Broken Porsche, broken heart

The start of the story. 2 hours ago now. Picked up a friend from the airport, ten minutes later we are on the side of the highway. Heard what sounded like a flapping noise from the rear of the car, as I began to slow and pull over to investigate the dash lights up like a christmas tree, motor stops. Made it safely to the shoulder. Tried once to restart just a wrrrrrr. On the phone to roadside assistance, called a cab and left my DREAM car with the hazard lights flashing waiting for the tow. Very busy highway so waited for the ride in the car, getting out and into the cab fluid bleeding from the rear..... No idea nor do I really want to speculate what happened. Just sharing the experience and will leave a kind of blog here on the service the problem and anything after the fact that may be of some help to other folks here on the forum. Plus it may help my current state, I am bummed big time. My holidays started today and had planned on my first long drives. Geoff. btw, '03 C2 black/black with warranty left.... thank goodness.

Sorry to hear this Geoff. Good thing is that you still have warranty though. Good luck with the repair.

nothing to worry about since car is under warranty. have it flat bed to a reputable dealer. they'll fix it up in a few days.

I know you said you don't want to speculate, but I can't help it - part of my personality my wife can't stand. Sounds like broken alternator belt except for the fluid. Did you take a peak at the engine at all?

Man oh man - that hits close to home. I work with Geoff you see. He got his 2003 about three months before I got my 2002. His ride was a creampuff - low very low miles - one owner since new etc. Now this! Perhaps it's a minor issue like a belt, but my gut tells me it's a catastrophic failure. No worries though, he's under full factory warranty and will come out ahead in the end with a reman motor. Here's a question: Do the reman motors 996 motors have the new style upgraded big intermediate shaft sprocket from the 997? Here's another question: I have exactly one year left on my CPO, 42K miles on the clock - should I be worried ? Tell me again how many of these cars have 100K miles on them and are still running.

Well I guess you better drive the Sh** out of it or it might blow. I have come to believe that the car blows up when it has an owner that *****-foots it. There are a hand full of 100K+ cars out there. It's just hard to find being that these cars sit way more than there running P.S. My condolences to GNR996, I hope your vac isn't F*****

I tend to believe the same thing, but the problem is that when you run these cars hard, you're into triple digit speeds pretty quick. I have a heavy-ish foor anyway, so hopefully my style of driving is conducive to along and healthy engine life. But crap me! I work with this guy and we have the same car !

I'd stay away from him for the next few weeks. At least until the curse is lifted

I have 103,000 miles and I drive the crap out of my car and literally visit the redline every day. I drive several times a day, too, and have driven across the country a couple times at high speed. I also believe you gotta drive them to keep them running good. It's always the garage queens that have the issues - plus light-footed driving, avoiding high rpms, and lugging around in top gear - are the cars that always have issues and burn a lot of oil and crap like that.

Not much more to report, car spent the day at the shop, late phone call from them revealed nothing. Will know more tomorrow. Like Jasper said, worst case I get a new motor and that is a good thing. Had just made some moves to do the supension too, think it will be the Pss9's and the GT3 sway bars. Guess that will have to wait as this whole ordeal with the motor maybe a couple of weeks. Back to drinking for me...... Thanks all for kind words and support. G

Yep... Having owned many p-cars over the last 20 yrs, I can confidently state that the worst thing for these cars is to baby them. Actually, I feel that way about any car. It's always been my experience that a well maintained car driven regularly will outlast/perform on that's been babied. after all, how many honda accords are babied and look at the rep they have.

Sorry to hear about this, Geoff. Hopefully MCL will have it back on the road in a hurry for you. Good luck!

Here's a little RMS-related anecdote for you about why these cars should be driven. Bought my '02 Targa from a high-line used car dealer in June '06. It had been sitting on their lot since Nov. '05 - 200 miles put on the car in that period. PPI at nearby P-car dealer showed dampness at RMS. I tried to negotiate a replacement, used dealer wouldn't budge. Bought the car anyway. Drive it home. Next two days saw oil on the garage floor and said D**N! Couple of days later, apparently after the seal had re-moistened, the oil stopped. I have not had a SINGLE drop ever since and my local mechanic says the engine/transmission looks great! Daily driver and love it every minute!! Good luck with the repair.... Piccia

110k+ miles here and haven't really had any major problems. car is daily driven to school and work and im not the type to "baby" a car ... i say just enjoy the great cars and do what they were built for... and sorry about the the breakdown if that happened to me idk what i would do since mine is my only car...

Any update?

It's the IMS, new motor for me. No P-car for a couple weeks but a new motor and thats got to be good. I have asked that the X51 kit be installed so waiting to hear the cost and if they are willing. That will go along with the planned suspension upgrade nicely. Must say driving anything other then a Porsche seems dangerous now.......missing that handling you all know so well. When I do get back in I'm sure the Porsche magic will all come back, can't wait. Safe driving guys, G

I have an 03 with the "new" reman motor. I have 600 miles on it. It was the IMS too. The new motor is, well, SUPERB!!! You will love it. Even though I had only 21Km on the motor I paid for a new clutch ($650.00 for the parts no labor). The new clutch is much smoother. Enjoy the new motor.

Thanks, sure it will be great. Yes, will have a new clutch installed.

Did they explain to you how a seal (IMS) lead to a motor failure?

does the ref. engine has an updated IMS?

I think he means Intermediate Shaft failure, not the seal Shaft failure is sudden, and terminal - and happens too often

Hmm. Not heard of that one yet. No symptoms before it dies?

Usually you just hear something horrific behind you and it's all over. I think Brad said he'd seen one that someone had caught pre-destruction, but otherwise it was usually all over in a flash. This appeared in Total 911 Magazine http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf

Yeah but - this article says that the design was improved over the years, yet Geoff's engine was built in 2003 (at least the car was built in '03) so presumably it was one of the latest designs. The article also says that it was pretty much *only* the 3.4 litre cars that were affected - once again, Geoff's experience puts poop to that claim. Also, I have been told on this forum (so it has to be true) that the IMS sprocket/bearing design wasn't seriously changed until the 997 series cars. I'm not sure what to believe....so I'll make up my own theory. I believe that when these engines and cars are left in the garage for extended periods, the oil drains out of the IMS bearing, and it takes quite a while for the oil to get back up in there after a car is started. In cars that are driven every day on the other hand, the bearing always stays nice and oiled up, and therefore doesn't fail. Note that this is pure conjecture on my part. The total 911 article makes reference to the pin that holds the sprocket in place, and how it's failure is the root cause of the IMS grenade. I've heard another very reliable source tell me that he's seen many many M96 failures root caused by this pin failure. I wish we could find out more about the *exact* cause of Geoff's engine failure, but I'm guessing MCL will either stonewall any attempts to find out more, or they simply won't take the time to investigate. Oh well - blah blah blah.

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When I had my engine grenade on me from an IMS failure in February, the Service manager told me that they never hear what the specific cause is on each of these problems. Once replacement is approved, they take out your old engine, crate it and ship it back to Stuttgart for examination - case closed for the dealer. It is definitely not a nice sound to hear - sort of like a coffee can with assorted nuts and bolts rolling around in it! No warning...nothing, just the awful racket coming from the back end. This was on a 04 Anniversary Edn wtih about 20000 miles and she's as good as new now with the reman engine...had it back in a week from the time it was towed to the dealer to when I picked it up.

This appeared in Total 911 Magazine http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf That said, he and Steve say that, if your engine�s going to fail, there�s not much you can do to prevent it. Although Nick has his own pet theory: �Jonathan Palmer Motorsport has several 3.4-litre cars which are driven hard on the track every day,� he says. �These engines are running fine, whereas maybe those that have been driven more sedately seem to suffer problems!� I like it.....

Yea, those cars used by JP Motorsport get hammered. I've done two track days with them in the UK - and they give you a selection of cars to thrash, I mean drive , during your day on the track. The group I was with trashed a transmission on one car, and rearranged the front bumber on another So they do get a whole lot of high rev action 5 days a week. And that lends credence to the 'use it or lose it' theory

Sweet pics! One of these days I want to run in an open wheel car.

i would tend to agree with that statement. i abuse my car at the track and i am closing in on 100K...and with a supercharger.

? how is that funny? just wait until you get an RMS on your GT3 and start crying

You'd better get those Pecs slimmed down then! Those cars are a tight fit!

Cool! Thanks for the explanation!

Tomorrow the local P-car dealer has had my car two weeks. They still do not have an answer from Porsche regarding engine replacement. T o say I am pissed is an understatement,, both the dealer whom I have only been dealing with the service advisor up till now and Porsche cars both letting me down. Advisor not keeping me updated and me in the dark day to day. Having to make calls to the dealership being left on hold and my calls being misdirected is just not ucceptable for a premium car brand. Somehow thought buying a pcar I would get treated some what better. Had more luck on previous cars with third party warrantys. Even if today the say go ahead and replace the engine I'm sure it will be another three weeks. I'm afraid my first pcar experience will put me off these car forever........ Willing to be patient but this is beyond rediculos. Enjoy your summer in your pcar boys, mine has been ruined......thanks to the above...... G

Well this just sucks. Your car is under factory warranty, right? Not aftermarket? Sadly, both this IMShaft issue and the way Porsche is handling customers are all too commonplace these days. Although in a Boxster, we experienced the same failure at about 7K miles on the car. It was a 2003 model. We were a little more fortunate that the engine was in stock (dealer says they stock these now due to failure frequency) and that the replacement was completed in three days time. I certaily hope to learn you get some cooperation from Porshce and this thing fixed asap!! Hang in there!!

Thanks, yup full factory warranty, was hoping that the premium I paid for the car getting it would pay for it self. It will but the frustration...grrr

Porsche dealer customer service sucks big time. Last week I called 2 dealers for a trim piece. 1st one I talked to never called me back as to the price and when he would have it in. The other one I left a message for a call back and never heard from either. Last summer I had the same kind of problems with my reg porsche service dealer. Whet all the way to the owner to get things done right. SUCK SUCK SUCK I feel better now, and I feel your pain

Geoff - call MCL - speak with the service manager and demand answers to the hard questions. Start off polite,. If that doesn't get immediate results - call PCNA and ask them the hard questions, politely. Then start riding the service manager hard, then back to PCNA. I'd be happy to help...honestly. Catherine says I like conflict, and I do when I'm fighting for what's right.

Lvdell is more than capable of defending himself, but I believe that he's laughing at the assertion that the problem happens all too often, and not at the problem itself. There seems to be a tendency on the part of some to conclude that something is factual without having any data to supprt that conclusion.

Bingo. There is one key word that most here fail to understand...... EMPIRICISM

the shop spotted a 996 up in the air missing an engine. Upon closer examination spotting engine case suspended by chain hanging from lift. Rest of engine internals scattered about -- in a mechanic's organized way -- covered with clean shop rags. Engine suffered an intermediate shaft bearing failure. IMS was out and I could very clearly see the bearing race was hammered from the bearing failure. The shaft was intact -- though because the bearing race integral to shaft ruined -- and while at least one cam chain guide was broken none of the cam chains jumped any and no valves contacted pistons. Tech told me that Porshe has recently revised it protocol regarding engine "failure". The engine can now be removed, disassembled and an evaluation made as to whether the engine's salvagable. If the cost is less than the cost of a new engine the old engine is rebuilt with new/used parts, after a good cleaning. Here are some pictures. More if you want more... Oops! Pictures too large to upload. How can I make these pictures available to this thread/site? I have maybe a dozen or so pictures of an M96 engine's internals... Sincerely, Macster.

www.resize2mail.com

Lack of perspective caused by lack of data... "it happened to me and I know it happened to someone else I vaguely know, therefore it must be common."

These shots are of a 996 that experienced an apparent non-fatal intermediate shaft bearing failure.

That's kind of the way my wife thinks. If I did something she doesn't like once, I do it most of the time, and if I did it twice, I do it all of the time. And if I want to provoke her into a heated exchange, all I need to do is to ask her for some examples.

Thanks, More pics!!

The pictures I think are self-explanatory, I only typed something here because message was too short. If you want more details on what you're looking at I'll do my best to provide them. Sincerely, Macster.

Pics are small but interesting none the less. I, for one, can't discern any damage from the pics. Theoretically it doesn't matter if the motor is rebuilt at MCL or in Zuffenhasen, but of course it depends entirely who is doing the rebuilding. In the case of MCL it's my understanding that their shop foreman is second to none, so if he's doing the job all should be well, despite the fact that he won't have had much experience to date with rebuilding M96 motors since Porsche hs been swappin them out heretofore. The other pointed question I would have is if they will be upgrading the IMS to the later design, an absolute must as far as I'm concerned I'd also ask a few questions about how they think the IMS failed in this case, and if they shrug their shoulders I'd argue that the engine will fail again, via the same mechanism. Lastly - I'd be asking questions about time. There will come a point where you don't want to *rush* the job, but that point comes only after a local rebuild becomes inevitable. In fact at that point you want to be buyng the rebuilder chocolates or something to make sure his head and heart are in the game. Until such time as a decision is taken t rebuild instead of replace you want to be pushing for a very quick resolution - like in the 4 hours it takes to install the new engine for instance. I'd be willing to bet they have a 3.6 short block in inventory.

the intermediate shaft bearing race which may be attached to an earlier post of mine, and the one picture that shows a couple of large pieces of a chain guide. The guide is broken probably from the chain slop from the bearing going out. The chain guide is in a picture of the pistons. Except for the intermediate shaft and its bearing (both will have to be replaced) and the chain guide, with alot of professional cleaning the engine's salvagable. Oh, the car/engine was at a dealership and may be covered by warranty. Car/engine had around 20,000 miles, but I don't recall -- or wasn't told -- the year of the car. My understanding is the intermediate shaft can only be upgraded if the crankshaft is changed because the type/style of chain drive of the new/or improved intermediate shaft differs from that of the crank. At least one UK company offers re-worked new intermediate shaft with improved bearing but adapts this to old shaft replacing the wrong style chain drive with the right one for the crankshaft thus only the intermediate shaft needs to be replaced. Sincerely, Macster.

99 c2 with 75k and also supercharged, had at the strip several times and bested a 12.6 @ 112 (think i can do better) speedo showed 117 so i'm 5mph off.

Hey Macster - your first post was all chopped up, and you don't list a location so it isn't immediately clear if we are talking about the same car. Did you take these pictures at MCL recently, like last week or yesterday? The MCL car in question is about 30K km and is under factory warrantly. I've read the article that discusses how Autofarm in jolly old blighty upgrades an old M96 with the new bearing. They spline a new style IMS with uprated bearing and fit the old style sprocket onto it. Not a bad fix, but there's no way Porsche would go that route. It is my (possibly incorrect) understanding that when Porsche ships a remanufactured M96 motor, they change out the crank and IMS to all new style. Any knowledge if this is true?

Etch-A-Sketch in term of pictures... I've posted the pictures to a public photo hosting site. How can I include links to these pictures in post? With the links, one can view all of the pictures at their full resolution. The pictures were all taken at the same time -- over a span of 15 minutes or so -- at a northern CA Porsche dealer, over a week ago, closer to maybe two weeks ago. I was there to arrange for some work on my Boxster and while I was waiting for service manager spotted the cylinder block hanging and well, I started looking things over and talking to tech and taking pictures. He graciously uncovered the engine hardware to allow me a better view. When I expressed surprise at seeing engine torn down -- usually they're removed, boxed and shipped back to Porsche with a new engine going into the car -- he told me Porsche revised its procedures -- at least regarding engines for cars still under warranty -- and under some circumstances -- I assume if engine cases/etc at least intact -- to remove engine, disassemble it and estimate cost to repair. If less than cost of remanufactured engine Porsche will ok rebuild at the dealer's site. Tech told me damaget to this engine mild enough to qualify for engine build. Don't know if Porsche remanufactured engines include upgraded -- larger bearing with chain different drive from crank to intermediate shaft are the main differences -- intermediate shaft/crankshaft or not. One would hope so, but no one knows for sure. At least no one outside of Porsche. Sincerely, Macster.