Why Jack Baruth should be fired from R&T

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ws&date=060617 res ipsa loquitur For what it's worth, I'm not so naive as to believe our 996es are going to skyrocket in value overnight or any time soon, and I don't think our cars are perfect, but I think Jack's clear hatred of the 996 (evident from the language he uses to describe various aspects of the car) has fueled his opinion far more than logic. Would I advise someone to invest in a 996 as a collectible? No, but only because it isn't collectible today and I don't think it's on the cusp of becoming collectible. Feel free to disagree, flame, whatever. I don't have the time or patience to tear apart his argument but, suffice it to say, it's not a surprise he didn't learn anything from his failed prognostication about the future of the 914. -Eric

The argument that there are too many 996's - which actually IS a good argument - soon falls away, and the author's real argument, "the air-cooled cars have character that no modern car has," floats to the surface like a carbonated turd hatched after a night of binge drinking. He vacillates back and forth between "not good" and "not rare" so much that they seem to be interchangeable. In fact, they ARE - but only to someone who is intentionally blind to what is good about the 996-era cars. If the article was "Why I will always hate the 996-Generation 911," it would have been more accurate...but I probably wouldn't have bothered reading it. There are people who think the 996 is a diamond waiting to be discovered. Some of us love the car and don't care what "car people" think. And then there are people who will insist that it is inferior in every way. The 996 is faster. "Well, yes, but the air-cooled car FEELS faster." The 996 is INSANE value for what you'll pay for one. "Yeah, but the engine might fail, and then your cheap car will cost you a little more, but still less than if you'd bought my car." *crosses arms and looks confident even though that one didn't even make sense* The 996 is lighter. "Well, it wouldn't have been if they'd used better materials in the cabin! Like palm fronds and dirt. Those are CLASSIC interior materials!"

I'm not quite clear on something in that article. Does he think the 996 will never be rare? Guy is definitely one of the "not a real Porsche" ilk. Fvck him and the lawnmower he rode in on. His opinion is just that and everyone has one. Contrary to the hysteria and hyperbole that people like him fling about like monkeys flinging poo, the 996 has proven itself to A) be a real 911, B) be a generally good car, and C) be a damn good car for the money.

Rennlist really needs a like button for posts. Even the argument that there are "too many" starts to break down when it comes to models like the Targa or C4S which were produced in smaller numbers. Regardless, to your point, I think the real basis for his argument is that he hates the 996 and it should, therefore, never be collectible. If difficulty of servicing the engine was the basis for whether a car would be collectible, nobody would ever collect any Ferrari. For that matter, if reliability was a paramount factor, nobody would ever collect ANY Italian car. His argument is so flawed, I don't know where to begin. -Eric

I've always been a fan of the aircooled cars and when the 996 came out I turned my nose up. I had a friend who sold his 3.2 for a brand new 996 in 1999 and I thought he was insane. He gave me a ride and I remember thinking, "hmm this isn't so bad." That's where my opinion stuck for almost 20 years until I had a chance to drive one for myself a couple months ago. It was a 2001 with about 90k miles and in pretty good shape. Not perfect, but a nice driver. It immediately felt like a 911 only different. Light on its feet and heavy rear end? Yes, but just a little less rear-end feel (fear?). Engine growl and transmission whine? Yes, but just a little bit more muted. Entertaining acceleration and handling? Yes! I still prefer my 993, but not by a huge margin. If it wasn't for engine-fear I think they'd be worth a lot more money. They look good, they drive extremely well, they have great 911 character and are all around fun. If you own one and its taking good care of you, count yourself lucky to be getting such a great 911 experience for such a great price. Every time I see a 996, I stop and stare just like any other 911. It doesn't seem 'lesser' to me in any way other than the reliability fears that have popped up and clearly can be addressed if you do your homework

As one who owns both a 993S and a 996, he's clearly just spouting biased automotive drivel designed to raise the ire of 996 owners. Who cares what he thinks, even if a couple of his points are probably true. I don't care about the 996 faults (fixable) or its value as I didn't buy the 993 or the 996 as investments. I picked up a recent R&T issue recently waiting in the dentists office and was reminded why I stopped subscribing many years ago.

Here's a counterpoint: An old neighbor of mine is having to sell his 993 because he is unable to get in and out (he has tremors that are getting worse with age). While I will help him find a buyer, I was a bit surprised that I have NO interest in selling my 996 and using the proceeds to help buy the 993. Sure, I've never considered it before, but at the point he's willing to sell his car at a $10K+ markdown to me, it's enjoyable to realize that I wouldn't dump my 996 to fund the purchase of a "better" 911. Maybe that's the key - when I consider the two cars, the 996 is the winner. I can see the criteria that other people are using, and when you use those, sure, the older cars rate highly. I wouldn't change this if I could - why would I want to be obsessed with the rare, expensive 911? I quite enjoy liking a car I already own. When he does decide to put the car up, I'll be posting it on RL for him. He's hoping to find a "forever" home for the car...and I don't need the money enough to be willing to lie about holding it vs. flipping it.

Pretty sure he just contradicted himself by saying the 914 was not a real Porsche and a horrible car that nobody wanted, but then goes on to say how it appreciated 15 fold in value while in the same breath says the 996 won't appreciate as it's a horrible car that nobody wants... What people consider fugly now may be considered unique and highly sought after in the future. "Fried eggs" or GT1 lights..... The perception will dictate value.

Only the hottest of hot takes. Zig when everyone else zags, gotta do it for the clicks.

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And one that you can not give a damn about putting miles on. Honestly I'm glad I didn't pick up my friend's 97 Targa when she sold it. I firmly believe in "it's just a damn car! drive it!", but I think even I would be cringing regularly about A) driving it and B) not having a garage to park it in.

If all these 996's continue to grenade due to IMSB failures, they will indeed be rare and worth a pretty penny. Although undriveable under the circumstances. Based on the first page of the 996 Forum, that is clearly happening as we speak...

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I have a 993 and I put the miles on it. Its made to be driven and driven is what it gets. I'd rather have a meticulously cared for driver vs. a garage queen I can't enjoy and which is hiding component failures due to age not miles. In other words, both the 993 and the 996 should be driven to keep them mechanically happy AND to provide value to their owners.

How does the saying go? Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one. This was just a tad bit harsh IMHO: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ws&date=060617

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...m-r-and-t.html Not that I don't want to respond here. lol -Eric

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I absolutely agree. You may be able to search my history to find more detailed tirades on the subject, but the short story is that the best I could offer her was $25k at a time when they were already $35-40k. So I didn't insult her with such an offer. I then found out that she sold it to her Indy who was the only one to ever touch it since she picked it up in 98. They gave her a whopping $20k and immediately had it on their website for $40k. It lasted 3 days. Comparable cars seem to be in the 60-70k range now. That would have been a value jump in a short enough time that even I couldn't ignore...

I thought this forum was about Porsches, not Ferraris...

LOL.... didn't see that. Thanks

Interesting opinion based article posted today on Road & Track Online. Anyone else read? I bought my car, not for resale, but because its one hell of a car for under 30K and I actually like the headlights http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...e-collectible/

I think the guy is just an idiot who doesn't get it. The new trend in popular car review stuff is to be derogatory about something while still being amusing, aka Jeremy Clarkson/Doug Demuro, etc. doing that is an art form that not many have, and when you don't have it, you come of mean. He is just trying to stay relevant in these changing times and he doesn't know how. As an aside, besides being mean I think he is an idiot. He started talking about how the 914 was a worthless piece of crap that would never be worth anything and makes it sound like his friend got robbed. The fact is that is what the market decided the price is the cars is. He can deny facts l day long, but that does not change them.

3 of the same thread on the same page? Really?

Didn't see the other 2 post... I'll defer to: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...m-r-and-t.html

Yup, everything he wrote is true. 996s suck and no one should consider buying one. I hope the values tank. And when they do, I'll buy more. These cars are a blast to drive, and fun to look at. Haters gonna' hate, and those that love to drive will continue to love driving 996s.

Interesting opinion based article posted today on Road & Track Online. Anyone else read? I bought my car, not for resale, but because its one hell of a car for under 30K and I actually like the headlights

No, nobody noticed it. What did it say? I don't have the Internet, but if you can print it out and mail it to me, I will scan it and read it on my phone. Sorry, I was just trying to come across as clueless and technologically stunted as Baruth does in that column. You know the moment when you realize someone has jumped the shark and they've gone from astute, interesting writer to cantankerous, ill-tempered old man? Once that happens to you, start writing articles based solely on your unsubstantiated and woefully outdated opinions. Rock on, Jack. Chrome bumpers are still BOSS, faux plastic paneling on wagons is totally square, daddy-oh, and your air-cooled 911 is tearing up the pea patch. It really IS the cat's pajamas. (At this point, I have depleted my supply of old-white-guy figures of speech. Please feel free to add your own awkward-without-being-endearing idioms, metaphors, and only-remotely-clever repartee.) The guy is younger than I am (by a year), but clearly has a handle on the "how to be an old man with a fixed and likely warped worldview" thing.

I generally like the articles that Jack B. writes. Of course, like most of his writing, this article on the 996 is just a little over the top. Classic made-for-internet exaggeration on steroids. And, if you read carefully, he clearly states that he was wrong... very wrong, on the 914: "The market didn’t pay any attention to me, and pretty soon any 914 was worth serious money." So, take his words in the context they are written. He could be just as wrong with the 996. That said, in the end, the value of the 996 is low because many people think exactly these same thoughts. And most of us (who bought our cars used) benefited greatly from the conventional thinking as we spent far less than would have been necessary for a 993 or a 997. Will our cars appreciate? Recent price trends tell us that is fairly likely. Will prices skyrocket like has been described of the 993 market? I'm not so sure. But then, I don't think anyone would really have predicted the rapid increase in 993 prices anyway. In the meantime, it is to us... owners of the 996... to educate the world, enjoy our cars, and wait to see what happens. At the very least, with a 15 year old car (or so), we should expect a fairly steady resale market. So long as we can avoid "the big repair," we will probably not suffer too much financially. So... get out there and drive!

Merging the two threads on Jack Baruth's 996 R&T article.

Like many 996 owners I am thankful for the issues the car had over the years only because it is the only way I could afford to own one and a daily driver. I have never driven one of the air cooled cars and I bet they are awesome, but I love my car and despite the headlights it is a great looking car! And I definitely didn't buy it as a collector.

When I was first interested in 911's, I thought about a 912 - you know, because they were the "poor man's 911." But I thought, "damn, those are ugly and gutless. Who wants one of those?" Oops. I went out with a buddy to look at some 914's a few years back. You know, the "poor man's Porsche?" He picked one up for about $6K (a California 914 with NO frame rust, but it needs new paint and some window seals. The stock battery tray is rust-free!); I said, "damn, those are ugly and gutless. Who wants one of those? Damn. So the next two times I had opportunities to buy Porsches - one was my 986, the other my 996, called the poor man's Porsche and 911, respectively - I was going to buy and enjoy them, even if some thought they were slow and ugly. Neither was; neither is. I still maintain that my ONLY regret between the 986 and 996 was selling the former when I acquired the latter.

This ne�er-do-well�s article is a blessing in disguise. If I were a car journalist with a deadline and no ideas I would have done the same thing. Find a car with a controversial history, take a nebulous stand that contradicts reality and write an article about it. In the 996�s history, there�s no better time for journalists to write an attention grabbing article than by reading and taking notes about the oldest and longest lasting Rennlist posts, there�s your material. His timing is perfect as a provocateur and notice there�s no comment section at the bottom of the article? If you read closely he has done nothing more than rehash what has been overblown and exaggerated, made unequal comparisons and pronouncements, and he�s about a year late on his stats and dollar amounts. Contrary to his reality, 996 values have been going up and there are now permanent cures for the IMSB and RMS and criticism about the fried egg headlight are an aesthetic dead end. Ultimately, I believe the impact this article�s reach will be to keep weak kneed �outsiders� from joining this club and let those who know continue enjoying this steal of a car for a little bit longer before it significantly starts jumping in value. Jack I have some ideas for future articles. Look into the BMW M4, M5, Mercedes S series AMG, or any Ferrari. That should keep you busy for at least a month!

I read the article today and didn't think it was so off base. It clearly mentions the 996 being a great bargain, just not something that's likely to skyrocket in value. I agree with the reasoning behind both points. Sure he's a little fast and loose with the slights, but that's to be expected in this context. I bought my 996 for driving appreciation, not financial appreciation.

There is a plethora of used parts online. There's a definitely sustainable hit to the production numbers built by cars that have fallen into wrong hands. How many is out there, how many 996 cars is there left in the US. Tens of thousands? A hundred thousand? To read people's thoughts, seems like a good quality example of any 996 is getting expensive on the Retail Side and Climbing. I read the written thoughts of the Article. To me it seems he is reading to much ReenList and is jealous of the all the people that now have there foot in the door of the Top shelf Porsche. Sure you no longer need to be a doctor or spoiled rich kid to enjoy what is no doubt the best Porsche 911 ever built at the time of release. It was faster , more refined, handled better and there was other critical changes made to the headlights that folks just couldn't hold there dinners down thinking about. The 996 scorned most diehard oldschool drivers. Air cooled, drive by wire was what Porsche is about, the slow changing over to full nanny of nowadays has left some wondering why. Why not, that's the question to ask. Why not build a capable computer, water cooled car that will suck the paint off our Last best (around a track) why not make those beautiful headlights, hey the boxer only borrow our headlights. The 3.4l flat six is an amazing piece of machinery and human being merged together for a finished product that is very reliable and an excellent performance piece.

"There are only two truly desirable 996-generation Porsches in our market: The 2001-2004 Turbo and the 2004 GT3." I dunno - the guy seems pretty spot on to me. Seriously, what's with the fading paint comment? I don't remember anybody ever complaining about fading paint on a 996, "particularly true of the 1999-2001 models." WTF?

Prices go up and prices go down. A few years ago 993s could be found for around $26k. Now the actually selling prices range from the mid-30s to the 50s. Logic and history says someday, sooner or later, they'll be back down to $26k. And 996s are doing better...their prices will go up...and down too. They are nice old cars. What people write about them really isn't important. Just drive them and enjoy them...and when you want something else, do that too.

I sold my 993 in 2009 for $29K and bought my 996 cab in 2010 for $25K, and never looked back. The 993s and 996/997s are different versions of the same theme. One's not better or worse than the other...just different. My PCA region has far more water cooled p-car members than air cooled. As far as I can tell, both groups are having a lot of fun with their cars. relinuca

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I have a 2002 996... and there is definitely some fading paint on the roof, especially around the sunroof. It didn't seem all that unusual for a 15 year old car to me though.

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Don't know how common it is, but parked in the elements for 16 years and I can see primer through the paint on our's roof I can't say I've seen or heard of any others with the paint issues ours has. How many are garageless though for their entire life? Edit: OK now I have heard of one other with fading paint.

I agree with almost everything he says. it is the truth. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept. But who buys cars to flip them? lol

I think it's OK for an article like this to point the masses away from a 996. You don't want just anyone off the street who isn't knowledgeable buying these. There are risks with this car and it's not for everyone, especially not for flippers. And values might not go up, let's face it. The real story is the Boxster. Being able to buy one for four figures is kind of insane. Fewer people hate on these 987s, yet they are even cheaper. There's a lot of interest in the 996 these days though. Why are so many people either bashing it or praising it. Why are so many people interested? There has to be a reason. The reason they will continue to be interesting has to do with the new school being old again. As as far as ugly goes, I get just as many comments on this car as any other car I've had. People say things like "it's beautiful" to me all the time. Random strangers, etc. A 911 is a 911, it's that simple. Show me any other 911 that's a crap car. It might not be the favorite 911 of all time, but the worst 911 is still pretty darn great. My interior looks like new. I'm not sure where the quality issues are.

My 996 scratches all my 911 itch and that's good enough for me. I find it beautiful from almost every angle but the front. If I wanted another classic Porsche, it wouldn't be another 911. It would probably be a Porsche 928. Those lines have aged very well in my opinion. Or I would just pick up a new Boxster/Cayman with all the latest CarPlay, cameras and radar doodads. The air cooled Porsches hold absolutely no interest for me. I'd much rather have any V8/V12 Ferrari built after 1995 or one of the hand-built Aston Martin V8s. I think R&T is clearly wrong about two points. The dual-row 1999-2001 IMS clearly do not fail more than the later, single row. And the 2000 911 ME and the 996 4S will both be collectible one day too.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Mr. 996 Authority apparently doesn't think the 2005 996TTS is desirable. There are gonna be some seriously crushed TurBros when they learn this.

And the GT2 guys. They're gonna worry themselves sick over this.

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I have a 2001 996. Pretty sure it's been garaged most of its life because the paint still looks new. For comparison, I just bought a 2018 Infiniti and the paint on the two cars is pretty close.

The author accomplished what he wanted...he got clicks to his article and he got people talking about him (notoriety). Double win for him.

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If they do, please contact me, ill trade my x50 for their gt2.

Are we sure that just getting the guy fired is enough? I mean --- holy sh*t, he wrote something you don't like! Where would we be as a society if we just FIRED people for doing something that some rando on the Internet didn't like? Shouldn't the consequences for upsetting somebody be more serious than just LOSING YOUR JOB? At the VERY LEAST he should have his arms broken so he can't hurt any more feelings. Plus, I hear this Baruth guy has a family. How about we find his kid and beat him up a bit? Oh, the hell with it --- let's just erase him to the third generation the way they'd have done it two thousand years ago! Anyway... I wrote this article to counteract a rash of ridiculous, if not irresponsible, publications out there that are now advising people to buy a 996 based on the low cost of acquisition. We've done it ourselves at R&T, actually --- we gave a platform to some tubby moron who basically told the readers that a $15k 996 was a reasonable alternative to a $15k sport compact. If you've ever actually owned a Porsche as your daily driver, you know that the costs and problems don't align between ANY 911 and a Japanese hatchback. If you read the whole article and can understand it but you still disagree, then thanks for reading and I'm sorry to have upset you. If you want to read a differing perspective on watercooled cars, written by the same jerk that you want to have fired, here you go: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...d-love-affair/

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I just picked up my 996 a few months ago. So, I'm not sure if it has been garaged consistently or not. And the funny thing is... the fading is just on the roof. The hood and fenders look almost new. I'm going to try to polish it out soon, but I'm not expecting much.

"At best, you’ll have same kind of kitschy appeal that you’d have with a 1977 Monte Carlo—but you can get parts for a 1977 Monte Carlo for pennies on the dollar at a junkyard.".... Dude obviously hasn't been to a junkyard anytime in the last decade (or two). All said, with Porsches I went from an '86 930 to a '96 993, to my '99 996, with several other 944s etc along the way. The 996 is my favorite car to drive regularly of all these, for lots of reasons. If it wasn't, I'd go get something else. Financial investment/speculation is a non issue when I'm driving, I have many other classic cars for that.

Investment in a car... that's a serious topic and I would venture to say very few make sense. That out of the way. The reason I picked 996 is solely because I want N/A engine with least amount of nanny tech from more modern cars. I also tried E46. As a 'Driver's car' which definition is different from everyone, but if you want to be connected to the road and actually drive a car, there isn't many of them left. New Miata is probably the best execution of modern cars. Will the 996 price goes up like the air cooled ones? I don't really care but that's not why I buy the car or any car for that matter. The inventory of 996/997.1 almost don't really matter because a car like these are only going to be reducing in inventory. Like the aircooled ones, no cars will be built like that anymore can also be said of the 996/997. With the introduction of Turbo 4, it probably drive more enthusiasts and purist to take a second look at these. That in my opinion is the reason why so many video, article and blogs are taking an interest in the 996/997.

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It's funny you mention this. I am a recent C4S owner who just made the car perfect to how he wants it, if market values were completely taken out of the equation I would have NO interest what-so-ever in owning a 993 instead of my 996. Would I love to own one because it's a classic porsche, sure. Would I love to drive one just because, yeah definitely. DO I think they are better in any way over myy 4s coupe? Nope. I don't even think the 993 is particularly good looking.

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I liked the second article (love affair). Seems like the title of this thread is hyperbole; something you are very familiar with given the article in question, however . Calling to derail your career & openly insulting you seems to be abusive & childish. There is a lot of merit to pushing back on those that suggest 911 ownership as a substitute for less expensive & more reliable cars. It may be 1/3rd the price or less of a Nissan GTR, but ownership is decidedly more expensive. Thanks for keeping the community entertained. In the end, buyer interest is just a function of total exposure and those willing to pony up the funds.

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You overhype issues, whine about the headlights, and moan about how no one listened to you about the 914. Yes there are problems with it, but there are potentially catastrophic problems with every 911 model ever made. There are also solutions and mitigations for the main problems, just like for all the 911s before it. You also mentioned the production numbers, but fail to point out that we only hear about a small fraction of them and typically only when there are issues. Last I checked, however, few if any car forums are awash with "another day of the car working flawlessly" threads. Finally in your similarly over the top whinny response here you try to spin it as doing a service to uneducated buyers. Yet your article does nothing to actually educate the reader as to the real rate of problems and what/how to look for signs of problems. I think your article is drivel, but I congratulate you for generating clicks and discussion. That was your real goal and you (unfortunately in my opinion) succeeded. For the record we have had our 01 since we ordered it and it's simple/cheap upkeep was the deciding factor in going with my Cayenne over an X5. The 996's repair bills have increased in the last few years, but it has also seen much less usage over that time too. The years that it was a DD the worst it saw was the odd failed window regulator or stuck fuel float. Oh the horror!!!!

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigok.gif

I say keep the hate coming and keep the prices low. Fantastic driver, most affordable 911, and arguably the most likely to suffer catastrophic failure. And when the car blows, it's nice to know I can go and pick one up for the less than a new Civic. I have to care about what old white guys say at work, I prefer not to do it in my free time.

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Have you ever driven a 993? Not asking to be snarky, just curious to see what you think of the experience compared to your 4s. I've driven a 996 C2 and ridden in a 996 4s, so I have some impressions but they are pretty limited.

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I've come around and I personally like the 996 - both the looks and the driving experience. But to say that every 911 has catastrophic problems that are like what the 996 has experienced is not accurate. Every generation has some problems yes, but very few have problems that quickly result in the need for a new engine. My 993 has the risk of premature valve guide wear. It means that somewhere before 200k miles I may need to do a top end valve job. That's it. I watch oil consumption and budget 5k for the work some 10-15 years in the future. I contemplated a 996 and even at current prices I didn't want to deal with the hassle of worrying about a bad engine. With a properly installed fix, I'd have been less worried but those are hard to find and even harder to verify. Was it done properly? Was it done before the engine took any IMS related damage? Would I still have to deal with bore scoring or d-chunking? There are a few engines out there (e.g. Raby engines) that seem truly worry free, but most are a question mark. I understand all the happy 996 drivers and I empathize with those who have bought and been burned. Knowing my personality I'd have a hard time being the former because I'd always be worried about turning into the latter.

Baruth is a 996-hating schmuck. His 914 comments cemented that theory. Not all automotive writers have a clue (I know because I "are" an automotive writer, in my spare time - check out my words of wisdom and a comparison of Charlize Theron's butt to an extremely well-sculpted car trunk in Brickell Magazine - and I realize I am not all-knowing about everything that rolls)

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I think JB is a generally good writer who has a long history with Porsche and knows quite a bit about the brand. He's also half-troll and has perfected the art of stirring controversy to generate lots of comments on his articles. Right now he is sitting back, watching this thread and laughing while he strums his guitar and listens to a John Mayer album playing in the background.

^ agreed - kinda like what the Donald does. The call for Baruth's firing is a bit extreme, IMO. Still, not all auto writers are all-knowing and it's ok to disagree with them from time to time. Lord knows 99% of the planet does so with Jeremy Clarkson who is also pretty much anti-911 99999% of the time (he did like the 996 GT3) I'm sure a few took exception to my review of the Fiat (hack, wheeze, cough "Mazda with a Fiat 500 engine") 124, in which I theorized hairdressers named Vance are the target demographic Fiat is hoping to attract.

It's tough because on one hand the premise of the article, "Don't buy a 996 to get rich," is not bad advice. I feel that it's the quotes from the article such as this one: That, in the year 2017, just feels like bullying to be a bully. Wow, we've never heard that one before. Hot take. With his comparison to the 914 I feel like even Jack knows that a few of us flawed nobodies will look back on our time with this car one day and say "Hey, I'd do that again." I can empathize that Journalism on the internet is a battle for attention and a writer may need to make more sensationalized statements to get clicks. I just feel like the argument over why the 996 is best served putting smiles on faces than dollars in bank accounts could have been written with fewer insults & digs. Picking on "the little guy" is always cheap.

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True, but when a I looked at a $15k FRS, I figured that depreciation on an FRS would offset the maintenance costs somewhat or considerably. While I don't think 996s will necessarily appreciate in value, the depreciation is done. So you buy and sell for the same price but then pay a lot in repairs and maintenance, except that heavy Porsche repair costs are not necessarily a given. Some of these cars don't break at all and folks are only doing oil changes, brake pads, and tires. In those rare cases, the Porsche 996 is one of the cheapest cars to own, TCO included.

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The E46 and the 996 comparison is a darn good one. Plenty of other BMWs have become "collector" or at least have gone up in cost significantly over time. Yet the E46 is one of the greatest M3s to date. And yet they are still "cheap" like a 996. They are as fast as a 996, very reliable, and aren't cheap to maintain. Plenty of folks think that an E46 might go up quite a bit as well. What it comes down to is how many good example are left. They are dwindling fast and availability is becoming more and more difficult.

The only reason that the paint on 996 roofs fade before the paint on the rest of the car, is because the roof is closer to the sun by about 18," and even the sun hates 996s. Everybody knows that.

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To be fair the passenger C pillar and upper part of the quarter panel look like crap too, but the roof is the worst. The sun also trashed the finish on the rear passenger "chrome" turbo wheel.

I read the article in the original post, and I must say that I agree with much of what was said. I don't appreciate the writing style or the obvious bias against the 996, but I do agree with the overall sentiment of the piece. I think that most of the people who are rennlist members are Porsche enthusiasts. The people on the 996 forums are generally 996 enthusiasts. They take care of their cars, and they appreciate the finer points of Porsche ownership. That being said, there are many threads on the 996 forums that discuss the possibility of values going up, like it's a forgone conclusion. I don't think it is a certainty. I believe that certain models (those identified in the article, and perhaps others) will appreciate. At some point in the future, I believe that ANY porsche that is in outstanding condition with very low miles will appreciate. The main takeaway for me is that we shouldn't expect the 996 to appreciate the way the air-cooled cars did. I think that's reasonable. There's no need to bash the 996 to make that point though. This type of article and logic would interesting if applied to the 997 series cars. The 997 was produced in large numbers and it's water cooled, like the 996. Sure, it has some improvements (some significant), but will it appreciate like the air-cooled cars did? It's hard to say. There are many 997 owners who believe that the 997 is the second coming of the 993, and therefore guaranteed to appreciate to ridiculous values in the future. Time will tell....

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This

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I don't think even air-cooled cars are going to appreciate like the air-cooled cars have. To try to ride an appreciation wave with a used car is folly. Buy the car you want, enjoy it, drive it and if your total cost of ownership is better than you expected - you win!

When I bought a '82 911SC in 1995, the early 911s (65-73) were all seen as junk and nobody wanted them. They were the first of a generation (65-97), and it took from 1970 until 2010 (40 years) before prices went up. Now the 996 is the first of the next generation, the modern design, water cooled cars. It will take time for the prices of 996 to go up, probably happen by 2040.

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I couldn't agree more! Buying a car as an investment is rarely a good idea. Porsches are meant to be driven!

I have read the article twice and think it's pretty on point. I will say I am a fan of Jack and Road & Track. Being a Porsche nut like most I have never been a fan of the 996 styling. That said, to me it's the most affordable 911 out there. As much as I would like to get an air cooled model the prices are way too insane. These days I am thinking the 996 offers a great package at pretty reasonable price. Take it with a grain of salt. There is a lot of attention being paid toward the 996 model.

If you want to buy a car to see its value appreciate there are surely better choices then a 996. Maybe you should invest in wine or gold or whatever. Who cares. Maybe the guy just got irritated by a bit too much of that discussion. Fine. But why bash the 996? I guess there are better ways to convey that message then just to be negative. Volkert

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Great point. Some 997s have the same engines as the 996s and are prone to similar risk. Which means bynthe time they are 18 years old, they might sell for under $20k too. The same thing happened to the SC/3.2/964 and it will probably happen again for the 996/997/991 cars, IMO

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I wasn't going to comment but: A car is a car. Some are nicer than others. Some are more fun to drive. Some are better looking. Some are more expensive. I do not see a car as an investment in anything but my fun or my transportation or both. If I want to invest in something I call my financial advisor. P.S.: He thought it was questionable that I bought this car! Apparently he doesn't understand... I love my 996 with all it's warts and detractors. I agree drive it. Enjoy it. Life is short. Have fun.

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Ummm...dude, it was hyperbole. You authored an article that took aim at a model of car with a vast following and didn't think enthusiasts of the model would take issue with your criticism? Moreover, is the irony of the tone of your response to my post lost on you? You've chosen to angrily attack my post because I've disagreed with you. Your contempt for my hyperbole is a red herring at best; a thinly veiled attempt to skew the intent of your response. I have owned and do own a Porsche as a daily driver. In terms of maintenance, it's cost me no more or less than my Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, or, for that matter, my wife's fleet of Honda Pilots which, ironically, have required the most work (all covered under warranty) of all of our cars. I did read your full article and, in fact, I'd previously read the earlier articles that R&T published about the 996. Your apology is unnecessary. You're entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, I clearly take issue with the quality of the analysis you've applied to your argument. I'm sorry to have offended you, Jack, but the evidence you presented in your article deriding the value on the 996 is apparently about is thin as your skin. -Eric

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The title of the thread is where my comments about Mr. Baruth's career ended. As you pointed out, it was pure hyperbole with which, as you also noted, Mr. Baruth should be solidly familiar. As someone who has subscribed to R&T for the better part of 20yrs, I didn't whine about cancelling my subscription or send a note to the editor criticizing the quality of his piece. Respectfully, if something was childish, it was his response. This. It's clear that the purpose of his response was to drive more clicks to yet another article. Kudos, Mr. Baruth. -Eric P.S. Jack, feel free to follow me on Instagram @sueesponte.photography.

While I'm not a fan of intentionally smug elitist writing style, I think the article was relatively accurate. I just priced a wheel bearing(cuz he used that example) and the rear bearing for my 996 is about $100. For my Subaru it's about 47 for the rear with AWD. It should be noted that the Subie takes a bearing and hub and I get the hub with bearing pressed in already. Bolt off, bolt on. The 996 requires a serious bit of bash and smash to repl the bearing. The 996 has a stigma from the IMS, and that will never, ever go away. Doesn't matter if it's the last 439 chassis on the planet, it will still be at risk for advanced failure from IMS. I also think there's a disconnect between what the focus of the article was, and the responses here. The article focused on the financial gains possible of the 996, and most of the blowback seems to be about the driving characteristics, fun-factor, etc. Some have even opined that they would never consider selling their cars. Which is fine, there are people who keep cars until they die. But - your offspring, or whomever gets the Porsche love of your life will more than likely want to put a dollar value on it. In that case, they may be upset that your pride and joy is only worth a small fraction of the 993, or 930. I tend to buy and sell cars relatively often. The trick is in the purchase side, not the sales side. I'm ahead on my car financially, but hoping that the prices will pick up more before I let it go. I believe we are at the nadir of prices on the 996, but it may go down slightly more. Having watched the excitement of the 928 values for 15 years, it amazes me that there can be such a wide disparity in pricing. I can still find rough but complete 928s for under $5k, but the top of the heap are getting close to $100k for a pristine example of the GTS with manual. You can't touch a rough but complete air-cooled for under $15k.

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The disconnect lies within the article itself. As has already been pointed out in this thread, the premise that the 996 won't appreciate in the same way as the air-cooled cars is probably true. However, the author's reasoning seems to be that the 996 is a ****ty car, which is obviously not the reason for that. Thus, the criticism.

In the elitist writing style of someone who brought you; 'if you like your plan, you can keep your plan', comes this bon mot: " If you want a “fried-egg” 911 just for the hell of it, or because you have a $15,000 budget and you really, really need to drive a 911 to your high school reunion, by all means, have at it. As my friend and club racing teammate Christian Ward said right here on R&T, it's a killer bargain. But if you think you’re going to make money on the deal, or even break even, you'll be sorely disappointed." Not a ringing endorsement, but far from advising the car is shilty. Why would he shy away from describing the downsides of the car if his point is to advise against collect-ability? If he implied it was a shilty car, I don't see that either. Pointing out the myriad shortcomings of the 996 in defense of his proof-point on value is pretty basic review material. Frankly, discounting style - this article might save an unsuspecting buyer, maybe a girl, maybe at an auction, maybe who wants to buy one from making a $10,000 mistake. While we may not like his sniping, this is for the non-owner 996, or the person who is on the fence about purchasing. As owners, we've already voted, and our vote is recorded in our garage. Of course we might be defensive about any criticism leveled at our pride and joy. That doesn't change the fact that the 996 is going to be a long time waiting for financial gain.

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Who knows what will happen in the future. Could anyone have predicated "crappy" 914s skyrocketing in value??? To me, the whole classic car market has gone nuts and folks are paying crazy amounts of money these days. Remember the Boyd Coddington et al hot rod phase a few years ago where those types of cars were selling for over $100k? Can't give em away now. I think a lot of the car shows on Velocity channel and others like it are adding to the hype. I think eventually folks will consider the 996 kitschy and cool. How much they'll appreciate I have no idea. I'm just gonna drive mine regularly and look after it. If in 10 years someone is crazy enough to offer me $50k for it, I'll be handing over the pink slip.

Good point. Have you priced a VW microbus lately? I thought about buying one from the mid-70s like my dad had. Then I started shopping. Wow. Who would have ever believed that something like that would be so expensive.

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So, just to be clear, you really don't think telling people the only reason to buy a 996 is if "you really, really need to drive a 911 to your high school reunion" or "just for the hell of it" (aka, if you want to throw your cash away), is another way of saying that the 996 is a !#@tty car? That's all the 996 is good for? I love the 993 but, objectively speaking, the 996 is lighter, faster, better handling, more comfortable, better equipped and an all around better car (foibles be damned) than the 993. Let's apply that logic to other things... - I married Jane because I figured "what the hell." - I married Jane because I "really, really wanted to impress people at my high school reunion." Wow, Jane's a lucky woman to be described with such high praise. lol Look, I have no problem with people not liking the 996 but intimating it's all around worse than every other 911 that came before and after it is just...wrong...and despite any valid criticism leveled in Mr. Baruth's article, that's basically what he said. People can disagree but I read his piece as more of a personal rant against the 996 than whether it is or should be collectible. -Eric

I was surprised about his reports regarding the reliability of the A/C and stereo components...really? I hardly ever see a post here about either of those. In any case I agreed with a lot of what he said. The fact is most modern cars are not going to be collectible. They're making too many of them and the qualities/traits that made old cars unique are no longer in newer vehicles. I could care less that my car is worth nothing, it still brings me joy and it gets respect from almost anyone who sees it. Besides if it got too valuable I might not want to drive it. But even as a 996 owner, I still want an air-cooled in my garage one day. They affect our senses in the way that the water-cooled cars can't - that's why they're so valuable today.

Gotta go with Eric. Sure a 996 got issues but most can be solved and yes, they are getting older now. Let's not hype "air-cooled" cars as well. I have been watching 911SC/964/993 prices for 10 years and only lately they have started to increase. Not too long ago you could pick up a reasonable 964 for 20-25k. Now you can still pick up a nice 80-90s car for 30-40k and I don't see that go up much further. That is not "valuable" to me; 80-100k is more that range. So to me the article is a negative rant and I don't like negativity so to me it is a ****ty article. Just my 2c of course. V

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And that takes me back to the fading paint comment. I just did a search for "paint fade" and pulled up every thread here in the 996 forum going back to the dawn of time that mentions those words anywhere in the thread. Other than this thread, there is no other thread on the topic of the factory paint fading. There are threads about clear bras discoloring and caliper repainting, etc., but there is not one thread on the topic of crappy factory paint jobs. So, where the hell did that criticism come from? I'm not saying that the paint has never faded on any 996 (clearly we had a couple of examples cited in this thread), but it is not a known fault of the 996. My 951 with single-stage (no clearcoat) defines paint fade. I've had 95% of it repainted and the parts that haven't been clearcoated fade to pink if you shine a bright flashlight on it. My 964's rear spoiler would fade to pink about every 6 months and the clearcoat on it had several spots that were flaking off. But significant, serious paint problems with a 996? If they are out there, nobody's complaining about it in here. Then the fact that he didn't know that the 996tt went until 2005 and fails to mention the GT2 when he mentions also the GT3, well that just tells me that he really doesn't know that much about the 996 line of vehicles. I wouldn't expect the average Joe to know those things, but if you are going to hold yourself out as an expert on the 996, those are pretty basic gaffes. Again, not losing any sleep over it. Several other people have already nailed it in here - I think it was written to generate some controversy (which it has). It clearly wasn't well researched. I wouldn't consider Mr. Baruth an expert on the 996 - if you don't know what you don't know . . . I would say that he knows just enough to be dangerous.

I'm not even going to click on the story. I don't want to give the guy another click. If I want to read senseless bashing of the 996, I'll just read some of the many BS RL 996 forum posts, which I rarely do anymore... I had a mint, fairly low mileage '84 Targa Carrera which was a nice car but it paled in comparison to my 2000 C2 IMHO. The Targa is long gone but I still own and enjoy driving the 996 after about 13 years of ownership... It cracks me up when I read most air-cooled owners bash the 996...and they claim to be car guys. LOL

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What if it is 'worse'(surely a subjective measure) than all before and after 911s? Right now, I would say that from a financial standpoint, the 996 is the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. There are features that I like about the car, but lets be realistic - if you apply the depr curve fairly the 996 is at the bottom of lake Gitchigumi. You keep conflating the 996 'joy of driving' or 'lighter, faster, safer, deeper, harder', and purposefully ignoring the FINANCIAL theme of the article. Which is fine and all that, but just because you are enamored with the car, doesn't mean it is collectable. I know a lady that spent $22,000 to have her prized wiemeriner interred in a special place in the Hollywood hills pet cemetery. Good for her, good for you. Love your car, but if you want to make a profit on it someday - maybe you made a mistake.

when I had a coolant smell coming from the cabin, I searched on here and renn tech and found a few threads explain the heat exchanger needing to be replaced. it was common enough that I found a how-to and did it myself following that. search for lcd screen issues and you'll get quite a bit of hits also iirc but that's the Beauty with a car approaching 20 years old - everyone before you has run into the issues and documented their fix. the 996 IS an easy car to work on.

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Perhaps no one here is talking about the dreaded paint fade failure because there is no RL "sponsor" here hyping the problem and whipping everyone up to send them their car for the miraculous "repaint solution". Someone should start a paint fade failure poll...I'd bet the failure rate is far less than 1% and most of those failures occur in warm/sunny climates...

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1. You just changed the issue. In an earlier post, you said Mr. Baruth didn't really say it was a $h8tty car. I was responding to that comment. 2. I don't keep conflating anything. Mr. Baruth conflated the issues, which is the exact point most of us have been taking issue with all along. Most of his article on the value of the 996 is linked to his belief that it's a $h8tty car. I understand the distinction you're drawing and, in fact, I agree with you that "good" and "collectible" are two different concepts...but you're telling the wrong guy. My point in earlier posts was simply that, to the extent he's factoring quality into the equation, his conclusion is factually flawed. If you go back to my first post, you'll even see that, regardless of my opinion of the car itself, I said I didn't think the 996 is collectible today or that it will be in the near future. -Eric

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That is only true, however, for the ever-rarer few that have have owned theirs long enough to have bought when the prices were still high (or the super rare few original owners that paid MSRP!) and have seen it fall. The prices of 996s has been pretty stable with minimal fluctuations over the last few years. So if you have picked one up in that time or are looking to pick one up now, there are far from the financial "wreck" you imply. Sure there are the exceptional examples like the girl who recently way overpaid for that 996 at auction, but her over paying is not some fault of the car. It's her fault for buying something without having any idea what she was doing. She could have done the same with a Lexus or a BMW too. You can also try to claim a catastrophic engine failure as part of being a "financial wreck", but the reality is that such failures are on par with having the car totaled in a wreck. It happens and it sucks, but contrary to the thread rate in this forum, it's still rare. The maintenance costs are also a red herring in my opinion. They vary from car to car, sometimes wildly, and are more dependent on the car and it's care than the fact of being a 996. Yes there is a "Porsche tax" on parts and services, but the article tries to imply that other 911s don't carry the same penalty. Porsche is not alone in that either as all mid and high end brands carry such price hikes. The antagonistic approach of the article is hiding a simple truth that has been repeated in this thread multiple times. These are not investment cars. These are cars to buy at a phenomenal price and enjoyed for what they are.

That's great, and the author is giving his opinion in regards those saying to pick one up as an investment because "they will go up". And yes, there are many people saying this will happen. That's horrible financial advice and I 100% agree with the author.

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I agree with your second point, but I haven't seen the first myself. Seems to me that every time someone tries to start a "996 values are on the rise!!!" thread there are plenty of us to chime in and point out how there really hasn't been more than the seasonal fluctuations for a number of years and that no they shouldn't be bought for investment purposes. Further to that point when people are considering low milage examples we are also quick to chime in about it not being an investment (and will probably be costly if they use it as a driver). Even the poor ME guys that want to believe those cars will appreciate get their bubble burst regularly by those of us that have watched the market for a long time. The only non-GT cars we talk about with any hint of collectibility/appreciation are the 40AEs (which have actually dropped considerably in recent years contrary to the rest of the 996 line up) and the rare 4S Cabs.

I know what I've read and I know I shook my head when I read it. we won't agree, you took offence to this article, I absolutely agreed with it.

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Stop, please. If you read through the 6 or so pages of this thread, I don't think any of the author's critics have argued that people should invest in a 996 today. It's not the author's conclusion that most of us have taken issue with; it's the fact that his logic doesn't support his conclusion and his article really has nothing to do with investment. It's a sham premise for simply calling the 996 a $h*tty car. That's what has most of us up in arms. He didn't stop at "it's not worthy of your investment." He went on a dramatic rant limiting its value to "impress someone at a high school reunion," essentially telling buyers to otherwise avoid the model entirely. So, if you agree with the author 100%, you agree the 996 is a $h*tty car. And, if that's the case, you're entitled to your opinion. Suffice it to say, most of us would probably disagree. So, wait, my ultra, uber, super duper rare, daily driver 4S cab is a potential collectible and I should buy more of them? lol -Eric

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Your's is doubly collectible being that it's the only known model with the exclusive Aviary option

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The more I read of your comments, the more I'm dead certain that all you did was read the headline (which is provided by the social-media staff at R&T) and start banging on your keyboard. You've decided to engage in a kind of Jame-Gumb-in-the-mirror play-acting where you're free to read anything you want into the article then claim that anybody who notices this has a "thin skin". As for the proofreaders who keep braying "LOLZ HE FORGOT THE GT2"... I've actually driven a 996 GT2. It's not a car you would forget. But for me to devote time to it (or the Turbo S droptop, the omission of which also upset people) in the article would mean that I'd also have to talk about the 4S, and the Anniversary car, and so on. The 996 is not collectible. It's not going to be collectible. Assuming that it needs as much time to appreciate as the rubber-bumper 2.7-liter cars did, that puts your peak 996 years in the year 2038 or thereabouts. Tell you what. If, in the year 2038, an average 1999 Carrera is worth within fifty percent of the worth of an average 1998 Carrera on the open market, I will cheerfully buy a drink for any and all 996 owners I encounter. Stop poring through the article for attempts to marginalize you, your family, a particular subcontractor on the 996, or your own personal car which has never faded the paint or burped the A/C because it has 37,400 miles of pampered garage life under its belt. It's not the Book of Revelations. It's the opinion of a long-time Porsche owner and driver regarding Watercooled Investment Hysteria. Period.

I liked you better when you posted about racing, autox, and technical issues. Market speculation is a messy business

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I read the article and he's summed up my 996 experience so far to the T. It's been the least reliable car I have ever owned. i have now dumped more money in these pass 4 years than I paid for the car. I get it everyone's experience will be different. I'm sorry these views upset you but maybe you should grow thicker skin. while many agreed with what you said, others have agreed with the authors position also. if you love your porsche 996 & its been your reliable car, then who cares what we have to say?

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Not that it matters but you're wrong. My "thin skin" comment was directed at your diatribe about being fired. As repeatedly noted, it was hyperbole that went no further than the title. Please move on. Please show me where I or any of us in this thread, to the best of my recollection, said it was. And, you think I'm the one who's responding without reading? Wow, talk about having a high opinion of yourself. I guess we're all just idiots who have no experience of our own. "Jack has spoken." It's sad actually. I've actually enjoyed reading some of your articles in the past, even if they tend to be more puff than substance. It's a shame this is the way you respond to criticism. -Eric

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Your opinion seems to have changed in the last year, but I don't recall seeing any indication as to why. You kept us all up to date with your rebuild saga which was both informative to those considering (or following) the same path and interesting to those of us that will never do it ourselves. I think we universally appreciate the information you provided both in that thread as well as in other threads where you offered great input on other people's issues and questions. Through that whole time you appeared to have a good attitude about the whole thing and took the bumps in stride. Just for that alone you were a better man than I as I would have lost my stack long before the end was in sight (which is why I will just send it to Jake if our time ever comes). Then after it was all back together and finally running you seem to have taken a negative bent to it all. I'm not saying you don't have a right to feel that way, just that it seems surprising and out of the blue. At the end of the day, however, it was your choice to follow the path that you did. It was certainly a weakness of the M96 that bit you, but what would your monetary equation look like if you had simply sold it as a roller or put another used motor in? Still not great, but I suspect much better than the path you followed. As far as I can tell, at the time you went into the rebuild with your eyes open and understanding that it would neither be easy nor cheap.

Every new writer wants to be the next Peter Egan, Henry Manney III, etc. The problem is, they don't quite get the formula. Their shrill attention getting social media driven style is not a style that will last. I hope all aspiring writers really READ the stories written by the great ones...maybe they'll learn something.

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lots of emotions went into this for me. I'm still not over it. I don't think I will ever be. and TBH, if someone came along and offered me the right money for my car, I'd probably take it and hand them the keys.

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The 996 has been the least reliable car I've owned. But that's a little unfair given its age (16yo) and the make & year of my other cars. A guy I know in the local car club is actively looking for a 996. He's been briefed on its status as a relatively good car for a DIY-capable owner, but a nightmare for someone on a budget and lacking technical ability. This categorization is separate from the broad disclaimer that 70% of the car's value is tied up in the health of the engine. Any purchase should weight this fact and focus primarily on the health of the engine. A difficult task, but one that can be done with the understanding that the goal is to reduce risk - not entirely eliminate it. It's unfortunate how many owners go the unethical route & create situations like the one you experienced. Gnat's experience, while perfectly valid and fair to bring up, has little to do with those looking at buying used models with variable ownership history. A material portion of the inventory available will fall short of Gnat's maintenance standards, so his experience should be viewed accordingly.

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First, I'm not sure where your thin skinned comment came from. Did I react angrily to you about something? I've repeatedly said that people are entitled to their opinions about the 996. I even said the same directly to you. I'm truly sorry if I offended you somehow. Second, I didn't know your experience with the car but, based on Gnat's comment, I'm assuming your IMSB blew and you went ahead with a rebuild. I'm sorry to hear about your experience and, not that you owed it to me (or anyone), but if I'd known you had a bad experience I would have better understood where you were coming from. In all honesty, I'd probably take a very different position on the 996 if I had your experience, as well. As for your last statement, I could say the same to you. Who cares, right? Except, this is a 996 forum and, presumably, many (if not most) of us are enthusiasts of the model. So, yeah, I/we care about the 996. In fact, it's probably what brought most of us here (other than Jack who clearly takes issue with hyperbole and criticism, and seems to enjoy being a troll). -Eric

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Totally get that and as I said, you handled the whole process far better than I could have. For what it's worth I think you'll always be a rockstar of the 996 world. You an Ahsai have been amazing

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I think this is true of any used car though. I saw the same stuff in the e30 world when you could pick up a decent RWD for $1500 or AWD for $2500. People would jump in and then be shocked at the amount they needed to put into them relative to the buy in price. Actually I'm pretty honest that we've always had lax standards about maintenance. Our OCI schedule gives some members here ulcers. We didn't do the 6yr/60k service until it was 12 years old and had the 60k. We don't follow schedules, but instead just fix what's broken, looks like it's going to be broken, or is cheaper to do while something else meeting that criteria is getting done. It's also lived it's entire life outside with no protection from the elements and we drive it in any and all weather/road conditions. The key difference is that we know how it was driven for all of it's 75k and know if something doesn't feel right vs wondering if that's just how the cars are. That certainly plays into my lack of fear about the car. The other part, however, is that it is worth more than the sum of it's parts to us. So if we ever get hit by a catastrophic failure, we will sink the money into it for it to live again. I'll choke signing those checks to Jake and stress over the lead time, but the result will be worth it if we ever have to do it. Hell, I can't even say that I love the car. I love her though and she loves it. I do, however, appreciate it for what it is and can enjoy driving it.

Given what AWD has been through, I wouldn't call it out of the blue. Some aspects I can relate to. The car has a running list of issues and sometimes you can live with it and sometimes it sidelines you .When I drive it regularly, I love the car - when I can't I start keeping a running tally of how often this thing has been up jackstands (which mine is again right now). Me personally, I've dumped more into this car in the first year of ownership than my last two cars spanning 16 years of ownership combined - despite maintenance being done by a mechanic on my previous cars. That being said, what else could I get at this price point that gives me the mix of performance and experience? Nothing...which is why I say keep the vitriol coming. Prices rising would be like real estate prices rising for me...oh yay, my home is worth more...oh wait, so is the next house I'm buying. The only way I profit is by moving to a less desirable location, and I don't know if I'm willing to leave CA or live without a 911 at this point. But why the author's denial about disliking the 996? Context is set with "infamous Vanagon-engined misery-mobile that wasn’t even considered worthy of a Porsche badge in its home country". The article ends with, "you’d never have to explain to your neighbors why you bought the ugliest Porsche since the 914." If you're actually neutral to the 996, you could've fooled me. I actually enjoy JB's articles and may or may not continue to read them. It wasn't what he said about the 996, it's just an opinion and everyone's entitled...and you'd think a journalist putting out opinion pieces would understand this. But he came on here all sore, snarky, and accusing Eric of personalizing this by imagining something he didn't write...which is what exactly did in his interpretation of the posts -no one is arguing with the fact that the 996 is a poor investment! Well, his column is called Avoidable Contact, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

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I know the issues he's had since getting it running again are the root of it, but to me it always seemed like he killed the beast and was now fretting over the clean up. I totally get the "I just finished pouring X time and Y dollars into it and I'm still having issues!" pain though. I don't begrudge him his view at all. Just seemed sudden and surprising is all based on his attitude through the whole rebuild.

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Absolutely everyone's opinions & experience counts. I just agree with the auThor of the article. his style isn't for everyone but it's not like he lied about anything. I've gone through it all with this car, his comments didn't offend me like it did to a lot of people on here. enjoy your rides boys & girls!

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Jack: First off, I actually think it's cool that you've come in here to interact with us. I have subscribed to Car & Driver for the past 37 years and to Automobile since it came out. I thoroughly enjoy the columns in those magazines. I don't have anything against R&T - I just don't need 3 car magazines. I know there is at least one online automotive writer who frequents this forum. Frankly, I think an automotive writer could find some interesting topics in the online forums as well as pick up some good information/research for articles. Bottom line, I'd invite you to hang around some more, despite the fact that we've obviously pissed you off in this thread. As for the GT2 and 996TTS comments, I'll take the hit for raising those issues. But, if you devote the time & space to specifically state: "There are only two truly desirable 996-generation Porsches in our market: The 2001-2004 Turbo and the 2004 GT3" I have to assume that you didn't realize that they made the 996TT in 2005 and that if you were aware of it, maybe you didn't realize the GT2 was a 996-generation model. Otherwise, you could have just said: "There are only three truly desirable 996-generation Porsches in our market: The 2001-2005 Turbo, the GT2 and the 2004 GT3." So, that's where my criticism stems from. Now, I gotta ask simply because I'm curious - what's your basis for the comment on the bad paint? That just seems like it's out of left field. Am I missing something?

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the engine is running fantastic now but I still had to dump about $1000 in the last couple of months on other things that, again, for a car with 110 k km on it shouldn't be needing to be replaced, IMO.

When did "collectibility" become such an important part aspect of 911 ownership? The '70 coupe I bought in '91 was a "f---ing cool old car", not a collectible (and certainly not a "longhood"). I had a PTS '84 coupe with spoilers and factory sports seats, purchased in 2001. Never heard a word about its investment grade. So: 1) How many 911s did you own before your 996? 2) In what year did you purchase your 996? 3) Why'd you decide to 996 instead of putting the same money into any of the collectible cars? 1) Two 2) 2002 coupe purchased 2015 from original owner 3) Because it offers higher performance and is in much nicer shape than any same-cost earlier car and I'm a driver, not a collector.

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After the 996 came out and the old guard poopooed it as an aberration. As I recall it was about 2002 when the 993 depreciation tapered off and the 996 value started tanking. It was around the release of the 997 that the air cooled hype seemed to get going and the depreciation on 993s effectively stopped. This eventually sucked in other air cooled cars too and finally went insane 4 or so years ago when the 993 market started taking off. Interestingly, I think the 996 prices stabilized about the same age as the 993 did, just at a lower mark. Doubt we'll see $250k 996TTs anytime soon though

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I try to be responsive to readers whenever I can, particularly when they disagree with me. I'll admit to being a little bit annoyed by "Sue" or "eric" or whatever she/he is because I have little patience for the idea that nobody should have to suffer the trauma of a dissenting opinion. But in general if somebody disagrees with me I'd like to hear about it. It's a good way for me to learn something. The Facebook commenters were pretty big on it as well. It's an unfortunate part of writing for the online audience. You have to keep the article to 1,200 words or less or they don't read to the end. But in order to get any kind of even vaguely complex point across in 1,200 words you have to wave your hand at stuff and that opens you up to criticism on that point. You can't win, you just have to pick your battles. If I'd put in a paragraph about the GT2, the Special Wish cars, and all that, it would have gotten chopped. But on the other hand I couldn't just say the "split-case cars" because that doesn't make sense to a general audience. Oh well. Over the past decade, I've worked closely with a variety of Porsche tuners and second-hand dealers. I hear complaints about the paint on a frequent basis. This isn't limited to 996es --- it's all the early water-based paint cars including the sainted 993. I think the reason you don't hear that much about it among the owner base is that most of you are dealing with cars that have spent their entire lives garaged. Something else I'll say as long as I'm on this topic --- there's another commenter on here who said something about Peter Egan and "why can't these new people be more like Peter Egan." Allow me to be the first person to say that I would totally enjoy being like Peter Egan. Mr. Egan earned a handsome full-time living turning out about 900 words a month, those words being heavily edited and revised by a full staff of people over the course of ninety days before publication. By contrast, I write 20,000 words a month as a part-time gig in addition to working 60 hours a week at my day job and parenting an eight-year-old boy --- and I can't complain because I have it better than almost EVERYBODY in the auto-journo game. The people over at "The Drive" earn twenty bucks a post. Jalopnik pays twenty-five bucks a post. Some people don't even get that. There are several "big names" in the auto-blog and Porsche-specific-blog worlds who work entirely for free and have never gotten a check. We operate in a much faster-paced media environment now that has no patience for the kind of stuff that Egan wrote. If a thirty-year-old were to write to a major auto magazine now and say, "I'd like to earn $125k/year writing one column a month about my old MG and my barn," he wouldn't even get the courtesy of a rejection notice. It's a shame because there are probably some really great voices out there who aren't being heard as a consequence. Last but not least, there's the fact that writing almost ANYTHING negative about Porsche, even about USED Porsches, will get you permanently dis-invited from their events and press fleet access, which is kind of like being fired because writing about Porsches is a big part of writing about cars. I've had a lot of dinners at press events with people who ranted for hours about what junk the M96 engine and its successors were --- and then went home afterwards and praised those cars to the heavens. End of rant, as always, thanks for reading!

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Depr starts from a 'basis'. Someone, somewhere bought every 996 'new' with the exception of the lease cars. Even then someone, somewhere bought the car off lease. If you want to ignore the MSRP, and just go by some arbitrary point in time, we can play that. Like the accountant said when asked; 'what is 2 plus 2? He replied; 'what would you like it to be?'

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Sorry, but no. You could have Eschewed Obfuscation(cut out the bloviating) and left plenty of room for expanded coverage of the GT2. I do tech writing sometimes for pretty complex networks, and we get edited all the time. Just like coders from back in the 80s, it's amazing what can be stuffed into a few dozen paras. Try fewer adverbs, and less - well, drayma. Except, you are working toward a goal of selling oil, wristwatches, and Chebbys, so I guess some of the auto-blog-worthy polysyllables are understandable. Accuracy and clarity over style, unless of course, you are working on the Great American Novel.

My lord, I haven't seen the 996 forum this up in arms since the days of Ben Choi insisting that the E46 M3 was better than a C4S running "steamrollers" in the rear. I've read Jack's stuff for years on various sites (usually TTAC) and I'm not entirely sure why some take such offense to his writing style or thoughts. In the short term the 996 isn't going to be a collectible car...in the long term it will probably do just fine. I do question where the stuff about the fading paint, HVAC, and stereo problems comes from...never heard of any of those problems on a large scale. Also the high cost of maintenance--I always say that if it wasn't for that one time my 996 needed a new engine, it would be among the cheapest cars I've ever owned. Anyone bitching about the cost to keep a 996 going should try any BMW that doesn't start with a Z or a 3. Anyway, to Jack I'd say "not a bad article, man, though not your best" and to the inmates in the 996 forum I would say "calm your ****, it's just one's guy's opinion even though he's probably not that far off from the truth". Does anyone really want to raise their hand and say that they bought their 996 as an investment in anything other than having a good time?

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Reader feedback says otherwise. As much as it would personally amuse me to pen extended Aspie stats-vomit regarding the GT2, the market for that is utterly miniscule. The biggest car media presence in the world is Top Gear, which is 100% fake, 100% staged, and contains no digestible facts. The biggest car media presence in the US is the Motor Trend video series, which in terms of intellectual merit makes Top Gear look like the internal factory manuals for a McLaren F1 car. You will recall that nobody reads tech writing for any reason other than a proverbial gun of poverty and joblessness pointed at their heads. Compare the relative popularity of Khan Academy and "Pewdiepie" if you need further demonstration. I coded in assembler when I was ten years old so I fully understand how to communicate with people who are on the spectrum, people who get physically uncomfortable unless every sentence contains a measurement, ratio, or empirical datum. With respect, there's no point in writing to those people. You have your own outlets. Why would you come to R&T and read my specific thoughts about the metallic composition of the early M96 engine blocks when you can discuss it right here with other people who share that particular obsession? Listen, I have plenty of love for floor-staring, auto-didact, socially-awkward people who will interrupt a pleasant conversation to correct somebody's offhand statement about the transmission ratios on a 911SC. I'm one of those people. But that's not the overall R&T audience, so while I appreciate your advice I can't take it to heart.

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No, the assertion was that buying a 996 is somehow financially comparable to the wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. In other words colossal. Someone buying a 996 in the last couple of years for 20k and selling it in the next couple of years should be able to get close to the price back assuming they took care of it and nothing major happened (accident, engine failure, breaking 100k, etc..). That also assumes, of course, that you are someone that knew what you were looking at and didn't wrecklessly over pay to start with. If $5k over a few years, which pretty well seems average, is an epic financial wreck, then owning any Porsche (or any higher end car) is the wrong decision and that is the root of the problem. It is the owner, not the car. If you can't handle that kind of drain, then a $20k toy car is simply a stupid financial decision regardless of the type of car. Buying a 996 now and thinking it is going to suddenly appreciate is also a colossally stupid mistake. Again, however, the fault is with the person not doing their due diligence and not the car. It's no different than a fool that dumps their money into a stock because someone said it was good without bothering to research it themselves. You find me a pattern of people NOW buying 996s for prices that will lose significant value (baring the "normal" things that cause value loss) after a couple years of ownership and I'll concede your point. The simple fact, however, is that you can't buy a 996 for that kind of price (or we are back to you being incredibly stupid to do so given what the average 996 sells for). So yes looking at a specific point in time (now) is the critical element to the assertion of if buying a 996 is a financial wreck or not.

Alrighty

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Yes, and I ack that. You sell 'timepieces' and Camaros. I get it. I stand by my point. Fewer adverbs, and honorable mention of the value proposition that is the GT2. It will appreciate nicely at some point in the future. Frankly, I just don't like your writing style. My cross to bear. OBTW, I taught ASM-370 for a while. Not fun, but it paid well.

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I don't think i need to explain where the comment came from. It's pretty clear that you are quite mad, hence this topic you started - asking a man to be fired from his job because you don't like his writing style.

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I don't agree. I've had plenty of "20k toys" that didn't cost me a fortune to run. Not even close actually. AND I HAD AN E30 AWD CAR! lol My other toys were getting tires and brakes thrown at them. I did once have to replace the head gasket on my subaru, but this was after doubling the wheel horsepower and torque of the thing, and its was a $2500 job - at shop rates - That car still runs top notch today since I replaced it. The 996 is amazing machine. Drives like no other 20k sports car. But to say that $5k over a few years is acceptable...I dunno, sure, if its just tires, oil and gas, but anything more than that, no, shouldn't be happening. IMO, of course.

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I can't help it if you refuse to see the title as hyperbole. I'm not angry with Jack because I disagree with his article or writing style. I think his direct responses to me have been overblown and rude but, as I've said repeatedly, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And if you really think I believe he should be fired then you've just chosen to ignore anything I've written. -Eric

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Giant rust buckets, but damn those are fun cars! My last one leaked like a sieve and had body work done with masking tape (seriously!) and I ended up driving it around with nothing but a driver seat for the interior. After sinking a ton of work into it trying to bring it back to life (they put a ton of lipstick on that pig ) I finally gave up on it when the heat hose blew. Simple and relatively cheap fix, but it was the breaking point. I still miss it though. The first one I had turned out to have rusted clean through both A pillars For on going work I agree, but other than exceptional cases it seems to be that when picking up a decent 996 that it typically requires about $5k over the first year or two to get it up to snuff and make it a solid car. Some are more, some are less. After that, however, they do tend to just need fluids and rubber. Back when I was in the e30 game you could pick up an iX between $2500 and $5k. On the lower end you'd have to expect about $1500 to $2k of work if you weren't DIYing (talk about an easy DIY car though!). $5k in a year or 2 on a $20k car seems a lot better to me than $2k in the same time on a $2500 car. Especially on the iX cars that number could go way up when you get into it and find rust issues that need to be dealt with (I was about 10k all in on that last one when I gave up). Regardless, I'm not trying to argue that the 996 is a cheap car to own (though I don't think it's that bad). Just that it is far from the financial wreck that was claimed. You're certainly an exceptional case where it has cost you far more than the average 996 owner, but the catastrophic failures are still exceptions rather than the rule. Sucks for the unlucky ones like yourself no matter what though.

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There are plenty of $20K toys, especially those of Japanese origin, that are cheaper to maintain than a 996. They break less and parts are cheaper. The real problem, IMHO, stems from people talking about the 996 like it's a $20K car. Yes, you can pick up a 996 today for about the same price as a Miata but that doesn't mean the 996 is as cheap to maintain or repair. Oddly enough, this is actually a point in Mr. Baruth's article with which I agree (although he'd probably argue otherwise just to distance himself from me). I actually wish used high end cars were sold under a banner that said, "just because you can afford it doesn't mean you can afford it." Not so long ago, Ferrari 308s were downright cheap; relatively speaking. But, have you ever looked at the cost of maintaining one? Even much maligned 348s are a small fortune to maintain. My words of caution aren't limited to exotics either. The same can be said of e65 7 series Bimmers; especially those outfitted with air suspensions, w220 S-Class Mercedes, and other big luxury sedans. Like all of these cars, 996's were expensive when new for a reason; more than just because of the badge on the frunk. I'm not saying it's a money pit but it is matter of perspective. Yes, as you pointed out, diligence is key but, unfortunately, many of the 996's on the market today have traded hands a few times. In most cases, it's nearly impossible to know whether you're buying a well cared for model or one that was driven hard and put away wet. Even if a buyer is luck enough to get a well cared for model, there's no denying that older cars break over time; whether from use or lack thereof. My $.02, -Eric

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yup

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Except for the fact that literally the first words that you see for this thread and that you wrote are "Why Jack Baruth should be fired from R&T" with no /s or other hint in the actual writing style of your post to suggest anything but seriousness. That you later had to clarify it was "hyperbole" intimates that you made a poor selection of words to convey your meaning and are now defending it for some inscrutable reason.

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Such a great drivers car. That thing was a tank in our Canadian winters. not quite Subaru capable, but very close. Once I felt the snow coming through the floors on one really bad snow storm, I knew she was going to be out to pasture that spring. Other than that though, it didnt really cost me that much to keep on the road. Obviously if I was to fix the rust, it would have cost as much as the Porsches rebuild. But damn, what a car. for a car made in 1988 it drove better than my 2000 ford focus or my 1995 Honda Accord at the time. My friend drove it to pick up his GF as I was parked behind him in his driveway one night, and I think it was a month later he traded in his VW for a 335is as he was so impressed with such an old car, a new one would be even better....

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Yeap and this is why I disagree with his assertions on the matter. He implies that it is somehow specific to the 996 when it's not. Certainly and my point is that if $5k or so constitutes a money pit for a 15+ year old high end car that you are getting $60k+ less than what it originally sold for, then the financial issues are the buyer's fault and not the car's. Yeap which is why we tell people coming in looking for general advise or about a specific car that they should expect and account for that $5k over the first year or so. My view is that when buying any toy (which is what the 996 is no matter how someone tries to spin it) you have to go in just being able to walk away from a total loss where you can't get more than scrap value for it. If you ever get in the position where you are mortgaging your future by cashing out your 401k for a new motor (yes we have seen such an example!), then you as the owner have just utterly failed yourself and it is not the fault of the car.

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That's a beauty, sorry she is gone Our first was a 90 Black/Black sedan and the second was a 88 Red/Black coupe. The first one I knew was a rust bucket when I bought it, but didn't realize the frame was compromised. It kicked out unexpectedly on a gravel road (I was actually driving appropriately that day compared to how I normally bombed down that road too!) hit the berm on the side head on and it actually flew sideways about 30' before landing high centered on the berm. Yanked it off with my Escape and drove it 30 miles to my body shop with it feeling like the alignment was off. Turned out the front control arms were both broken, steering rack was bent, and that's when we found the separated A pillars. Body shop was shocked I was able to drive it at all It was my wife that wanted that first one as she likes her e90. With the e90 I never got the "ultimate driving machine" thing (though when I took it through an AutoX class I started hating it less). I got it in the e30 though. Damn fun car

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I stand behind everything I've written. Most, I think, saw it for the hyperbole it was -- knowing that the suggestion was absurd on its face; making further explanation unnecessary. If you are hell bent on reading something insidious in the title, then that's the way you're going to read it and nothing I say matters to you anyway. Thanks for your opinion. -Eric

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Okay, at this point I'm going to pull the ripcord on my participation in this discussion because you are starting to genuinely concern me. You are arguing with a version of me that you've made up out of whole cloth. You want me fired --- or you don't, it seems to depend on what page in the thread we're on. You want to connect with me on Instagram but you also say I've been rude and hateful. You call me thin-skinned but you also claim that I'm doing things deliberately to "distance myself from you". I honestly still don't know if your name is Sue or Eric. Why don't we just agree that I'm going to try to not upset you any more and you're going to calm down about the whole thing and everybody is going to enjoy their weekend. It's really not personal. You didn't design the 996. It's just a car. We can all chill a bit. Take care and enjoy your Porsche.

Eric, I think, sua sponte, you lock this thread up. It's been fun, but getting a little dead horse-ish.

To (sorta) return to Baruth's original point... Just had my 911 serviced at my long time local specialist/dealer. They told me they are currently buying every under 100K decent 996 they can get their hands on, and selling them just as fast. It's happening. Now.

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Jack, I'm actually starting to wonder whether you've attributed other people's comments to me or whether you've even read anything I've written (beyond the title). Please show me where in this thread (title aside) I made any comment about your right to your job; a comment which I've repeatedly stated was hyperbole -- you know, an exaggerated statement not meant to be taken literally . I criticized your article for being thin on content and questioned your attack on the 996 -- never once disputing that it's not collectible. BFD. My comment about IG was tongue in cheek since you followed your rant at me with an 'oh by the way, read my other article' type of comment. I'm sorry if you mistook that as my actual interest in connecting with you. As for "rude and hateful," I don't recall using the word hateful but I'm not about to sift through 8 pages of posts to dispute it. If I used the word, I'm sorry. I don't think you've been "hateful." I do, however, think your tone has been rude. I'm not sure why you linked those thoughts together since they aren't inherently conflicting concepts but... I called you thin skinned because of your initial rant about getting fired (which I explained in an earlier post to you). I never said you were "deliberately" distancing yourself. I said I agreed with something in your article (the one you said I didn't read) and at that point joked that you'd probably want to distance yourself from agreeing with me on anything. -Eric P.S. Have a great weekend.

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Please kill it already. It's been dead horse-ish for about 5 pages. -Eric

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At the top of the comments on the page there is a "Thread Tools" menu. As the thread starter you should have an option there to lock the thread.

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I checked that earlier. These are my only options: Show Printable Version Email this Page Subscribe to this Thread Add a Poll to this Thread I just sent a note to KC, too.

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Ahhh...E30...I miss mine...

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Damn I hope you aren't this much of an arrogant tool in real life. "I'm a tech writer" <> "I write filler for an ad-supported internet site". His mandate is to drive traffic. Yours is to be comprehensible. The 1200 words or it's cut is key here - the more hyperbole the better. It drives eyeballs. At least the poor sod isn't writing for a clickbait aggregator. 50x25 word paragraphs with pictures. And his article wasn't even that bad. He could have got an easy 1200 words out of an article about hysterical owners saying that you can't buy an M96 powered vehicle without immediately paying 000's to drop the engine to fix a problem that impacted low single digit percentages shooting themselves in the foot for any kind of appreciation. Instead he tried to write a (slightly) humorous piece that looked like an aggregated week of people moaning in here.

Locking this thread. Sue/Chris, send me a PM if you want it to be reopened.