Update on my 996 4S. Confirmed IMS starting to fail on LN retrofit with only 11k mile

Welp, it was thought that my RMS was leaking, but that was confirmed today not to be the case. The LN retrofit bearing that had been used to replace the Porsche IMS was heading to failure. The bearing has a little bit of play, and it is rough when spun. There was no debris in the oil pan, so we're good to go. They're replacing the bearing with a self oiling system that is guaranteed for life. So the LN bearing is not a guarantee. It failed even faster than a stock bearing. Will update this thread as the job gets done. The dealership is paying half of the cost, which I think is great. They don't warranty non Porsche parts, but they told me they are as surprised as me that this thing failed so quickly. The job will cost me 1250 in total. I'll make sure they save the bearing so I can take pics as well. EDIT: Praise be to Colorado Springs Porsche! Julio and Marcus are awesome!

You, my friend, are a very lucky guy!

Don't I know it. This repair could have easily been 13-14k.

Was the LN bearing a classic or pro?

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Not sure. I'll find out when I pick up the car tomorrow.

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Did you replace the original bearing or did a PO do it? If it was a PO, how many miles were on the bearing when they sold it? Was the full qualification done before its install? Was the original bearing sent in to LN to inspect for their warranty? Was LN contacted prior to starting this thread? How long ago was the bearing changed (time, not miles) and how many oil changes have been done in that time?

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The Colorado Springs Porsche dealership replaced the bearing. The engine had to be rebuilt after complete failure of the factory bearing at 34k miles. LN was contacted by the dealership. They stated that their warranty is 30 days. LN bearing was installed in March of '15. Can't speak to a qualification being done, as I don't know what that means. One oil change was performed since bearing install. Leaking started just over a month ago.

Would be nice to offer to send it back to LN.

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I'll contact them and do that.

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Damn, he's right. See paragraph 6B here: http://lnengineering.com/resources/s...nd-conditions/ That surprises me. I've bought jugs of milk with longer.

Was the replacement shaft checked for runout, did the dealership use the same IMS shaft that began to have a failure beforehand? I'd think so, as if they'd replaced with a new OEM shaft it would have the M97 diameter IMS Bearing and you'd not be able to retrofit without disassembly at this time. You need to gather a ton of information and create a back story on this one, a few things don't add up already. That said, ask the dealer how they had the parts cleaned before reassembly of the engine. If the original bearing failed, and they did not ultrasonically clean all the parts, to include the crankcase, then debris from the prior failure DID exist (nothing else will remove it from the pathways within the oiling system) and that debris is more than likely what catalyzed this issue. Don't mention ultrasonic cleaning to them, see if they mention it to you. That said, call LN and report this yourself.

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Thanks for the details. There have been plenty of posts accusing the LN bearing in the past, but no details about the history are offered when asked. So thanks Do you have the details of what the "rebuild" entailed? Spend enough time here and you'll learn that not all "rebuilds" are created equal. When installed by a certified installer there is a pre-qualification done. They go over the motor with a fine tooth comb to make sure that everything is in order to assure the best possible outcome. One thing that automatically disqualifies a motor is if the current bearing is failing (if any material has been shed, it has failed). The reasoning and concern is that there are places in the motor where the debris can get stuck and sit there for a long time before finally coming free and damaging the motor. If the original bearing failed then the suggested course of action is a complete teardown, cleaning, and inspection. This is why I'm asking about the "rebuild" process since skimping in the process can leave debris lurking in your motor wait to jump out and bite you. I couldn't tell you the specifics off the top of my head, but reading it through is why I found the decision to hang onto mine easy.

Debris is a huge deal with these engines post failure. A few years ago I invested in 3 industrial Ultrasonic cleaners, and the differences I saw in our used oil analysis right away was astounding when compared to the other processes we'd been using previously with engines that had prior failures. The smaller, and finer debris is the worst for chewing things up, because, it is lightweight and suspends very easily in the oil, so its delivered everywhere in the engine. Don't fall for things that are "guaranteed for life" when you own underwear thats had more time in service than the company has been around thats making those lifetime claims. Nothing mechanical is eternal. That said, your new "oiling kit" will just deliver newly contaminated oil directly into the replacement bearing. The oil that it sees is NOT "just filtered"

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I do not know if the shaft was checked for runout. I know the entire engine was disassembled and cleaned. There are new sleeves for the pistons, and some other things I can't remember off the top of my head. I'll ask about cleaning.

I'd expect if they keep any records on the engines that they'd log the source of the shaft that was used. Since the shaft has the M96 diameter IMSB that rules out a new genuine shaft being used, as they have all been sold with the M97 diameter bearing housing since April of 2006. You cannot buy a new OEM shaft that has the M96 diameter housing. The method of cleaning means everything. I have seen this over and over again with engines that we see come to us from other shops and dealers. -Have you done any used oil analysis? -How many times was the oil changed in that 11,000 miles? - What break in regimen was used for the reassembled engine, and what oil was used for that period? - How many miles did you drive the car on the first oil change after engine reassembly? These things are VERY important moving forward, especially now that debris laden oil will be delivered directly to your replacement bearing.

I have done no oil analysis. Oil was changed twice in 11000 miles. I used regular 0w-40. No break in period was prescribed. I changed the oil the first time after 5000 miles.

So, after reassembly the engine was driven 5,000 miles before the oil was changed the first time, right? Was this oil Mobil 1 0-40? Where are you located?

And moving forward, what action should I be taking. Assume the worst case scenario. I appreciate you going over all this with me.

Yes, this was driven with with mobil oil. 5000 on the first oil change. I'm in Colorado Springs.

http://imgur.com/qFpLNl2 http://imgur.com/F9FMD5q Here are the two invoices they gave for the rebuild.

Haven't had a chance to use this lately, so need to pop it into this thread:

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What does that mean? Lol, nvm. I didn't put the B on the end. Too many beers

If metal from the first IMS bearing implosion is still floating around in there, I doubt the LN IMS Solution is gonna last any longer than the LN IMS replacement. I'd worry that rebuilt engine is toast and sell the car back to the dealership after the repair

Based on your invoice it seems to confirm my suspicions about the IMS assembly that was used, being the unit that was previously in the engine. This is the same unit that had experienced the failure of the OEM bearing. Please clarify this with the dealership. Again, had they sourced anew IMS assembly, the replacement unit would have been of the M97 variety and the bearing would not be removable with the engine assembled. Verify where the shaft was sourced from, or if it was your previous unit.

It was not ultrasonically cleaned. I'm having them look to see if the shaft was replaced. i almost doubt that it was.

Please confirm the information about the origin of the shaft. With no shaft on the parts list, and the fact that there's no way they would have "given" one to you, its almost positive that this shaft was reused from the failure. That said, the statement on the final page of the invoice further alludes to the possibility that the shaft was reuse after suffering a failure of an OEM bearing.

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Which means that you could be going through this all over again in the future I gotta say, you're taking this all amazingly well. Not the typical "LN bearing is failing!" thread at all

I've got them working on it right now. If it's true that they used the original shaft, then I'm just going to sell it back to them, or to carmax.

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I don't know what else I can do, really. I don't know that getting angry would do me any good. Best to keep a cool head and salvage from this what I can.

Jake...you would make a great Insurance Adjuster...

This thread is not accurately titled. It should be "Engine failing after 11k miles" Why? Because the LN IMSB is just whats shown the issues first. Trust that every internally lubricated portion of the engine is seeing detrimental effects from this scenario. It will continue to in the future, as well.

Fantastic

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For the customer maybe. He'd cost the insurer too much money as he'd note every little thing

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I hate insurance companies.. That said, other than the time I get to build engines myself, all I do is related to failure analysis. Understanding the variables with each failure is the key to developing products and procedures to avoid those types of failures in the future. You can't work with something that you don't fully understand. Failures consume all my extra time to think, it's actually quite addictive. One of the things I am working on for The Knowledge Gruppe now, is a failure analysis guide for these engines. It's a first hand pictorial of the different failures, what they are called, and what leads to them. I'm not sure where that will end up, probably being sold to technicians at some point. I see the same things happening over and over again these days.. Engines are seeing recurring issues as part of a repair or reassembly (rebuild) that wasn't carried out correctly, based on the failure, or application Today well over 1/2 the work we see come in our doors is "re-do" work from failed attempts of others. We did not see this 3 years ago, as shops and others didn't have the testicular fortitude to go inside the engine. Today they don't have the sense to leave it to a specialist, and just stay away from something that they don't thoroughly understand. Till it blows up in their face.

Hopefully potential buyers of cars with recently fitted IMSB's will read this thread .If the pre-qualification check is not prooved to have been done by a competent and trustworthy mechanic, the engine could be a time bomb. And then there are the issues with the 6 speed gearbox .... My car was one such vehicle. Bought it with a new IMSB fitted .It needed a total engine rebuild in less than 1000 miles. No pre-qualification check . Best advice is to discuss any prospective purchase here before you buy. The cost of an engine rebuild may exceed the value of the car ! Beware of the M96 - sloppy mechanical work may bite you in the a$$.

^^I wouldn't trust ANY porsche engine work (no matter what model) unless a qualified shop did the job. I've seen so many "hack jobs" done over the years; 356 engine rebuilds, 911sc top ends, 964 engine leaks, 993 air passage cleanings, list goes on and on. Everyones a photographer and everyone thinks they can repair a Porsche. I'm sure there are a few competent owners who do work on their car but few and far between.

I have to be honest, it appears unless you have a certified redone Flat Six engine with all the bells and whistles, you're further ahead sticking with the OEM installed ISMB if it is all well at present!!

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I just rebuilt and reinstalled a brake booster pump on my Volvo; therefore, that makes me a Porsche expert, right Groov?

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Funny (as in coincidence). I was just thinking the exact same thing myself!!!

OP, you're very lucky to catch it on time. Jake already commented and helped a lot but for future readers, this article is a must-read for anyone dealing with an IMSB failure. http://imsretrofit.com/ims-101/ Excerpts from the article: "One thing is for sure. Once you have experienced an IMS bearing failure, there is no turning back. A complete engine dis-assembly is required to replace the intermediate shaft and in most cases, complete rebuild or engine replacement is your only option" " When an IMS failure occurs, or more specifically the ball-bearing or bearing support fails, the intermediate shaft is damaged beyond the point of being serviceable , but moreover, debris from the failure contaminates the entire engine, requiring a complete teardown and rebuild to recover from such a failure."

Does anyone else remember reading a thread about an LNE bearing that failed except in the past several months? I think we are getting to that point in time/mileage where everyone who bought into the IMS Hysteria...and went out and purchased the LNE Retrofit to be proactive...are starting to see those bearings fail as well. Of course...its not the fault of the bearing. Its the design. Or the installation. Or the car wasn't properly checked out to be a perfect candidate...yada, yada, yada... Oh yeah..wasn't Porsche blamed for the same thing? I replaced my perfectly good OEM bearing on my 996 and I gotta say, I'm starting to think I wasted $2,000...

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Kind of like "damned if you do and damned if you don't".

or you saved yourself $20k

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Except that information is important and this is a perfect example. We know that the motor failed, was not properly cleaned, and it's pretty clear that critical parts were not replaced. In such a situation we know that this is going to cause another failure sooner or later. It's just a matter of time. So it's not really that the bearing itself failed of it's own accord, it's just the first thing that is seen and therefore blamed. The other issue I don't think you account for here is the case of the bearing failing so the unscrupulous owner gets the oil flushed, slaps a LN bearing in it, and then sells it on to someone that just sees that the bearing has been "taken care of" and has no idea that they are buying a time bomb. Sadly we've seen these. From reading Jake's commentary over the years I'm pretty convinced that either a motor is destined to have a bearing failure, or it's not. It seems like for those motors that will eventually fail it doesn't really matter what bearing is in there as it is a manufacturing issue more than the fault of the bearing itself. I honestly wish I left our bearing well enough alone, but it's water under the bridge at this point. I believe I have heard the claim (Jake please correct me if I am misremembering) that no Solution has failed that was installed by a certified installer. That sounds good and all, but given all the things they have to check the end result is either the motor getting its issues addressed first or it was a motor that never would have failed to begin with. Unfortunately there is no cheap way to know which motor you've got beforehand. So I would agree just slapping a new bearing in isn't much better than whistling in the dark, but if you have it done following LNE's qualification guidelines I think that does have value as it would either identify that you have other issues going on or can be reasonably confident you have a solid motor.

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This engine was a time bomb because it already exploded once, and wasn't taken care of properly in the "rebuild" if I understand correctly. Sound like this might have been the second time the engine needed rebuilding? Or are you suggesting the IMSB bearing catastrophically failed?

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That's kinda the point though. There is a camp that believe that buying a car with the original IMSB is better than one where it has been replaced. The idea being that in most cases you can't know the real state of the motor (done by a certified installer being the exception). I find myself in that camp. Was the PO someone like me that really did it proactively, but didn't use a certified installer? Or is it lipstick on a pig that the PO is trying to lose as little as possible? It's a shame that the later question has to be asked, but we all know it happens (and the OP even mentioned a carmax sale ).

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Interesting point. So, lets assume that in one example the OEM bearing is destined to live a long and useful life. But...the owner, after reading all the IMSB Failure Hysteria...decides to do the LNE IMSB retrofit for "peace of mind" or as a "preventative measure". The actual process (or lack of process) of replacing the bearing could eventually lead to the failure of the LNE IMSB...

Now.. Hold on! You guys need to read this whole thread... This was NOT an IMS retrofit procedure. Before we go that far, what failed was not an IMS Solution, which is my patented plain bearing IMSR product. The failure of an IMS Solution has NEVER occurred in the hands of any shop, Certified Installer, or DIY installer. Not a single one. Not once, not ever. Please don't even bring up my IMS Solution in this thread! The OP's original bearing failed. His engine was disassembled by a dealer and was then reassembled by that dealer. At that time it was fitted with what appears to be a Classic Single Row IMSB from LN (based on the invoice). Again, this was NOT a standard retrofit process, it was reactionary from a failed OEM IMSB. -All roads lead to the fact that the assemblers reused an existing IMS shaft that had already been through a failure. Nothing proves that they did not, to include invoices. The OP will clarify this today. -I confirmed with LN this morning that this dealer has NEVER sent a shaft in to be checked for straightness, or to be pinned. -None of the parts for this engine were ultrasonically cleaned, even after being exposed to high enough levels of debris contamination to warrant engine disassembly to "clean it up". Without ultrasonically cleaning the parts the debris will not be thoroughly removed, and short service interval oil changes are of utmost importance following reassembly. This did NOT happen in this case. -The engine had no break in period. -The engine did NOT see a short first service interval. -The engine went 5K miles on its first fill of oil after reassembly, and not even the filter was changed earlier. -No one cared enough, or was thorough enough to carry out a used oil analysis. Again, no part of this thread should be confused with a standard IMS Retrofit procedure, or elective IMS procedure. This engine had FAILED. The debris alone could have caused this.... Or the secondary collateral damage that occurred to the IMS shaft during the failure that it saw previously could have also caused this. Couple these two items together and you could have a perfect storm. That said, we have already determined that some IMS shafts are more prone to failure than others due to the runout of the IMSB housing bore. In this case its not the bearing's fault that it failed, as it was running elliptically in the shaft. This is why no shaft that has seen a failure should be reused, and even if one wants to take chances and do so it must have the housing bore verified. Shafts that have had bearings fail will generally shrink in inner diameter due to the heat associated with said previous failure. This increases load on the outer race of any bearing that will be fitted later, and reduces running clearances. We have seen as figures of .013" of runout in a shaft that had seen an IMS bearing failure. This means that had that shaft been used again, it would have a much higher rate of potential failure, EVEN in a perfect world where debris did not exist. This is why it seems that engines that have lost a bearing are much more likely to lose a bearing again. Thats why no bearing that is in the process of failing should be retrofitted. If it is, extreme judgment and risk must be executed. Now, how about the variable of IMS to crankshaft distance deviations? Thats another variable that we see that most never even consider... How about failing IMS tensioners failing, leading to more load, or vibration seeing the IMS assembly? The list goes on. That said, the huge spike in IMSR procedures occurred in 2010-2013 due to the class action suit validating this problem. This means the vast majority of cars that were retrofitted during these years (despite mileage) are now at, or nearing the end of their bearing's service life in calendar time. People are generally choosing not to perform another retrofit. I know this because of the rebuttal we receive when we try to remind folks that its time for their IMSB that we replaced to be addressed again, and we offer them a smoking deal on an IMS Solution to take it's place. ecause of this refusal to follow the service lives that have been mentioned since day one, you WILL see more reports of retrofit bearings occurring. No, you won't hear the full story; because, its easier to be a victim than a failure. All in all, I can see a mile away what happened here. Why? Because I made the mistakes too, but many moons ago and on my own car... We all had to start somewhere, some of us learn faster than others. Now for the sales pitch: If you are going to do a preventative IMSR, then use my IMS Solution... Why? Because even if you have debris, and even if the IMSB is not straight, or even if you had a failure the IMS Solution has the best chance of living through this. NO, it should not be used for these types of scenarios, but is does use "just filtered oil" and it has no moving parts to be damaged by the debris. Only the bushing rotates about the flange (journal). But my part of the IMS Solution has been done since 2012, and your money will go to someone else.... But I'll always be your co- pilot. Whats the moral of this story? -If you are doing an elective retrofit, use someone who is a Certified Installer. They have something to lose, and they must live by a Code Of Conduct. They WILL pre- qualify your engine and report to me if they find something odd. (A shop in Texas just downed an install yesterday as they found an IMS Tensioner paddle wear pad in pieces and aborted the job) -If the engine ha to come apart, choose the person doing the work wisely, and watch over them to ensure they are doing things that are common sense. Anyone with a tool box can work on something, but less than 1% have enough sense, or care enough to do the job. if not you WILL be doing this again, and all you'll experience is excuses and finger pointing. Guaranteed.

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Maybe. Or like I wrote ^^^, I could have actually caused a $20K failure by replacing the OEM bearing. Let's talk in a few more years when owners who decided to proactively replace their OEM bearing at 30K miles start having those bearings fail at 60K miles... My point is this. Only in recent months have I read any thread about the failure of an LNE IMSB. There have been at least 3 where there used to be 0. That can't be ignored.

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I read the thread. and I would agree with Jake. this isn't a LN IMSB failure.

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It must be. The title says so.

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I don't think that's true. Seems to me that we get one or two a year that want to blame a LNE bearing. What's atypical about this thread is that other than the title he isn't blaming the bearing which is the normal case (and technically the title can be read as non-accusatory too. e.g. IMS is failing and it already has the retrofit). He honestly answered what most in his position seem to find tough questions and hasn't gotten upset about the results those answers produced. Normally a thread like this is like as they just want to "prove" that the LNE bearing is a bad option. Kudos to the OP for being honest with us and helping document what could have led to his current predicament.

Keep in mind that we have performed more IMSR procedures here than anywhere else in the world. This year we will top 600 retrofits (even though we have slowed down accepting IMS work to focus on building engines) and that includes the very first one ever carried out. Not just the first Classic bearing, but the first Single Row Pro, and the first IMS Solution (which pre- dates everything). Of those we have NEVER had a single failure. Not one. Since we have done more than anyone, we should have the highest number of failures, IF the bearings fail as some accuse them. You have never read of a failure of a bearing that we've retrofitted, because we explicitly qualify the engine before we will retrofit it. Now, if we didn;t do this we would have probably had dozens of failures, because I turned down 15 engines due to impending, or current issues last year alone. Its so bad now with other issues that we are forcing those who want us to do the work to have an initial inspection done locally (with my check list) before the car even ships to us. We got tired of shooting people down and their cars were as much as 2500 miles away from home. That sucks. This way, the blatant stuff is found before we ever get a vehicle on our property, and the chances of disqualification is greatly diminished. The fact that we haven't had any failures is proof that a proper pre- qualification is the key. The issue with general shops doing this work is they can't charge for the prequal and why should they care anyway? Its not their product, or reputation. Just like this case, the blame goes to "LN" and its their problem, even though its not. The World sucks.

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That goes to my point I think. You are making sure that the engine is in perfect condition before the new bearing goes in and I think that begs two questions. Of all those retrofits, how many passed with no additional work required to bring them up to your standards? Assuming there were some that required no additional work, would they have been just fine if the factory bearing hadn't been touched or an OEM bearing could have been reinstalled? I'm not trying to knock the work or effort in the pre-qual process as I believe there is value there (e.g. your aren't sitting on a time bomb), but to me the claim reads as "no perfectly healthy motor has failed".

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+1

I'll start this reply by stating that the IMS Retrofit is only for elective retrofits of IMS Bearings found in healthy engines. It always has been. Most all of them. Why? Because when we disqualify an engine we do not try to upset the customer on repairing the engine to bring it up to par. Doing that is not healthy for my program, as it looks like we downed it just to make more money. Most of the time when we find something wrong, its seep enough that the entire engine has to come apart to address it. I can remember maybe 10 times that we've moved forward with this, and those were all instances where we caught timing chains, or IMS drive chains failing. About the only thing we'd ever repair would be 5 chain engines that had excess cam deviations, and needed 4th and 5th chains, as well as wear pads. The main reason we implemented the local initial evaluations was to curb the chances of a car getting here and needing a repair that we didn't want to give the person bad news about, and potentially **** him off. No, keep in mind that these were generally OTHER issues with the engine. Over the years I have only caught 5-6 bearings in process of failure. The OTHER things are what concern us, especially failing cylinders that shed very fine high silicon debris into the oil that chews things apart fast. Which proves the validity of the retrofit and the robustness of the product, when implemented as developed, and directed. If the bearings had a problem, they would be failing in "perfect engines" that I retrofit. Not the case. That said, moving forward we will experience our first failure, because people are refusing to listen to service directives for their retrofit. The cars are getting older and have more issues that can easily lead to a failure of the IMSB as collateral damage.. My day is coming.

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I get that. I realize my question may have come off that way, but it really wasn't my intent. I honestly figured you did do some repairs and wondered about the ratio. Makes perfect sense since I'd be pretty upset to go through shipping my car only to find I either need to pay to ship it home and hope for the best or consider a much larger bill This is the crux of what I'm asking. When you are catching these things you are disqualifying the motor, correct? If so, it's the ones that you are not disqualifying that I'm asking about. If they aren't showing signs of these other issues, what are the odds that changing the bearing really has any net effect? It seems to me that the real value is more in the qualification process than the bearing itself. That's not to say that the LNE isn't any better than the OEM bearing, just that it really feels like (from a layman's perspective) that if the motor passes your inspection then there was little risk of a bearing failure anyway. I'm not really trying to argue that as I think it's been shown that the LNE bearing has a pretty good track record regardless of who installed it. I'd say you've planned for it though and done everything you can to put it off for as long as possible though

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I'm in that camp. Bought a car with original bearing but replaced it afterwards.

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I bought this car from a Porsche Dealership. All work was done by the dealership. It was in their possession when the previous IMS failed. There was no work done on it by anyone aside from the dealership. I have every receipt for everything done on the car. I feel that threads tend to get derailed by guys making sarcastic comments. I have thought about offloading the car at Carmax, and that is the only mention of that establishment that I ever made.

Most of the time people send us mint cars that are low mileage for our retrofit. It costs as much as double what other people charge, and then they pay shipping on top of that. We do see some run of the mill high mileage cars, but generally we shy away from even a accepting cars with more than 100K on them. I am ready to drop that to 80K now that the cars are older and time in service is showing that miles don;t matter to many failures. In the very early days of all this, I wanted to be a Hero... I wanted to take my process and save an engine that had a bearing in process of failure. I wanted to save that engine that the dealer told the person needed to be replaced with no possibility of repair "because the bearing can't be changed". I wanted to extend my middle finger to the clown at the dealership that said that, and prove them wrong. I did that for a few years over and over again, and we saved engines. In fact, in the earliest of days no one would perform an elective retrofit, so we had to implement the bearings in engines where bearings were failing to get any reputation behind the product, and my procedure. Once a few dozen people said "these guys saved my engine", thats all it took and elective work started pouring in. NOW! Before anyone uses what I just said against me, you must understand how far we went when doing these "repairs"where we saved engines using my procedure and the LN IMSR kits. We didn't just swap the bearing! We knew that with a new product we had HUGE targets on our backs, and one single issue would bring it all crashing down, so with each repair came a liability. I warned owners about all of this and told them the risks involved. I'd not accept one if someone asked if they could "sue Porsche". We'd pull cam covers off and flush the entire engine over and over again. I even made a device that hooked to the primary oil system to flush hot solvent through all of the oil passages. We would change the oil 3 times in the first 100 miles, then pull cam covers and the sump again and flush it all again. Then the customer had to do 2-3 more flushes and until we saw the iron dropping in the oil's used oil analysis we had them continue doing this. Only then did we know that it was going to be safe. Sometimes it would take a week to perform a resurrection, but the efforts worked and to date none of those have reported a problem. One is still owned by a lady in Texas that sends us a fruit cake every Christmas, and she bought the 97 Boxster new! Back then I had the time to do this, and again, it made me feel like we had accomplished something. Thats when I said "We do the difficult things quickly, the impossible stuff takes a little longer". No, I disagree. The value of the pre- qualification is HUGE... BUT if the bearing isn't failing today, will it be tomorrow? Performing an elective retrofit to a healthy engine, restarts the stopwatch for the life of the IMSB. Utilizing the IMS Solution puts the risks aside as there's nothing to fail. In the instances where I have forced a failure in development all the engine did was pick up a rattle. One engine lived 270 hours at idle with that rattle and it never got worse, till I put it on the dyno and attempted to hold it at 6K for 4 hours. It finally dropped an exhaust valve and exploded in a fashion that still gives me a woody every time I think about it. Think I'm good at building things? You've never seen me blow something up. You'll never hear someone that has lost an IMSB say that they were happy that they didn't fall for the "hysteria". Those are the people that you listen to. It'll be 10 years later this year since we started doing elective work with the IMS Retrofit. It should have happened already. Its going to suck when it does, and I am sure it'll be exaggerated everywhere by people who know nothing. Welcome to the suck.

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That's the comment I was referring too and it's frowned on since it ultimately isn't going to hurt Carmax but instead hurt the unsuspecting buyer. We've seen a number of people that picked up Carmax cars only to have them die pretty soon after purchase. I feel for your situation, I really do. You want to get out of what appears to be a sinking ship while losing as little money as possible. Unfortunately the options are to get it fixed right (e.g. lots of $$$), be honest with any potential buyers about it's health and history (e.g. low sale price), or pass it on with little/no history (e.g. get the most you can out of it). All those options suck I'd probably go with a variation of #2 myself. I'd get it back and from then on put as little into it as possible (e.g. tires, gas, brakes, and oil) and then just run it until it explodes. If an upfront sale is going to be close to roller value anyway, might as well get some enjoyment out of turning it into a roller and hope that it happens later rather than sooner.

We call that "a max attack"... Guess what, Carmax never sees these cars on their lots, they auction them. I have had a car leave me disqualified with one owner, only to come back to me with a failure 3 weeks later with a new owner... Same VIN, and what I had told the old owner would fail, is what the new owner got to pay for.

The shaft was never checked or replaced. Correct on that.

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This is my plan so far. Anyone done a gm conversion on a 996? At this point I wouldn't care if it's a frankenporsche. Might just keep it as a track car and do some weird engine stuff. At any rate, I'll let you guys know.

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That bearing was doomed. Now the engine is, because it'll more than likely just fail all over again. The drive sprocket probably isn't even running true. Thats usually what happens first when a bearing fails. Now, see the tensioner paddle mentioned on the invoice? The collateral damage from the bearing failure took out this par, but no one considered that the shaft could be damaged? Someone needs a throat punch from the owner for making that judgment call!

So what would a rebuild done right cost?

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And that is my question. Would it have on the motor that passed the qualification? If we know that the majority of claimed IMSB failures are actually a different failure that took the bearing along with and your pre-qual verifies that those cases don't exist, how much risk is there that the bearing itself is going to be what fails the next day? We know that there are many OEM IMSBs out there will over 100k and at least one example over 200k! So it's clear that while it may not have been the best unit for the application, it works the majority of the time. I never bought into the hysteria and I finally replaced it when I said I would (when I needed a new clutch). I evaluated the risk as best I could and decided that knowing the car for 14 years at that point made the "OMG replace it now!1!" response uncalled for. I was fully prepared to call you about a new motor with my tail between my legs if it failed though You are right that the ones that skip a recommended action will never be happy with the decision if it bites them, but there are also plenty that are blissfully unaware of the whole problem and the cars have long and healthy lives. There are also those that do follow the recommendations and question (when they see those that skip it and have no issues) if it was a worthwhile investment. In the end it's all a gamble and personal risk tolerance. No doubts about that At least you got Uncle Sam to pay for preparing you for it

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These are the things someone has to risk themselves when making the choice. If I had a 996 with a dual row IMSB I'd just take my chances. If the car was a single row, HELL NO! I've let local guys with single row bearings that could not afford to do the work pay me when they had the money, just to get the damn OE bearing out of the engine. They damn sure could not afford a failure. This is why we never push anyone to do a retrofit. They need to convince themselves, or decide not to do things on their own.

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Damn I HATE that word.. Rebuild.. Let's build the motor under an Oak tree. To properly address the issues it costs more than the car is worth monetarily. If you love the car and can understand value, then its a 22,500.00 expenditure, (For my Street Performer)but it'll be a 3.8 when I am done making 40+ more HP and Tq than original. I'd love to tear into this one and see just what the real issues were, and how bad that shaft was when they reused it.

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Yeap there are a few LS powered 996s out there. I haven't followed it, but I think there is a company in Las Vegas (Renegade?) that sells a modification kit to do it. From what little I have read about such conversions, they start off looking cheap but end up costing close to what getting a healthy M96 back in there costs. Especially if a shop is doing the work. I never remember the name, but there is a spinoff (or subsidiary? partner?) of LNE that offers a stock equiv rebuilt motor (all the big failures are already addressed) for about $20k. Last I heard Jake's rebuilds started about $25k. There is also Martin who seems to be in the $15k range, but I would suggest doing some serious research on him first (start with a misfire related thread by DrMEMS). If you have the space/time/inclination you could do a rebuild yourself. Ashai and AWDGuy both have excellent threads about rebuilding theirs.

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Don't forget the options about running over a big pothole and having your sump pan break or leaving it at a Trump Rally to have it vandalized and set on fire.

Ah yes, the insurance fraud option. I always forget that one! Thanks for reminding me

I agree that poor pre qualification or not properly rebuilding the motor could have had impact on the OP's upgraded LN bearing. It would the same for any other bearing, obviously you cannot have any metal debris inside the engine. Unfortunately, we are talking about LN single row ball bearing which is worth $30 and has ceramic ***** installed for additional $20. We have seen a few LN failures in our shop. Our customers replaced a totally good oem bearing in healthy running motors (never rebuilt oem engines with low mileage). In the end, they ended up with $15k in extra expenses for engine repair. LNE and Jake always blame the installer, failing engine, misalignment, etc...Many shops which purchase our roller bearings or our competitor's roller bearings and used LN ball bearings in the past do not want to hear about LNE anymore. More and more people are starting to see the truth, that's a good sign. Jake, I'd stay away from pinpointing if the dealership in Colorado Springs cleaned the engine or not. I'd work on your own cleaning if I were you, I told you that in the last tread where I posted pics of your dirty pistons, rusty rods and cases which were not resurfaced. Your engine cases looked like scrap metal. You got so mad that you closed your FB page for a while. As usual you just bark like a dog and hide in your doghouse. You noticed less people calling so you brought your FB pg back to life. Your actions are erratic, you say one thing and do another. If you want to see what good quality European work looks like take a look below To the OP, I can advise you to visit another Porsche dealer in Denver (Prestige Imports), 75 miles away from your dealer. They purchased our rebuilt motor for their customer and shipped his core with IMS failure to our shop. We can offer you a rebuilt engine for $13,000 which comes with 1 year warranty, forged pistons, resleeved cylinders, IMS roller bearing upgrade, restored heads and new parts inside...

Marty I was wondering when you would crawl out from under your rock. We all know the apples and orange comparisons. In this case as usual it is apples (Jake) and moldy grapefruits (you). It's fine that you want to sell bottom feeder motors because a sucker is born everyday. OP steer clear from this character because it won't end well for you.

Oh Martin/Scott ! Your Rebuilding work is a welcome addition to the M96 world since the demise of MotorMeister. But why the ugly attempts at insulting others on the Forum ? Martin it harms your business to write such hostile words.We're here to learn about your engines not your emotions. Tell us what you do,why you do it -great -we all want to know and maybe you'll pick up customers that way. But few will pay you for a rebuilt engine just because you insult someone else who actually does tell us what he does, why he does it and offers all kinds of advice to people like me who have never been his customer. Be nice Martin. And please understand I am trying to help you.Those pics are stunning btw.Thanks for including them.

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Yes and Jake also asked twice for a reasonable change to the title which I third. The brand of bearing here is as relevant as the brand of tires that put too much load on the bearing. The brand to be maligned here should be the brand of the dealership that did the rebuild and did not address the shaft. Please consider revising or is that a post-repair thing?

I'm also think that Marty's pics are purely staged for PR. They remind me of the motors I see at the Indianapolis 500 museum......all for show.

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At first pass I too read it as "it's the bearing's fault", but after reading the OP and the subsequent replies to our queries I've gotten past the initial incendiary read and now read it in a more factual manner that his IMS is failing and the current bearing is the LNE bearing. Unlike others that have used similar titles he isn't attacking the bearing itself, it just happens to be the bearing that is in the motor. I think it's been made perfectly clear to anyone not trying to slander the LN bearing that this failure was almost assuredly not caused by the bearing and that the LN bearing is no magic bullet against failure if the rest of the process is ignored/skipped. Until we went off on our tangent about if the bearing or process is more important this was a good thread where Jake was helping the OP ask the right questions to figure out the true state of his motor so he can best plan what he wants to do going forward.

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LOL Schnell, I really don't understand why you keep calling me Scott? It's not me, it's a real guy somewhere in Ga who works on transmissions. I've never seen him or talked to him, but I googled him after that tread and found his shop. He has the same point of view as me when it comes to roller bearings, but we are not the same person. That's funny though that you keep thinking it's me

I think most readers probably enjoy jakes posts the most on RL, they are so informative and interesting and best of all...they technically make common sense. As in this guys unfortunate circumstance, certainly seems highly plausible if the engine/parts are compromised from the initial IMS grenade, throwing in another bearing no matter how well designed, will fail.

Quotes source post: 13434201

Sneaky Pete, you might have eaten too many of those apples and they got into your head All of my engines look like this one now, it's thanks to our crew in Poland. They spend hours to make it look like this. If anyone wanted to do this here in US the same engine would cost $35-40k easy with all the labor and cost of processes involved. I own my shop in Poland and my cost of running it there is super low, this is why I can afford to have my engines prepared this way. My engine guys take their time with each of them to make sure it's perfect. Each motor takes them 2 weeks to assemble once all components are prepared. Believe me, it's a little too long for me because 2 weeks is a long time to assemble 1 engine, but I'm patient and I do prefer the job to be done right. I've worked with them since I was 18 years old. Inside all parts are pretty much the same as your "apple grower", forged pistons, resleeved cyl's (steel or nickies upon request), light connection rods, etc...Difference is my prices are European instead of American, this is why my customers get a great product for a great price. If you still think it's a museum engine maybe today's comment from my FB page will tell you otherwise: "I wanted to let you know that the motor was installed and is running great! The mechanic noted that he was amazed at how clean the rebuild was and how seamless it was on the install side. It was a great day getting my Boxster back and hearing the engine at my back! Thank you so much for your assistance in getting me back up and running again. It was nerve racking buying an engine from someone 3000 miles away and the motor even further away." If you want to find it on my FB pg it's under: Freshly rebuilt 2.7l Boxster engine left to Saskatchewan, Canada today from May 24th. That's just today's one happy customer from Canada, my engines run all over Europe, US, Canada, Mexico, Carribean, Israel, Australia, soon Chile and Japan. We will soon have a new surprise for customers here in US

Marty....regarding how clean your motors are....you have said before you media blast everything. Using a media blast will leave tiny particles through every nook and cranny. But the blast is just for aesthetics. Surely you can post a pic of your ultrasonic cleaner with an M96 block immersed....yes? You do have one right?

Quotes source post: 13434165

I don't know how to edit a title.

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Thank you. This isn't about me, though... It's about the OP and he likely won't come my way. I think it's important to stay on topic.

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Pete, I think I'll buy you a plane ticket to Poland so you can see what Europe looks like. I'd like you to see local repair shops, streets, businesses, buildings, houses, cars, etc...I will tell you this, in US you have to buy an ultrasonic washer from your own funds or charge it to your cc. In Europe when you start your business you get a big donation from EU to fund your equipment. I have everything I need there for free All I have to do is run my business and pay taxes. I drove through Indiana last Monday, the roads are horrible, views and weather even worse. I dare to say Eastern Russia looks a whole lot better than your home state. Please don't ask me about things you have no idea about.

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Martin, If Poland and Eastern Russia are so perfect and the deep pocketed European Union so great and "giving" with free stuff, then why are you living such a horrible life here in the United States???

I'm here because I don't have to go to work everyday, instead I do what I love: race my sport bike. I don't have to get up in the morning and go to work to make my payments to the bank like 90% of people in US . Instead I spend my days in sunny Florida under beautiful palm trees.

just fitted the EPS eternal fix retro IMS bearing, without the oil feed, was a half day job, engine out and back on, changed the trans fluid as well. The Engine runs perfectly now and no more "worries", the old ims bearing was a double row looked in perfect condition as well, been informed not to go above 5000rpm for a few hundred km to run it in. next door was a 997 turbo with a blown engine!!! so much for their 'bulletproof' reputation.

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Maybe stick to enjoyign the beautiful weather and the race bike. All these posts do is make you look unprofessional.

Heres the old bearing

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FIFY "I have many peasants back in my home country working for peanuts on equipment my government paid for so I can travel the world and ride my motorcycle." This is exactly what we need in this country is more self-serving douche bags.

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For sure the weather in Indiana last Monday was awful. A lot of Independence day celebrations went to the wayside. Thanks for the travel offer but you can keep your ticket....I've been there and the welfare state of the EU is turning into a cesspool....no wonder you are over here living like a pimp. Getting back on topic.... as usual you haven't answered the question regarding cleaning your motors. Your latest answer has me thinking you have a sweat shop with 14 guys and one bucket of 409 cleaner. There is a joke in there somewhere. OP sorry for getting your thread off track.

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Edit post, go advanced? That usually works on these forum builders. One week on the forum and I already know who I won't be buying motors from for my Porsches...

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one week on the forum and you already know you WILL be buying motorS for your po

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Great decision, at least you wont have to worry about it going bad.

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Martin, I don't understand why you praise Poland for being so great, but yet, rather live, do business, and "play" in the United States. Fortunately, the US is not as socialistic as many European countries, but in recent history, our government has forked out millions of tax payer dollars in the form of grants to subsidize entrepreneur interests only to have many of those companies go belly up. For example, google "Fisker Karma" and you'll see how much our country lost on this effort. Maybe they shouldn't have used the word "Karma". ha!

This is getting way off topic as usual per RL quota. Ways to clean engines(ala KK trend), Russia, Poland, EU, Indiana, Bikes, Roller Bearings, FB, etc. Suprised we haven't had unicorns and boobies yet. Someone's gotta throw some in, especially since it's Friday. Alright, time to start the betting pool on how long this thread will live for. I start with 21 pages. Also for those that are new and don't really know the history between the two rivals, you'll need to do a lot of reading to see how this ended up where it is now. Only then you may know both sides and either harbor the same feelings or have a different perspective. Feel free to PM me if you want cliff notes, it's Friday after all.

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Pete do you have experience with this shop personally? Care to share? I do not know him and hope I never have to but it's nice to know there are more rebuild options out there if needed.

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Hmmm, $529 million dollar gamble with Taxpayer dollars

MBM...............The best thing for you to do is pack your bags and move back to your better world. I have traveled areas of Central Europe and have yet to see the Promised Land you speak of. Yes, I have many friends there and they are doing their best to work hard and get here. You will NEVER!!!!! hear any of them talk about America like you have!! You sound like someone that has taken advantage of their home people and living off the fruit of THEIR hard labor........Your comments sicken me.............

I personally don't mind mb motorsports input on this thread. It is nice to see another builder and other options commenting. Regardless of if you believe his views I appreciate the additional input and information.

Quotes source post: 13435083

You have just proved your lack of knowledge my friend, in the next 5 years or so every new business will be eligible to receive EU grant for creating a work place for unemployed. They offer this program for 10 years now. Maybe u can tell me how is US helping businesses? So far I just noticed raise in taxes, fees and insurance which creates high cost of operation. All big businesses fled US a long time ago to reduce costs. If someone doesn't like great quality for a great price then they are free to buy elsewhere and slide their credit cards for 2xmore. When we remove an engine from a car it goes to a cleaning room which is tiled up to the ceiling. Then engine is power washed with hot water high pressure washer from Germany. Later it goes to the disassembly room, all clean accessories go on a separate shelf so we have a bare long block. After it's apart it gets cleaned with chemicals from residual oil, later it's washed in ultrasound cleaner. Once that is done we secure all holes and openings with custom made plugs, that takes hours. Later engine gets glass blasted, again cleaned in ultrasound cleaner 2 times, again high pressure washed in every nook and cranny. In the end it's cleaned with high pressure air to finally be inspected for another hour with magnifying glass and flashlight. That is just the cleaning part in my shop! Ultrasound cleaning is only a small part of my rebuild process, we use it after resleeving, same goes for restored heads. Show me one shop that does this here? Most only use ultrasound washer and cases and parts still look dirty.

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extinker, you forgot something! There, FIFY. You're welcome.

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I do not have any personal experience with this shop but I think I met Marty at Road America a few years back during a Chicago PCA region DE during a Memorial day weekend..not sure though. My opinion of him was formed when he opened a shop in Chicago called "Porsche Land", then was told by Porsche to change the name so he back as "Forsche Land" and has since moved from Chicago to Florida calling his business it's current name. That in itself speaks volumes of the type of ethics this guy has. Choose your poison wisely.

Martin, just a curious question but do you send unassembled engines to Poland and back? I can only imagine full long blocks or even short blocks would be pretty expensive to ship back and forth. I'm not in the shipping business so just curious on how much this shipping portion can take from the whole enchilada.

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So what? Do you know how many people do the same thing? Are u going to bring this up for another 20 years? It's getting old and you're constantly repeating yourself since you have no substantial arguments and no first hand knowledge. Time to move on Peter P. At least get your facts straight b4 u repeat something, MB Motorsports was started in Chicago, not Florida!

I feel like I'm in a Boris and Natasha cartoon.....

Btw Marty.......with all your anti-US comments......I'm wondering if you are a documented US citizen. What say you?

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So how about a photo of that gizmo

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Hey Pete, no sense in dealing the Trump card here. It also doesn't make you look good. You gotta let some things slide and not let it get the best of you. There's a lot of testosterone going on here...

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Sounds like you might have traveled to CE 20 years ago. I don't know who your friend are but my friends are very successful in Poland running their businesses, they travel to US all the time to spend money and have some fun. One of them is a World Superbike racer currently in Laguna Seca, CA for WSBK race along Moto America. My other friends come here 2-3 times per year to Miami, Vegas, California, Chicago, NY to visit and shop. It's not the same America today where everyone from communist countries wanted to come. Whenever my friends travel outside the cities they cannot believe how people live here in trailer parks and crappy sheds they call houses. They cannot believe it's America! I do not take advantage of my employees, they are very happy they work for me because they make a lot more than they'd make elsewhere. Maybe you should know that in Poland your cost of living is 4x cheaper, no property taxes, 90% of Polish people own their houses unlike here where 90% is bank owned. Every day Americans have to go to work to make their mortgage payment, if you don't you end up on the street.

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Voice of reason.......I don't care how it comes off but I do need to get to work...the combo of Friday's and RL are hell

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Same here. It also appears a couple customers from both camps may have to wait a few more days as this thread is occupying some of their rebuild time.

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Yes, go to work because you have your cc payments to pay off for that expensive engine FYI, I'm proud to be Polish and I have a 20 year green card. I could have become American citizen 5 years ago but I didn't simply because I'm Polish and I'll die as a Polish citizen. When I race I represent Polish flag because I'm proud of it. My customers are from all over the world, it doesn't really matter where I live. I didn't come here as to promised land, my main reason was racing. I brought $300k in 2006 and didn't have to work for anyone. I've never worked for anyone my whole life. If you think I'm a poor illegal polish immigrant coming to America you have the wrong idea. I'm used to that because most non immigrant Americans are the same way, nothing new. It only shows their simplicity and ignorance. I don't blame you because in college you learn what we have learned in elementary school. In American elementary schools they don't teach % so you don't know how to calculate your bank interest later. Good luck Peter, I'm not going to make any more comments.

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Please explain why so many well-to-do families throughout the world (especially Europe) seek to send their children to prestigious universities in the US? What a waste of time and money...just to re-learn what they've learned so many years ago...and at a cost of $50K/yr. -Eric

Guys, I think we need to stick with engine talk. There's other forums to discuss politics, finance and such. We don't need to blow the embers here and make it bigger than they are for something that doesn't really relate to Porsches.

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Thank GOD! Now we can get back to a constructive conversation instead of a juvenile pissing match. This was a really interesting thread. Have we lost the OP?

Pretty much. Every thread I make here devolves into useless bickering. Thanks for the help. Bye

Hydrolaw, good luck deciding what to do. FWIW, I can tell you that an LN Nickies 3.8 block in a 996 is a really spectacular ride.

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We have about 30-40 cores in Poland waiting in line to be rebuilt. When I get a core from US I ship it via ocean because I'm not in a hurry. I have a good shipper in Bensenville, they have great deals so if you ever need to ship anything to Europe on a ship let me know I can put you in touch with them. They ship 100's of motorcycles, old classic, luxury cars and lots of my Porsche's. When I ship a container with Porsches and load up a few more engines my cost for engine is zero. Shipping from Poland (door to door) to customer in US via UPS Air Freight is not that expensive, average is $650-700 for one engine, takes 1-2 weeks depending on customs. Cost excludes customs and brokerage fees which are about $300 more. Customs fees are supposed to be eliminated because they r working on an agreement to eliminate US-Europe import/export fees. Preliminary agreements have already been signed. Good for me because my shipping costs will go down. Below are pics from that warehouse from last week, I dropped off a few engines and my Porsche on my way to Road America in Wi.

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Not here. Why? Because I have shut this facility down for the entire week of Independence Day every, year since 1998. My schedule takes this week into consideration, so we never get behind. I feel that it's a patriotic way to pledge allegiance to our country, and our flag. All of us can spend time with our families to celebrate the freedoms That we are blessed with, as Americans. We are unapologetic Americans, and still believe this is the best country in the World. I'm a proud Marine, and below you'll see my daily driver for this entire week. That said, I am taking the time off to finish a 996TT engine. Setting cam timing today, I'll be done in a couple of days.. Didn't have to ship it anywhere for assembly, 100% of every process this one saw happened under this single roof. It's filled with our own components. Look how nasty this thing is. I apologize for the clutter, I didn't have time to stage my photos.

My ancestry is probably from Poland, prior to Lithuania. So, Martin may well be my cousin or something,

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Sweet ride! LOL, "clutter."

One last post off topic, referring to the quality of Polish work. Here r pictures of hand made all steel chassis replica of 1935 Mercedes' Benz 540K and Bugatti. One chassis takes a whole year to make, all by hands of only one guy. Perfect copy of a multiple million dollar car. I have those for sale if anyone is interested let me know.

Nice work Jake, looks very impressive. How come your m96/7 engines don't look like this one? Charging a fortune to rebuild them but they don't get as much attention as this one.

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In typical fashion, this conversation has devolved into name-calling and childish prattle.

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I'll have to remember that if I can ever find and afford a good Lancia Delta Integrale Evo III over there. I know a guy close to Road America that has two of them but won't sell them.

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This was what 3-4 posts ago? Like all attention ****** you just can't help it. Hydro, sorry this went South. I'm out.

Jake, one more thing. I like your ride, it's pretty cool Hope you know and remember that among other things thanks to my fellow countryman Casimir Pulaski you can celebrate American Independence today. Here's a link in case you want to read about him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_Pulaski .

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Martin, Pulaski is honored in our town of Athens Ga. We named a street after him and there is a memorial in Savannah (where he died in battle) to commemorate his devotion to America and independence. I'm sure there are many others.

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Thank you. I'll keep them in mind.

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What an interesting thread to say the least.... It’s unfortunate you have experienced another bearing failure, don’t know what I would do if I was in your place. But what I have learned from owning a 911 and being on the forums for a while now, there’s always a “ultimate” solution. The bearing fix is the most over hyped issue with the 996 and in order for the “ultimate” solution to not fail, your engine has to be healthy (rebuilt condition like)? Why even bother replacing the bearing if the engine is already healthy? There are some 996s out there running on the original bearing and to apply the “ultimate” bearing to a healthy engine, is it really a solution or an overpriced “solution”. I believe in preventative maintenance on Porsches, but this thread just made me rethink the bearing issue. Also to have only one expert on the 996 engine on the board, is pretty much like Microsoft OS being on my laptop, I wish I had more choices to an OS.

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The entire idea of an elective IMSB retrofit is to retain engine integrity and keep it "perfect". The point that people are missing (because they are haphazardly reading posts) is the fact that other engine issues outside the IMSB can kill a retrofit bearing, and ultimately the rest of the engine. As a developer of the procedures and the components it was always our goal to make sure people did not waste money on engines that have other issues. Spending the required money on a retrofit only to have something else kill the bearing, and ultimately the engine makes no sense. That said our Certified Installer in Texas found the below in the oil sump of a perfectly running 996 on Tuesday. It was in his shop for an IMS Solition retrofit. Had this engine not been pre- qualified and then retrofitted, it would have been a total and complete waste. What you see here is what's left of the IMS tensioner paddle wear pad. Given a few thousand more miles the wear pad will fall off the tensioner paddle and will create metal contact with the tensioner paddle. This will wear the paddle thin, dumping a ton of material in the oil, then taking out the new bearing..... IF it makes it long enough the tensioner will jamb against the paddle and snap it in half, this losing Valve timing on both banks and becoming a cataclysmic failure that effects components engine wide. Given time, this WILL happen. It's mode of failure #16 of 29. Why is this so hard to understand? Why do people have a hard time with reality? I forgot, it's 2016. This engine was disqualified and was put back together and given back to the owner. The engine number was annotated, so when the car goes to another shop that does not have to live up to a code of conduct to be retrofitted, they'll not be able to blame the new bearing when it fails. It's easier to be a victim than a failure.

Well, I talked to Jake, and he laid out exactly what he believes to be going on, and I agree with him completely. In all likelihood the bearing experienced premature failure due to being jammed in a shaft that had shrunk in size due to the previous failure. We have went over a protocol for testing the car and analyzing my oil when I get it back. He has been a huge help, and, moreover he has not came into my thread simply to sling **** and derail things. I am most appreciative. If the worst case scenario comes to pass, I'm likely going to take some direction from him and replace the shaft and bearing myself. At any rate, thanks for the help, guys.

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Good to hear you have a path to follow. Some people have fault Jake in the past for his presentation (though he seems to be much calmer this year in that regard), but you are experiencing the key reason so many of us side with him so strongly. He always seems willing to help people out even when there is no chance of money going to his pocket for his effort. Jake is definitely good people!

I think hydrolaw can fix this himself if need be... I told him that some things in the imminent future will help him do this. I finally learned after being on forums for over 17 years that I needed to care a little less, and say a little less. Doing more, and saying more just creates problems with those who do not share my level of intensity. People have changed, and the way they expect communication to occur have changed with them... I've never changed, and I grew up old school, and was taught that the only way around a problem was straight through the middle of it. My dad always told me that for as long as I can remember. I still fight the urge to say some things, and I often write a post and delete it rather than posting it. At the end of the day I belong in my clean room, or on the dyno. I don't belong in these engagements, but I want to share what we've learned, so I do what I can. I should take advantage of our sponsorship of the forums more, (by making promotional threads) but I don't make those types of posts because I'm unsure of the outcome, and don't want to start another war. It's like tattooing a target on your back. That said, people understand me better today than they did a year ago, which has taken major effort on my part. glad that it's been working.

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Great news, Jake is a great contributor for sure

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Classy guy - what a way to make friends...

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Glad you are getting to live the American Dream...

"I finally learned .... that I needed to care a little less, and say a little less. ....saying more just creates problems with those who do not share my level of intensity. .. I still fight the urge to say some things, and I often write a post and delete it rather than posting it " Just imagine how many nuggets of information and ideas are lost because we tolerate hostile,argumentative Posters who shout down those with wisdom to share . Even the First Amendment but that has limits and exceptions.

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No one here could even imagine what's lost due to this. I have written posts two pages long that were technically rich, but upon reviewing the post I just copied the info for an Advanced Technical Directive and gave it to a parts company that I provide tech support to. If people would police each other better, and slap down the attempts of those who try to cause trouble, it would be a different story. Where's a "blanket party" when you need one? LOL! Welcome to 2016... When these forums (not just RL) were new people begged for real, first hand info... That's what no one had. Today, the people that have that info are shunned and considered sales people. Even when they have nothing to sell that's related to the post.

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Unfortunately this forum as well as every other forum I visit is plagued with Internet engineers. I find this particular forum pretty stale for much tech. 6 speed and renn tech are far better if you want an answer to a serious question. I generally come here just to read your posts and little else. The typical banter on here from the same few is worthless.

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Ain't that the truth. You don't know me, Jake, but I remember your name from some forum I can't even remember back in 2001 or so when I had my type four-engined 912. Fifteen years later and you're still helping people out. OP, sorry for taking your thread further off topic. Hope you find a path to getting your car back on the road.

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Yep, thats me... I never learn any better! I had my own forums for about 10 years, and it was a pain.. Let that go in 2013. I should post more on Renntech, but I don't..

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You mean like ones that design and build their own IMSB from household items?

/ Closed Facebook group? Yes, I don't even have a FB account (uses my wife's) but this is the most effective way to limit membership. Kiwi Rennlisters have one because some government official read one of the posts, and posted a letter to the poster advising him that what he was going to do with his license plate was illegal.

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There weren't enough sheep to keep him "entertained"?

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Geeez, this thread is rapidly going south. Just so you know, we no longer have sheep in offices :-)

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I have considered a secret FB group... That's one step past a closed group, because it can't even be found with a search.

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I don't get this at all. I mean it's your knowledge and you have every right to withhold it, but why on earth would you care what idiots and haters have to say? There are far more people reading this that respect, appreciate and admire you for the information you share. Isn't that more important than the people you care about the least. The only way the idiots win is if they cause you to alter what you post.

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I'll send you an article and you can post it as yours. Then you'll see exactly the things that I face, but I get it 10X more because "I'm a vendor" with something to sell people (or so they think). The issue is, the people who appreciate it stay silent when they should not. When the haters arrive those who appreciate the article, don;t appreciate it enough to come out of the shadows and shut down the hater keyboard warrior down. If they'd have the testicular fortitude, or care to speak up, then the haters would STFU and all would be better in short order. That doesn't happen. One idiot ruins it all. Then I lose half of a day of focus dealing with the clown, when I should be wrenching. Its not worth it, especially when I'm giving the info away. There's nothing worse than being challenged by someone about a deeply technical engine topic who does;t even change his own oil, and sometimes can't! They read things on one forum, re- process it in their own twisted way, then when what they read doesn't agree, they speak up like an expert. Thats to be expected, everyone is an expert in 2016, because they have Google. The difference is, they don;t have dirty hands, or busted knuckles. This is the reason why I did not "author" the 996 Torque Spec guide, and the same for my 996 assembly guide, which is finished, but I have not decided what to do with. Ok, back to 996TT cam timing, I hope to have cam covers on by the time the first Rooster crows tomorrow morning...

+1 on Slakker's points - also if one responds to the haters, they've actually won regardless whether one did win the 'argument' after 1 or 10 thousand posts later. I'm here to learn, like most of the others, and the more things being discussed (properly - no need for name calling or the Poland/America love/hate thing), the better. Geez, now where is my sheep.....

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Deal! And I know that someone saying you are just trying to sell something is probably the absolute worst insult they can give you. But you have to take into consideration that the majority of people have no idea what you are talking about. I mean they understand it on the surface, but they have no idea the amount of knowledge, experience, data and failure that is the basis for what you are saying. They argue or even lash out because they think they are standing on solid ground but they have no way to fathom how little they truly know. There are also some that have a clue, but just don't share your passion for these engines and therefore don't understand your reasoning. You should research the "Curse of Knowledge." It may help you understand that sometimes it isn't really a battlefront, it's just a very large communication gap. That being said, I for one appreciate the hell out of the value you add to this forum and will never hesitate to jump in and lend a little help when the fight is on. And no, none of this applies to the Martins of the world. He would have learned a little more respect if he was raised in this household, one way or another.

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I disagree. Most all of us can spot the dopes, idiots, and morons pretty quickly. Why even bother to respond to them?

I'm new to this forum, and to water cooled Porsches. I must admit, I am a little sad to read that some turkeys who have nothing positive to add have hijacked the conversatation. Jake, I'm very happy that you are around, have just had the Solution installed and it allows me to breathe easy and really enjoy my new toy. Please don't let these morons ruin what you have to offer. Keep doing what you do, we really appreciate it.

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Thats the very root of the problem, and why they can get away with acting the way that they do. Other people won't lock them on. You'll notice in the last few weeks that I have been ignoring these people more and more, and in the case of this thread, even though I wanted like hell to counter the lies spread by someone about my work, and post pictures to counter said lies, I refrained. Getting back on track, hydrolaw has some decisions to make, and it all starts with a few hundred miles and some used oil analysis, which he will be getting for free, since he's buying his Joe Gibbs Driven Oil from www.rndeuroparts.com

I totally agree with what has been said in the above four or five posts. There will always be "internet experts" who think if they have an opinion and a keyboard they are experts. There will also be those who cannot accept that other people who have similar products as theirs, are of value. Many of those think that if they can make the other product look bad it makes their stuff look better. In my opinion, that tactic does not work it only makes the degrader look petty and insecure. It also makes me not want to do business with them. I appreciate Jake sharing information and that he doesn't get down in the dirt with the detractors. Defending one's theories and product is ok, when done properly, which Jake does. I agree: ignore-ignore-ignore. Not always easy but why waste time on a never-ending battle? "WE" know whats going on!

I need to add...I have no vested interest nor major components from Flat6. My opinions, which are my own, have been formed by watching, reading and listening.

Ignore works for me. I have to say that having Jake (and Charles) as objective sounding boards helped me through a tremendous mess with a local dealership earlier this year. Their knowledge and professionalism gave me the facts and knowledge I needed to determine my car was fine as well as get some of my money back. Keep up the good fight guys, those of us that appreciate hard found knowledge will support you!

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Can't wait to get this process started.

Also, I don't see an option for 0w40. Should I get the 5w40?

Hydro: Not sure exactly what Jake has you doing but Joe Gibbs DT40 is 5w40. I went through figuring out this fact this spring when switching from Mobil 1. BTW my car loves the DT40!

This thread needs KK

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Dang, I didn't realise this was a thing - just bought mine elsewhere. Ah well, next time.

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Sure they do. Just check out the Starbucks thread. For the most part, the more you ignore someone who's a dope, the less "power" they have. The more you engage them, in any manner, the more power you give them.

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DT40 has always been a 5-40 viscosity. Always will be.

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Or the nitrous thread! UOA with Dt40 purchase is a cool deal. Thanks for the heads up Jake.

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Sorry, I meant the free UOA!

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The UOA is handled by The Knowledge Gruppe, so the analyst providing the results will be Lake Speed Jr, who heads up the Driven Oil program. Lake is a member of The Knowledge Gruppe. With all Porsche UOA Lake and I work together to offer the commentary for the results.

Whilst picking up my early 'problematic' 3.4 double row which had an alternative brand bearing 'fix' and in fact the oem bearing was found to be perfect...I noticed a 997 'bulletproof' turbo with a blown engine, here is its engine with loads of debris, proves we worry too much, It can happen to any car.....

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What would have to be done for this customers car to be qualified? Complete rebuild?

yeah i was thinking the same!! this is a forum not a vendors show. this bearing fix is not rocket science, its also well overpriced in my opinion relative to the value of our cars, the price of the tools /ounce is $$$$ these are old cars, and anything can go wrong in the engines, due to wear and tear. i was going to try the LN but nobody fits it here in HK, i ended up with getting the EPS, which a garage my friend recommended is more familiar with. The garage said he didn't have any blown engines from the ims but mainly preventative installations, from anxious internet forum guys, like me .

Soooooooooo, as a synopsis: 1) The IMSB Solution is never the cause of engine failure; 2) IF any IMSB failure occurs (regardless of bearing type used), it is likely that: 2.A) your car had "bad genes" to begin with, and this never can be overcome -- you might as well get a new car with a new car warranty; or.... 2.B) you did not have a properly certified and credentialed PhD mechanic who had monthly continuing education and validation, and who had a current Top Secret Krypto background security check, who used a microscope and nano-manipulators, in a micro-sterile room with positive ventilation, and following EPA/OSHA guidelines and IRS Tax Code, overseen by the GAO,... AND... 2.B)i) the engine was completely disassembled, dipped in dilute acid then neutralized, with all passages blown out and inspected by Anthrax-lab-qualified inspectors using thin borescopes and recording the entire inspection... AND... 2.B)ii) using all new, Porsche-factory replacement parts, flown directly from Stuttgart (NO! you cannot have parts that have been sitting on the shelf for 5 years, not only because of the dust and fingerprints, but because they might have been "an old version which did not incorporate the latest improvements"... AND... 2.B)iii) after the engine is reassembled, it must be sent to an independent, and fully current and certified shop for complete disassembly to verify that all proper parts and procedures were followed... AND... 2.B)iv) MAKE SURE YOU USE THE RIGHT OIL (sorry, we are not going to tell you which is the correct oil -- we'll let you know IF your engine fails) AND... 2.B)v) and MAKE SURE that you follow the correct break-in protocol (again, sorry, we'll let you know if proper procedure was followed only IF and WHEN your engine fails) AND... It seems that we cannot guarantee your engine will last over a few thousand miles -- over 7000 miles if you were part of the KK dogpile from a few months ago, but under 10K miles if you are the OP's Porsche dealership. So, the length of the guarantee will be subject to litigation, and therefore the strength of your attorneys (directly proportional to the amount of $$ you can invest in them). Certainly I have left off a few other details regarding IMSB protocol. I think we can inch out IRS's Tax Code volume if we put a couple more lawyers on this. Happy thoughts, everybody.

lol

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Yup...that pretty much sums it up. Well done!

Two points of clarification: -There's never been a single report of an IMS Solution product failing, not even as collateral damage from some other failure. Not once. -The product that is the topic of this threads was NOT an IMS Solution.

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I bought an original IMSB C2 with no signs of a leaking RMS and a smooth-running engine. Took it to a certified IMS Solution tech, John. He confirmed the banks were aligned perfectly, no debris, corrected a minor oil cooler leak and installed the IMS solution. Of course, I had the luck of buying after the IMSS was both on the market and starting to be copied, so the choice was easy. Definitely feel for the guys that bought ball bearing retrofits, but you can always upgrade to the IMSS and be done with it. No shame in learning and moving forward. From my perspective nobody in this forum or in real life has the acumen to match Jake. His logic checks out and I'm thankful to have joined this forum. Find it odd that the one who contributes more than anyone on 996 engine analysis gets nagged for being tenacious on problems. If you've read what he's written previously you'd know the ball bearing concept as a whole is flawed and not recommended given available alternative(s). This isn't news. For the record my local Porsche dealership's PPI missed the oil cooler leak and they didn't know what the IMSS is (despite selling ceramic LN bearings).

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Strange, got an error when trying to view that post. I think one of the key points is that ball bearings fail. They wear and they need to be replaced. People act like this a major revelation but take it for granted with other parts. If a wheel bearing failure caused significant damage, nobody would blink an eye about replacing them every 5 years. Something about the term IMS makes people stupid and illogical. It's a really strange phenomenon. The IMS solution eliminates the part that wears out, the ball bearing. Therefore, it lasts. Let's try not to over complicate this too much.

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LOL! In all fairness to all of the IMSB replacement inventors, providers and installers. No matter how good their product is, they cannot undo the damage that was started in your engine without a full disassembly, cleaning and reassembly with replacement parts as required. I am not fond of the idea of replacing parts that might fail, especially if you basically cannot replace them once, or rather if, they start to fail. That is why I like the idea of leaving your dual-rows alone but replacing the small-single-rows. 8% is just plain too high a failure rate. All dynamic systems tend toward homeostasis. Why upset that to replace something that is in all probability not going to fail? You stand a far better chance of introducing problems than just leaving well enough alone. Once a bearing starts to go you have a crap shoot on your hands if you don't tear it down. You may replace the bearing and have no more problems but you have some metal floating around in your engine just looking for something to take out. The one thing that makes me the most uncomfortable in that situation is the open bearing design. I wish there was an IMS Retrofit Pro sealed bearing available for this situation as the open bearing relies on a very clean engine and one with a partially-failed bearing is not clean. It still may fail but it at least gives the owner a fighting chance at saving his motor without the expense of a full disassembly/reassembly. I don't know enough about the IMS Solution but I assume the pressure feed is from the clean side of the filter so it actually could be THE answer in this situation but of course it wouldn't be warrantied and no Certified Installer would touch the installation. Failed chain guides? Well, until somebody comes up with a way to replace the pads in-situ, disassembly/reassembly is the only option. I bet most of these are caused by poor oil change habits early in the car's life.

Cars this old shouldnt be able run or drive well, let alone go to the redline! Now we all know that the ims problem can be solved, lets hope that the values of the 996 go up!! I enjoy my 996 better than my lambo!

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Exactly, I cringe reading comments on BaT to the tune of "well you got an IMS retrofit so that's taken care of...." Not really, but you can live like that for a while before reality sets you straight (maybe).. Not going to interject unless it's my business though, people will eventually learn. It just may take another decade.

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No I think the IMS has been overhyped much like the studs issues that the air cooled 911s had. The problem is too many people have been led to believe that aftermarket IMS bearings are the complete solution to the issue when Jake has clearly shown that steps have to be taken for an aftermarket IMS bearing to not fail. Even then its still a wear part, if one gets the aftermarket roller bearing. You see it all the time people posting 996s for sale when they state "IMS" taking care of, drive carefree.

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Man I wish we had better data on this. I think it's become apparent that a lot of the IMSB failures were the symptom not the problem. They seem to fail as a result of other issues and take all the blame. Jake appears to have over/redesigned it so that it can withstand other parts of the system failing and that's the only way to truly solve that problem. But what percentage of the engines truly failed because the IMSB went bad? There is just no way to run any type of risk analysis without that information. I think the 1% and 8% numbers are total BS and represent a skewed version of a fixed point in time thats relevancy has long since passed. Maybe Jakes upcoming "opus release" will not only have a # for each failure, but an approximate % of total failures he's seen that the number represents. Now that would be empowering information!

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IMS Solution not a wear part. You're making a statement and not really addressing the why or presenting data. Retrofit = wear part. Solution = permanent fix. Depending on the sale post it may or may not be true, so true buyer beware there, agreed.

agreed, thanks to all the bearing makers for making solutions to 1. prevent an ims problem 2. make 996 prices more stable however it would help if the problem isn't magnified so much or 996 prices will remain forever on the floor

Not a chance in hell. The numbers don't matter to my efforts. I spend time fixing problems, not worrying about how many have already failed.

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Why? Would you rather the 996 prices get so inflated that we can't drive our cars or afford a new one if it 'splodes?

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You also spend a lot of time preventing problems before they occur. You see the failures everyday and know which ones are most prevalent and need the most attention towards solving and preventing. You are also kind enough to share your conclusions with us. You don't have to and it's greatly appreciated. But you can't blame us for being curious about the single best collection of data on M96 engine failure in the world. Can you?

FYI- The act of IMS Bearing replacement following the procedure that I developed is referred to as "IMS Retrofit". So, any time the LN products are being utilized, an "IMS Retrofit" is being carried out, no matter if the bearing technology thats chosen is a Classic Single or Dual Row, Single Row Pro or the IMS Solution. All of these are "IMS Retrofit" procedures.

You guys are all living in the past. The flavor of the moment is IMS Paddles and Chain Guides. Pretty soon future sellers gonna have to provide disclaimer that their car has had IMS Solution, LTT, DT-40, IMS paddles, Chain guides, oil adapter, new nikasil sleeves, proactive wp, cam deviation settings, pic of oil pan, etc. just to be marketable to the masses that buy into internet hype.

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I'm good to go then

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I would say you're even better off since you, Ahsai, and a handful of others actually have documented everything, leaving little to no doubt on anything that's been done.

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Well what the hell else are we going to talk about, baseball? How is everything you just mentioned any different than all of the upgrades, maintenance and options for the suspension. It's all just choices. And like most subjects that are technical in nature, the masses will have no idea what any of it means or what the true implications are anyway. That's why man created buzzwords so that the uninformed can feel like they are making wise decisions.

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Simple, one is driven by fear, the others are not. I can sell you turd if I could make you believe that eating it will extend your life by 100 years if I instilled enough fear in you. Remember, fear can sell anything.

Ha, some of the health stuff I've eaten recently tasted like turd. You don't think they really did do you? Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. It's still one of the best sales tools in the game.

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My theory is that we all ate $hit and maybe other things at some point in our lives. I mean how many times have we eaten out? Statistically, I would think that we would've encountered at least one disgruntled employee that either $hit/pissed/or came in some of the foods they were preparing in our lifetime. LOL Okay this has gotten way off tangent.

Yep, blew right across that line and didn't even tap the brakes. Reading while sitting down for lunch of course. Lol.

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When did I say anything the IMS "solution" fix when I am talking about how some think that the aftermarket bearings are the "solution" to the issue.. 2 different fixes

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Right - the basic conversation is still very much in the "have you had it done" camp vs. "which bearing was installed, etc" Nuance that should be discussed, like the remaining change intervals for ceramic retrofits (as an example), is often glossed over. Maybe I just misinterpreted your post. Nice aero