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YOUR RESEARCHAnother 996 has passed away...
Leading reported evidence
Fill with silicates
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The silicon levels will tell me this, since Dreibond is an RTV, it is filled with silicates that show up in UOA.
Leading evidence: 'Fill with silicates' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check back' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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I also swapped brake pads and tires when I was doing it and the whole process was about 1:15 for everything without hurrying.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I find AMSOIL AMO 10W40 is a great oil with awesome UOA - used @ 28C (83 F) ambient temps and it's good for 7.5 track hours until it shears just below a 40 weight....
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Marvel Mystery Oil, of course, but only when used rectally.
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Suggestion
Check back with us in another week - after a six-pack of Mickey's...
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now if you were tracking in the 90's I don't know what oil I'd recommend - a thicker oil would certainly flow @ hot ambient temps (and hotter internal temps) - i'd recommend the amsoil dominator 15w50 for really hot climates (90F ++) that can also be used daily
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Suggestion
Is anyone repairing these cranks yet I had damage on my original motor but was told by various people it was not repairable due to the case hardening??
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My pride and joy of the last 5 years is gone...
During my last DE event at the Mont-Tremblant track, the oil pump failed, starving the crankshaft which inevitably failed and brought along piston #1 and #4 with it.
The car stalled on me right on the track, and that was it, no warning whatsoever.
The rebuilt cost is obviously too much considering the value of the car.
I thought I'd share this with guys who will understand the pain...
Now considering what my next Porsche will be.
It's been quite a ride! Farewell dear 996....
Sorry to hear this but that engine might be salvagable by the right person (a gearhead that is willing to do the work for $1/hr). Any consideration to sell the car as-is?
Wow. These cars are junk, that was my first reaction. I know it's not entirely true but what a joke.
I just bought a 996 last weekend to take over autox and DD duties. It'll probably blow up in 5 miles.
All option are on the table and selling it as is is at the top of my list. Also considering the Renegade Hybrids LS conversion and turn that thing into a full blown racer.
Interested in buying the car as is?
Wasn't there a thread a week or so ago about a used motor for under $10k? Some of us had questions about the ad text vs what the pictures showed, but maybe worth looking into as a possibility of a not too expensive option to get it back on the road...
Did you have a x51 baffle or equivalent? Oil used for DE and mileage on it/OCI interval?
Just want to make sure other newbies shouldn't be freaking out for the wrong things. There's been many guys tracking their cars for awhile now with different outcomes.
Personally, a stock 996 out of the box(except Mezger motors) weren't made to handle track duties. However there are certain items you can address to make them more track worthy.
Roller 996 with track use isn't going to be at the top of anyone's "must have" list. Suggest you find an engine in a breakers yard and put it back to life. Yeah, it's not cheap, and there's some labor ahead of you but The Track shall exact its revenge on those who visit. I know from experience.
If it's Cobalt blue, and has a nice list of options you might get a few thou for it.
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https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/800x600/porscheolblue_ef25935339208dfa18bb81a74f47acf2309fafdd.jpg
You sound like a good daddy kfb! 17 year olds will always test our love and patience. Hate to hear he lost his life on the race track giving his all for your love and devotion. All Ol' Blue ever wanted was to make you happy. (sniffle sniffle)
uggg... ok, I'll stop now.
Hope you find a solution with putting him in good hands. Maybe he'll get a heart transplant and live again. Here's wishin' you the best!!!
Best of luck going forward OP.
A proper 3.8 or 4.0 FSI would put you at or close to GT3 tier power. Add all the numbers together and it still is less than an OEM MKII GT3.
I'm going to try and steer clear of the track near term and increase track duty as my FSI build savings acct grows... which will take a long time
Classic.. The oil pump didn't fail..
The oil failed, just like it always does.
Hate to hear it, but I know a guy that can fix it :-)
Failure is just the opportunity to begin again, just more intelligently.
There are alternatives now instead of the overpriced Renegade kits.
Guys have been piecing together their own kits with the help of some main parts from these guys:
http://www.texasperformanceconcepts.com/
Either that or put it away for a year or two, I'm sure you'll see LS kits from Taiwan for like 1/3 the price.
My wife needs a new Land Speed Car. She's ready to go back to the track, and after I finished the latest R51 combination revisions that make power past 8K RPM, she is turning up the heat on me... We both love blue :-)
Viscosity loss due to thermal breakdown, which occurs after the oil shears IS what kills these engines on the track.
I've been seeing the same things a few dozens times per year, and we've logged the issues, catching them while they are occurring.
The rest will lead to a debate that I will not engage in. :-)
Is anyone repairing these cranks yet I had damage on my original motor but was told by various people it was not repairable due to the case hardening??
You have to use an oil that is rated for the higher temperatures of the track. Especially this time of year, with this engine. XP9 can handle the temps and is good for about 750 track miles. You can use a clean 5 gallon bucket (makes sure there are no plastic shavings) and a filter like the one below to swap back and forth between it and preferably DT40 for everyday driving. I pour the oil from the 5 gallon bucket to a 2 quart jug when I'm refilling. I also swapped brake pads and tires when I was doing it and the whole process was about 1:15 for everything without hurrying.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00QS...236_SY340_QL65
Have we had a tribologist look at any of these? I mean, it sounds reasonable but it would be nice to get someone with some lube expertise to check. My kid is a lube engineer for P-66, I'm sure I could persuade her to look at the damage and see what she thinks.
Wow, that sucks. Sorry to hear. Like others have said, you can pick up a used engine for around $10K, if you want to get it back on the road/track. Count on about 18 hours labour for the swap.
I have a year 2000 996 engine with some physical damage. Theoretically, you could make yours right with mine, since mine did not 'die in anger' like yours. I can put it on a pallet for you for very little money. I am in Canada too, which is very convenient, border-crossing-wise.
IMO: do you have an interest in this project? I have a 3.4 in need of a home, but with physical damage. You and I and the sad blue car are all in Canada. I could bring it to you in a small trailer if you like.
-Do not hot lap the car. Skip at least one session between runs.
-Drive he car off the track after the cool down lap, and take it for a few miles outside the track to allow it to cool slowly, but thoroughly before the next session. (Engines heat up after shut down when they come off the track)
-Use a REAL race oil... Meaning it maintains viscosity at extreme high temps. It doesn't shear from a 40 grade to a 28 grade when the oil temp hits 260+. This means an oil that has a dispersant package that makes it good for a track weekend only.
-Change said oil before and after the track
-Monitor oil temps with a stand alone gauge with the sender in the sump.
-Upgrade the oil bypass valve and spring to the 997 part number unit.
The list goes on.....
Wow... that sounds like a lot to do to keep a 996 alive... Does the oil really shear that much in 1 day?
Respect your opinion, but these measures suggest the 996 is inherently lousy.
The 996 is a fun car to take to the track, but is not really a track car. It is well documented from Porsche that the M96 is not a track motor. I have one of Jake's motors and love it, but I still don't beat on it like I did with my Honda motors. In my opinion if you want to be "serious" with tracking a Porsche you have three options: GT3 or any model that is not based on M96/M97 or willingness to continually spend money on the M96/M97 motor.
And it is stupid expensive (oil change wise) to even play with these motors on the track. XP5/DT40 changes gets very expensive. Lucikly, I only track about three to five times a year.
Stupid question, but is Auto-X considered "track"? Or is it total apples to oranges?
Reason I ask is I'd love to do some Auto-X, but sure don't want to load up with DT40 every time I zip around in a parking lot.
DT40 was never developed for the track... I just had to scold a new engine owner for taking his new engine to the track (DE, not an AX) on DT40, it lived through it. He never read my directives (why do I even waste my damn time?) and did sessions in blazing heat with only a few hundred miles on the engine. He should have been on XP9 or XP6.
That said, AX is not occurring on a public highway, so I consider it track use. The benefit is the oil never has a chance to get to a high enough point to shear and die, due to a loss of viscosity.
I've only received one phone call from an owner who had an M96 engine fail during AX, ever... This proves further that the issues are NOT G force rooted, but lie with elevated oil temps.
If someone does this to my Porsche when I'm not around (see video below) could it cause the oil to shear and damage the engine?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=437_1431276344
And no 5CH3LL, and I'm not twisted and desperate enough to make love to machinery! Ha!
they definitely are... I find AMSOIL AMO 10W40 is a great oil with awesome UOA - used @ 28C (83 F) ambient temps and it's good for 7.5 track hours until it shears just below a 40 weight.... you need an oil with a high HTHS (high temp high shear) value
now if you were tracking in the 90's I don't know what oil I'd recommend - a thicker oil would certainly flow @ hot ambient temps (and hotter internal temps) - i'd recommend the amsoil dominator 15w50 for really hot climates (90F ++) that can also be used daily
you need a GT3 radiator also to keep coolant temps down... I personally have removed the rear belly pans to allow for more air flow - although this helps this is only one part of the overall solution as the effect of lowering temps is minimal but every bit helps
I'm on some BMW forums as well and there are some who are worried with the high oil temps of their turbo engines (rightfully so). It always amazes me when guys express concerns that their oil temp gauge is sitting at 240-250* (or higher) for extended periods during the summer.
Then internet experts will chime in and say "completely normal, BMW engineers know what they're doing".
What is lousy about it? Porsche never claimed the M96/0x engines were suitable for the track, in fact they have been very clear and consistent that they are not suitable. The "standard" 996 had to hit mileage and environmental targets that the older cars did not have to hit.
Porsche did not develop the Metzger engine because the engineers were sitting around with nothing else to do nor were they looking for ways to divest themselves of excess income. They were developed because they needed a race engine and the M96/0x was not suitable. Just because people choose to use the engine for something it was never designed for does not constitute lousy design, it constitutes lousy usage. You can use a toaster to heat your bath water as well but I wouldn't suggest it.
The M96/0x can be made into a very nice race engine but don't blame Porsche for its weaknesses as such.
[QUOTE=Flat6 Innovations;13415368]
-Do not hot lap the car. Skip at least one session between runs.
-Drive he car off the track after the cool down lap, and take it for a few miles outside the track to allow it to cool slowly, but thoroughly before the next session. (Engines heat up after shut down when they come off the track)
-Use a REAL race oil... Meaning it maintains viscosity at extreme high temps. It doesn't shear from a 40 grade to a 28 grade when the oil temp hits 260+. This means an oil that has a dispersant package that makes it good for a track weekend only.
-Change said oil before and after the track
-Monitor oil temps with a stand alone gauge with the sender in the sump.
-Upgrade the oil bypass valve and spring to the 997 part number unit.
The list goes on.....
Jake,
I can't stand this bs again. As usual you praise the product you're selling and claim everything else is a piece of ...You keep laughing at oil from Walmart, I mentioned it before in another tread. It so happens that I'm getting close to Ga now, on my way back home from Road America in Wi. I raced my bike there last weekend on Mobil 1 oil from Walmart. I race on average every week or every other week, same bike, same engine every time which turns between 10-14k rpm most of the time. Sometimes I race in extreme heat at Palm Beach, Homestead Miami Speedway or Daytona. My last engine lasted 2 whole seasons before the transmission blew up. Crank shaft and bearings were still in perfect shape. If you wanted Porsche engine to turn the same amount of times as my race bike engine with extreme force, it would probably take years on track. I spend most time on track leaning on one side or another during turns, that doesn't help with lubrication either. In such extreme racing conditions I change my oil every 300 miles. I've been using Mobil 1 for Porsche as well and this is what recommend to my customers. Yes, it's Mobile 1 from Walmart
Believe me, if anyone has tested this oil it is me! Porsche (and other) engines which break on track would break using your oil too. It's usually due to wear and tear, it could also happen on the street if you ride it hard enough. If you ever want to take a car to the track you should have a newly refreshed engine with new bearings, not a high mileage engine used every day on the street.
I've spent all my life on a race track, I've participated in hundreds of races and until this day I've never seen any racer taking their car or motorcycle off the track to the street to cool the engine off. Engine cools down after the last lap when checker flag is waved, you take your hand or foot of the gas and let your engine brake. Then water pump turns faster and engine is not getting fuel, you reduce gear to keep relatively high rpms and reduce fuel burn. Engine has enough time to cool at this point. Later, if you need to speed up you do it gently and get off the track.
That's the whole philosophy!
Hi Martin,
We've missed you, where have you been? Do you have any before and after UOA's you can share with us from tracking with m1? Preferably in an actual car but your bike would be fine if that's all you have.
Also, I'm confused how you claim that the 996 is a ticking bomb that you are scared to drive and yet you berate us for using oil that has increased zinc and phosphorous content. Wouldn't you want a little better wear package to prevent engine and variocam pad wear and maybe "extend the fuse" a few extra miles?
I've been busy racing
I don't need to analyze my oil before or after because the fact that my bike still runs speaks for itself. There are as many different analysis results as labs, each one is different and will tell you different things. Even Jake said so in recent tread. My experience is based on facts not myths.
As to m96 m97 engines the fact is they are constructed totally wrong, they should have never been used in any Porsches. But this is why I'm in business! Endurance is as mere as performance, totally wrong design.
Believe it or not my friend from Chicago used to have a 993, for 8 years/200k miles he has never changed his oil! Just topped it off with Mobile 1. One day he noticed a puddle of oil underneath the car, it turned out that it was a rusty oil filter! He drove it all year long in Chicago and salt finally caused the filter to rust. In the end, his car got flooded and water got inside his engine. Even after being flooded his engine was still running with water mixed with oil. You could hear knocking noise from connection rod bearings but it still ran! Porsche doesn't make cars like this anymore because they would not make money! Producing a GT3 engine and m96/97 engine is the same cost for factory, but because gt engine doesn't brake as much it doesn't make financial sense. Look at the new Porsche engines, 3l turbo motors in Carreras to minimalize cost of production and maximize sales.
This post got way off topic.
the 3.0 turbo is not to save money but because of federal mandates. If they don't change the laws we are going to see all hybrids in the future or we are going to go through another decline in performance like the mid 70's.
I kind of get the whole older is better and cooler, but every new engine Porshe makes is better than the one before by most objective measures. More power, more efficient, and longer lasting.
the M96 isn't that much a pos. it can take a beating and still go.
look at all the guys driving around with scored cylinders. I was RACING my car with cyl 4 & 6 completely toast. I could have probably driven another couple of years on that motor in that condition. just add oil.
Without data, one can never confirm when oil, should be changed, or how different environments impact the engine. I live from data, from the collection of it, to organizing it, and making changes based from it.
Hell, I even use UOA to determine if my engine builders are using the specified amount of sealants to assemble the engines. The silicon levels will tell me this, since Dreibond is an RTV, it is filled with silicates that show up in UOA.
Everything matters, when you give a damn. Nothing matters when you don't.
My customers seldom come from here, but I will say their numbers are increasing in the last 3-4 months.
I need to do more sales posts, since RL went up on all advertisers/ sponsors I can't afford not to.
People here are generally of the DIY thinking, and I have nothing to offer them.
Though I'm pretty sure Jake won't tell us, it would be interesting to see what percentage of work Jake gets from the forums. My gut tells me not too much (2-3% tops would be my guess) as many/most of us are die hard diy'ers and most don't experience CEF... In any case, he is a board sponsor so...
I don't even know... I never ask where people come from, I don't care. Most do say "so and so referred me to you" and that was usually a previous customer.
How they get here doesn't matter, so we don't ask. I do see some screen names here these days that match up with email addresses of those on our list, but again, I don't ask, or care if they came from here.
What does matter is that they leave impressed enough to send the next guy this way. Thats the only thing that I care about.
That said, lets get back on track, hi- jack over!
A new initiative is about to be released that will help the DIY people here more than anything... One of my companies, The Knowledge Gruppe LLC has been tasked with providing tech support for all products, as well as articles and videos.
You'll hear more about it when the time comes.
