 does sound enticing...
Some friends and I have flogged 5-600hp Lsx's in ultra 4 buggy in the worst of conditions and they've taken it with a smile. We've also lost some too. However in general they will take that beating all day long and keep going. There are plenty of guys in the drag racing curcuit taking bone stock junk yard ls platforms, boosting them to the moon and they will last and entire season. Those guys are getting around 600hp out of those too. Being envolved in different arenas of motors sports for many, many years there are two motors that really stand out from my personal experience. The Ford 5.0(my personal favorite) and the GM ls platforms, those motors have proven time in and time out to be able to handle abuse to the extreme levels and survive. Yes they have their own problems but at the end of the day they are just flat out hard to kill.
If you go back to my impressive engine theatres, hands down the VW type 1 engine has taken the most abuse I have personal seen and kept on going. I lost the entire drivers side valance train during a race, with the engine spinning at race speeds. I stopped, pulled the push rods, and rockers out of the valuable cover, put it back together in the worst of conditions and the engine fired up and ran fine for the rest of the race.
Background on that engine. It was a tired 1600 dual port, in a 74 super beetle, that I built a full permiter frame, ifs front and rear suspension Baja bug that I ran in Off road endurance racing. The egine lost power and started knocking really bad. I thought lost it. I stopped, pulled the cover and found everything sitting in the cover. What had happened was the rocker cradle came loose and it spilled its guts. No torque wrenches, no feeler gauges, just a couple of hand tools, I put everything back together on the side of the course, adjusted the valves by "feel" and it started back up and ran like nothing happened. That engine ran for years and wouldn't die. In another race I lost the oil cooler, sent a James Bond smoke screen across the course, and lost most of my oil. I bypassed the cooler and the side of the track, and ran it low on oil for another 7 mile so before I could make it into a pit to top it off and again, it didn't care.
This has already been said, but - once you can laugh at yourself, you become less deserving of the abuse. Not totally exonerated, but mostly.
As for the LS swap - this is an awesome solution if you meet all of the IF's...
* IF it can be registered legally;
* IF it's done well (and not a hack job/"some guy's" first try;
* IF the result isn't frankensteined in any way.
I also think this is a swap that is suitable for people who know what the crap they're doing. I have kept my '96 Corvette (LT1) engine alive and well, and I'm moderately 996 DIY capable, so I think I could probably keep on top of any issues that cropped up with either the German car or the US engine.
People seem to pitch an LSx conversion as the perfect solution - but how many people do you know who have done an engine swap / rebuilt their engine / otherwise got in WAY too far over their heads and wound up with a complete piece of crap only the salvage yard could love?
I _wish_ this was a 100% viable solution...I wish there was a straightforward way to ensure it could be registered in Kalifornia, and I wish there was a complete conversion kit with 100% everything you need except the donor engine. If a _solid_ kit was available and I knew I could get it refereed by BAR and smogged successfully, I would go this route and sell my used M96 to fund the project. But the prospect of doing the swap and then running into a BAR referee who decides to be a d*ck and/or is clueless of the rules regarding engine swaps, and winding up with a permanent project car that I can't register, make me reluctant to even consider it.
5CHN3LL: If I would go with the LS deal, I would ship car to RH in Vegas as they do in-house conversions. I have not priced that part of the equation. As you know here in this fly-over state there is no smog testing, yet. I dunno the Chevy deal is enticing but I have many questions about ancillaries like power steering, air conditioner, and several other issues that would have to be answered by RH.
1- Assume nothing, and quantify everything when engine building.
2- LN didn't have your crankshaft or any other components when doing the block work. Compression height and deck trim are calculated factors, but they must be checked. That's where rule 1 above comes in.
3- Engine building is never to be a social event. Groups of people have no place in engine building, and neither does beer. Back when I sold parts I'd get emails from buyers saying "the local club is coming over this weekend and we are going to build the engine, so I need the parts by Friday. This made me cringe. Guess what I'd come into on Monday morning most of the time? Guess what builds almost always had complications? When engine building you must have a certain mindset, and that doesn't occur when trying to entertain.
Here we assemble engines in "cells" with no other humans entering the work areas. There's no radios, or other music distractions, one builder per cell. When I build an engine I do my work in the middle of a 50 acre field, where my personal shop is located. I lock the door, turn all phones on "do not disturb" and get lost for the day.
nothing. car is in my garage for the winter. drives great, have a potential buyer coming Friday to look at it.
edit: "done" as in assembly is complete.
Seems a shame to sell it after the amount of effort that was put into helping you fix it by others. Especially with all of the freebies you were given if I recall correctly.
lol. are you being serious?
I sent in my LNE single row bearing and IMSB shaft for inspection . LNE sent me new stuff as a surprise which was really awesome. now I'm selling the car. if I sold the car 20 years from now, should I still be cutting them a cheque and asking for my old parts back?
If you expect something in return it is not giving it is investing. The best way to avoid disappointment is to give without expectation, in fact it's the only way.
Sorry, but - no. I saw some of the clearances on the IMS shaft runout and was gobsmacked at how poor quality came out of the factory. Porous blocks, lousy oil return galleries, inefficient crankcase air scavenging, all lead to failures and that has NOTHING to do with 'maintenance'. That's why Jake has a 40 year(or whatever) backlog of engine work lined up. Not because we didn't change our oil every 6 months, etc.
Maintenance <> repair.
With all the issues and it seems you have been through these engines extensively why do you own one? Remember more cars are out there running with good maintenance records than out of commission.
my 3.4 996 engine was killed by a spun bearing, and therefore destroyed crank, two connecting rods, one piston and half a block
repaired the engine, replaced all the damaged bits + new chains and new bearings/gaskets, car has run like a champ no issues for 20 000kms of rather hard driving so far
will see how it goes further on.
at this point the car has 403000+ kms on the clock
I was in a taxi in New York once and got into a conversation with the driver who was also the owner. I asked him how many miles he had on his cab and he replied that was around 250,000. Considering a New York taxi is the worst abuse a car could get, he said he changes all fluids n the car every month. In my opinion, frequent oil changes are the best thing you could do to prolong engine life.
True that, but **** still happens, some worse than others and this car has some known issues compared to a Ford Crown Vic. But, that said, what would you rather drive?
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
