Car trade thoughts

OK As some of you may have seen in my posts I am a little dissapointed in the build quality of my 1 year old DD Japanese Porsche. So, my thoughts are that I love the styling but if I am going to drive a 996 maybe I should get one that is faster, turns better and stops better. GT3 I am then considering selling my 964 and my 996 and getting an 04 or 05 GT3 (red, ha gotcha there I bet!) The thought being that the rattles and such won't bother me nearly as much as I recklessly careen around the city impressing everyone while I risk life and limb? I really like my 964 but I never drive it and I could get one more car in the garage and out of the elements if it was gone. Down side is that it is perfect and has every mod known to normaly aspirated man. Fast as stink and I would never replicate it, so once it's gone it's gone. And did I say I really like it So who would make this trade? I have buyers for both of my cars and finding a red GT3 seems pretty easy. Will the GT3 make up for the hole left by the 964, a real hand built PCar that is just not modern enough for me to call it a daily driver? Or should I just sit tight and wait for something truly exotic to replace the 964 with, like a Lamborghini and quit mumbling about the 996. Longest post I have ever made.....idle ramblings of a man with too much real work to do so he freezes up Thanks

man.... if your thoughts of trading your 964 with something like a Lambo or a prancing horse, i would opt for that. your 996 is great DD for now, i know, b.c that's my daily grind, my other one is a 350z Twin Turbo...... i say, although i know you love your 964, sell it, because i don't think you can fetch a higher price later on if you keep keeping it, and wait till something you really want to come along....... this way, you maximize your investment, and space for another beauty..........and YES..... get it in red....... but if you do, i think you need to opt for the prancing horse, because the bull in red is not as pretty......

Japanese Porsche? WTF!!!!

Hey, this is just my issue with the car. Great car just not what they use to be. So, would you make this trade?

I think you are right on the price for my 964...probably as high as it will get. Maybe Ferrari but this kind if deal is a year or so away. What I am discussing can be done now. Not sure I have the patience?

Why not keep the 964? And just get rid of the 996C2 for a GT3.

What are you talking about, "Japanese Porsche" is a compliment

One way or another I going to get down to one PCar and then later expand my fleet from other countries....like more Italian This is a stop gap measure on the big wheel of cars and if I do the Italian now a GT3 is too much into cars for me now.

I battle this everyday, I want an older one because they are built so much better than a 996, but the 996 out of the box is a beast. The more I drive and ride in older models the more I realize that the 996 is almost heartless (woo, I feel a flame coming). It feels cheap to me, it used to feel well built coming from American cars but that feeling has washed away completely. I have been in every nook and cranny of the car and impressed with fit and finish but it lacks robustness. How did a car pack a thousand pounds over the '70s models but loose the robustness of the body and chassis. Examples: Front and rear bumpers, plastic pieces that break all over the motor (coolant/vacuum), sqeaky interior pieces (almost all of them are cheap and thin), button for my tip shifter pops off all the time (nothing like explaining that to people when it happens), tranny mount KO'd at 90k miles, oil separator (that job sucked, dont cut one open, it is embarassingly built inside), etc. I am done...........flame away

Oh the blaphemy! Trying to get down to one P-Car??? I'm starting to collect these damn things. But with the kid due in November, I need to stop buying cars and start buying karting gear.

Please tell me you're kidding. Explain to me how they were built better back when...... The 996 is hands down the cheapest to maintain P-car ever until the 997 came along. Not to mention the most reliable and the most problem free. And don't give me the RMS bs. That is an overblown issue as has been exposed recently wrt to gap tools, etc.

Yes...one going to college and one 4 years away. And Tippy, boy are you asking for it. I was a little more diplomatic IN COMIIIIIIIIING !

No Dell, it is in the details. Park my 964 next to the 996 and I begin showing a doubter the small stuff and they then get it. And that is even before we go for a ride. BUT, and there always is one. Porsche would be gone if they still built cars like they use to. So better to have them here than not.

Cheapest to maintain, yes, winner goes to the 996/997. Did I mention RMS, even though mine leaks, oh and the cam seals also, it is minor and I ignore it. Put a 993TT right next to a 996 TT and grab anyone off the street and ask which looks better built. The robustness shines through on the 993.

Hey, I do all my own work, I know how this car is built, I have a foot to stand on.

There is nothing wrong at all with my 74,000 mile 996. That is proof all your problems are figments of you're imaginations.

So you dropped the motor to replace the oil seperators? Wow. Now I understand why you are worked up.....

Will someone answer my questions?

The Boxster one is right there but the 996, well lets just say it is a little hidden, haha. I can laugh now, good learning experience.

Steven, how much do you expect to get for both cars? How much more, if any, do you expect to spend on the new P? Have you driven a turbo? I'm guessing you have... it seems to be in the price-range you're looking at. Are you considering one vs a GT3? I think you need to dump the 993 go and not look back. If later you decide you miss it, you can always get one. For now, look forward to what you want.

The two straight up for a GT3. I want something to track so the GT3 is more interesting to me at this point.

Cory, the operative word is "looks" in your statement. While a 993 may "look" better built and so on down the line, the truth is that it isn't compared to the 996.

Time to let 'em go and start a new love-affair!! I say GO FOR IT!!!! GT3, HERE YOU COME!!!

Oh I see your perspective now, a Corvette is "better built" than a 996 because they never have issues? My '95 Corvette never gave me problems all the way up to 126,000 miles (not to mention my friend who has had a few high milers) but we all know that a 996 is better built than a Corvette, why, because they are built more robust. What turned me off the most recently was when I looked into a 997, the cheap plastic in the front trunk and the speaker grills were sooo flimsy. Reliability and fit/finish are parts of build quality (the 996 has these aspects secured no doubt) but I am focusing on robustness. Look, I love my car but it feels a little less well built than the older models, just my opinion and to each there own.

I will stop talking less than much love for the 996's, I dont want the "other guys" exploiting this. If they do, all you gotta do to put them in place is say, "lets go to the track" and settle this.

You lost me when you starting to try and bring a vette into the mix.

+1!!

I hate to get into a flame-war, but dude? WTF? You say you see the point and that a GM Chevy is built better than a Porsche, then say the P is built more robust? I've never heard of a car that's built more "robust" and I'm not even sure I know what that means. I can promise you, even putting a Vette in the same league as a Porsche is ridiculous. I think a lot of people even on a GM board will concur.

Now that we're off topic.... I've owned and driven several generations of Porsches and Corvettes and still own a 66 Vette convertible I bought 17 years ago and have since frame-off restored. There is no comparison in build quality between a Corvette and a Porsche, unless you're comparing something like an 07 Vette and an 89 944 Turbo (which I bought new and owned way back when). The vette has come a long way, but the 996 is a way more solid car in every way. Ten minutes behind the wheel of the current models will prove this to anyone. Of course this is to be expected given that a new Vette costs a little over half of what a comparable Porsche costs. They have to save money somewhere, and they save a lot of it on build quality. I also agree that the 993 "feels" a lot more solid in many ways than the 996 (just listen to the sound of the doors closing!). I'm not sure, however, that this feel translates into better longevity. Only time will tell. I also don't know the production numbers for the 993 versus 996, but my guess is that when Porsche ramped production way up, that they were forced to go with more "mass market" parts and plastic to meet production.

OK Now that my whole thread is hijacked I will list the types of differences that mean something to me when comparing my 964 to my 996. Every square inch of paint on the 964 shines, trunk, engine compartment..... Every bolt and nut on the 964 is either plated or cad. No painted steel or many plastic fastners. Full window frames on doors gives it the "thunk" when the door closes. Door handle has a much more solid opening feel. Hand stiched carpet...real wool. No rattles in my dash or anywhere in the interior. Padded door panels hand stiched. Massive suspension components. And with all this it weighs only 2,850 lbs. By the way my 996 turns better and stops better than my 964 and is far more safer. But I buy cars for more than this. I am like Tippy in this regard I think, when I wash it or work on it I want to see and feel quality everywhere. The 996 does not do this for me and it seems closer to my daughters Honda than my 964 does. Now with all this said, 380 +/- hp and better suspension and brakes might change my opinion on wether this kind of stuff really matters to me? And that is my question....I think?

My point was that Dell says that the new Porsches are better built because they are more reliable. Corvettes are more reliable than Porsches, but does that make them better built, no. Robust is a word I have borrowed from engineers, it means stronger, better, longer life, and such.

I think this is yours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i89-UkDfC4U

Again, sorry to hijack your thread off topic, but this is an interesting discussion. I agree that the older Porsches have a much higher quality "feel" in the details, performance/reliability of newer models notwithstanding. I've driven a 1980's 930 (albeit with low mileage) that doesn't even show wear on the seat bolsters. These cars just seem to be made better. My guess is that they were hand built in Stuttgart to higher standards, given that the production was so much lower in volume. Here's what interests me about your post though. Why is it that such a solid car weighs so little as compared to the newer cars? One would think that all the plastic parts and developments in terms of stiffer/lighter materials would make the new cars lighter. Why are they heavier? Maybe it's because they're bigger cars? (I don't know the measurements, but a 996 sure looks and feels bigger than the 930). This may be a dumb question, so please, someone here with the knowledge shed light on this.

To answer your question It's still a 996... Now to the compairo part Honda!!!!! WTF Have you lost your mind

Sorry got to add my 2 bits. My bro use to have a 97 993 c2s, and I have to admit, when I first got in it, I thought it felt like a tin can. Someone earlier mentioned about closing the doors. the doors on the 993 felt light and more like a vw bug. Closing the 996 door feels solid. The interior in the 993 is simple and nice straight lines. Back in 97 it sure looked good. But compared to the newer models, i prefer the 996 interior. I do have to agree though that the lines of the 993 is much nicer than the 996. Proof in the pudding when Porsche goes back to that look with the 997. But as years go on, technology gets better, more power is added, so yes going with something new is always going to be better than something old. But who can argue about classics, we all love them (i have a 66 tbird). And don't get me wrong I love my 996. Being new to Porsche vehicles, I have a new found respect for that german engineering, regardless of what year they are.

Allrightythen... As a past owner of a 964 and 993 and now an '02 996 (cab) I feel semi-qualified to address your comments. But I'm only going to say this: the 964 was built when Porsche was just about to go under. Very few were made. So yes, you can argue that it's more "robust" and has higher quality components... but in the same breath, you agree that the 996 performs better. So it's all a matter of what is important to you. I think the 996 is a superior car. I can buy anything I want to, and right now I have a 996. I've also had three Corvettes (2 C4s and 1 C5 Z06) so if you really want to compare American plastic **** to the Porsche, I'll be glad to chime in there as well. Now: to answer your original question... the GT3 is just a fancy 996, right? Sure it performs better, but it's still at heart, a 996, with 996 components, and all of that Japanese stuff that drives you nuts now will continue to do so. You'll just end up kicking yourself for selling the 964. If you must have something new, go for something entirely different, be it the prancing horse or maybe something classy, like the Aston Martin? The Vantage V8 would make a fun (albeit very heavy) track car and quite suitable daily driver. Michael

Steven - get a CGT! If not that, get a 997 GT3. If not that, get a 996 GT3. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Oh dear God Michael, don't tell me you honestly beleive that statement. The GT3 is anything but a 996. Sure, it shares an aesthetic shell of sheet metal but that is about it. Understand that it has "required" components and look based on homolgation requirements. Let's start (just some points that have been made over time from the GT3 board): Carrera vs. GT3. Chassis: The GT3 chassis is the Carrera4, Carrera4S, Turbo, GT2 chassis (stiffer). The Carrera chassis is unique to the Carrera (Coupe and Convertible), the front chassis is shared with the Boxster. Body: Same body panels with the exception of front bumper, rear deck lid (including ugly spoiler on GT3), rocker panels. Most of the Carrera have sunroof, but the delete option was available. Brakes: The Carrera and Boxster S share the brakes. GT3 uses 6 piston front calipers and 4 piston rear calipers, on bigger rotors. The GT2/GT3 rear brake pads are the Carrera/Boxster S front brake pads. Bigger brake cooling guides on the GT3. Different ABS calibration on the GT3. Suspension: The front wheel carriers on the GT3/GT2 are shared with the C4, the Carrera uses the Boxster wheel carriers. Adjustable height coilovers on the GT3 vs. Coilover on the Carrera. Spring Rates (F/R): 146#/203# (170#/260# on M030) vs. 228#/543#. Ride height (F/R): 158mm/158mm Carrera vs. 125mm (115mm in RoW)/128mm GT3. GT3 uses front monoball camber plates vs. rubber upper mounts on the Carrera. Rear upper mounts are rubber on both cars, but stiffer on the GT3. Interior: No Rear seats on the GT3. Sport Seats standard on GT3 and optional on Carrera. No speakers on the doors on GT3, optional door speakers on Carrera. Reduced sound insulation on GT3. Rear carpeting with GT3 logo. Everything else looks the same. Wheels: 17" standard on Carrera vs. 18" standard on GT3. Carrera 18" wheels 8" x 18" ET50, 10" x 18" ET65 vs GT3 18" wheels 8.5" x 18" ET40, 11" x 18" ET63. Engine: Modular engine (a.k.a RMS-leaker/Wet sumper) on Carrera 2 with 320Hp (345Hp with X51) vs. GT1 evolved race engine on the GT3 (dry sump, 8200rpm redline, Titanium connecting rods, 380Hp underrated power). Transmission: Boxster S and Carrera have the same transmission, no LSD, no adjustable gear ratios, no rebuildable. GT3 uses the GT3Cup transmission with a different R&P (3.44:1), LSD, 3rd-6th gear can be changed, 1st and 2nd gear changes require a new shaft. The transmission can be rebuilt entirely (gears, syncros, seals, shaft, r&p, etc.) Electronics: no PSM available on the GT3, while optional on the Carrera. ............Oh forget it, try posting this over on the GT3 forum and then put on your nomex and kevlar.

Well, the board is as torn on this as I am. All good points and I appreciate the intensity of the discussion. I am not swayed yet but Dell's listing of the differences that I already knew is the reason I brought this up to begin with. Aston V8 I have thought about but repairs for that car out of warranty are not something I think I need. Quality of mechanical components vs. the GT3 I don't think compare. Remember in the GT3 I would be getting an updated 964 motor. Thanks guys and take no offense to my Honda remarks. That stupid first Honda I have ever bought, for my daughter, is a really well built car. Now if it were not FWD. Another board for that though.

Dell, I think Michael has a point. Which is to say that although the GT3 may be a completely different beast (I feel the same way about my Turbo, having upgraded from a C2), if Steven is unhappy with certain aspects of the C2, he's going to be unhappy when he goes to the GT3 because the same aspects of the car still exist on the GT3. That is to say that the interior is still (arguably) flimsy - the difference is in the mechanicals. In short, the door thud will be that of a 996, not a 964. Steven, I think you need to drive the GT3. Taking what I said above into consideration, keep in mind that I cannot stand Audi A4s, but love Audi S4s. *Some* of my complaints include poor visibility, too much sound deadening, a horrible clutch, and numb steering feel. However, when I get in the S4, I suddenly stop caring about the visibility, the engine note is so much better even through the sound deadening, the clutch sucks but is at least slightly better, and while I'm huge on steering feel, I guess the engine and chassis make me forget about it. It's very possible the GT3 engine, suspension, and other tweaks, both major and minor, would be enough to help you forget the issues you list. Someone made a good point that an AM would make for a great DD, though. If you are looking for a refined interior with heft, beautiful lines, and a fun engine (albeit with different engine characteristics), it may be hard to beat. As for reliability, though, that is a point I cannot speak to, however. It's possible that the gorgeous and sturdy interior (or mechanicals) may be fleeting..

Compared to a 993/964/Carrera 3.2? I feel the exact opposite, yes, the doors are heavier on the 996 but more solid I dont agree on. Post the statement about the 996 doors feeling more solid on the other forums and it will turn into a flame war real quick.

I totally agree. Which is why I said that outside of the aesthetics, the car is completely different. If he can't get past the "look" of the 996 then he will be disappointed. I too think the interior is cheap looking. But in my my 996's I have full leather which helps a TON. However, get in a GT3 and drive off and you will NEVER think about the "cheap" looking aesthetics ever again. FYI...there is NO tweaks. It is completely different. Different motor, tranny, suspension, etc, etc, etc.. To think there are tweaks or God forbid the argument some like to use ("it's a highly tuned 996") is one that will send a GT3 owner into fits. I'm trying to restrain myself. Just don't post this argument over in the GT3 fourm

FYI I like to looks of the 996 even better than most 997's.

well congrats dell...... your November kid is going to coincide with my November kid also.......

That's awesome! Congrats right back