127 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
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YOUR RESEARCHWell it happened to me...
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even
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Read evidence and context
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Reported cause
The problem is even that is expensive compared to the cars monetary worth so most owners won't do it.
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Suggestion
I do not recall all of the guidelines now and the tech may not have told me all of them anyhow -- not to hide anything but due to time and the fact he was working on another car at the time -- but the ones I do remember were removing the oil scavenge pumps in the head looking for any metal debris and at other areas checking for any signs of metal debris on the clean side of the oil system.
Leading evidence: 'even' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'even' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check any signs of metal debris' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The good news is it is something that can be fixed or replaced, albeit with a financial cost.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
There's also been many successful owners that got their motors replaced either 100% or partially.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
My gut feeling is the car didn't last much longer after the shop replaced the IMS only to experience catastrophic failure from collateral damage as Jake Raby mentioned.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
My IMSB was replaced based on finding metal debris in the oil filter at my PPI.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check any signs of metal debris
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Suggestion
I do not recall all of the guidelines now and the tech may not have told me all of them anyhow -- not to hide anything but due to time and the fact he was working on another car at the time -- but the ones I do remember were removing the oil scavenge pumps in the head looking for any metal debris and at other areas checking for any signs of metal debris on the clean side of the oil system.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
I do not recall all of the guidelines now and the tech may not have told me all of them anyhow -- not to hide anything but due to time and the fact he was working on another car at the time -- but the ones I do remember were removing the oil scavenge pumps in the head looking for any metal debris and at other areas checking for any signs of metal debris on the clean side of the oil system.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
New IMS and IMSB, a couple of chain guides -- the plastic having been damaged some from the impact of a loose chain -- probably a new oil pump, and some sealant and gaskets and such.
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Suspected cause
"Smear" was probably the wrong word to use but a brand like Porsche should be ashamed of themselves if they are not willing to work with their customers for a failed low mileage car if the owner drove the car responsibly and not tracked it and if indeed it turns out to be the IXX.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
127 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 1 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Outcome without a verified action link
My first choice is obviously to try to get it fixed and back on the road, but I fear worst case scenario is I may have to get rid of it.
Monday afternoon, pulling out of a parking lot at my daughter's school, I'm lightly accelerating, RPMS about 3000, I hear a noise along with engine hesitation followed by the dreading marbles in a coffee can sound. Pull off at the first side street, turn off the car, look underneath and all the oil is pouring out of the engine.
Hasn't been diagnosed yet, but I've been hanging around here long enough to be pretty sure what it is. IMS.
So.... I have a couple questions for the people in the know. Anyone know what the going rate is for a re-manufactured engine from Porsche? Also, anyone have a guess what a 2004 C4S in otherwise excellent condition with a blown motor is worth?
My first choice is obviously to try to get it fixed and back on the road, but I fear worst case scenario is I may have to get rid of it. I'm just trying to go into this decision with the most information possible.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Tough luck Diesel 76. Others of late on Rennlist have purchased 'rebuilt' motors from a variety of sources other than from the 'Mother Country', for less $. Good luck with your diagnosis.
Thanks for the support. I'm just sick about this. I'm trying to do my research, gather info, and take things slow to avoid any knee-jerk reactions that I may regret later. I'll keep you all updated on the progress.
I gotta ask - did you ever replace the IMS bearing? Very low miles, single row = highest risk
Certainly not blaming you, but it would appear that your car falls into the highest risk category. I see that you joined Rennlist in 2007 but only have 16 posts. I'm going to guess that the IMS bearing issue might be a recent discovery for you.
I am very sorry that you're having to deal with this and for the financial loss if it indeed is an IMS bearing failure. Please keep us updated on the diagnosis. Again, very sorry.
This is truly sad and I'm sorry it happened to you. Especially this time of year. There are various solutions although somewhat expensive. When you think it appropriate maybe some details for others here so that we may learn something. Use, oil type, interval, symptoms, etc. Im not being a smartass, I truly am sorry that you have experienced one of the worse things that can go wrong with an M96. No one here thinks an IMSB failure is a joking matter or something to make fun of. I also have replacement engine sources when you are ready.
I know this isn't like a death in the family but maybe a little too soon for the "how could you be so stupid" comments. Im sure the guy feels bad enough. How about a "hey, I know where some good used engines are" comment instead.
well it may not have been an IMSB related failure - it hasn't been diagnosed yet.
I have no motor sources, but as a recent new 996 owner this really sucks - I can sure feel your pain....
Damn. That sucks.
I know there are places to read about what to do next, but I am happy to give you my opinion and tell you what I would do.
First - take it to a trusted mechanic and get a diagnosis.
Second - get a drink or two and wait for the diagnosis.
Third - figure out how much you like the car.
It may need a new motor but maybe there is a way that the car can spew oil and make funny noises and just need a minor repair.
After you get a diagnosis everyone here will be happy to chime in about what to do if you need a new or rebuilt motor. Me included.
I have owned the car since 2007, it got driven on a regular basis (though usually for not great distances) from March/April through Nov/Dec every year. I garaged it when the snow started in the winter and did oil changes in the spring.
I guess you could say my car was a high risk one and I should have had the IMSB replaced, it was certainly something I thought about at times, but for one reason or another I never did and it came back to bite me, live and learn I suppose.
Sorry to hear. Very similar to my situation. I am in my second break-in oil. I wound up having LN bore mine out to 3.8 this past late summer (it's a 2003 C2), and I now have the Solution. My advice is:
1. Do not drive it. I know, that one is obvious.
2. Get it to a reputable Indy. If you can't find one locally, contact Jake Raby. I didn't use Jake because I have an excellent guy nearby; no other reason.
3. Don't assume that you will need a new engine. You may, but don't assume that. It will need to be taken apart, and the damage assessed. Do what needs to be done, along with the typical wear items that you will be in a position to do (i/e., clutch, AOS, etc.). With low mileage, you may not do too badly.
4. Feel free to message me with any specific questions. I am not an expert; only experienced in the process.
5. Try to overlook some of the passive-aggressive stuff you will see here. There seem to be two camps here. One, "it is such a wonderful car, it probably didn't actually even happen and, if it did, it is your fault". Two, "you mean you actually bought one of these???" What's weird is that some folks seem to drift from one camp to the other, and then back again...
Sorry for this miserable situation Diesel, but perhaps we should all wait for thorough diagnosis results before we collectively go apoplectic.
That would be the 2nd one in 2 wks for this group of addicts: Not good.
Sorry to hear this. Keep us posted. Since you're not in CA, it may be possible to go with a non-Porsche swap, should it turn out that the engine needs replacing. However, I don't know what the smog/air pollution laws are in your state, so some research is advisable before you start spending any money...
Diesel - It is a good thing that you are choosing to share this info with the forum because we can learn from it - it would be less hassle to just stay quiet about it. So, thank you for sharing your experience.
Without assigning any blame to Diesel, I think his routine of use for the car put him squarely in the high risk category. The "low mileage car that sits over the winter" seems to be a common trait in the IMSB failures detailed in this forum. I'm certainly not an expert, and maybe someone with more experience and knowledge than I can chime in here.
I know IMS is the first thing many like to jump to and the rattle can sound is definitely attributed to that specific failure, but I didn't think dumping oil on the ground was a symptom.
I thought all the damage was internal in that case?
Regardless, sorry to hear about any failure. Seems to have been a bad few weeks for 996 owners
Diesel,
So, you're in the DC Metro area? So am I. Are you familiar with dorkiphus.net? It is a fairly active forum (though certainly not as much traffic as Rennlist), that is frequented by Porschephiles in the DC area. Post on that site, and you'll get lots of good information on mechanics/shops in the DC area. Some places to consider: Intersport in Northern VA, AtSpeed Motors near Columbia, MD. Depends on where in the Metro DC area you are.
Sorry to hear about the problem, and I hope you find a good solution.
IMA in Chantilly, VA is probably another good one to talk to. Ivan drives 996s himself and seemed pretty well versed when I had him go over ours pretty good this summer.
Ahh. Thanks for the clarification, in all the threads I never seemed to pick up on that one.
Makes perfect sense that it would be a possibility, just didn't gather that it was common enough to say "oil on ground = imsb".
That is truly bad news.
I'd second the advice to get the engine diagnosed but leaking oil is almost certainly a sign the engine's toast. Whether it died from a failed IMSB, a rod bolt failing, or something else I don't see that it makes much difference at this point.
Rather than just send you on a search for more info I have cut and pasted a response I offered up to another owner who recently has his 996 engine go boom.
What to do now?
Right now nothing. Take some time to reflect on the situation.
My thoughts are the car is still a great car. If you haven't fallen out of love with it, think about getting it back on the road. Or not.
What options do you have open to you?
I like to lay them all out.
1) Factory replacement engine. You know the con: Expensive. (But price a factory replacement engine when you feel up to it just so you know). Pros: Drop in simple. Comes with some warranty. Car will be easy to move on when (if) the time comes. The car is not a Frankenstein.
2) Rebuild the existing engine. However, given the failure mode I'm going to go out on a limb and say the engine is probably not rebuildable. I'm not sure mixing cases with these engines is advisable, let alone possible. You can be facing some expense to tear the engine apart just to find it is not rebuildable.
However, you might want to consider consulting with a higher authority on this subject. Give Jake Raby a call and see what he has to say. I don't speak for him, obviously, but I have to offer be prepared for he may *not* be willing to discuss this over the phone. I could understand this position. He would have to make a very important decision based on just hearsay. If he says the engine's rebuildable and it proves to not be once it is in his shop then there's that to deal with. If he says it is not rebuildable and you find another shop who is willing to rebuild it, well that's the other side. But give JR a call and listen to what he has to say.
3) Salvage engine. There may not be any now but just wait. Cons: Getting a good engine. If the car shows up totaled from a front end collision the engine's probably good. Better if the car's equipped with a Tip. You want avoid a flood car (for obvious reasons), a recovered stolen car (for obvious reasons).
4) Frankenstein the car. Now maybe "Frankenstein" is painting this option a bit negatively unfairly. It is your car and your money and you have to make the choice that feels best to you. But a LS2 engine swap may be something to consider. I have not seem one up close and personal and I would have to in order to be able to better judge the quality of the job and ideally at least have a ride in one to judge the car's character. My opinion except for the number of cylinders and their layout this should look "factory". Any loose wiring, flopping hoses, just any signs of anything not bolted down, secured by proper straps, improperly routed, inexplicable CELs, vague references to overheating, or any other issues or troubles, keep looking.
5) Sell the car as is where is and move on. Give Oklahoma Foreign a call and talk to somewhere there about the circumstances and see what the offer is and how the transaction goes down. This might be financially a bit brutal but the break is clean and you can move on with your life. And while this might be brutal just have the wrong shop take on rebuilding the engine, or elect to install a V8 and pick the wrong shop. Those will be financially and emotionally brutal and then some. Remember, there is always another car.
Think about the above. Research what you can about the above. You want to learn enough about all your choices so when the time comes you make the best decision for you.
Best of luck.
Let me add that I expect the engine would not meet the core requirement so a factory rebuilt (or remanufactured) engine if there is a core charge and I think there is the charge would be quite high. For example: A few years ago for my 2002 2.7l Boxster an engine with a suitable core was around $16K. Without the core around $26K.
(The Boxster's engine was fine I was just curious.)
Even though I have the money for a $16K engine, even a $27K engine, I think I would explore an engine from a Porsche salvage business first.
Last but not least let me repeat: Best of luck.
I don't know if I would be more pissed...this happening just simply pulling out of a parking lot or going full throttle. I think it would kill me to blow a motor not trying to! Man I am sorry to hear about this. If it helps, I have now done 3 IMS bearings...all LN in 3 different cars and I still worry about the freaking IMS. I wish you the best for a speedy fix and as inexpensive as possible...
If you end up selling, I'd have some interest in the car if it's a manual. Sorry about the horrid circumstances. Sometimes all you can do is figure out how to turn a bad situation into a positive outcome...maybe buy something new/different, build, etc.
I'm know the pain you feel...my motor went on the track at 121k miles. Spun bearing for me. You will sort it out in time. Get the straight poop from the mechanic and don't listen to all the hypothesis. Best of luck to you.
I'm deeply sorry about your engine, now the final decision comes to you!!!!
Is it worth it to spend money to put it back on track or just pretend you did a lease and let it go.
There is a X51 3.6 motor for sale here for $14K. Hope your core can be salvaged to offset this expense.
Contact PCNA if you have dealer maintained records and see if they are willing to goodwill an engine. Will not hurt to try given your mileage.
This.
Especially since they're owned by VW now and they want to hold up their image not to mention having greater resources. I bet they would rather try to accommodate you in some way rather than risk another smear campaign. Imagine if this got out to a place like Jalopnik and went viral. That would be a PR nightmare for them.
But first get it diagnosed and also check to see if your vin is included in the suit.
All any attempted smear campaign about an IMS failure in a 996 will do at this point is add more fuel to the hysteria and drive the value down further. It won't hurt VAG at all or even amount to a blip in 991 sales.
I doubt any big sites would even bother running such a story as it is far from a new issue and there have already been plenty of owners denied assistance from PCNA.
These threads give me nightmares! You've had the car since 2007 and only have 29,000 miles on it? Sorry about your situation, but you hardly drove the car. It's a garage queen, like others have said that put you in the high risk category for IMSB failure. Drive the car slow it breaks, drive the car fast it breaks so I drive the hell out of it since it is gonna break anyways lol. It gives me at least a chance to enjoy the car.
Its supposed to if there is enough bearing material being shed before destruction. You know what is 100% proven to prevent? Replace bearing as PM but everyone knows this. Its just a roll of the dice if your one of the 10%.
KK, The failure rate is not 10%. It makes the news because its such an expensive repair and the repair can easily equal the value of the car. If it was a 20,000 dollar repair on a 200,000 dollar Ferrari it wouldn't be a big deal. The 996 can be damn near guaranteed that this will never happen for a few thousand dollars. The problem is even that is expensive compared to the cars monetary worth so most owners won't do it. Once again if it was a Ferrari owner he would have it done when he got the car detailed and not given it a second thought. I have owned two Ferrari's in my lifetime, both 12 cylinder and one I bought new. The 996 that I drive today is every bit the supercar my Ferrari's were back then and more. The value of these cars is in driving them and not monetary. You never read a post about how lousy driving these cars are, only the exact opposite. Of course we all dread hearing that someones motor just bit the dust, we know that it could have just as likely been us unless the issue has already been dealt with.
Porsche is well aware these cars are bought be a number -- a majority? -- of people who use the car rather infrequently.
If Porsche believes the car must be driven a certain number of miles or driven in a certain way to ensure engine (or car) longevity then it should make this clear.
I do not believe that the owner is to blame for this. And for you to suggest this in some way lets Porsche off the hook for something for which I think it is solely to blame.
If indeed infrequent use is to blame, I can see why the company didn't find out until a certain number of failures were reported.
The development program comprised of accelerated use of prototypes by factory test drivers prior to mass production couldn't uncover issues resulting from long periods with engine and car sitting. Prototype motors and cars are run hard on dynos and roads to replicate years of use in a relatively short period of time, I can see it's not practical or even possible to test an automobile in conditions of occasional use. In the years that followed the first sales of the M96, when the problem(s) was(were) identified (if indeed its occurance is statisfically significant), fixing it for good may have required a major redesign that Porsche considered unnecessary for a host of reasons, good and bad.
I know many are tired of debating this issue and there are knowledgable people who shared indispensible experience on the issue, I just don't see any end to the discussion.
I realize I may be contributing to the confusion with the above comments but there is no definitive answer as to what happened to the OP's car, it may well have nothing to do with IMS. My apologies if my comments were misplaced.
What the potential owners would do with the cars has little bearing on what Porsche designed them to be capable of. These were designed (and quite successfully in my opinion) to have the essence of the 911 that eats up the track, but also be the first one that you really could drive day in and day out (no worries about over heating if it gets stuck in traffic on a hot day, the interior is decently appointed, the electricals aren't flaky, the AC/heat works, doesn't have as high of a tendency to swap ends, etc..).
It's also a well known fact for
any
car that letting them sit for long periods is a bad thing if it is ever to be driven. While this is certainly not an issue for a collector of rare cars, the 996 isn't a rare car by exotic numbers. The engines need to be moving regularly to keep themselves lubricated and things working properly.
Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for the OP as it really sucks, but it has also been pretty clear that low milage examples of the 996 have a higher risk of failure than ones that are driven more frequently.
This doesn't excuse Porsche from a poor/questionable design and then not appropriately doing anything about it, but at this point you also have some responsibility if you choose to not drive the car
and
not replace the bearing. It's not a new issue and the methods of mitigating the risk aren't new either.
Macster, I am not blaming the OP for his situation. I was just pointing out that the OP claims to have driven the car a lot when he hasn't driven enough. I agree that a low mile car's engine shouldn't implode. No matter what car it is, it is bad to let a car sit for a long time. This is my first Pcar, (had it since May) so far the experience has been negative for me, but the smile I get from driving makes it all go away and I understand why people are so passionate about the brand. My family jokes that have "rebuilt" the car sinking time and money into it.
Hey, Diesel,
First, very sorry to hear about your car. As someone mentioned above, I am currently dealing with the same issue.
Here's a link to my thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...today-and.html
I think if you read through the thread, it will give you a pretty good idea of your options.
Also, in your original post, you ask how much a remanufactured engine from Porsche costs.
As far as I am aware, there or no "remanufactured" engines. A new one is about $20k. If you hunt around, you should probably be able to find a used one for 10 to 15 K.
[EDIT: Based on comments in this thread below, I guess the engines from Porsche are, in fact, remanufactured]
Regarding the value of your car with the blown motor: roughly 5 to 10K.
You might want to contact Jake Raby. He wouldn't take my car for a "repair" due to it's high mileage (I'm at 119,000 miles). He distinguishes between "repair" and "reconstruction". Based on your low mileage, I imagine he will take your car for "repair," but I don't know for sure.
So, ultimately there are no "great" options. It partly depends on how attached you are to the car.
I will certainly subscribe to your thread. Feel free to contact me if there is any additional info. I can provide.
Mike
Maybe a dumb question but would a 996tt engine fit a C4S? A quick search reveals a couple for sale and, while more expensive than NA engines I've found, you surely wouldn't have any IMS issues.
Sorry to hear about this and I have experience with it.
I lost an engine in my 2004 C4S. I purchased the car private party in October 2011 with 23k miles and the engine went in March of 2013 with 37k miles on the clock.
In 2013 the dealer quote for a Porsche remanufactured engine was $22,000 plus $17,500 core deposit to be refunded at the discretion of Porsche after the failed engine was received and inspected. HUGE chunk of insanity there. When I first heard that I said I'd park it in my front yard and make a planter out of it for all to see.
My suggestion is to try the following as it worked for me and it has also worked for others.
Work with your Porsche Dealer and allow them to diagnose and confirm the failure.
Politely ask them to file a good will claim with PCNA - they might initially resist or refuse, just politely let them know that you are aware of other 2004 C4S owners who did in fact receive a Porsche Remanufactured engine through good will. Ask them to at least give it a shot. I was aware of another member of Rennlist who used this process successfully about a year prior to my experience and used that FACT to get my dealer to give it a try.
The process starts with the dealer submitting a request on-line. In my case PCNA denied the first request because I purchased the car private party and had multiple prior owners. The dealer then followed an appeal process and ending up working with someone on the phone.
I also own a 2004 996 C2 that I purchased from the dealer as a CPO car and religiously had that car serviced by the dealer. The C4S had been a CPO car under a prior owner and that car was also religiously serviced by Porsche dealers. The phrase that was used when PCNA informed the dealer that I qualified for an engine under the good will policy; "the customer has demonstrated brand loyalty". ( I think it's more like they knew they had a huge problem and they had no excuse of improper use or service )
So in the end Porsche agreed to provide the engine and I agreed to pay for labor and fluids. The crate engine comes complete with everything except the A/C compressor and the engine and all accessories are under warranty for two years. I used the warranty on an oil pressure sending switch and a faulty charging system cable.
Note that this was prior to the class action settlement but I still think it's worth a shot.
Best of luck and again I know first hand just how bad it can feel. The good news is it is something that can be fixed or replaced, albeit with a financial cost.
Best of luck. A painful reminder of my 99 with intermix blown engine. My solution was to sell the car. I can't express in words my anger at Porsche at the time. Even after being a lifelong porschephile with 7+ 911 I quit the marque for several years.
I was tempted back by good value 996 cars but have a different reality regarding what happens if it goes boom.
None of this helps your immediate personal feeling....but just know you are not alone and lessons learned by the group will help you navigate next steps.
Only reason why I said it is because it wasn't until the VW takeover that the lawsuit got settled.
There's also been many successful owners that got their motors replaced either 100% or partially.
Make a big stink about it and the worst they can say is no. There is nothing to lose but everything to gain potentially by at least trying.
Yes some people have had success and I wish that for him as well. In all the cases I know of though it was done by quite the opposite of making a stink about it.
My point was not that he couldn't get a goodwill motor, just that a smear campaign isn't going to have any (good effect) here.
Really sorry to hear that, Hopefully everything won't be as Bad as you originally thought! Macster had some Really Great ideas also, the LS1-2 was Exactly what I was thinking BUT be prepared to be Black-Balled by some on here! I've seen some Really NICE ones that have been done & where I live there's not but 1-2 Porsche Indy's & they get the Calculator out when they see you coming! With the LS1-2 motor you Don't have to worry about that, there's Indy's EVERYWHERE that can work on it!
GL with whichever Direction you take!
Any updates from the OP?
If it came to it and if I lived in an area without rigorous smog inspection (ie CA) I would go the Renegade Hybrids/LS3 conversion route (I'm not enough of a purist to care).
You can get an LS3 V8, brand new, for $8K:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Perf...95009/10002/-1
Figure on $5-6K more for the rest of the bits needed for the conversion and your BOM cost probably isn't much more than it'd be for a used (or rebuilt) M96.
Along these lines, I recently learned of a company in Las Vegas that will do this conversion (they have a whole kit to do it, you don't need to reinvent the wheel here), and apparently they claim that it is CARB compliant for CA smog. I don't have a lot of details, but the guy that told me about it is a very reputable shop owner here in San Diego.
I'd like to learn more about this.
Anyone know of any LS conversions out there, and how it may affect the handling/performance of 996's? I imagine gas mileage must be horrendous.
Although at first I didn't like the idea of the Franken-car, it may be something I would consider if it is reasonably cost effective and results in a screamin' 996.
Cuda,
There's a guy here in Fort Lauderdale that puts the LS engines in 924's and 944's, so I don't know why he couldn't do the 996. His name is Mike Gokey - German Car Performance.
Haven't spoken to him in quite a few years, but he used to take care of my buddy's 993 and he did some work on my 986S. He always had a 944 in the garage in some stage of conversion.
Yes, the company you're referring to is Renegade Hybrids. They have a few videos of LS3-transplanted 996s (and Boxsters) on YouTube. According to them, the LS3 is lighter overall than the M96 so the center of gravity isn't affected much despite the non-flat engine layout.
If it weren't for the CA bureaucracy in terms of getting it smogged, it would be a no brainer for me (but I understand not everyone wants their P-car to sound like a Vette).
Cuda, that's the Renegade Hybrids Guys! Check'em out, last time I looked they had several videos of some of their cars & even showed some of them running around Vegas! Just saw, Andy beat me to it!
Hey all, yeah, Renegade, that's the one (I had forgotten their name).
So, what's the deal? Do you send them your car and they put in the LS? Or, do they sell the conversion kit and then you have your own mechanic do the install?
Anyone here have any personal first-hand experience them?
Thanks for the offer, JD.
Diesel, I don't mean to hijack your thread at all. Maybe this info. is useful to you too?
[EDIT: After my initial post here, I emailed Renegade with a bunch of questions, waiting to hear back.]
Thanks for the continued support guys. Nothing new to report. I have a few calls into to local shops and will make a decision where to send it this weekend. I'm looking forward to getting the diagnosis so I can start making decisions about what to do.
Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. I may not have a lot of posts here but I've been around since before I owned the car and I appreciate all the knowledge and opinions you all are offering.
Remember if you suspect is IMS failure you're part of the settlement, but the dealer or repair shop has to do the diagnosis for you and fill all paper work, if you bought it CPO 100% coverage if not 25%, you may be familiar with this but I'll give you the link anyway to see if your VIN is there
http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/faqs/#qq8
Last time i read about the IMS settlement was when it first came out so i could be wrong, but i thought it was good for cars up to ten years old? Since we are in December of 2014, I would think 10 year anniversary of the latest in service dates for even 2004 996 cars would have passed by now.
Cuda,
There you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GayWipvKpSw&list=UUw4pGsmewsNjL8gCWuMp8yQ
Problem is that you have a tip. Tip doesn't mate with V8.
Ship it on down, we have 3 DC cars heading this way just after the first of the year. Your mileage does make sense to attempt a resurrection of the engine.
I think that window has passed. I think the date was Oct 14, 2014 when Porsche was let off the hook for these repairs. Worth a try for sure but doubtful since I suspect Porsche management probably has a bad taste in their mouth over the whole thing.
"Smear" was probably the wrong word to use but a brand like Porsche should be ashamed of themselves if they are not willing to work with their customers for a failed low mileage car if the owner drove the car responsibly and not tracked it and if indeed it turns out to be the IXX. There is absolutely no excuse in any modern car not even being able to survive to at least 80-100k miles these days IMO.
To answer some of Cuda's Renegade questions, you can either buy the kit, or you can have them do the work. If you have them do the work, they prefer if you do a site visit to work out the particulars. I don't know how the site visit works if the recipient car isn't running.
If the engine, engine electronics, intake, cats and other emission-related equipment are all CARB certified, you can get a swapped car blessed by CARB. It's not easy - I've been following a Corvette owner who upgraded his older motor with a Chevy crate engine. This swap had been done before, and it was still a nightmare for the guy to get the car registered.
likely it can be done, and ultimately would make the car more valuable and easier to sell at some point. But it sure would be a lot easier to register out of state somewhere that doesn't require smog checks if you had access to such a place. Although out of state plates are a mark for cops, so not a great solution either.
I think this is where RL will come in handy. Why not one of the out-of-(CA)state rennlisters help Cuda or Diesel out with getting their Frankenstein registered in their state?
Sorry to hear. I too have recently gone through this (second time for this car).
I had 27K on the motor when she let loose at a stoplight.. on Mothers Day..
I too looked at all the options and my shop was able to resurrect my motor for significantly less than I thought it was going to be. I dropped about 18K in total, but a huge portion of that was upgrades to the car while I had it apart (Fabspeed Exhaust, Spec Clutch, IPD, Evoms Intake, Evoms Tune, H&R Suspension, tires, etc.. the list goes on.
I had the shop replace the IMS with a pinned triple row version from LN. They replaced the oil scavengers, all bearings, AOS, Water pump, Thermostat, drive belt, timing chain guides, spark plug tubes, coil packs, all internal bolts, LN Spin on oil filter, LN Chromoly hex for oil pump, etc. for roughly $4,800. They had the motor completely broken down. Fortunately for me my valve train and the pistons and rings were flawless. I was only idling when it came loose however. I've put roughly 7K miles on it since and an oil change every 2,000 miles to check for wear/shavings. It's 100%, and extremely happy.
My shop is in Minneapolis, so logistically it wouldn't make much sense to send it out this way, but if you'd like their contact info, please let me know.
This is risky. Car insurance even if one was able to obtain it by falsifying the info on the insurance application would if there is a claim probably render the coverage null and void.
Thus the owner could end up with no coverage. Bad enough if just his car was involved/damaged but it could be very very bad if he was involved in a multi-car accident and was ruled to be either partially or totally at fault.
Also, many CA drivers are sensitive to cars that are obviously used in CA but registered out of state to avoid emissions or registration costs. So much so there is a hot line set up to report cars registered out of state which really should be registered here. A neighbor often makes the call.
"Do you believe in Christmas miracles?"
This was the first thing the mechanic asked me when he called this morning to update me on my car.
He said that the initial inspection showed that there is some sort of failure in or around the ims bearing but the lead tech discovered that the engine was not locked up like it would normally be with catastrophic failure. They are going to proceed to drop the transmission to see what the damage is and what might be going on. The owner of the shop and the lead tech seem to think that the IMSB may have failed but held together because I was able to shut the engine off so quickly.
Here's hoping for that Christmas miracle. I'll continue to keep you all updated on further developments.
There are lots of things that present themselves in the manner of an IMSB failure, that really are not. These are generally main drive chain failures, and failures of the main drive chain tensioner paddle.
Further, typically an IMSB failure will NOT seize the engine. Seizure only occurs when the components fail, at the split second before they will break free as the ***** and races make no further contact. When this happens, there's nothing left to seize.
Approach with great care and be especially watchful for unknown collateral damages, like bent valves, especially on bank 1, as this bank is the first to go out of range when an IMSB failure, or main drive chain failure occurs. These things are often what costs more lost time and money than the actual failure, and its where experience with these engines, and their failures specifically, really come into play.
If the race and ***** of the bearing have come apart, and the oil system has been contaminated with debris, please think twice about which direction to go, and please don't use an LN products when trying to resurrect an engine in this manner.
Its not going to end well
Knowing what to do in this situation is important, knowing what not to do is even more important.
Get some good photos of whats found and post them.
Well, someone who calls in to report someone who's obviously living in CA and using a car registered out of state may be a douche.
But I have to offer the person who is living in CA and using the car here in CA and yet has the car registered out of state is also a douche, too.
Make that a criminal, and is defrauding the state of CA its rightful (though too high and often grievously misspent) license/registration fees. Of course this increases the burden on the those of us who register and license the car in the state and locality where we actually live and drive the car.
Also, I have to mention once again there is the question of will there actually be coverage should it come to this as the person who has registered the car out of state has lied on his insurance policy.
You're correct, my situation is about cars being too loud... they're not, but some peeps are babies. Though, I have to say, I don't feel terribly bad that California misses a few bucks because of their ridiculous smog laws.
Just heard back from the shop, here's the verdict. The car suffered catastrophic failure of the IMSB. However, after failing the bearing held together in such a way that the shaft and chain remained in place and prevented any further damage to the engine.
They told me they have seen MANY IMSB failures but have never seen one fail like this before. I was told the fact I turned the car off immediately and did not try to restart it that most likely saved my engine.
They will start repairs tomorrow. I should have her back in a day or two.
That seems pretty fast. Are they replacing the IMS shaft assembly or just the IMS bearing? Did they say anything about the chains/guides/tensioners/valves?
And please, whatever you do, ensure they use a competing product to complete this repair.
Resurrection is very, very difficult and at this stage it's impossible to assess the extent of all collateral damages. The IMS drive may no longer be running true, etc, etc... Go get pics and post them, if the bearing came apart you must approach with great care. Debris moving forward is your biggest enemy, and don't underestimate it's ability to open your wallet.
I remain in the camp suggesting this is likely worse than the shop is telling you(or knows). It would be a festivus miracle if it were true, I certainly hope they are right!
What's the name of the shop?
All too often shops try to do repairs like this because they have not learned how to go deeper, or go as far as they should with proficiency and confidence.
IF they repair it ensure they warranty the success of their repair in relation with the entirety of the engine. If they aren't willing to risk everything on their call that it's repairable, that will tell you what you need to know. The one thing that's guaranteed is that any retrofit that's used for a repair isn't covered by a part warranty. Even our competitors have been smart enough to implement that policy.
I agree that shutting the engine off immediately determines a lot, BUT the damage that was done before that is irreversible.
I don't want to rain on your Christmas but please listen to the advice being provided here. My car still ran and didn't puke one drop of oil. I heard a noise, shut it down and had it flat bedded to the dealer. I was present when they checked out the car.
At first I was relieved when the tech suspected a failing IMSB and said I was very lucky to have caught it before the engine was destroyed. I asked if it was possible to perform the LN retrofit to save the engine. The tech said it was possible but even with oil and filter changes every 500 miles I would lose the engine in short order because of the metallic debris that was obviously circulating in the oiling system.
Now, that fact that PCNA provided an engine under good will rather than attempt a repair to any degree supports the advice being given here.
Still good news that your engine might possibly be a candidate for reconstruction; just don't want you to think that you totally dodged the bullet.
From my POV it's not likely. If any metal debris exists in the engine then it will fail. My IMSB was replaced based on finding metal debris in the oil filter at my PPI. One year and 12k miles later metal started showing up again and Jake found most of the bearings worn down to the copper internal layer. The new IMSB -- LNE's -- was loose and not far from failure. Pure luck prevented a catastrophic failure with lots of collateral damage.
Listen to those who have been through this. We've done the research, talked to everyone we could find, and sorted through all the opinions when we faced this issue. A failed IMSB means the engine has a short life left without major work.
Well, I'm no expert but if the engine is deemed repairable it is not catastrophic failure.
It is an IMSB failure (if the diagnosis proves to be correct).
Now I can offer a glimmer of hope.
I have come across one 996 engine that suffered an IMSB failure. The engine was torn down and its pieces (neatly) scattered about some covered with clean shop rags to keep them clean. (I have posted pics of this engine here before.)
This was at a Porsche dealership.
I spoke to the tech who was working on the car. The car was a low miles (20K) car, located in SF. The tech said it was the typical SF car the tech said getting driven 5 miles to work, a mile or two at lunch time, then 5 miles home after work.
We talked some and surprisingly the tech said the engine was reusable and in fact he had ordered the necessary parts as it was being "rebuilt" under warranty. New IMS and IMSB, a couple of chain guides -- the plastic having been damaged some from the impact of a loose chain -- probably a new oil pump, and some sealant and gaskets and such.
The engine was in otherwise good condition, albeit the piston tops and part of the way down the sides was quite dark from combustion deposits.
However, he told me Porsche had specific guidelines in place that had to be followed to ensure the engine was salvageable.
I do not recall all of the guidelines now and the tech may not have told me all of them anyhow -- not to hide anything but due to time and the fact he was working on another car at the time -- but the ones I do remember were removing the oil scavenge pumps in the head looking for any metal debris and at other areas checking for any signs of metal debris on the clean side of the oil system.
While the metal particles from a failed IMSB get into the oil they do so on the dirty side. They go through the oil pump but are caught by the filter.
The tech said the owner heard a strange noise and shut off the engine immediately. He did not try to restart the engine.
This is very important. Had he restarted the engine, at least attempted to, and especially later when the engine was cool/cold some oil might have been routed around the oil filter and thus dirty oil routed to the rest of the engine and rendered the engine unsalvageable.
Believe it or not I returned to the dealer the next day to pick up my car and the engine and the car was gone. I asked the tech where the engine was and he said the parts came in and he put the engine together and the engine back in the car and added oil and road tested the car and all was well and the car was parked on the roof garage awaiting the owner to come and pick up the car. That was one impressive Porsche tech, but he has been working on these cars for like ever I take it.
My point to all of the above it to offer you hope, but to also highlight the reality of the situation. The engine must be carefully inspected and only if found free of any excessive collateral damage then "rebuilt".
In the engine I encountered, as I mentioned one maybe two chain guides were missing some plastic -- not much be it was obvious some plastic had been knocked off -- and except for the chain guides, the IMS and IMSB and oil pump, the rest of engine suffered no collateral damage and the IMSB metal debris was confined to the dirty side of the engines oil system.
Might mention the engine cases were apart and the engine "block" was throughly cleaned. The heads were off but left untouched. The rods/pistons were out of the block along with the crankshaft cradle and the main bearings were exposed. All were ok.
Wonder what happened to Diesel and his car. He never followed back up on this thread or did he? I'm curious if the car had anymore issues since the IMS repair.
Because of the nature of the extremely unique circumstances of the IMS failure the shop noted. Jake Raby claimed there may be collateral damage that could show itself latter down the road if not addressed immediately. Since it's been almost three years, I'm curious if the OP has experienced any problems.
I would venture a guess that the car has been sold (to an unsespecting buyer?) and "diesel" has moved on... Unfortunately, there are many of these ticking time-bombs out there! This is the main reason that the value of 996's will stay low for many, many years...
Supposedly, the OP "saved it in time" by turning it off and not trying to restart the car. The IMS was replaced, but I wonder if the car experienced any collateral damage. I sent the OP a PM, but he never responded. Guess we'll never know. ugh!
I felt the same way. My gut feeling is the car didn't last much longer after the shop replaced the IMS only to experience catastrophic failure from collateral damage as Jake Raby mentioned.
