Went for a drive last night-car tramlines a lot - normal?

I noticed the car following grooves in the road on the way back from picking it up on Long Island. When I got home, I found the tire pressures were all over the place, so I filled them up, and headed out last night. Car still tends to fight me, like it wants to go it's own way when it hits bumps or channels in the road. The rear tires are new, the fronts are a little worn. 18"ers Is this just sensitive steering that I am not used to, or do I have a problem?

of course it's going to wanna fit into the grooves

thats called tramlining its normal on the most part but might want to consider corner balance and alignment...good excuse for a suspension upgrade

They pretty much all do this. Wide tires with low aspect ratios and stiff sidewalls make it worse as does low tire pressure. A lot has to do with the roads too. Get used to it :-)

Yeah, that's the term I was trying to remember! Would a good alignment geared towards street driving (as opposed to the track) allow the car to settle in easier on the road?

Varies by tire size (width) and manufacturer (tread pattern) - so you may want to review what's on the front wheels and change out for something different.

I have the old (original?) Conti Sport 2's on the front, and new Conti Sport Contacts in the rear, replaced before the dealer sold me the car. To get all the tires to be new and matching, I would have to buy 2 Conti Sport contacts for the front. But those tires don't get good ratings at Tirerack, so putting good money to bad might not make sense?

I find the 996 has very sensitive steering, always course correcting. Plus given the roads in the tristate area, get used to it!

It�s the tires. I had Conti's on my A4 which tramlined horrible. After switching out the tires I didn't have the problem anymore. I also have very little tramlining on my C4. My $.02 is that it is more due to the tire and tread pattern. Switch out the Conti's and I bet your problem goes away.

You need an alignment You don't need new tires

Alignment. See if you can get the dealer that sold the car to foot the bill.

I had Conti's on my car when I first got it. The fronts were the original SC's and the rears were SC2's. I now have Michelin PS Ribs. The car has never tramlined on even pavement. It still doesn't tramline too bad on a grooved road. Certainly not near as bad as my best friends C5 Vette. My vote is to have the alignment checked.

I'll get an alignment. I wont bother calling the selling dealer, who will say the alignment was fine, and that I must have hit a pot hole, etc, etc. Cost of doing business with a small dealer 2 hours away! What does a 4 wheel alignment usually run, so I can see if my mechanic is honest?

Cost at my dealer down here was $105 Only a dealer or race shop will be able to do it. A reg alignment shop will not be able to do it. You should be in and out within 2 hours

A local indy who does good work (a lot of the PCA'ers use him) charges $150. The dealer $250.

I'm guessing you have the 18's? It depends what you're used to. Coming from my MB (205/70-14) to my parents' 996 with 18's it feels like a ton of tramlining. Coming from my brother's BMW (225/55-16) the 996 still has more but not nearly as strong a contrast.

Huh? I had mine aligned at an alignment shop.

Wow, your dealer is cheap ($50 an hour)! In my area, 2 hours of dealer work would cost me way more.

I guess you got screwed... J/K Firestone, Tire America, the local Euro Shop that works on Porsches and also the race shop that only works on Porsches did not have the equipment to do the alignment. I'm in Richmond, Va and don't know about local shop around you. After talking to all of the above I was told every time that the only place that has the right equipment was the dealer or race shop. The Race shop down here does it by hand and it takes most of the day doing it that way. I will say one of a reg alignment shops attached to a gas station did say he could do it but he couldn't get me done in the time I needed so I called all the others above and now I believe the alignment shop was going to screw it up if I had gone with them. Hell Even Firestone said they don't have the right equipment.

I don't think it took them 2 hours, thats how long I had to wait until I picked it up. It probably only took 30 min for the tech.

My mechanic says to bring the car to STS - they have a new laser machine that will work on 996's. I thought STS was for Hondas--no? Is it better to pay another $100 to have the dealer do it, or am I being too ****?

STS use the latest wheel alignent technology supplied by Hunter and should be fine

How do you define "fights you" - i think everyone is talking about different things. If you take your hands off the wheel and the car tracks straight, it is not an alighment issue. If the car goes to left or right, get an alignment. But if you are talking about how if the highway dips slighly (say 10 deg angle to the left) and you keep the steering wheel to the right slightly (Like .1 to .25 of an inch) , that is normal for the car. The steering is sharp, not mushy - it is very unforgiving.

Good to know. But, that means I have to let an STS guy drive the car into the service area...

Good point! On a flat, level stretch of new road, the car goes straight. Going 70 on the highway, where the road changes surfaces and levels due to repairs, etc, the car wants to dart left or right to follow the road irregularities. Know what I mean? So am I back to tramlining, which is normal?

Tramlining is bad in Camaros and Corvetts for sure, the 996 is pretty good about not tramlining.

Depending on how quick it jerks one way or other, and how quickly it resets to 0, it sounds totally normal. I had it with my 01 and 03...

You need an alignment I had the same problem.

I'm sure most modern alignment shops have the equipment to work on a 996 but they may not want the hassle. There really isn't that much to it. I align my race cars (same basic suspension) in my garage. I'll probably do my street car next time to. It's actually sort of fun. As for your car wandering a bit, remember, a stable car is a slow car. A car that wants to go straight doesn't want to turn. Jim

So, bottom line, it wouldn't hurt to get an alignment, and may help, but some tramlining / wandering is normal?

I can't believe how cheap labor rates are in other areas of the country. Here in the San Francisco bay area an aligment cannot be had for less than $200. Most places (dealer, race prep shop, etc) are $230-240. (alignment only, not ride height adjustment or corner balancing, ie. PSS9 alignment) I'm going to a Porsche independent with a "spring special" of $199. Everyone tells me it is a minimum of 2 hours. This is on a new Hunter rack. Porsche labor here is about $115-$120 an hour. Andy

IMO If it is hard to drive with one hand then get an alignment.

thats a good rule of thumb actually.

At some points, it feels like taking a hand off the wheel would be too risky! Alignment!? Even if the car isn't pulling one way or the other (on level ground)?

Personally I don't think it's alignment. I think it sounds like normal tramlining, and tires might have some effect on how much it tramlines. Mine tramlines a lot on groved and bad roads, my alignment's good. My other cars with wide tires tramlines. On good surfaces they run straight and perfect. But of course, an alignment for a new car you just bought, wouldn't hurt.

It isn't JUST an alignment that is going to cause or cure tramlining. Tires have a big impact on tramlining, and I'm surprised how many people here quickly discount the tires as being part of this equation. Each tread pattern responds to the grooves in the road differently, and tires alone can make a huge difference. One of the reasons I bought my Goodyears is because they don't tramline so readily (look for reviews that cover this subject) - unlike my old Michelins that followed every crack and crevice. I didn't get a new alignment, just tires, and it was night and day.

Andy Let us know what you do and how it works out.

What was the outside temperature?Summer tires get squirley at lower temperatures!!

Totally agree. Have seen big changes, even on my previous car - a roadster - with tire changes. A:B comparisons on the same cars, including my C2. Tread design, maybe. Sidewall stiffness. Even age.

This used to happen to me on the Autobahn in an old dearly departed Beemer. I had to get all my suspension bushings replaced. Was pricey but it fixed the problem. Re. Alignment. A local tire shop has one of the optic systems. Am not sure that laser is exactly correct, even if the tire shop does use the word. Have a long, exceedingly positive, relationship with them. An alignment (4 wheel of course) costs $100. They will happily let me stand there and watch the LCD screens as the mechanic does the alignment. They'll even put one of the guys in the driver's seat to properly weight the car. And they'll happily set it to whatever settings I want. Don't have that positive of a relationship with the local Porsche dealer. Their senior mechanic may be the best Porsche guy in a couple hundred miles, but it's the junior dealer mechanic that does alignments and their gear isn't nearly as sophisticated.

Well, I met Ross (RCG412) tonight, and he drove my car (over 100 mph), and he agreed that there is something not right with my steering/front suspension, or something. The car pulls to the left all of a sudden, then, rides straight, then, pulls again. It just doesn't feel right. His car is more rock solid. If I have to hold onto the wheel with both hands, fearing the car will leap all over the road--something's gotta be loose. Ball joints? Tie rod ends? Wheel bearings? Something that should have been picked up on the PPI at least. I have to wait till my warranty kicks in (the check is in the mail), then let my mechanic put the car on a lift and check the front end out. My warranty covers front suspension, so I should be OK. But it's not a good feeling to think something's not right with my car! Stay tuned!

thats sounds like multiple problems, alignment, corner balance, wheels, tires, pressure, thread pattern...check them all...GL

Andy, can you describe the tramlining in more detail? What precisely are you doing when the car wanders? What happens under heavy braking, heavy acceleration. Light braking, light acceleration. etc. If you are driving straight and lift off the throttle, does the car jump to one side or the other? Jim p.s. don't be driving 100 mph until you figure this out.

Alignment

It may be alignment. You really can't adjust caster but the toe could be way off. Front or rear or both. But it could just as easily be a worn rear tie rod (very common) or some other suspension part.

The PPI would have or should have picked that up. I'd be on the phone with the PPI shop if I thought it was anything to do with the suspension

I would hope so but it's really not that easy to tell that a suspension part is worn by just inspecting it. The forces generated on the road are far greater than you can duplicate with the car on a lift. Having said that, if it were me I'd have the alignment checked first. It's easy and cheap.

Dont you mean camber?

I would think that if the alignment was off, it would cause a consistant condition, pulling to the left, or right, etc. This is more of an inconsistant loose condition, where when cruising in 6th gear, the car wants to break left, you correct, then it stays straight--then it goes right, so you correct again. Driving with one hand is not an option! I have to check the lug nuts. I'm hoping someone forgot to torque the front wheels on. If not, I'll get an alignment. But if it's a worn part, the alignment will be a complete waste.

I'm thinking toe. If for some reason the car has no toe or just screwy toe like a bunch of toe out at one end or the other it's going to move around as described.

Andy, jack the car up and see if you have more play on one side than the other. On the rear tires grab the tire on the front and the back and see if you can "turn it". It won't move much. You'll just have to compare one side to the other. If one side moves slightly, you likely have a bad rear tie rod. This is a very common problem with 996s that are tracked. Usually it results in the car pulling to one side when you lift though. Check the tires for play. I'd focus more on the back than the front but check both. Put the car on a jack stand, remove each tire and grab each suspension part and check for play. You can also put a wrench on the various bolts and check for tightness. If you are not comfortable doing this an independent shop can go through the process in very quickly. Proabably less than an hour. Good luck, Jim

I drove the car last night... thinking more about it, it could be alignment - cant hut to get it done. Let me try to describe the issue in more detail. Car pulls straight as an arrow, but if you turn the wheel slightly to the left, it seems the steering "hops" and pulls hard to the left... almost like a massive amount of torque steer (but it is not torque steer). The problem I can most relate it to was an old saab that had broken teeth on the rack/pinion steering... it was fine, but when you hit the broken teeth on the rack it would jump. I am not saying it is the rack/pinion system, but thats what it felt like. Agreed - would not drive the car >100mph with this issue. Other than that - car is in beautiful condition... Really nice 00 coupe (actually felt good to be back in a 3.4L)

That is not always true. I had the exact same problem. Car would dart on it's own and would have to correct and hold pressure. Then 5 seconds later it drove straight. Then it would go the other way. I have been where you are. Had suspension check had all four tires replaced and then alignment. The only thing that help at all and corrected the problem was the alignment Think of you car walking on its tippy toes. Try doing that all day and see how stable you are compaired to both feet planted. Let us know what you come up with Later Aaron

I gotta go with alignment as the possible cause. Aaron was in the same situation, and an alignment fixed his problem - sounds like a no brainer at this point. I'll go to STS this weekend, and report back! Thanks for all the help, and thanks for insisting Aaron!!

I got the alignment. The toe was off, especially in the rear (.76 difference from spec). STS aligned the car. Took it out on the highway, and it STILL doesn't feel in control. Still have to jiggle the wheel back and fourth to keep the car from veering. To add insult to injury, the alignment machine mauled my near-mint rims. I'm convinced as soon as you have work done to your car, it wont stay in mint condition. Plan B is to bring it in to my indy mechanic, to see if he can spot a broken or loose part in the suspension. And, my radio is worse, with the interfearance coming on right away. No cell phone near the car, engine off. Must be a ground issue, right? How do you get this head unit out of the dash? Another thread, I guess!?

What do you mean by jiggle? Does the car still dart hard? Does it feel better or worse after the alignment? Sorry about the rims. Are they going to have them fixed for you?

Here's an update. I went back to STS, to get the front wheels balanced (thinking maybe they were out of balance, causing my problems). When they took the wheel off, the inside half of both tires is almost bald !Very worn, I need new tires. Would that be causing my problems?

Was it like that when you had the PPI? That was what my rears looked like on the out side before I had my alignment, but it took 2500 miles to really notice.

Alignment is off. Probably toe-out which also causes darty steering, espescially when braking.

Just had the alignment set perfectly. So now I will buy new Potenza RE050's all around. That should fix me up good, no?

Andy, For what it's worth, the Potenza RE50s are not N-specification tires for the 996. They do, however, get good ratings on the Tire Rack website.

N, shmen! ZR rated Bridgestones are fine for my spirited highway drives, and trips up and down Main street. The N rated Conti's SUCK, so there. If I was doing DE's I would respect the "N". Not in my case though.

I don't have N-spec tires on my car, either. I have Bridgestone S-03 Pole Position tires, but they've been discontinued. I'm in the market for tires, and I'm thinking about getting the Bridgestone Potenza S-02 A tires. They happen to be N-spec, but the RE50s are a worthy competitor. Decisions, decisions!

Bad tires that are balding badly on the inside of the tire could certainly have created a bit of the problem. New tires always makes the handling of my cars feel better, and given Porsche's sensitivity, it's to be expected that an out of whack alignment (esp. toe out as it sounded in your case) and rubbed tires can have an adverse impact on steering. I'll be anxious to hear what you think when you got the new rubber installed.

Check the Tirerack survey. The S03's are not rated very well, and the RE50 Pole Positions are top rated in almost every catagory. I'll be getting them! Hopefully that will solve my handling issues. I should be getting the tires installed on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll let you all know how it goes.

andy, sorry to hear about your issues-- but i suppose this is a good way of getting to know your car! as a side note for those who may be shopping for cars (esp people like me-- i'm not mechanically proficient and quite lazy), i think these issues and inability to go back to the dealer is a good reason why buying CPO makes sense-- they have a comprehensive cpo checklist and will spend time/money to get the car right prior to putting up for sale. for instance, in addition to fixing other items, my dealer installed new pirelli p zeros. and for the first couple weeks, i was always taking my car back for 'little' things-- no questions asked. anyway, just my .02 which can hopefully shed light for others shopping for p-cars. sounds like you got a great car otherwise. good luck.

Andy - have to ask - how the hell could STS have done the alignment and not noticed the inside wear on the tires? And they damaged your rims! I'd be getting some compensation, then going somewhere where they take more care and know what the hell they're doing.

Beauty is, my GE warranty covers ALL electronics, including the stereo. So, if worse comes to worse, and there is a broken tie rod end, I can bring it to Porsche, have them fix that, the RMS, and the radio, for a $200 deductible!

The alignment has nothing to do with worn tires, and it was off, so I had to have it done anyway for the new tires. When I told the owner about the rim scrapes, he said there is no other way to clamp the alignment cameras on the rims. What can I do at that point?

complain until you get compensated. that is unacceptable for anyone purporting to run a legit business. if there truly is no other way, then they should have advised you first before using their system. obviously, not all alignment systems will damage your p wheels. if the franchise owner does nothing, perhaps you can call corporate, or threaten to, and see what he thinks. good luck.

then he should have warned you that it may cause possible damage.. you dont just do something a particular way regardless if it will damage something. and obviously he knows it was his fault.

sorry to hear about all that youre going through... just a word of caution. deductibles typically are for per occurence. so the three things you mentioned would be three occurences or 200x3. doesnt matter that you take it in at the same time. i know this was the case with my bmw cpo and geico mechanical breakdown coverage. might wanna check that so you arent unpleasantly surprised later.

just to add to that, part of the benefit of cpo is having a relationship with the dealer and the goodwill that comes with it. if i have a neurotic issue with my car, i just bring it in and they take care of it. real simple. no questions.

I didn't read the trail, so this might be a double post: sounds like you might have a toe-out alignment. Get your tires aligned with a slight toe in, and you should be right as rain. Oh and upgrade your suspension. And get a supercharger. But that's everything you'll need. -td

Yup, just got an alignment yesterday - rear to was out. Front tires are shot, so I need tires. Hope after tires and an alignment, I'll be fine. If not, there's my extended warranty. As for a CPO, I would have if I could have. But there are no Porsche dealers near enough to me to build a relationship with, and the one that is kinda near has not had the best write ups here.

Good point, but I checked my contract - $200 per VISIT!!

FWIW, My experience with worn inside fronts....is too much negative camber. What this looks like, and you can actually look at the front tires and see this, is the bottom part of the wheel/tire is angled out in relation to the top part of the wheel/tire. Looks like this / This is how you would set a car up for the track, as it makes the car handle (turn in) really well.....but, you pay the price of very premature tire wear (inside fronts bald) A lot of higher performance cars are setup mildly from the factory like this.....as it's a cheap way to make the consumer think the car handles great. but, it doesn't sound like your car handled very well at all.....so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to write this.

Well, I put the new Bridgestone RE050a PP's on the car, and drove it on the highway for the first time tonight. Night and day people! The car practically drives itself - no jitters, no tramlining, no more vibration at 70! Cured! Now I can drive the car fast without worrying. The worn out front tires were causing the whole problem. And when the Bridgestones wear in, they will be even better. I'm psyched my car isn't at fault!

Good to here the car's running good

I'm running Pilot Sport II, and after about 10K on them, I've noticed they're just starting to tramline. This discussion thread brought it to my attention. I do know that I recently upped the air pressure in the tires to 34 front and 42 rear, and it seems that right after the increase in air pressure, I started noticing the tramling. Does air pressure contribute to tramlining? How about as the tires wear?