Anyone get an LN bearing done AT LN?

As many of you probably do not know I recently joined the club with a 2000 C2. As near as I can tell, the car has not had the IMS taken care of. Before purchasing the car I did a bit of homework and ball parked what it might cost to have the bearing done should I purchase a car in need. I called LN Engineering and as it turns out, their shop is a half hour away. While I don't question the bearing itself as an answer to the problem, a few of the things they said on the phone and delivered in a quote (that they volunteered to send) made me a bit uneasy. I was wondering if anyone here has dealt directly with the shop, and if so, how was your experience? Here are some of the things that made me uneasy- They want to prequalify the car before doing the bearing. I sort of get this, but the car has 19k miles and you can eat off the entire car, inside and out. No leaks, no noises, no consumption, etc. Should the car not pass the test, they can't do the bearing? From all that I've read this is a pass/fail kind of thing. The bearing has either sh#t itself or not. They were very very eager to give me a "worst case scenario" quote, which frankly totaled the price of a really nice new used motor at almost $9000. It had a laundry list of items on it, from plugs and coils, to water pump, AOS, coolant, clutch, flywheel, brake fluid flush and on and on. I understand that this is a sort of pre-qualification of my pocketbook but it was followed by the statement of "we can't let the car leave our shop unless the job is done right". That makes me just a bit nervous. I'm very comfortable doing nearly everything on the list, yet I don't mind paying someone else to do some of it. It's things like "variocam wear pads" were I start to lose my competency. Frankly, the car has less than 20,000 miles, I'd expect none of these things to be a problem, especially with the condition of the car. Why can't this stuff be easy? Just put in the damn bearing and don't touch anything else. I'm looking for some advice or suggestions here.

I'd leave the damned thing alone and drive it.

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I'd love to, but depending on who you listen to these are either the greatest engines in the world or Porsche ran out of aluminum, iron, and steel when making these things and used defective rock candy to cast parts.

I haven't replaced my IMS Bearing yet. I will in the next few months. It makes sense to replace several of the items on the list since there is little additional labor, just the cost of parts, when the engine is out. The plastic bits, such as the water pump impeller, get brittle after 17 years. As far as the pre-qualification, one of the things they will look for is evidence of any metal in the oil/filter/sump or on the IMS Bearing itself. If they replace a bearing with metal floating around the engine, the engine will fail at some point and they don't want to be held liable for giving you back an engine they know will fail.

In answer to your question they seem to have a good rep on the forums etc. Believe they are active in this forum. The quote sounds fairly standard to what you might as well change while doing it. As you either remove the gearbox and/or drop the engine to replace the IMS, you might as well replace the clutch, rms, water pump, plugs and coils as they are easy to access and the additional labour isn't a lot compared doing them individually with the motor in the car. And if the engine is out, might as well do the wear pads on vario cam. I personally would change the IMSB, it made me sleep much better at night. But ultimately I waited until the clutch needed to be done. Low mileage garage queens the theory goes are more prone to IMSB failure. I have no proof either way.

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In my experience with other cars, and I know this isn't other cars, once chunks of metal get in the motor, it is instantly or pretty quickly toast. Once those chunks of metal get through the bearings, if they don't cause a failure, something like oil pressure will suffer immediately. They take it a bit further with cam variations, what does that do?

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I'm talking about very small bits of metal. The bearings don't fail instantaneously. I have torn down non-Porsche engines that had very small bits of metal in the sump and the engine probably ran that way for hundreds, it not thousands, of miles. These tiny bits can lead to bore scoring if they get stuck in the piston rings, they can bind the oil pressure piston, score the crank shaft if they end up in the main or rod bearings, damage cam lobes and lifter/tappet surfaces, damage the oil pumps, etc. It can take a while before lower oil pressure or other symptoms become evident.

If you have it done, I'd contact Jake Raby at LN and ask him for a recommended place to have it done. I had the place I bought my (80,000 miles) 996 do the bearing replacement. Two years and 20,000 miles later, the engine grenades. By then, the 'dealer' was out of business and I had a rolling chassis worth $20,000 less than I had paid for the car. Look at the https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html thread and the subsequent 900+ posts to see how to properly rebuild a 996 after IMS failure. Ahsai has set the standard in how to do a do-it-yourself rebuild. He (and the other contributors) might be able to steer you to a competent shop (and save you the $20,000 I lost). Best of luck.

This sounds like a tricky situation, either way IMO you should replace it. Also don't be fooled into a false sense of security whilst your kms (or I should say miles) are super low age should still be taken into consideration as all your components have or will have turned 17 at some point this year.

I'm not "at LN". Never have been. That said, don't be fooled by a low mileage car. These engines must be more scrutinized than any other, as low mileage leads to fewer services, and these engines hat to sit around static. The procedure that LN, or any Certified Installer will use to "pre- qualify" an engine for IMS Retrofit is mine. I developed it alongside the IMSR products. To dat that procedure has lead to a perfect success rate here, after 700 retrofit procedures have been carried out, including the very first one in history. The car, and engine can be spotless, and the engine still not pass the pre- qualification. It happens here all the time. I've disqualified an engine with 4,000 miles on it, that car still had the original tires fitted. To me low mileage, means high risk, and all engines are guilty until proven innocent by invasive evaluation. Time in service trumps mileage, and that comes from first hand experience. That mindset will get you nowhere fast.... Well, except on the side of the road with a failed replacement bearing due to negligence, on the part of the installer. LN and my company co- invented these processes, we hold ourselves and our Certified Installers to a high standard, and we will not compromise. We will not simply do what an owner wants, and retrofit an engine without ensuring the rest of that engine is healthy enough to have the time and money spent on it. No corners will be cut, and no compromises will be accepted. Yes, the variable valve timing wear pads can be well out of the wear spec in just 20,000 miles. Last week I had an 11,000 mile engine come in with a 9 degree cam deviation due to these wear pads. The Porsche spec for cam deviation is 6 degrees, that engine wasn't retrofitted, and I sent a several thousand dollar job down the road. Thats better than executing poor judgment, performing the retrofit, and the engine having complications later, or killing the replacement bearing. You will find some hack shops that won;t pre- qualify anything. They will throw a bearing at an engine that has metal debris floating around in the oil thats visible, because they don't even look at it. They don't care. It isn't their product, and isn't their problem. They'll just take your money, and if it blows up later they'll point the finger at LN, and you end up being a pissed off owner "venting" here on the forum about how junky the LN parts are. Its plain and simple: Engines that are pre- qualified and see an IMS Retrofit live happy, long lives. The 700 engines that we've retrofitted without a single failure of the replacement bearing is perfect evidence of this.

Jake: So if you find the cam deviation high (for example, my car is 8%), therefore, it fails the pre-qualification process. What I read is that any item that fails that can be repaired and it is repaired, such as replacement of the wear pads and ensure everything is in spec, and then we can move forward with the IMS bearing change out. Obviously if the engine has metal floating around in it, it's a completely different story with the pre-qualification process. So am I right with my assumptions above?

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We will probably be the most expensive shop you can use for this process, same as Flat 6 Innovations. What you get with us is the experience and expertise of being the developers of the product and procedure. We won't cut corners. Pre-qualification is required for any warranty. If the shop doing the work doesn't do this and you have a failure, there will be zero warranty. And yes, we have seen cars with low mileage that have all kinds of problems that would disqualify them from being retrofitted. Shops on our Preferred or Certified Installer lists are required to pre-qualify jobs and have turned down repair work repeatedly because they find engines that are not suitable candidates for our products and procedures. We also quote out what it will be worst case - every time, regardless of mileage. You never know what you will find once the car arrives. I'd rather prepare you for the worst and then the job is thousands cheaper on the back end once we actually have the car in our facility and we can thoroughly inspect it. Doing it any other way is wrong and what companies like Motormeister used to do - quote low to get you in, then sell you stuff you don't need once you are trapped. To flame my company and reputation because you want to be cheap doesn't settle well with me. Go have Jiffy Lube put in your IMS bearing if you want someone blindly changing parts that doesn't know what they are looking at or know what they are doing.

OP...this is the equivalent of seeing a heart surgeon that tells you, "Sorry, I won't operate on your heart unless I know it is 100% normal. I can't risk my reputation if you die on the table." So, these guys made some money developing a replacement IMSB that will only be used to replace a perfectly good (make that "perfect") IMSB, in a perfectly good engine. It's funny, but I don't recall the need to "pre qualify" these cars for an LNE IMSB when I first bought a 996 years ago. When I had mine replaced it certainly wasn't a requirement. This pre qualification requirement seems to have crept up now that these cars are getting older/higher mileage and a few of these replacement bearings have failed. This way, the blame can't be placed on the replacement bearing. It is simply because the car was basically dead on the table before the bearing was installed.

Keep in mind that less than 1% of dual row bearing mk.1 996's made between 1997-2001 were affected by the IMSB issue! The mk.2 996's (2002-2004) with signle-row IMSBs are the ones that had the higher than 8% failure rate. Check the build date for your car. It's shown as month/year (10/99 on my car) in the upper right hand corner of the sticker on the edge of your driver's side door. As a 2000 model year car it is more than likely built in the first half of 2000, which means it more than likely has the more robust dual row bearing. The gradual changeover from dual-row to single-row bearing started in mid-2000. And even quite a few 2001 cars have been reported to have dual row bearings come out of their car during swap. Knowing what I know now, in your case I would not change anything just yet and start with buying an LN Spin On filter adapter, a magnetic drain plug and a 100 micron strainer to run your oil through during oil changes. Over the next couple of oil change cycles, send oil samples off for UOA (used oil analysis) and such and keep a watchful eye on debris in the strainer and in the oil filters you change out. Watch for plastic bits in the oil as well, as these will most likely be coming from the chain tensioner paddles. If the oil is clean of plastic, I'd leave the chain tensioner paddles alone too. Overall, this could mean the difference between doing the more costly engine-out refresh vs. a more reasonably priced tranny-out IMSB/RMS/Clutch swap when the time comes. When your clutch starts to show signs of needing replacement, then you will have some big decisions to make. Put in whatever flavor of replacement bearing your research points you too, or what your wallet can support. When I had the full engine-out refresh done to my 2000 Cab last year I went with the EPS "Eternal" cylindrical bearing with the slotted hex drive oil feed and put almost 6k miles on it before selling the car. That car had an 05/00 build date and the IMSB that came out at 93k miles was dual row and in perfect condition. EPS advertises their cylinder bearing as a permanent fix and there is no evidence that I could dig up that indicates anything to the contratrary. Granted, using the $450 EPS bearing kit instead of the more expensive LN options went against the general mindset of most who frequent here, but I would still use that bearing again in a heartbeat. You will hear things like "there is no published spec sheet for the load capacity of the bearing" and "there are no published numbers of how many bearings EPS has sold" or "EPS probably doesn't sell enough bearings for us to have heard of any failures yet" and other potentially valid-sounding arguments as to why not to use the EPS bearing. Take all of that into consideration. My theory is quite simply that most people who chosen to use the EPS bearing don't frequent Rennlist. But if their were failures, I think it's pretty likely in this day and age of easy-access information that we'd have heard about it by now. Now.... None of this is any kind of slam against LN or their solutions. In fact, the car that replaced my 2000 Cab has an LN dual row replacement bearing in it, which was replaced under previous ownership. But that bearing also has a published 50k mile life-cycle and in the unlikely event that I should happen to still own this car when it's "time" to go through another IMSB swap, based on what I know right now I'd use the EPS Eternal bearing again without hesitation.

That car sat for long periods of time. No oil circulating, means stuff wasn't seeing any lubrication. Those plastic pads were brittle on my 02 C4S with 100k km on it. I can imagine the pads in your car being even more brittle since it saw very little oil circulation. And yes, If I could afford to have LNE install a part they had a part in designing in my car, I'd do that rather than have some parts changer shop install it.

^ I agree with most of what JT and AWDGuy said. I would drain the oil as stated above, cut open the filter and look for bits, drop the sump, send oil off to be analysed...If all looks good, plan on the solution and have it installed by a certified installer.

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First of all let's get one thing straight; I'm not trying to flame your company. I'm doing my due diligence. Like I said, I've already done my research on your product and chose it to be the solution, now I'm researching the work done by your shop. I completely understand that you need to prequalify both the condition of the engine and you have to prepare and qualify me, the customer, for the possible eventuality that other items might be involved in the solution. I do apologize that the way some of my comments were written may have been misconstrued as comments about your company, in reality, they are directed at my frustration that this and other problems exist from Porsche itself (why can't we just replace the bearing, the frustration that a car with 20k miles can be a basket case, etc). That being said, I will contact you directly with my concerns.

I agree with jaetee. You likely have a dual row bearing that is completely fine. If it's not broken don't fix it. Check other parts that have probably gone bad from just sitting there, like the aos bellow. How does the car drive?

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and if you remove the source of the contamination and replace the lubricant, the damage that is done is done. If no symptoms persist afterwards, what is the difference other than the wear that prematurely occurred? All engines wear, the described situations are what determines why one engine lasts 70k miles and another will go 250k+

As a data point, I'm a long time p-car DIY owner. Just got a 40K mile '01 986S. It has an excellent maintenance history, buuut - no IMS done, and the RMS was leaking. Running great, but plugs and coils were original. I took it apart, found a single row IMS bearing in perfect shape, seals still on it but full of engine oil (grease long gone) and replaced with the LN Single Row Pro after a lot of research. I also replaced the following items because they age out and it's a lot easier to deal with them while the car is mostly apart. Now my wife and I can drive this car for quite a while with no concern on my part that a common item is going to surprise us. So yes, it can seem like LN is suggesting you might want to replace "a lot" of items when the main job is the IMS bearing. And after buying a low mileage car I can appreciate that you would think everything is still nice and new and doesn't need updating. But these items age (fluids, belt, hoses, water pump impellers, throwout bearing grease), get superseded with better designs (coils and IMS) and can have issues from lack of frequent lubrication (chain guides). Some are just wear items that are inexpensive ($300 ish) compared to the labor to get to them (clutch, pressure plate). Experience has shown me my ownership (and resale) is better when I address items like this at the outset in a big "maintenance surge" when the car is apart. I can't speak for LN, but it sounds like they know this and know the cars and their weak points since the advice you are getting mirrors my experience. Replace Oil Fill Tubes (leaking) Replace AOS (PM) Replace RMS (leaking) Replace IMS (LN Single Row Pro) Replace Plugs and Coils 997 version (PM) Oil & Filter Change Air Filter Climate Filter Fuel Filter Water Pump, Hoses & Coolant (PM) Belt Replacement (PM) Clutch, Pressure Place, TO bearing (PM & WIWIT) Stainless Brake Flex Lines (PM) Brake Fluid Flush (PM) Replaced Undertray rubber cooling scoops (repair) Wheel Stud Conversion (usability) New Wiper Blades (PM) Secondary Cat Bypass Tubes (fun factor) Convert Exhaust Bolts to Stainless Studs (usability)

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It drives fine, leaks nothing, there are no signs that I should be concerned about anything other than statistics. The suspension seems tight, but if I'm honest, I don't have anything to compare it to. Because of the way it was purchased I don't have service records, but looking at the condition of each and every part of the car I'd bet that anyone here who looked st it would say it was well taken care of. The car is from Georgia and that state requires a vehicle inspection every year. The inspection was done every year and the mileage reported shows it never sat for even a year. It was two owner, the first owner put 3500 miles on it in a little over a year, the second owner put a majority of the miles on it in years 2-10 and the last 6 years it was driven 500-700 miles a year. I've driven it myself about 300 miles already, some shorter stints and a few 60-70 mile drives. I'd think if there were any immediate gremlins they'd have poked their heads already.

I'll add the following example of why low miles isn't as important as age and previous PM. I bought a 2002 996TT with 16k miles. Absolutely immaculate condition with complete maintenance history, all done by the dealer. These cars have the following known issues: 1. Clutch Accumulator 2. Rear Wing Hydraulic Actuators 3. Alternators (shared with the 986/996) 4. Coils (and they wear plugs quickly) Guess what was wrong with the car at 16k miles? 1 & 2. And number 3 happened at 23K miles. Now I'm not suggesting that any of these should have been addressed in advance. They are expensive and don't cause catastrophic engine failure or make the car crash. I addressed number 4 at 21K miles as a PM item. My point with this example is that we know these cars now, and we know what to look out for. Use that knowledge to keep yourself ahead of the curve.

I don't care about that "percentage". Thats the figure that was settled on in the Eisen suit, it means nothing to me. There's lots of things that can make an engine fail a pre- qualification. Just like there were a lot of things that would make an aircraft fail a pre- flight inspection when I worked on the flight line 20 years ago. That said, we go out of our way to ensure that customers are not "stuck" if an engine fails pre- qual: -If a car is shipped to us from more than 250 miles away (thats most of them) we now have a checklist of data that a local shop must collect and provide to me for review, before we will ship the car here to carry out the invasive inspection. This is an additional step, but it keeps cars with obvious problems from being shipped, just so I can plug into the car and "down" it in less than one minute. IF an engine fails this local inspection, its game over for us working with them, on the spot....(Unless they want to forego the preventative work, and join in on our repair side of the house. This way the issue is repaired, and the IMSR is carried out as a portion of that procedure.) Doing this has worked well, we no longer have issues where people send us cars that fail right away, and our schedule also benefits from this. There's nothing worse than a car being driven here from far away, or hauled, only to have me down it in less than one minute. -We only collect the pre- qualification labor money as a deposit up front, so it an engine ends u being "downed" the customer only pays this amount to us. Nothing more. No obligations, or disappointment. No pressure. If the engine fails pre- qual, the person can do anything they want, and we won't pressure or coerce them. I tend not to even make recommendations, as those can be considered coercion. -When this happens we give the owner 3 choices: 1- Do nothing. We put the car back together, and they can drive off into the sunset 2- Have us go invasive, make the repair, then finish the work with a preventative package 3- Join the reconstruction side of the house here, and have the engine completely updated with all our processes. I have had to deal with this a lot, and as the cars get older, we accept fewer and fewer IMSR jobs. More and more things occur to create a disqualification. I try my best to mitigate risks that could lead to someone having a complaint. Sometimes that means that we simply stop offering something. Or a timing chain roller... Or part of a rod bolt. Or a chunk of a cylinder, or a wrist pin clip. Yes, I have documented all of those things before. Do this 700 times, and invasively inspect them all, and you'll find the same. --------------------------- Just like technicians, and mechanics, there are varying qualities of cardia surgeons. One of my customers who is a pediatric cardio-thoracic surgeon has told me a lot of the stories about how people in his line of work vary, and we've talked about how mechanics repair their mistakes, and surgeons bury theirs. He told me that the "hacks" in his world are referred to as having "cold, hard, hands of death". They may make poor judgment calls, take stupid risks, or decide to perform a procedure on a patient that is not healthy enough to withstand the procedure. I lived through this with my dad for the last 5 years of his life. Been there, done that. The IMS Retrofit procedure is, and always will be aimed at preventing issues. Elective IMS Retrofits are the primary objective for the components, and always will be. In the earliest of days this procedure wasn't even accepted by the main stream. The things that are done today are due to the trails we blazed over a decade ago, when Porsche Service Writers told everyone that an IMSB replacement was impossible. Then either you didn't have the right installer do the work, or you didn't research things enough. On day #1 I developed the IMS Retrofit procedure, on day #2 I developed the pre- qualification procedure that is used today, and has evolved. This has been common place since the very beginning. My first Technician M96 Engine Class was held in 2007, and even those attendees received the IMSR pre- qualification procedure checklist. The only thing that has changed has been the differing issues that come from longer time in service for engines, as well as higher mileage. Like everything we do, the process is continually updated. Incorrect. It is more common place to hear about it now, since there are more Certified Installers that must live by an agreed upon "code of conduct" regarding pre- qualifications. I have also been stating this on forums for years, and even though people are generally dense, they finally listen after about 5 years, or so. Just like it shouldn't be. If a hack installs an IMSR product into an engine that's dying, or has an issue, that product is placed in harm's way. This isn;t fair to the customer, the product, or the developers. What happens is normal shops work on "book time" for jobs, and if a technician sees an issue with an engine, they know that if they say something about this issue that they'll lose money on their check at the end of the week; because, that job wasn't completed. Its not their product. At the end of the week their honesty costs them money. Consider that last paragraph and you'll see what the real issue is. At LN or Flat 6, this won't happen. You are going to the source, the Inventors, the Developers, and the Manufacturers. __________________

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I'm with you! The more one drives an older low miles car the quicker issues will surface. I don't care how new it looks because it is old on the inside.

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That this thread exists demonstrates that the bolded isn't entirely true. Anyone who researches this issue and reaches a point where they think having Jake or Charles do the retrofit will be as simple as calling and scheduling it to be done didn't research it well. These are well-known facts in this arena.

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The same goes for ANY of the Certified Installers. They live by the same cod of conduct that we do, and we constantly work with them to help them make the proper judgment calls. The private Certified Installer forums that we have for all of us to share experiences, have some radically experienced things posted, and some of the stories with owners are quite interesting.

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I want to state, again, that I'm not trying to flame LN. I'm asking as a customer doing my due dilligence. I understand that if there are particles in the oil, filter, sump, etc that the risk to the company is not in their best interests. I also asked what cam deviation has to do with the IMS bearing. Yet, metal particles can be found in ALL filters, dumps, oil, etc. what is the threshold? Yes, I've read other threads that state IF the cam deviation is greater than 6 degrees it could indicated several things, including IMSB issues. While I might have missed the thread explaining why, I haven't seen one. I diagnose issues in systems far more complicated (in a sense) than this for a living. I'm one of a half dozen or so people in the world that can do this for a company whose product can be found ALL over the 911, albeit I do so for a different division. When I let someone work on my vehicles it is my nature and need to understand exactly what is happening. My concern is with something the sales guy said about the project in its entirely. I'm simply asking if anyone here has actually had the work done by LN. If so, how was the experience.

The OP is an Engineer!! That explains it Seriously, you have two of the best 996/997 guys (Charles and Jake) on the planet chiming in here. I was skeptical as well at one point but then I had a hard dose of reality. My car did not suffer a IMS failure but it did have a failure. You need to read more. I would take the car to whoever is closer. If your car is what you believe it is then there is no issues....right?

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A simple search on here will easily answer all your questions. But, it sounds like you know it all already. You aren't the first bright person to have examined and questioned every nuance of the M96 engine. Those answers exist. Probably the best thread on here to answer everything you can think of (and things you haven't) would be this one: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html

Alwayswanted1, It sounds to me like you should perform the work yourself. If someone called me and stated the things that you've just posted, that would be my recommendation. Why? When the IMSB fails, or starts to fail the IMS assembly ends up running askew in the crankcase. This makes the cam deviations alter due to timing chain slack, and the fact that the IMS Tensioner is transmitting load to the IMS assembly, further enhancing this. The bank 1 cams see this more than bank 2, as they are driven by the end of the IMS that is supported by the bearing that fails. In last weeks M96 102 Hands- on Engine Rebuild School I had 12 enthusiasts that comprised the class. The first morning I asked "raise your hand if you are an Engineer".... 7 people of the 12 raised their hands. I then said "I'll warn you now, I'll **** you off before the end of this class". They laughed, we had a good time for the next 4 days. They loved it when I told them I barely graduated from high school, in Special Ed classes. I think they thought I was kidding.

This thread is exactly why I do not value low mileage when I buy a car. My 996TT was 13 years old but had only 47k miles on it when I bought it - but frankly I would have bought it with 100k miles. My '99 996 C4 aero had 133k miles on it when I bought it and 148k miles (and running beautifully) when I sold it. It looked and ran like a new car. I'd rather buy a 2000 model year 996 with 100k miles and pay $15,000 for it than buy one with 19k miles on it for probably $25,000. Why? Well, now you are stuck with the above scenario of spending another $9,000 "just in case" it might break. And guess what? It still may very well break. How many modes of complete engine failure are there for the M96? So, spend $9,000 to hopefully prevent an IMS bearing failure and you might still have D-chunk or bore scoring or fill-in-the-blank with about half of the other modes of failure that still won't be avoided even with all that work to be done. No sir, not for me. I'll buy the $15,000 car and drive the damn thing until it DOES break. Then, I'll either fix whatever breaks or sell the carcass and move on. I'd rather have a car that I can drive without worrying about putting mileage on it (which is one thing I hate about my 996TT - it is TOO low of mileage). Or worrying about getting a rock chip on it because it's a garage queen. Or worrying about having to do $9,000 worth of preventative maintenance because "it might break." I used to drive my '99 996 C4 aero every-freaking-where in every-freaking-type-of-weather and I never worried about this stuff. This thread is why the 996 gets a bad reputation. My opinion is that if you aren't comfortable with going with the recommendations of LN and Jake, then you should not have purchased a low-mileage garage queen. When you do that, you are basically committed to adopting the OCD theory of Porsche ownership. Which is expensive. To each his own - there are guys that would never consider doing it any other way. They are not wrong. It's just a theory that I don't subscribe to because in the end, as much as I love the 996, it is just a car. It's meant to be driven and driven cars will break down eventually. But, there are tons of Porsche owners who are more than comfortable spending thousands and thousands of dollars replacing perfectly good parts because they might someday break. My opinion? Sell the damn thing to somebody who is comfortable with the OCD lifestyle. Then, take $15,000 of that sale price and buy yourself a nice, higher mileage car that you don't lay awake at night worrying about. Put the remaining $10,000 of your garage queen sale price back in the bank on top of the $9,000 you aren't going to spend doing the preventative maintenance. Then drive the hell out of the higher mileage car with a big grin on your face. Rant off

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Try what I did.. - read about m96, determine there's a risk you want to eliminate - find vendor for best product at cost you can afford (I chose the Solution) - locate certified installer (on the Solution's website) - set appointment - pay installer for the install - IF your car is rejected, at least you know it has issues before the engine went kaput. Address the issues and move on. Or sell the car and disclose what you've found. Own your risk! - enjoy driving a car that has a fixed IMS bearing & focus remainder of efforts on respecting other limitations of the car* - Do not, under any circumstance, irritate the small network of people that can actually help you with industry leading products geared precisely to your application. We are here for a reason, respect the limitations of our knowledge and the extensive nature of LN/FSI's on the topic. *I use DT40 for lubrication, run injector cleaner periodically, aggressive with preventative maintenance when the car is in the shop for servicing, do not track my car or spend a lot of time at redline. Do not ignore codes - fix problems as directly and honestly as you can. Don't operate in freezing temperatures, etc. Accept what you have and enjoy within the establish bounds as much as possible.

I have heard of the LN pre-qualification but I don't know what it entails. What items have to be checked?

LN Engineering and Flat 6 Innovations know how many things can damage the engine (besides the IMS bearing) - more than anyone else. They can see dangers signs/symptoms in these motors with their eyes closed. You are paying for that, and the associated increased confidence afterwards. They do not want to work on an engine, see signs of risk, and not address them. That's integrity. -DL Pete

I've seen pics of FSI's shop and visited LN Engineering's facility: Drop a greasy grilled cheese sandwich on floor? Pick it up and enjoy!

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Try this: http://theimssolution.com/wp-content...-Checklist.pdf The website has lots of other info too.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/rockon.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/rockon.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/rockon.gif

.............so the question begs to be asked. Has the OP changed his name from "Always wanted 1" to "Had 1 for a real short time"? Where'd he go?

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LOL on the wording on that form. "Control module interrogation" So lets put the computer under some hot lights, and ask it some tough questions. Maybe we will get a confession of an over-rev or a loose gas cap!

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Oh, I'm still here. I was just out looking for a third job to cover all of these preventative maintenance expenditures. I was also out in the garage changing the air oil separator and coolant expansion tank. Everything was working just fine after I was done until I had the sudden urge to replace them again, just in case. I thought I saw a mouse in the garage as well.

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Easily #1 on the list of 24 known Modes of Catastrophic Failures. Everyone wants to spend $1,000's in preventative maintenance and all you need are a few traps and a box of d-CON...

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a lot of people fault Porsche for the bore scoring and IMS issues but they fail to look at the big picture. The explaination for bore scoring is quite simple, actually. When you park your car in the garage on cool/cold evenings, the mice are looking for somewhere warm to sleep. They will crawl into the exhaust and nestle next to the catalytic converter. Sometime during the night they discover that the special platinum alloy is quite tasty and begin to chew away at it. This occurs night after night until one evening they've completely chewed through the cats. Once they find an open path they will discover that one of the exhaust valves are open. This is usually cylinder number six as the way the engine is balanced from the factory, number six exhaust valves are typically open when the engine comes to rest. The smaller more adventurous mice crawl into the cylinder and bed down. This typically isn't an issue for most owners as the mice wake up and head out to search for food before the car is started. The problem surfaces on the morning a Porsche owner starts the car before around six AM. The tiny mice are still in the combustion chamber. When the car starts and the piston reaches TDC, they are crushed. It's the little mouse bones that begin to score the bores. If you keep your garbage in the garage this can happen night after night, eventually leading to engine failure. Of special note; most people don't know this, but young mice are actually a bit claustrophobic. This is the reason you see the 3.6L cars exhibit these failures more often. That little bit of extra displacement is really attractive to the little guys. This explains why you can have a 3.4L car and it would be OK, yet your neighbor with the 3.6L can be affected. Most folks think there is no way to predict an impending score if issue, not true. When you first start the car, plant your foot to the floor and hold the engine at redline for 5-7 seconds. Have a friend look for tiny mouse droppings shooting out of the exhaust. This HAS to be done at cold start as once the engine is up to operating temps the mouse droppings will vaporize. If you find droppings, a cheap package of D-con will fix the issue. $5 fix, done.

Always wanted 1: Bravo, Bravo!!!

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Works for me, I keep a tray under my main toolbox at all times. Problem solved

I nominate always wanted 1 for president of the 996 forum

AWARD +1 internet

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I angered Charles from LN and got nominated for president of the 996 forum in the same day. Isn't the internet grand?

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Hey, getting Charles upset takes some talent. Jake's easy to get riled up, but I don't think I've seen Charles get testy before. And I've seen him dealing with some real idiots when they come on here actually trying to slander his company/products. Damn, now I need to go dig up that thread from Mr "I have a loan on a 14+ year old car and used 401k money to put a new motor in it" which made Jake stop answering the phone for awhile. That is some pure Rennlist gold there!

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That's the problem with this forum and Porsche stuff in general if it ain't broke keep changing parts till it is. I recently sold my very well documented 2003 C4s to another member here. In the time I owned the car had I followed this forum and DIY'ed the hell out of my car it still would have cost me in excess of $5,000 for just because stuff...It's total insanity the crap that guys go on with that "need" to be done just because your in there. Heck when your checking the oil might as well drop the alternator just because your in there. The new owner got a GREAT car that was well maintained and ran perfectly, it's up to him now if he is going to cave under the pressure of reading all the free "Advice" here on what needs to be changed in order for his new dream car to not self destruct. Although the Audi R8 forum is kinda boring (hence my trolling around here) I must say the level of misc repair "just because" threads over there are non existent.

Over the last 18 years Charles and I have changed roles a bit... Today he gets more pissed off, easier than I do. It used to be the opposite, as back in the day I've physically removed people from my property before. I think its only because he deals with more people than I do. Life is easier when you are underground.

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I really truly wasn't trying to bash his company. I wanted some feedback from other customers.

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No I don't believe you were. This guy on the other hand... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ings-fail.html Damn that thread is still hilarious.

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http://imsretrofit.com/pre-procedure-qualification/

Mice. It's always mice...

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No doubt, I have a theory on how they cause IMS failures. I'd like to tell it, but I'm busy preventively changing the coils for the third time today. Did I mentioned I'm also on my third pair of underwear? You never know when a pair is going to get soiled.

Will you get the damn prequal already? It will be hilarious if it passes with flying colors and this entire thread was a waste of Etherspace.

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I've been out of town all week. I'm planning on dropping the sump, inspecting, and changing the oil and sending it off for testing. The oil was just changed before I bought the car but I frankly don't trust many folks and I have no evidence the right oil was even put in the car. I'm in no hurry to get anything done. The water pump has, at most, 20,000 miles, it's not leaking and the temp gauge is rock steady pointed straight up. I will test it and change if necessary. I'm not changing the water pump. The coolant expansion tank looks like it is factory new. I'm not changing the tank. The clutch feels just fine and the take up is fine, I'm not changing the clutch, even if it will "save me money"(somehow) by changing it when the bearing is serviced. I have a garage full of tools, I'll admit that I don't have a brake fluid tester. One is scheduled for delivery tomorrow, the fluid will be tested. The appearance of the fluid is no different than stuff right out of the can..but I will change it if it fails. I'm going to pull the plugs and inspect, and yes, change if necessary, along with the coils. When I'm done with that, I'll take it for the prequal. If I drop the pan or find debris in the filter I'll order an LS1.

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the build date on my car is 9/99

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Are you sure they didn't have the stamp turned the wrong way round? That would explain sooo much

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it is Guards Red...

That seals it. Most evil color ever used on a 911.

Burn it. AOS and Water pump should be changed every 3 years ideally. Water pump is easy, AOS is a rite of passage. As for Jake and Charles, they have dedicated a portion of their lives to keeping these cars running in top condition. They are not for the person looking to flip cars in 12 months. But if you want your car to be in the best shape possible and can amortize the expense over 5+ years of ownership they are the best you will find.

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If you call me, and you don't want to keep the car forever.... I'll tell you in the first 30 seconds that you are talking to the wrong guy.

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Search & read, the answers are out there.

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Most people believe at some time of their lives that they will keep their car forever. It rarely happens in reality.

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since I started this thread.. I've got a 1993 Notchback Mustang I bought when I was 20 in 1996, my Dad's 1997 Cherokee, and now the Porsche..

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Just based on watching this forum I think your view is clearly incorrect, at least for the 996. Most people that come here are pretty honest that they didn't buy it to be a keeper. Just a fun car that is way underpriced for it's value that they can have a blast with and then move on in a few years. Some of those short term owners have turned into 5+ year owners because the fell in love. We certainly do see the occasional "I'm keeping it forever" claims, but they are pretty rare. And there are a few of those that are true and there are even a few original owners kicking about. I think that's all at least partially to do with the reputation the 996 has. No one in their right mind views it as an investment that is going to appreciate in value in anything other than the extreme long term (like another 10-20 years)

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I agree, the entry point on the 996 is great, but the fear mongering convinces them to do repairs before they are required. I think everyone goes in with good intentions to keep the car for awhile, but life, time and other things get in the way and they make a change after they plunked in a huge investment with no return. I came from the 928 world, Precision Motorwerks in SoCal is the go to for them, and he is booked solid with work. Many people put down double what the car is worth just for one of his stroker motors. I believe your view about the 996 owners is accurate but Jake said if the owner isn't looking at his 996 as a forever car then he's talking to the wrong guy. Based on their business there must be lots of them out there or at least they believe they are. FSI has a waiting list and all the work they can handle.

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Just DIY. I'm going to do my own. It's not rocket surgery. Guards red is the proper color. All other colors are wanna-be(except speed yellow, that I can abide).

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I agree, Guards Red Is the PROPER color for the Porsche. All of the cars in silver are examples of cars Porsche primed and forgot to paint. Blacks are just silvers with years of neglect. Regarding the DIY aspect. The more time I spend on this thread, the more terrified I get. The cost of "maintence" items on this car equal the cost of an LS3 crate motor and conversion kit. I'm beginning to think an LS3 IS preventative maintenance. I love the look, feel, and handling of this car. I even love the flat six howl, but I'd never spend $20,000 to replace the engine in a failure with another glass jaw. I want a lifetime of planting my right foot without the mental equivalent of a bear trap that's gone crush my ankle if I press too hard.

The 996 is simply a gateway Porsche. I bought mine just because I always wanted a 911, and yes, it was Guards Red. I spent $1000's on upgrades and of course, an LN IMSB. The only reason for the bearing replacement was my overreaction to the Porsche Class Action settlement that surfaced about the same time I needed a new clutch. I incorrectly thought that any eventual buyer would pay more for a car with a replacement bearing. I realized that I was putting $$$ into the car to make my MY2003 more "modern". A new double din unit gave me Bluetooth, Nav, Phone, etc. A new amp/speakers gave me better sound. Fisters, because they're awesome. Just when I got it where I wanted it, I realized I just wanted a newer car. Sold it and bought my MY2012 997.2. Now I'm told this engine is subject to bore scoring. Well, ok then. It's always something I guess, and you can only replace so many bearings. I imagine there is more $$$ to be made replacing entire engines, but I've learned my lesson. Just maintain and enjoy.

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Most solid advice here! I wonder how many good motors / cars have been ruined because of the NEED to replace items guys post about on here. IMO a bone stock unmolested IMS car is worth more to me than one that has been effed with.

I was going to let it go too. I bought the full flow filter, the mag drain plug, and I change oil often and send off for inspection. But, this is all in an effort to 'catch it' before catastrophic failure. Of course, the vendors on here will tell you that there is no such thing as 'catch it'. Woe is me to argue with the pros, but that's my philosophy. Now, having marketed my car - the only question I'm asked is 'did the IMSB get replaced'? The rest of the car could be a flaming wreck, and smell like Cher's cooter but the only thing people want to know is IMSB. So, next month I'll go down there and just get it done. That way everyone can say 'oh - you did the IMSB? It must have failed and filled your crankcase with steel, so... too bad, cya'. eff-em.

If you can avoid it, I wouldn't waste your money Doc. You won't get it back in the sale price and you're right that you'll also turn some people off by having it just done. I would simply include a blurb in your ad making it clear that A) no it has not been replaced, B) you monitor it (as noted) and it has shown no symptoms of failure, and C) this gives them the ability to know exactly what the motor's state is and make their own decisions rather than risk someone covering up an already failing motor. Then simply ignore the "has the bearing been changed?" idiots that will contact you anyway.

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Already done that. Just as you said. Not surprising, 100% of the people who've contacted me from this very forum are the one's asking about the IMSB. So, I will refrain from calling them 'idiots' but - you get the idea I guess. As for the money part of it, I'm doing ok on my investment. If I get serious, it'll go on BaT and I'll make millions!, millions I say! muuuaaahahhahahaaa

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My commentary was on asking about information that is already available if they bothered to read first, not that they want the IMSB already done (we all have our own opinions on that subject).

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Not a lot of folks use search. Also, I gotta say, the IB search engine is pretty crappy, but that's not an excuse for not finding info on IMSB repl. It's all over this sub-forum.

Wow , that's a lot of whining. Doesn't sound like the 996 is for you. Sell it on BaT and go buy a Corvette. I bet you'll get along great with the other vette owners.

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stating the obvious is whining? Checked the brake fluid, its mint. The pan gets dropped this weekend and in goes the DT40 if everything checks out. I might flush the coolant just for the hell of it too.

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might as well change the water pump "while your in there" LOL!!!

Calling the engine a glass jaw? You know nothing. I have 30+ track days pounding the heck out of a 3.4l that had maxed out type 1 over revs (65535) and 690 type 2 over revs when I got it. And it still has clean UOAs. Last weekend, out of 60 cars at the PCA DE, it was the second fastest behind a 997cup with a veteran driver. Both the 996Cup and the 991GT3RS with advanced drivers had to give the point by. These engines are amazing.

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I disagree.

This is not the first time someone has bought a 996...then decided to join this Forum only to find out they actually purchased a ticking time bomb that will reduce their bank accounts to rubble...

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Then why on God's green earth are there countless hundreds of threads devoted to IMSB failures, bore scoring, D chunk, porous castings, AOS failures, and on and on and on? With few exceptions, you being one, just about everyone on this forum treats the engine like they just stepped on a Claymore and if they do so much as breath they are going to be the captain of a shrimp boat. Hey, I LOVE the car. I love the engine. I love the way it revs, I love the way it sounds. I just don't know what to believe about the thing.

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Then your relationship with your new car is toast. She's smokin' hot but you just can't trust the b!tch so dump her for something more sturdy...

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I think the LS3 comment that started this latest batch of go-arounds is the equivalent of trading her in for something a little more sturdy. Don't worry, I'm just going to end up proving everyone wrong by beating the tar out of the 3.4L and not having it blow up, but knowing there is a conversion out there allows me to sleep at night. My guess is, odds are I won't ever have to make the decision, but I'll cross that bridge if I come to it. Think of it as transplanting the brain from the one on the right to the one in the middle.

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If you look at those threads you'll see that the vast majority are posts from people that were new to the 996 at the time, much like yourself. There are certainly documented cases of all those issues happening, but the majority of related threads are of the "OMG?!?!?! Is my engine going to explode????" or "Please spoon feef me the information I'm too lazy to read myself" varieties. The reality is that most 996s build from 98 to 04 are still running just fine. The majority of non-enthusiasts have never even heard of all those things which allows them to just enjoy an amazing car for a ridiculously low (respective of what it is) price. Those of us that have been around for awhile and owned our cars for a significant period understand that the situation is not nearly as bad as the thread counts make it seem. At the end of the day we can't tell you what to do. We can just offer the wisdom of experience. You ultimately have to decide how much risk you can tolerate and what to do to mitigate it. We just recently had an original owner lose his motor after 213k with minimal work beyond oil changes. It was a simple matter of the chain guides wearing out and he (his shop?) wasn't paying attention enough to fix it proactively. 213k with all the factory internals and little more than regular oil changes isn't too shabby. There is another original owner kicking around with (I believe) 175k on it also with minimal maintenance other than oil. There is a 40AE running around with (at last post I saw) 285k on it's clock. I've heard rumors of a 500k example. Apollo was at 248k when the owner chose to just run it into the ground.

If you price it out, going the LS route isn't cheaper than most options for replacement or rebuilding. It may end up being a little cheaper than a quality rebuild from FSI, but a used engine can be found for 1/3rd the cost of an LS swap. I've been where you are ("uhhh, what's my fail-safe backup plan?"). LS is cool if you have the time, money and patience to wade through the issues & then face a difficult resale. Rebuilt m96 is ideal in my opinion because rebuilds can address weak points in the stock motor (connecting rods & bolts, cylinder linings, intermediate shaft construction, low temp thermostat, etc.). If the LS swap was $10k or less without major issues, I'd be ambivalent on the subject. But for many that talk about 996s, the LS swap is a figment of the imagination. No actual path to execute the swap, just a platitude to shore up one's confidence when faced with the risk of ownership. As far as I know, any running 911 on this planet has the ability to produce unexpected, 4-figure repair bills with little warning. The 996 isn't unique in its risk profile. Sack up or sell it will ultimately be your choice.

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well, that settles it. I'm just going to take your advice and enjoy it. Seriously.

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The Claymore mine is a command-detonation device, and it is rarely used on the ground facing up. Claymores are designed as a horizontal anti-personnel firing mechanism, with the blast effect in a 'flat panel TV' shape pattern. One of the most effect uses of the Claymore is to set it against a tree, or other solid object(that you don't care about), then set a 55gal drum of diesel in front of it, with 5Lbs of Snowy bleach mixed in. The makes a nice explosion of little flaming BBs, kind of like poor mans napalm that burns, and continues burning after the flaming BB embeds in the meat-sack. Now, back to 996s.

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or you can kill a whole garage full of mice.

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Thanks Tony, this is the way I see it too. As a matter of fact I am considering removing my FSI engine and adapting it to a older chassis or perhaps a Beck 904.

Wow, I step away for a bit and hang out at the 993 lawnmower forum for a few days and totally missed this gem. It's a throwback. Glad all is well and normal in 996 land.

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Welcome back. i just got an email from the original owner.

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About what?

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i was able to track him down with a little sluething. I had a bunch of questions he was willing to answer. I found out the engine was replaced in 2001, which wasn't good news on a few fronts, but everything else was good. Like the original post says, the car only has 19k miles. The guy said he made it a point to drive it every couple of weeks to keep it lubricated, which is a positive. It's never given him any trouble in 16 years, not once. Since he didn't sell it directly to me I have now reason to believe he is blowing sunshine up my wazoo. He gave me a verbal maintenance history as well.

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I do understand you wanting your questions answered but IMO get the bearing done (wherever you feel comfortable) either LN or somewhere recommended and go drive your car I guarantee you'll forget about all the potential issues If you're still not convinced do your own pre-qual (if you can) then make a decision of what to do. Just for some perspective people have had very big issues post purchase (driving their car home!) just remember at present you don't really have any issues.

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Did you get a regular oil change interval from the previous owner? If so good - if not I'd get back in contact with him if possible. One major concern with low mileage 996s is very infrequent oil changes. On cars seldom driven, I would want to see a history of annual oil changes for the life of the car. The excuse, "the oil doesn't have any miles on it, so I'm not changing it" is a major red flag. In simple terms, the old oil becomes acidic and really creates havoc on the engine internals. I passed on a 996 purchase a few years ago for this very reason - the car was a 2001, needed over $9k in repairs, looked great, had around 20k miles because the original owner didn't drive it except around the block. It had one documented oil change since 2001. The "drive it every couple of weeks" is ok - but I'd want to make sure it got up to full operating temperature for a decent time - you don't want the 5 min jog around the neighborhood - you want a history of 20-30 min drives at temperature.