How important an option is PSM in your opinion?

I'm in the market for a 996. Found a nice 2003 996 C2 at a local dealer. I can get the car for $44.5K, which seems to be a great deal. I originally told myself I wouldn't buy a car without PSM, as I'm only an average driver and like the thought of having it as extra insurance, especially on the highway and/or in wet weather. The price of this car and the ease of obtaining it (I'm getting a good trade in value for my current vehicle, so don't have deal with trying to sell it) is making me reconsider. It's by far the cleanest and cheapest 996 I've seen locally to date. How important do you think PSM is as an option? Should I reconsider this car? Also what do you think about the price? Here are the basics on the car: 20003 C2, 18K miles, one owner with all service up to date and warranty valid Arctic silver over black partial leather 6 speed, power seats, xenons, bose stereo, CD changer, 18" sport wheels with new tires, aluminum shift and brake leather trim, rain sensing wipers, porsche crests on seats and wheels The car is immaculate cosmetically inside and out. There was a bumper repair at the dealer but it is impossible to tell from looking at the car.

I don' t consider myself to be a great driver....about average I'd guess...and the PSM saved me one time on a rain slick street. That sold me on the technology, but whether I'd pass up a really nice car because it didn't have PSM?....probably not.

I think it would be a nice thing to have, but not a deal breaker if it wasn't there. If my wife, g/f, or daughter were going to drive the car also, and I lived in a city with lots of weather (rain/snow), I'd prob look for a car with PSM. 99% of the time you aren't on a race track, or racing other cars- you're just on the streets and you never know when you might need it.

Well, I bought mine a few months ago, and it doesn't have PSM. 2 days into the bliss of owning a Porsche I got a little careless, took a sharp corner too fast and next thing you know I'm spinning then facing the opposite direction in traffic. This was on dry pavement! I quickly learned how different a rear engine sports car really is. You don't need PSM, but you have to be careful and RESPECT her because otherwise she will take you for a "spin". That being said, after that event I've done a couple of Autocross events which raised my skill and confidence level much higher. I know her limits and all is well, dry pavement or not. Personally I've found not having PSM has made me a better driver. So my suggestion is take yours to a couple of Autocrosses, spin her out there, hit a few cones, and learn your beast before stretching her legs.

remember it is PSM not PMS. if you have any snow it is unequaled in rear end control.

I have to say that I am glad that I waited and found a unit with the PSM in it. For one I don't like having buttons that don't do anything and for another, the rare times that I am caught in the rain with this car, it drives like any other car would in the dry. 911fiend- Explain to me how you get this thing to spin out. I have tried over and over to get the back end out and it just won't go. I love to stick the tails out on cars and have been able to do it with ease on every machine that I have had but this one won't budge. I take the corners and intentionally shift at the apex and it barely wiggles and I really do try hard to break it free. Even with the PSM off it barely moves on me. Before flaming me, I want to say that I am merely trying to find out what it does and how it will react so I know where my limits are and in no way and I wanting to damage my toy. Buy a car with PSM. Don't think-do.

I would like to have seen a minty low mile '03 for that cheap, at a dealer! PS--I don't have PSM, and with my new rear tires, taking a turn at 40 mph in my neighborhood, the back end slid a little before snapping back in line. Seemed very natural, and in control. Kinda fun, for the split second. Thanks, Porsche!

PSM is the only way in my book...

Stability management is, by and large, a crutch that makes a lot of people think that they are better than they are or that the laws of physics do not apply to them. Yes, it is nice as a safety net but far too many people rely on it to save their bacon from poor decisions that they made because they had the stability management program. As suggested above, I'd get the car if you want it and then learn how to drive it properly. An autocross course is a great place to learn the limits at low speed and experience what it feels like for the tail end to swap with the front. A driver's ed (DE) event is a great place to again learn some limits but at a slightly higher speed with a qualified instructor. If you haven't experienced a spin, you will, assuming that you push the car at all. Rcronin, you're not trying hard enough. PSM will reach its limits with even marginal effort.

personal opinion is that PSM is a fantastic option. It saved me twice. In its standard US configuration Porsche has dialed in a huge amount of understeer in the 996 with smaller front tires, pretty tame alignment settings and suspension stiffness in the front. So the car tends to push......but the laws of physics still say there is a lot of mass in the rear and if you do loose rear traction and that back end starts coming around PSM will save you. Again if your intention is to explore the limits of the car PSM is worth considering. Whatever you do though, you'll be happy.

LOVE it. Ive had alot of 911's . My current car is the first one to have it. I dont think Id go back. Its come in handy a few times, especially in wet weather.

I have spun my car out 180 degrees at approx. 50 mph and have slid the rear several times at 80-100 mph. It is scary as hell at those speeds because it feels like it will never recover but once you are at the point of hopelessness, it snaps back in place. Id say get it if you can.

I think I understand where you're coming from. Not trying to be a p...ssy here, so let me give you some background. I'm a former Navy F14 driver, which was the last of the manually controlled fighter aircraft (a bit like a 930 turbo). I also spent a bit of time in the F 16, which would be more similar to a modern 997TT or a MB 500SL in terms of technology. I hate to admit it, but the F16 blew away the F14. The fly by wire technology would take an average pilot, save his ***, and make him a hero in any real world situation. Go back 20 years ago. I was in the passenger seat of a turbo P car, when my friend missed the boost coming on and swapped ends into a telephone pole. Luckily we walked away unhurt. A year ago I spun my friends GT2 off the track in wet weather and walked away again. Like I said, I'm an average driver, but I understand learning the limits of a car or airplane and respecting them properly. There is no substitute for experience. I'm not looking for a crutch with PSM, but thinking it might be a worthwhile life insurance policy on the one day I'm not paying enough attention on the highway when someting bad happens. You only live once. So what I'm asking is this. Given that the drivers on this forum are people who are trying to learn to drive their P cars well in "the envelope" and respect their quirks, would they be willing to pay an extra chunck of cash for PSM anyway? Would you pay an extra $5K for PSM or take this car without it?

and by the way, thanks for all the great candid responses to my question. Greatly appreciated!

Well based on my experience it's not a must have. These cars are extremely grounded even in wet weather. In my case the spin out was an extreme case. To answer rcronin, I was coming into what I thought was a 90 degree corner at around 35-40, but since I was too busy chatting w/my buddy noticed way to late that it was actually a sharp 45 degree corner, so I had little choice except to turn in hard. Since the front tires track so well despite the designed-in understeer the back just whipped around and voila instant spin. It didn't help that I actually tried to give it GAS while I was oversteering/correcting. It was a bad reflex move from all my years driving FWD cars. In my last Autocross it actually rained, so it was a great chance to see how it handles wet, and it was actually very stable and predictable. Although I did spin out 3 times, I did so because I wanted to so I'd get used to it. Otherwise the 996 could double as a high speed boat. Check out my pic! To add one more thing, one of the other guys at the Autocross that day had PSM on in his Cayman. He was pondering shutting it off for one run, which I convinced him to do. He spun out almost right away! But he learned from it.

Palladio: That was an excellent explanation and comparison of the manual vs. technological approach to controls....and it certainly is relevant to the discussion at hand. I guess considering the fact that it just might save your *** in that one situation when....regardless of your driving style or expertise....that you start to lose it either through "pilot error" or external forces....it would be awfully nice to have a fly-by-wire co-pilot in there to straighten your *** out. It saved mine once, and it doesn't bother me a bit if some folks think you're a ***** if you drive with it on....but are you saying that it's another $5K for PSM? I had no idea there was that much of a price tag on PSM.

If you can..get it.....There is a high speed sweeper at a freeway onramp from another freeway near my house....its banked and not really sharp....most cars do it at around 70...I found in my old Boxster 80-90 was a piece of cake...in my C4 Cab...100 is easy, but kinda scary since you know you are going pretty fast....well one day on my way home, I was doing maybe 60-70...at the most, posted speed limit is 55 I think....midway through the corner, the entire car felt like it lost all grip...front and rear...car went sideways, and the PSM lights lit up like a xmas tree....before I could put any steering input into the wheel, the car corrected itself and I was through the turn...never knew what happened, never happened again, but PSM save me from a hard cement barrier.....In my opinion its not just for pushing the limits of the car, but when unseen things come into play as well...oil, ice, etc....It happened to me and it was completely dry...musta been oil....

Doesn't matter how good you are (and noone is as good as they think they are), situations will pop up that is beyond your control. Some of the best race car drivers to EVER drive died in crashes- and they were twice as good as most of us *think* we are.

Please understand that I wasn't intending to call anyone any names. I just see way too many people who think that the stability management allows them to do things that cannot be done. And I do agree that it is nice to have in the event of a major brain fart. And it works pretty well. I intentionally pushed the wife's Benz to force it to engage and it did, before I could put the steering inputs in. But, I would not pass up a great car/deal just because it didn't have it.

I live in Seattle and I am looking for a car with PSM. As much as it rains here six months out of the year, and that dreaded week every year when it snows, I am figuring PSM will be good to have. It seems though that PSM can also save headaches, limbs or even lives in dry climate neighborhoods, from the anecdotal posts above.

Well said. rcronin - I think the inability to get the tail out has more to do with your set-up than with PSM interference. When my car was stock it was the understeer pig. I was at a PCA event where the idea was to get your car to spin (in a very safe skid-pad environment). For the life of me the back end wouldn't come around - lifting mid corner, forcing all the weight up front - it wouldn't budge. It just pushed. I upgraded to PSS9s, made some alignment tweaks and added wider tires up front. The car is now much more biased toward oversteer. fwiw.

I'm don't know the facts, but my guess is all of this PSM/driver assistance and electronic throttle linkage technology was a trickle-down from the aircraft industry. I'm also pretty sure that ABS braking was first developed for aircraft. All the modern fighter aircraft are fly-by-wire, as well as the newer commercial jets. When the technology was first introduced into the fighter community, there was a fair amount of debate over its merits. The older guys also thought of it as a "crutch" that would ultimately lead to a dilution of pilot skills. However, the technology worked so well that this debate was squashed pretty quickly. For all the bravado of the guys in my community (F-14, which was the last of the manually/hydraulic linkage contrrolled aircraft), most of us secretly wished we had the new technology. You won't see many guys coming aboard the carrier on a dark and rainy night on manual in the F-18 Hornet - they will all be doing "coupled" approaches with auto throttle and auto pilot turned on. There is probably some truth to the argument that the very best and most experienced fighter pilots could push the envelope further and get more out the F-14 in a dogfight, because they're not limited by a computer when on the edge. However, I'd say this was true of a very small handful of people, even in a community full of amazingly skilled guys. The computers in the newer fighters can react much faster than a human can, and they also free up the operator to focus on on the bigger picture by reducing stick and throttle workload. Auto racing is different of course, because it's a sport that emphasizes driver skill and seeks a somewhat level playing field in terms of technology. In combat the only goal is to win and/or live, by whatever means. This includes fly-by-wire technology. It would be interesting to talk to an engineer from Porsche or Mercedes and ask whether they took some of this technology directly from airplanes.

You are a WIMP if you need this option.

And you are a tool.

+1

Yes I am a wimp. I lay awake at night crying into my oversized pillow and wishing I could be a real "M3killa".

Yeah - there's no such thing as a wimpy Killa!!!!!!

I will never buy another car again without PSM. We have it in our Audis as well as the 996, and it has saved me from a major shunt in the Audi at least twice. I call it the "hand of God", as when the car gets in over its head, the Almighty reaches down and straightens the car out. While you still need to be a good driver, it allows you to get out of more situations then you would have without Stability control. Find a car with it! It is better to be a living wimp with it than a dead dumb *** without it!

Here's some food for thought: 1) Based on research, the NHTSA is making electronic stability control mandatory safety equipment for all cars and light trucks manufactured by the 2012 model year. 2) If you watch the Best Motoring International video "Porsche 996 Turbo the King?!" http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Best_Mo...1853714045_5_0 A professional driver runs a 2001 996 TT through a gymkhana course (similar to an autocross) and the car runs about 1 second faster with PSM turned ON. 3) Neither Michael Schumacher, nor Walter Rohrl can do what PSM can do e.g. apply braking to just 1 front tire.

+2

I had the PSM over-correct once, it braked one front wheel while the rear end was off the ground. I bet it thought "WTF?" when that happened. Then it braked the opposite rear wheel and all was well.

All good points and very well put. This thread has just confirmed what I was feeling in my gut. I'm going to be a "wimp" and cross the non-PSM cars off my buy list. Thanks to everyone here for offering their advice and opinions.

PSM was a must for me and I wholeheartedly recommend it: not only it can literally save your life under extreme circumstances, but it also allows you to explore certain limits that you otherwise couldn't. I regard PSM as smart complement, not a terrible limiting factor of fun. Unlike most other traction control systems, which are tuned to be overtly intrusive (and sometimes end up being downright dangerous due to sudden/unexpected interference), PSM complements enthusiastic/aggressive driving, rather than counter-intuitively toning it down. Even for all the "killas" who are deeply convinced they are Senna's next incarnation, there's an extraordinarily simple solution: turn it off. To learn your own---and the car's, to some extent---limits, you should turn PSM off and have a go at it under sensible conditions (track days, DE's, AX, driving schools, etc), until you know, and are comfortable with, your limits. Then turn PSM on and explore the new limits it offers. There's some trade-off between perceived fun and ultimate speed, but I can't say I have less fun with PSM on than off. Just different. Here 's some pro perspective on this. RE price, I'd figure the premium for PSM should be around 1-2 K, which is definitely worth it. 5K seems a bit steep. Whatever you end up going with, good luck

It will save your A$$!!! Don't ever turn it off either, for no reason what so ever!!!!

I laughed out loud - good one. Oh yeah - and let's not forget that the great Senna died tragically in a car crash.