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YOUR RESEARCHSHIFTING QUESTION
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BTW, I used data to determine it was the fast way and FWIW I’m also a national certified instructor blah blah.
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Mostly i would change between 3rd and 4th, ocasionally 2nd.
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It sometimes gets a bad rap for being expensive which I suppose it true but it really changes the car.
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I just run 6th for fuel economy and if I want a lil' more go, then I stick to 5th, but rarely 4th at 65MPH+.
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FWIW: I used to row the gears performing spectacular sounding heal/toe downshifts into corners (with and w/o the clutch even) but then I learned better in using the brakes at 100% to slow the car down quickly and while doing so engaging the appropriate gear for my end speed.
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I probably wouldn't have needed to use first gear if I had been using DOT tires, but with street tires I had to get the speed way down and then power out.
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Adding solid motor mounts helped but didn't solve the problem.
It occurred to me yesterday that I subconsciously cruise on the highway in 4th gear pretty often without upshifting to 5th, or 6th since the engine just purrs at highway speed in 4th and am already cruising above the speed limit of 60.
When I remember that I am in 4th, I skip 5th and go from 4th to 6th just to drop the revs (never hard on throttle, just cruising).
Do any of you guys do that and am I wrong in bypassing 5th?
Casual downshifting same skip of 5th.
Going a bit overboard, no? What's so excessive about it other than you might get a little more cabin noise?
I just run 6th for fuel economy and if I want a lil' more go, then I stick to 5th, but rarely 4th at 65MPH+.
And it shouldn't hurt anything by skipping gears, but never "good" practice I guess.
Bottom-line, do what you do.
I agree with NYCEBO. I am usually in 5th gear at highway speeds going up thru the gears. I believe what is more important is the rev matching on doew shifts for the car's health.
OK Let me ask this. Any of you guys track your car (or just drive spiritedly)? If so.... do you hit every gear on a decel into a turn? Bet you don't get great track times going 6, 5, 4, 3..... hell it would take half the straightaway just to downshift. You can shift 1 to 4, 2 to 5, 6 to 3....... your not going to hurt anything as long as you don't overrev in the high end and don't lug in the low end.
I agree with MikeZ. Heel/toe and matching revs is far more important. At the track, I regularly go from 4th to 2nd in hard corners. I just match the revs. Haven't replaced a clutch yet...or engine.
I admit to "daydreaming" and looking down to find myself at 4500 rpms im 4th, just cruising,but heck, I strve to keep my race car at 5500+ rpms the whole time, and haven't had engine issues. Like Choi says, it ain't gonna hurt it IMHO. I mean, what's worse, driving around at 4500 rpms or driving around a 2500 rpms?
Ive only done a handfull of track days, but i would be surprised if anyone gets into 6th, and probably rarely 5th.
You can hit 120MPH in 4th i think ( or close to it), and ive never seen a 1st gear corner.
Mostly i would change between 3rd and 4th, ocasionally 2nd.
Thats at Infineon, Thunderhill and Laguna Seca in the Novice run group
hair splitting. the wear between driving in 4th gear at 60mph than 6th gear at same mph... is nominal at best and easily overshadowed by where you drive the car, how you drive the car,e tc.
I actually do hit all the gears down shifting for a corner. For example going into turn 5 at Road America I rev match down shift from 5th to 4th, 4th to 3rd, and 3rd to 2nd all prior to turn it. It sounds like a lot, but in practice it actually happens very quickly and does not slow me down at all.
For me it is a real rhythm that I fall into and I am braking the entire time this is going on (while bliping the throttle at each downshift with the right side of my right foot)
+1
I have 85k on my car, and I hope to put at least the same again before I need a new motor. Cruising in 6th is just one of the things I do to prolong engine life.
Seriously, stop and ask yourself why you are doing this? Seems that every noob at the track wants to impress their instructor with their downshifting prowess. Instructors are quick to discourage this activity btw. Are you slowing the car down with each downshift approaching the corner or something (hopefully not). Approaching a corner you should be braking to reduce the cars speed and then rev match/downshift into the appropriate gear for the speed that you just slowed down too.
-Paul
real world what? instead of throwing out false claims, show us something like a car that resulted in an engine failure due to driving around in 4th gear on the freeway.
enjoy
Every engine has a lifespan. Partly it's the number of hours (which is what they measure for aircraft engines). Partly it's the number of revolutions which each cause a tiny amount of wear. So cruising at lower revs is one way to extend the life of the engine.
To back up Tippy's statement that higher gears extend engine life, here are two overdrive manufacturers and an article on overdrive, all of which state that overdrives (ie higher gearing) extend engine life and reduce wear.
Overdrive article
Ford overdrive unit
Tremec 5-speed add-on
False claim? I highly doubt. I could back the claim up for days, just read Simons (NNH) post above.
Engine failure? Probably not. Will revving an engine unecessarily with an existing problem send it to the grave quicker? Why yes.
I'm with Ray on this although it's different in different corners. Frequently the right thing to do is to just leave the clutch in and quickly run down through the gears. The 996 shifts great using that method. Just jumping from 5th (or whatever) to 2nd or 3rd will frequenly make it very hard to get into gear after the box gets hot. Likely not an issue on the street.
At Road America's T5, as mentioned by Ray, the fastest way into the corner is to hit every gear dropping the clutch in each gear. (sometimes I'll skip 3rd) It's a steep downhill you enter in 5th and turn in in 2nd. Dragging the back a little really helps settle the rear end and slow the car. BTW, this is my favorite track and my favorite corner.
Jim
So far on the street I regularly skip gears both on the way up and on the way down. As an example, when I pull out of the sidestreet by my house onto the main street, it's downhill, so I go first to third, and ofen to fifth after that. No point going through through second and fourth with a cold engine and gearbox. Similarly, If I'm toodling down the road in sixth gear, and I need to pass slower traffic, I rev match it down to fourth and away I go.
My opinion - On the street, skip gears all you want. It saves wear and tear on the arms and legs as well as the machinery. You ain't gonna hurt nothing on the street by skipping gears.
Now the track - I haven't done a track day yet with the six speed - my first is coming up in 9 days. In my old 5 speed 911 though, I'm with Paul - brake to the speed you want, match it into the gear you need, and you're done. If the track or corner, or whatevere doesn't warrant it then why do it - unnecessary wear and tear in my opinion. As far as gettingthe box hot and trouble shifting - it was never a problem with my 911. You have to double clutch of course.
Jasper,
FWIW I skip gears shifting up on the street all the time.
When you get your 996 to the track try downshifting as Ray and I have suggested. Don't let the clutch out in each gear. Just run through the gears on your way down. You might find you like it.
Jim
Saying you're on the highway in 4th is half the picture. How fast are you going?
You can hit 70mph in 4th gear a@ 4k RPM - that's fine.
If you're doing 85 - not so much. I usally keep the car between 3-4k RPM while on the highway, whatever gear I'm in that puts me in that sweet spot is were I'm going.
Riad!
As I mentioned in my first post, it's about 60-65 mph and I guess that you put the word's "sweet spot" to my subconcious reason for cruising at the rpm where hitting the throttle makes the car launch while howling like a banshee!
This has nothing to do with impressing anyone (no one else in the car to impress). It has far more to do with a driving rhythm around the track. As far as your statement
"Are you slowing the car down with each downshift approaching the corner or something (hopefully not)."
As I indicated in my original post I am rev matching the downshifts while braking at the same time. It may sound like a lot to someone who does not track their car, but in practice it happens very quickly and it helps insure that I don't screw the pooch with a mechanical over rev. As far as your assertion that this is a "novice" way around the track I have watched a lot of drivers that are faster and more experienced than me do it the very same way. Even F1 cars (with sequential automatic transmissions) hit each gear on the way down. I will occasionally skip a gear on the way down, but I prefer to touch them all.
Now the street is an entirely different story. I skip gears going up and down all the time.
hmm. You are entitled to your opinion. Also, didn't mean to call you a noob. However, why not and ask this question on the Race/DE forum about sequentially downshifting through the gears approaching a corner. FYI: I am normally at the track up to 2 weekends a month and instruct, not that it matters.
FWIW: I am pretty sure that telemetry data would prove that if your are threshold braking right up to the corner and only downshift once your are likely faster than trying to do say 2 heel-toe downshifts while slowing down. Let's say the two approaches prove absolutely equal due to a fabulously coordinated driver with perfectly crisp downshifts, isn't it still wearing out the equipment when the brakes are really doing all the work? Now, I have never had any trouble getting my car's into gear so I am not familiar with a 996 gearbox heating up issue.
Actually Paul the topic has been debated at length on the racing/DE forum. I think it all started with a Leh Keen video where he goes through the gears when downshifting. There were different opinions but I came away first trying and then adopting a go through the gears technique. I'm not suggesting letting the clutch out at every shift except in special circumstances like T5 at Road America. Your brake bias is so forward in the 996 that just a little bit of drag in the back really helps in that corner. You have to be competent but not Alonso to get it all done in time. BTW, I used data to determine it was the fast way and FWIW I’m also a national certified instructor blah blah. I really don’t think you should knock it until you give it a fair shake. A side benefit is that it makes it almost impossible to hit the wrong gear.
Jim
Jim,
Jim, Sounds good. Sound a little like you your talking about a little engine trail braking to rotate the car (a little drag in the back) which is completely useful....Really curious about rowing the gears w/o releasing the clutch.. What exactly does that accomplish or benefit? (honest question here). Feel free to PM if your so inclined as I am genuinely interested in things that I don't know.
FWIW: I used to row the gears performing spectacular sounding heal/toe downshifts into corners (with and w/o the clutch even) but then I learned better in using the brakes at 100% to slow the car down quickly and while doing so engaging the appropriate gear for my end speed. Now, initiating the rotation of the car using either a trailing brake (or Left foot braking) or engine braking is another thing altogether and a good one at that.
Maybe it is just a preference thing... but I stand by the fact that you are wearing out your equipment much less doing it my way.
BTW: Jim, I think my car is quickly and accidentally becoming your clone...3.6 X51, etc
Wow, those must be some fast tracks. I probably wouldn't have needed to use first gear if I had been using DOT tires, but with street tires I had to get the speed way down and then power out.
First off, congrats on the X51. I love the option. It sometimes gets a bad rap for being expensive which I suppose it true but it really changes the car.
As for running through the gears, in an enduro or even a 30 minute club race, the transmission would get hot enough that when skipping gears you would go to stick it in 2nd or 3rd and it would be like there was no gate. It just felt like mush. This only happened in high speed to low speed corners like 5th to 2nd shifts. Adding solid motor mounts helped but didn't solve the problem. A better grade of trans fluid didn't have much impact. Adjusting the cables did nothing. The only real solution to smooth shifting all the time was running through the gears. My mechanic explained it but I'm sure I'd quote him incorrectly. As I said before, I tried the method after the discussion on the racing/DE forum and was amazed how much smoother the shifting was. The side benefit was that you always know what gear you are in. Again, give it a try. It might not be for you. BTW, there are many corners where I skip gears. It all depends on what works best in a certain spot.
Jim
Paul,
They are pretty fast tracks.
Daytona has two different spots where you hit 6th. I hit a top speed there of 161. That's according to my data acq. The speedo read much higher. It's extra exciting because it's very rough banking and there's a wall a few feet to your right.
At Road America you're only in 6th for a couple of moments on the front straight. In a stock car you won't get out of 5th but it is a very fast track.
At Brainerd you hit 6th on the mile long front straight and carry the speed through T1. In my 996 I downshift to 5th for T2 but that's almost as fast. In my cup car I leave it in 6th for both. Sort of crazy actually.
Jim
Jim,
Interesting stuff, something to keep in mind if I ever start having weird transmission probs. I know what you mean about the motormounts.. Sometimes 3rd is hard to find mid corner accelerating out of long sweeper in 2nd due.
The x51 is coming by way of a new 3.6 being put into my 99 where a 3.4 used to breathe and live.
Cheers man
I never hit 6th on the track. I'm lucky if I hit 6500 RPM in 4th -> 120+ MPH. Most of the technical tracks use 2-4. Maybe 5th. I've never been on one that required 6th, but others may have. Also, you rev match per shift, so 4-3 gets one blip, 3-2 gets another. And this only takes a fraction of a second - much shorter than the time it takes to actually slow the car at those speeds.
So going from 5-4-3-2 is pretty simple, and effective, and doesn't affect lap times negatively.
Check this video out to catch a 4-3 / 3-2 down shift at 2:05-2:08:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrEpfVV14gc
At 2:08 the car comes out of a corner in 2nd, runs up to redline, then to 3rd for a brief instant, then back to 2nd for the next turn. Sometimes I hit the rev limiter trying to push the RPMs really high after the turn in (Turn 12).
-td
