DD - 993 or 996??

I'm sure this one has been done to death elsewhere but I'm not finding it...looking to get into my first Porsche and wanted to see if anyone's got a point of view on this. About a year ago I came super close to getting into a 40AE, but chickened out and went with a 335i instead. Of course, once bitten its tough to shake the Porsche bug, and have been trolling the 993 forum for a good driver-quality 993, but can't quite get my head around the idea of using a collector car for a DD. On the other hand, springing for a high quality 996 is still an option, but I wonder if it'd be a letdown compared to the air cooled Porsche experience... Thought I'd throw this out there and see what happens. Any and all insight welcome. Thanks!

Same issue I had, went with a 02 TT 996. Will get a 993 next year.

I purchased a 1999 996 built 3/98. I am very pleased with it. It was inexpensive, especially compared to a comparable 993. Plan on spending several thousand in addition to the purchase price, unless the car you are buying has had all the maintenance records (most don't) and the important preventative maintenance has been performed. You can drive the heck out of it guilt free.

All these buzzwords, Daily Driver, Collector Quality, various model series, etc. There are people who drive 5 miles in a day, and other people who drive 100. Some people could literally walk as much as they drive in a day, and others drive long distances in rural areas. What's the weather like, over the course of a year? What is your toleration for being stranded? Do you drive through areas where being stranded could be a real challenge or even dangerous, due to a multitude of factors? The whole idea of racking up the miles in a 15 or 20 year old (or even older) vehicle is not my idea of the best way to enjoy an older classic or semi-classic automobile. But then, that is just me. At the moment, and this will change, there is no shortage of 5 or 6 or 7 year old fun-to-drive cars that one could use as a daily driver. But a 15 or 20 year old car? I'd buy the latter, in fact I have one that I like a lot, but I don't use it for transportation, I use it to enjoy driving it, in circumstances where a possible breakdown is an easily managed annoyance, not a disaster.

Thanks all for your insights - keep 'em coming! At the moment the 335i is great, and it's 4 years old and absolutely 0 issues. The idea of the 993 though, and this is admittedly weird, is that there's a bit more going on than just point and shoot simplicity in driving. It's certainly as fast as a 993 or stock 996, and it's a fun-ish car to drive, but I kind of want a little more out of it than there is on offer. It's good, great even, but kind of antiseptic. That could mean modding the 335 maybe a bit for performance. But it's not really the same. I'm not too concerned about a breakdown as my commute is 20 miles of LA freeways punctuated with blasts out the Crest or Big Tujunga on the weekends. It could happen but I'm not too concerned about getting stuck, more about the associated cost of breaking down. And the BMW does deliver on all that in a pretty cost efficient way. But still... On the 996. An early example is a good idea that I've played with a bunch and might be he best introduction? IMS issues are ever present until they are sorted, but at least I wouldn't be looking at a top end rebuild pretty much straight away. Any other issues you've run into?

Moving this thread to the 996 forum since an identical thread was moved to the 993 forum. If you prefer, I can easily move this to the 993 forum.

Sell the BMW. Buy a Porsche.....a 993 or 996 (whichever your wallet and risk tolerance will allow).

With the 993 you may, at some point, find yourself regretting DDing it due to the impact in value. Not to mention if it gets in an accident or something. You can find yourself a good looking 100k+ 996.1 in the $15k range. By that milage most of the major concerns have either been addressed or proven out to not be a likely issue for the car. You can also pile on the miles with little impact to value and if the worst happens, you can still by another one and still be less out of pocket than for a 993. As far as differences, I haven't spent much time in 993s, but they are both 911s at the end of the day. By the numbers the 996 is lighter, more powerful, and faster. What little I have driven 993s says that I see very little difference for normal driving situations. They both get you from A to B with no drama until you start pushing things. I'm more comfortable hooning around in our 996 C4 than a RWD 993 (never driven a 993 C4), but that's likely knowing our's better so I know exactly how far I can push it in any given situation.

This is a no-brainer(which is why I'm posting, lol). The 996 has all the comforts of home. It's like a modern car, with working AC and everything. As noted, the 993 will suffer depr if you DD for two years, plus risk of theft, damage, accident. Buy mine, and I'll have the IMS bearing put in at cost. You can DD it for 10 years with just regular mx. I deliver to SoCal.

Great stuff! I bet the opinions change if it gets moved to the 993 forum

+1 on the 996, for the same reasons Docmirror mentioned. Then, sell the Beemer and get a Cayenne for when you need a bigger ride.

My 996 has been good for a little over a year as DD. I put about $6k into refreshing some vitals (IMS, AOS, coils/plugs, etc.) and it's been a reliable car on 500-1,000 mile road trips as well. I'm more focused on steady maintenance than anything else. Changed the oil last month & already have 1,600 miles on it since then! A 993 would work well imo if you buy one that has a lot of miles and a rebuild under its belt. Lower cost of entry = lower risk of depreciation from commuting.

gnat - you were very helpful last year re: 40AE. Looking back I should have bought that damn car. Right around the same time I went back to see it in person again, and the door color thing that I thought was a problem really wasn't. The extra power on that car is great and the lower suspension makes it feel super dialed-in. And now every time a 40th comes up I'm like "ohhhh......" There's one in Long Beach with like 93K miles on it for $25K. Hell of a lot of car for the $. My dream C4S got sold so need to look for another one, good news is that they are way easier to come by than the 993. In the end its tough to say no to modern conveniences, lower maintenance, newer safety tech and fewer worries about it being stolen or keyed or wrecked or whatever. Wallet and risk tolerances are fine, though one big top-end rebuild and I'll be super pissed at myself for doing the 993. Anything other than IMS / RMS I should look for on the 996? Anyone worried about D-chunking (sounds rare) or anything else?

I've owned both. there is just no way I would subject any of the air-cooled cars to a commute in SoCal traffic. Stop and go with the AC running all the time? no - effin - way. Get an early 996, put in the center(3rd) rad kit, 160F thermo, new WP, clean the rads and you are set. ymmv, contents have settled, objects in mirror, and may cause **** leakage.

Don't forget the ice-cold AC blowing without overheating your water-cooled engine when stuck in LA traffic jams.

This was what I was thinking on the 993. Problem is if any other gremlins come up they get expensive quick, to be expected but if I want to stay (happily) married I'd do best to avoid it. I've already gotten the "what happens when it's in the shop for a week and you can't get to work!" speech.

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THIS is what i need to know. Awesome. I have an uncle (don't we all?) who DD'd his 1970something 914-4 for 33 years from Newport to DTLA. I asked him the other day, how many miles were on your 914 when it died? He said he couldn't remember, though it was 300K+ and only did one rebuild at 100K. When he retired he sold the 914 as a roller for $1K and got a 964 targa for $20-$25K 10 years ago, had 33K miles on it at the time and now has about 95K. On the one hand, kicking himself for selling the 914 out cheap, but I think he did alright with his 964. It's stories like this that keep me coming back for more on this silly car.

Some classics on the subject: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...3-sort-of.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...he-middle.html

Lot's of good feedback. It's really going to come down to what kind of driving experience you're aiming for during your commute. While the 993 and 996 are adjacent generations...the way you experience each is different in many ways. Not better or worse...just different. What 'checks the boxes' for you? Have you spent much time behind the wheel of each? If not, then find time to do so...that'll go a long way towards answering the fundamental question. Other questions...depending on how long of a commute..do you want a relatively more 'modern' environment with cold a/c, electronics, etc. Would you see yourself being more concerned daily driving a 993 based on price or scarcity versus a 996 which are plentiful and relatively inexpensive? I personally switch daily driving (20 miles a day) duties between a 93' (E34) M5 and 03' Targa. I love the variety...they're vastly different vehicles...but they scratch 'that itch' in their own ways. Life is too short to drive boring cars! Good luck! Kevin

If I was going to DD a 993 I would only do it with a basketcase car or salvage title or something. A well sorted, well documented, lower mileage 993 at this point is too valuable to DD. They are collectors items now.

I suggest this as a compromise. It has interior quality of the 993, sound of the 996, and fuel economy of a prius. Comes with manual trans too!

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This ^^^ I know a number of 993 owners.... none of them daily drive it.

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Mmm...minty.

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Too true. And the basketcase will end up costing me about the same as a nicely sorted one in the end. Same cost but higher miles? Meh. But if I get a 993 I'd get to go to Luftgekult next year! /s

Seems like an easy decision to me. If you can afford a 993, go with a 993. I cannot see choosing a 996 over a 993 with cost being the same.

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Well this won't change a really well sorted 996 costs HALF or less than half what a well sorted 993 is going to cost. Excellent condition 996 turbo = $50k Excellent condition 993 turbo = $125k- $350k.

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I don't disagree. Some of the mechanics I've talked to though have taken the same position, that it's going to be more expensive to fix the 993 over the 996 and that any 993 you'd want to drive reliably is going to cost more in today's market. I don't want to make it sound like cost is no object because it certainly is, and I can afford either but the question is whether I should. Admittedly that's a personal call but a really tough one to make.

I'm sorry. I hate to say this, but no one DD's a 993 and enjoys it. If they say otherwise they are not being honest. Sure, 20 years ago, it may have been acceptable. But now? No way. 993's have been relegated to the collector car and special occ car now. The 996 has all the modern conveniences and comforts we expect in a brand new car. For a DD - and I mean a real DD, as in only car, every day, all day, there really is no comparison. The 996 is modern. The 993 is old. That being said, you would be a bad *** if you really drove an air cooled car as your DD. And I mean really DD - 20,000 miles per year, etc. no back up car. I was going to do that with a 964 carrera 4 before I got my car, but while every time I test drive an air cooled car, I appreciate it, I could not seriously do it every day.

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Yeah, that's the sense I get. Other buddy had a '78 targa he DD'd for like 2 months and it was cool for a minute, but ended up in a 997.2 after selling the targa. I'd be happy to be a badass. Like, in June when it's cloudy all day. In September and October, when its 100+ for weeks? Not so much.

993 as one and only car in LA is tough but doable if you live/work in the right areas. Example would be live on the Westside, work in Southbay, park the car on weekends unless you going for an early morning jaunt in Malibu. Need to get somewhere through crappy traffic - bike/public transit/Lyft. But if you're going through gridlock regularly, I'd say 996. Other option: 993 + motorcycle!

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Yup, absolutely, that was me 10 years ago. But now I'm in the foothills driving to downtown every day through 2 / 5 / 110 traffic each way, potholed roads in downtown LA on the way home (I have 2 "out of round" wheels on the E92 to show for that!) and have developed a taste for winding out Angeles Crest on the weekends. As much as I'd love a bike, that won't go. But I'll make room for you when you split lanes.

While I agree that a 996 is probably a better daily, I guess I'm shocked that nobody daily's a 993. I DD a 3.2 Carrera for 3 years and if it wasn't for the terrible AC, I didn't see the issue. Also, 996s and most 911s for that matter aren't really any better when it comes to shedding heat in stop and go traffic. Most any 911 isn't very well suited for that purpose. Fans will be on high and heat must be monitored.

I would also suggest than if you are in stop and go traffic a manual transmission could drive you insane, in which case perhaps a 997 with PDK if you can't tolerate a tiptronic?

There is an article in the PCA magazine from last year about a doctor that daily drives his 993 75 miles each way. I compared 993 vs 996 before buying my 996. My takeaway was that the 993 was going to require lots more commitment to keep rolling. In retrospect I wish I had purchased the 993, but only because it would have been a considerably better investment.

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But perhaps the moral is buy the 993 for the investment and the 996 to enjoy driving?

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Interesting you mention the manual...the E92 is a 6 speed and I was rather reluctant to get one given the traffic. However it's been great to drive and I love having total control over the power band, which I think I'd miss somewhat with a tiptronic. On the other hand I know folks with 993 tips who track them and prefer it to a manual, so who knows. Plus, my friend's 997.2 is a PDK and he loves it, and he's much more of a driver than I am. For now. If nothing else the E92 has been instructive in that its showed that having a manual isn't a big deal (for me) in traffic. My wife, on the other hand, has no desire to go back to her '68 VW Beetle days. Not that it's her car, but if it helps sell it in, may be worth considering!

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I get the sense that you don't like the 996, so why do you have one? I've been stuck in stop/go traffic that took an hour to go 1 mile when it was 106 and cloudless sun. The 996 ran a tad hotter than usual, but nothing more than I'd see if I was out giving it a good flogging for 10-15 minutes (e.g. touching the right of 0 in 180). AC did a fine job keeping me cool the whole time and I never once considered the temp more than my routine pass of the gauges to make sure all was good. Other than piled up snow I have yet to find weather conditions that the 996 doesn't handle with minimal consideration. Unless you've done the CDV delete (we haven't on our e90, so I can't compare), the e9x 6speed is significantly easier to shift than the 996. Not that the 996 is hard, but while I hate the CDV for shifting accuracy it does have a nice effect on shifting in stop/go traffic. The 996 is geared a bit nicer though, in my opinion, so that if you are careful you can crawl along mostly in 2nd with little shifting. Feels like I have to shift between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd more frequently in the e90.

The whole comment about driving a stick shift in stop and go traffic can be applied to any car. It really bothers most people, but never me. I'd rather be stuck in unbearable stop and go with a stick shift than a regular car any day of the week. Maybe I'll change when I get older. The investment comment could actually also go the other way around. A 996 oils double in value in 10 years but a 993 could stay flat. Nobody knows. Does a 993 really cost more to keep rolling? I'd bet that a 996 should be a similar cost, or could be more costly if an IMSB decides to flake out.

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No CDV delete on the E92. I've just gotten used to it and the turbo to the point where I can match revs without paying much attention. Revs don't drop nearly as fast as I'd like them to in the BMW, though. Took almost a year to get there, but I'd been out of the manual game for like 15 years before this. I do remember that the 40th was easier to shift than the 996 C4Ss and Targa that I drove a year ago but those cars may have just needed new clutches. The E92's manual is like a more forgiving, not as accurate but still engaging version of the 40th. 2nd in the E92 is a little tall for crawling super slow but most of the time it's fine.

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Well, crappy commutes aren't ideal for any 911 as indicated, but it would be better than the 993. But you know "daily" is a loose term when it comes to old P-cars. I have worked from home or taken the motorcycle a few times because I couldn't finish a repair during the weekend or evening.

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Exactly. My only car is my 996, but I work from home or take the train when I can. The car can sit for a week and not be touched, or driven 4 times in 1 day. And there's Uber/Lift by me, which is better for bar hopping or guys night out.

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My understanding is thats the CDV (e.g. it doesn't engage the clutch immediately when you tell it to). You're right about getting used to it though. Jumping back and forth between them is when it gets really annoying as I always try to drive like I'm in the other...

Well, you've got to tally up your receipts before you can measure the true return on your "investment". But I'm told it's bad form to do so.

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I don't think it's so much bad form as it is "you're really not going to like it"

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Yup - sometimes you're really not going to like it, and other times you're really, really not going to like it and still other times you're getting your *** handed to you! Hence the avatar, no?

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Hah! No, that was a planned expense and also didn't account for 50% of the bill for that shop visit. I just thought it was funny and a bit irritated to find a dual row (as I would have just left it be) when I expected a single. Besides, her's is a one owner car. Hard to make it look worse than that initial check I wrote I also have rough idea of what we've spent over the years (within $500) at any given time. While I could buy a decent 996.1 at today's prices for those costs, I don't regret a penny, mile, or day.

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The whole point. Ever consider the targa side of things? Good looking one near me is going for $24K. Supposedly everything's done (IMS and clutch) with about 64k miles on the clock.

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Trust me on this. Add the center rad kit, 160F T-stat, good WP, and clean the rads and condensers. No problemo Signed: Man who drives a 996 in DFW traffic in August.

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We have a 996. It's not a .1 C4 to convert for track. I hate sun roofs (yes her's has the sunroof delete). It has ugly headlights. I enjoy driving my Cayenne much more than her 996 (it's fun, but I just like SUVs apparently).

I have both so can give you a ton of information as I drive them back to back all of the time. First, these are both wonderful cars to drive. They both have quirks, pros, cons, etc... They are at the same time familiar, yet totally different. It's crazy when you drive them back to back every day. I would not DD a 993, but love the car Here are some of my observations: The 996 is a much easier car to drive around town The 993 hates to go slow - the first to second gear "gap" is laughable. Parking lots, traffic, stop lights **** the 993 off. The 993 feels like a classic, special car - the 996 feels like a modern everyday car by comparison - it's just boring compared to the 993 You will get lots of looks, thumbs up, random people yelling cool car, etc... in the 993. The 996 - not so much. Insuring the 993 is a pain - remember normal insurance doesn't work when the car isn't depreciating To drive the 993 smoothly takes relative amounts of patience and skill, the 996 is simple to drive like a modern car Steering feel is very similar AC works properly in a 993 (or should work properly) even in very warm weather The 996 is far easier to work on - some may disagree but routine maintenance takes more time and effort in the 993 The 996 is a major leap forward in performance (power, chassis stiffness, etc...) It is immediately noticeable when you drive them back to back - they aren't even in the same league. The 996 requires bolt on parts to get "creative" with alignment - the 993 gives you more adjustment from the factory The 993 alignment is more temperamental (see above) - you need someone who knows how to properly align the KT on a 993 if not you'll be chasing issues I could go on and on...

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...this would be a "no" on the targa! Sounds like a pretty solid stable though. May go make a trip to check it out this weekend. Feel like a dope for not moving on the C4S but buttons come and buttons go but do we cry? Goodness no! We keep on singing...

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DUDE. This is awesome!!! Thank you for sharing! Everyone I've talked to (IRL) so far basically said the same thing but in much more general terms, this is far more specific and useful. If I were local I'd be knocking on your door with a 6 pack and a pizza for your thoughts. So C2 over C4 or C4S, any reason other than taking them on the track? I don't think I'd track my car and I don't generally drive 10/10, so not sure if flex or weight is too much of a concern. Love the big greenhouse on a targa but hate sunburns and creaky / leaky roofs.

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Yeah, with mods, I'm sure its way better.

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Drive some and see what you like best. I prefer a C2 narrow body car - but only made that determination after driving some of each variety. There's no reason not to track a C4 or C4S - AWD has pros and cons. Lastly, the Targa doesn't creak or leak if it's maintained properly, even as they hit 20 years old (I've spent time in a 97 993 targa). The issue is that most people don't do their homework when something goes wrong and mis align the roof or even worse fill the drains with RTV or something. Both the 993 and 996 targas are special and relatively rare cars. If properly maintained they are functional works of art. If complexity scares you - stick with a coupe - but they should not creak or leak. There's so much false information on the targa floating around. One thing that is true, if the targa top has a major issue you're in for a world of pain as there are only a few in the US that I'd trust to repair one.

C4 vs C2, you can easily remove the front drive parts from the C4 to have yourself a C2. You can't upgrade the C2's chassis and have the same stiffer chassis as the GT3 which the C4 comes with.

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The C2 steering is definitely lighter and more responsive, to the point of being twitchy almost. C4 is much more stable and secure feeling (particularly in inclement weather conditions), and it tracks better than the C2. I'd consider it to be the better daily driver, in general. All C4s had PSM, which may also be something to consider. Having both and driven them back to back, I think C4 is the objectively superior car, but the C2 is a more engaging drive and the steering feel is just untouchable. Hard to go wrong with either, just a question of what your priorities are. Only real reason to go for a C4S is the widebody look (or if you simply *must* have an AWD 996.2 coupe). It doesn't substantially move the performance needle from the narrow body cars, I'd say, but it is the best looking variant of 996.

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Hey Vivek! Bring that sexy C4 down to LA so I can check it out!!

I DD a 996 in back breaking Boston traffic for 10 yrs and put about 80K miles on it, but enjoyed EVERY single drive. Really. I have dreams about it at times. I now DD a brand new Audi S8. It's a $130K of tech and power and comfort but boring. I regret selling my 996. Spend a little extra and buy a well sorted 996.2 and enjoy.

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Yup. The E92 is $30k (on a very good day) of Bavarian ***-hauling but not that engaging. It makes most other cars look totally incompetent. Blew through Elysian Park tonight with the sunroof open and music up loud, but it's kind of blah. It's even been described as a German Accord. Ouch. For S8 money you could have gone a lot of different ways, it's a gorgeous car but did you need the extra room?

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Yeah, I needed the extra room to carry kids as I do morning drop offs at school on many school days. They have a lot of gear etc but I def did not want a SUV, and the Panamera only seats 4, I needed a 5 passenger vehicle. I looked at the AMG S63, Alpina B7, and the S8. The S8 was faster, more of a sleeper, (3.5sec 0-60mph) and $40K cheaper than the Merc or Alpina...

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I'm sure the kids don't mind speeding off to school in the S8. Quite a sled, that one. And you *could* use the $40K saved on another 996. Just sayin'.

Have you tweaked/tuned your 335i at all? I have both a 335xi and a 996 targa. I bought the 335xi recently as an "all season" daily driver mostly because my commute to work is only a few minutes and the engine never gets fully warmed up. While they are completely different cars, the e90 chassis, road feel, and visibility is much better than I was expecting. Definitely not as good as the 996, but I'm not sure I would sell a newer 335i to buy a 996 as a DD. Now if you were looking for a weekend canyon carver then the 996 wins hands down. With a $200 tune the n54 engine can easily put out ~370hp without other modifications, and it can easily be increased from there. I must admit that I wish my 996 had that amount of power. My point is that if you are used to the 335i's torque you might want to seriously consider a 996 turbo (which may still be cheaper than a 993). Otherwise you might miss the power. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my 996 Targa and I'm hoping to keep it for a very long time. But I don't mind the 335i as a daily driver.

My '99 Aerokit is my daily driver and I love it. She's almost to 78k miles now. She has dealt with stop and go traffic in both north Texas and Atlanta in the summer. Searing temperatures outside and never an issue with coolants temps. The AC is ice cold and I never have it on full blast because it would freeze me out. I put in a low temp t-stat last summer and the coolant temps run even cooler now. I love the air cooled 911s and hope to own one someday, but it would be miserable for me as a daily driver. I have a 9 and 6 year old and they love daddy's car. The sound from my TechArt mufflers and subtle vibrations emanating from the transmission tunnel usually make them fall asleep too. It's funny to watch them doze off almost every time.

I've thought about a Cobb tune for the E92. I have the N55 motor and have to admit I love the torque and power already there, and know there's much more to be had if I wanted to tweak it. I also have the M sport package and am thinking of the M performance suspension. That is, assuming I don't get the '03 targa for sale on the PCA site... I'm also thinking of just waiting for a great '99 to come along. For some reason I think those early 996s are hitting that point where it may get more difficult to buy in the coming years. What I think I've hit with the 993 is that it's possible to DD, it's just not advisable. Maybe 10 years ago but not now. There's a point where these cars just go past their DD days and it makes far more sense to preserve and enjoy them while they're still here, than to waste them on the grind of a commute. That's what Teslas are for. Anyway, on to the 996... I do wonder which is the best 996 to DD? Maybe another thread?

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Probably a well-maintained, mid to high mileage Carrera which has already had its IMS dealt with, if you are looking at a cost-benefit analysis

If you're not doing track, I'm inclined to say just get the one that looks best to you. All will be capable of providing more performance than safely usable on Crest. I was bent on a 996.2 C2, but the 996.1 aero is really gorgeous. For the 996.2 - the C4S is a popular choice due to the turbo look.

I have owned both. For a 50K budget. 996TT as DD. 993 as weekend car. You can also do better with a 996NA. Great value there. Agree with a 996 MKI aero or C4S options mentioned.

I drove my 993 to the shop today, so I could go test drive 4 different 996s.... All of them are faster than my 993, but none of them offer the same experience. Thats just me. I have to agree about the creature comforts being better with the 996, for sure... But if I want creature comforts, I drive my 500E, and not a Porsche. I like Porsches raw, which is why I normally drive my 911 SC with open headers, carburetors, and nothing thats power assisted other than the brakes.

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First - thank you Jake for all your work on the 996. Knowing there's a way to handle the IMS issue, even if it's "overblown" and treated as a maintenance item, is a huge relief to many a 996 owner, I'm sure. I don't even own a 996 and I'm sure I'd walk right past it and head for the 997.2 if it weren't for FSI and LN. The aftermarket really stepped up where Porsche didn't, and that's saying a TON. The other option is to keep the E92 for now as a DD and save my pennies for an aircooled for Friday-Sunday. That might be the best of both worlds - rock solid reliable *** hauling during the week, down and dirty aircooled for the weekends...and when the E92 goes then maybe the 991s will be reasonably priced

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I would love to have a $50K per car budget, alas... There's a sweet 996.1 close to me that could work well. May check it out over the weekend if I can make it down to Orange County. Then again, some great weather on hand this weekend, not much going on Saturday morning, tough to say no to the Crest when it's 2 offramps away!