PPI First time buyer Question

I have been trolling 996�s for quite awhile now and have begun searching as you seem to be able to buy a good example for $20K or even less. I have found a local shop near me that specializes in imports and particularly knows Porsche�s and even keeps IMS on the shelf in stock. They recommend doing the PPI but the problem is it is very unlikely I will find one for sale in a close enough proximity where the selling entity will allow me to take their vehicle unpurchased all the way to my home shop for a PPI. My next immediate thought was call local Porsche dealers in relation to where the vehicle sits for sale, and their offer on a PPI was a fair price, about $150 same as the Indie shop but they are backed up for a month. What is the best way to have an independent third party check the car over prior to a purchase? The vehicle I am looking at has no service records so no evidence of the IMS being changed but if you are able to purchase a 996 for a price that you are comfortable with leaving you with the ~$3K for parts and labor, where does that leave you? It seems you can buy ~75K mike 996�s all day long with no service history and no IMS done prior. I�m sure that is a red flag to some but if you buy the car right and immediately have the work done yourself by your personal Indie shop, seems actually more peace of mind than just seeing a receipt from some unknown shop. I apologize for the lengthy first post but really hope someone can help point me in the right direction. Thank you in advance and any typos I blame autocorrect on my iPhone!

Bottom line, I wouldn't buy a 996 that I couldn't do a full PPI on, and I recommend you don't either. One will turn up, be patient.

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I�m not sure I understand, one will turn up? I�m trying to find out how to go about getting a trustworthy PPI done and what it should entail realistically? Do you mean one will turn up within a reasonable distance to my Independent shop near my house?

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If you could give us an idea geographically where you are located and where the car is located we could probably be a lot more helpful. 1) You could ask a Rennlist member to do a "Rennfax" for you. (RL Member local to your car goes and looks at it for you.) 2) Ask for recommendation on Rennlist for shops in the location you are shopping. 3) Reach out to the PCA chapter local to the car you are shopping and ask for PPI recommendations. Assuming seller is fine with you paying for a PPI, either the seller agrees to drop the car off for you or you arrange for a tow truck to pick up and drop off. Just beware that the seller will probably want a copy of the PPI. Since you are paying for the information, not them, it's technically your information even though it isn't your car. BUT it may be a bargaining chip to play if you really, really want the car and the seller is playing hardball with releasing the car. Every scenario is going to be different in the used market depending on whom you are dealing with. I bought my car from a consignment dealer and they were incredibly gracious and helpful in arranging for my out-of-State PPI, as they saw my request for a PPI as me being a serious buyer. Some sellers may see it as an attempt to find faults in the car to low-ball. Some sellers may know full well their car is going to show serious issues and will flat out deny. The ball will be in your court how you want to proceed. FYI, since you asked, I would only do business with people who are amicable and willing to work with me. (Unrelated but I'm surprised you found a Porsche dealership willing to do a PPI. From what I've heard my local Vegas dealership won't do them from a liability standpoint and I barked up that tree in 2015 in the Bay Area and couldn't find a dealership willing to look at a car.)

Thanks that is some great info. I am in RI near 02893 and I have seen a few cars pop up in NJ near area code 08817. This particular seller seems to be a smallish used car dealer that already agreed to having a third party come and check the vehicle out to inspect but am unsure how he will feel about it leaving his property to have a PPI done. From what I can gather oil would need to be drained to inspect for unusual amount of metal shavings and would want the computers scanned for any codes, over revs, etc and none of that I don�t think could be accomplished on their property. I am glad I came here first before quickly buying! I find it odd that many techs say better to find one that has been regularly driven vs a low mile garage queen but I notice about a $10K disparity from a 25K mile 996 vs a 75-100K 996 which honesty baffles me unless it�s a rare GT3 or something where no miles are desirable for collectors. I�m looking for a driver no doubt.

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I didn't see this question in your OP so I didn't address this. Think of a typical PPI the same as a used car dealership "100-Point Inspection". They'll let you know how worn the wear & tear parts are. (Brakes, Tires, etc.) You should get stuff like paint thickness readings, condition reports on interior & exterior. They will let you know if they see any leaks or items that they can see will need to be replaced. Essentially, they will not put hands on the car mechanically or take it apart in any way unless you pay them to. There isn't a cheap way to inspect the IMS so forget about the notion of "inspecting the IMS." Anything like a compression test, blow-by test, or borescope is going to cost the shop labor rate on top of the PPI cost. So now you're asking yourself - how much do you want to find, and how much do you want to pay to walk away? Yeah I feel like the consensus here is that with a car that has been driven a lot "If something were going to happen, it would have happened." And I think that sentiment is often directed toward our friend the IMSB, however now we have Bore Scoring to play with. Lots of people see low-mile cars as explosions that should have happened a decade ago.

I'm relatively new and just went through the buying process in March. As far as high mileage vs low mileage, the reason for that is the way the car is used/driven and how the oil gets distributed in the engine and gets diluted. The two big failures on these cars that can often trigger the engine needing a rebuild are the IMS bearing failure and bore scoring. Both of these are caused by oil issues. A low mile car is often driven for short trips or is stored in cold weather. The ones that are stored in cold weather are often started once in a while for 10 or 15 minutes, left to idle and then shut down just to keep things "lubricated" What happens in reality though is that when the engine is warming up, the computer is dumping a lot more fuel than normal into the cylinders and diluting the oil. So, both the cylinder walls and the IMS end up being subjected to oil with a high concentration of fuel a good percentage of the time. At the same time, many of these cars can go for a year or several years without an oil change because, hey, it's only done 4,000 miles in the last few years. Search YouTube for "adventures in bore scoring" and find the one about preventing bore scoring. Since you're in an area with cold weather, bore scoring can be more of a possibility. So if you end up getting a low mile car, a PPI with a borescope from the bottom of the cylinder via the oil pan can be a very good idea. They've found out that the bore scoring starts from the bottom of the cylinder. From what I've seen, the bore scoring usually starts on cylinders 5 and 6. So if you want to save some money and some of the shop's time, you might compromise and only have them scope 5 & 6. It's not going to be a $150 PPI and you'll have to find an owner that's OK with removing the oil pan. I'd steer clear of sellers that bristle at doing a PPI. Do NOT use a dealer. I have read lots of posts from people who were disappointed with dealer PPIs. I also think the dealers are more familiar with the newer cars as those are what they see all the time. To be honest, I did not have a borescope done on the one I bought. I'm in southern California and the car spent its entire life in warm weather. I did my PPI (around $450) at a local independent Porsche specialist. The guy who did it daily drives a 1999 like mine and did not think checking for bore scoring on this one was warranted. I was OK with that on this particular car. Hopefully that wasn't a mistake. We'll see. I was talking with a guy in Phoenix (a short flight away from me) about his car and was in the process of arranging a PPI with an independent shop there. However when I heard he hadn't changed the oil in the last 3 or 4 years, I backed out of the deal. I was lucky enough to find a car in my area.

A $150 PPI is not worth doing. For that money, the only thing the car is getting that you can't do yourself in a parking lot is a ride on the lift. A cheap PPI will ensure that you get working headlights, decent brake pad wear, and good wiper blades. Wanna know about the health of the engine? That's gonna cost a bit more.

Great tips thank you. Plot thickens. Found a 62K mile 2000 model near by. I can easily check this out and have my independent shop take a look. This car comes with receipts for IMS, rear main seal, clutch/flywheel and timing chain done from a local Porsche dealer. A timing chain done so early seems odd but maybe since it was out for IMS they were advised to go ahead anyway?

If you are still looking in that zip code ( 08817 ), I recommend calling John at http://www.highmarques.com and ask him for some recommendations of PPI places nearby. He's not a bullseye for location, but he's close and should know. Keep asking questions and getting feedback. The RL brain trust can be incredibly helpful. Good luck in your search.

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great thank you!

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I had no PPI done on mine, went from Boston to Brooklyn to buy it and drive it home. It came with 15yrs worth of records Had it looked at by a local Porsche mech and was given a list of things it needs - none of them catastrophic YMMV

I also purchased my 2000 C4 Cab on the last day of Aug 2019 w/o doing a PPI. The seller had a work order showing that the IMS clutch were done w/2 yrs & 5k miles. That was my main concern about buying the car. No PPI (no matter how thorough, unless you drop the engine and tear it apart) will tell you if the IMS/clutch has been done. My "routine" and rudimentary operational PPI of the car revealed a "good sounding" engine w/no smoke or obvious leaks underneath but did reveal certain problems (mostly electronic/cosmetic) that I have already fixed. There have been no "surprises" (yet). FWIW, I have bought/owned around 100 cars/trucks/motorcycles in my lifetime, never did a PPI on any of them and never had any major problems (beyond normal maintenance issues, except for the 1 noted below) w/any of them either. I did once have a chronic clutch slave cylinder problem w/an Austin-Healey Sprite back in the 60's when I 1st started driving and had no experience w/cars generally and British cars in particular but I was able to trade it for a simiar vintage Triumph Bonneville motorcycle that I enjoyed much more. This doesn't mean that a PPI is of no value but I don't think it is "essential" if you have adequate documentation of how well the car has been maintained and have a decent level of experience evaluating cars that you are interested in purchasing. However, SH*T happens and you are always taking some "risk" when you buy a car or any other type of vehicle. Just depends what level of risk you're willing to accept and how much $ you have on hand to "fix" whatever breaks. For a 996, I think it best to have at least $10k available for both expected and unexpected expenditures. I've already spent about $3k on the "expected" and am due to spend an extra $2k on the "unexpected" ($1.8k for fuel gauge/tank problems which were my fault and $250 that apparently is the fault of my Indy shop for improperly bleeeding the brakes) for a total of $5k. So, I'm still under "budget." LOL!

I passed on a 2000 996 C2 with 62,000 miles. Asking $23. Had everything I wanted, aero kit, black on black with console delete! i walked because the condition showed lots of wear. Interior, every piece was falling apart, exterior had plenty of dings and touch up in spots but the shifter seemed wrong and caused me to not go into 2nd gear initially a few times. Car steered and rode great but exhaust had no cats and was not a fan of the sound. I ended up passing on even a PPI. Hopefully I don�t regret but just didn�t feel right. Clutch felt very heavy, aftermarket I imagine. That was the first 911 I have ever been in so I have nothing to compare to be but hopefully the smart move to pass in the first and if gut said no, well then...

It's okay to walk when you're not 100% certain. What part of the interior was falling apart? Being older cars with miles there'll be some exterior wear. I only have 32k miles and the front end needs some TLC from rock chips. Can't speak on the shifter, only thing would possibly be a short throw rather than OEM. Clutch in mine is pretty heavy, at least compared to my previous manual vehicles, think that's nature of the beast. Heavy is of course a relative/opinionated measurement. There's a lot to factor when you're spending the money so it's good that you're staying aware of details. There's plenty out there, when the right one comes along you'll know.

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Always go with your gut feeling. A pass is a pass. Hopefully a good one will be next.

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the shifter lacked the spring mechanism that normally brings it to center, is that normal? I am used to a spring helping pull towards center on 2-3 shifts, 3-2, etc. clutch was heavy and release was high but not an issue I don�t think just something I wasn�t used to. Not shifting into 2nd gear under moderate acceleration worried me but honestly felt more like a shifter issue. Every single button was worn/faded and felt loose, sun roof buttons were barely held in place, ceiling material was starting to peel back just a bit and droop. It only had 3 owners! But the 3rd was a very young man who only owned it for 3 weeks and I couldn�t really understand his story for wanting to sell already. He said he realized he wanted more power and was now looking for a 996 turbo. the exhaust was a concern to me for passing in my state of RI with no cats. Didn�t sound good either like that but man I�m in love with these already. The view driving is incredible, like a go kart and even 20 years old it felt extremely planted and well built. This had JIC coil overs which I was impressed by.

Nope not normal, should return to center so there's definitely something up with the shifter. The buttons aren't too surprising, especially the sunroof buttons which are notorious for falling out of place. One of mine is starting to do this. His story sounds more like a young man who wanted a Porsche but didn't consider all the things you did before since he's only had it 3 weeks, upgrading to a 996T just sounds better. With everything you've noted I would have passed on it as well, for around $23k you can find one that will be much better sorted.

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Garage Queens tend to have problems vs a driver has been tried and proven...$150.00 won't get you the type of PPI needed for one of these engines.

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Thanks, and I felt the power was just right! I�ve had big hp cars and while fun and addicting, you always want more and to me, a 911, particularly 996 and older is about balance and perfect blend of performance that is usable and enjoyable every day.

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it at least will scan for codes, over revs, etc but thank you. I imagine you�d at least need the oil pan dropped, oil examined etc...

It's worth noting mine was the cheapest C2 coupe with a 6 speed in the country. It had high miles (133k) which I was ok with because of the driver vs garage queen mentality.