Does anyone want an M3

It seemed like the right thing to do. I wanted a car that I could use as a daily driver but was less flashy than my dream 911. I found a perfect 2002 with 30K miles and all the options I wanted, 100K dealer bumper to bumper, dealer installed Dinan goodies (7K) and a usable back seat for the kiddies for 35K. I should be happy right? Its just not a 911. It doesn't have anything wrong with it, but it is all wrong non the less. When I see a 996 pull up next to me it kills me, so the question is is there anyone here who feels the same way about thier 911 and wants an M3?

P O R S C H E . . . there is no substitute. :-)

went that way a few years back from a 993 to a e36 m3. Felt that I needed a lower profile car that still gave pretty good perf under 100mph and had good handling but gave me back the useable back seat and trunk. Worked out well for almost 7 years. But I missed my pcar dearly since it is a real sports car. the M3 is a nice 3 series pumped up with all the goodies, great powerband, great predictable handling, great brakes, etc. But all if great but just a bit less than the P-car. The M3 is a great car, wonderful in fact, but it is no Porsche 911. As you can see from the avatar I have a 996 now and I drive it daily and make use of that back seat for my two little kids to ride to daycare. Couldn't be happier.

I could do a commercial

I was in the same situation 5 months ago, I almost bought a 2003 M3 with 25kmiles for $36k, the dealer gave me the car for a whole day to keep as a "test drive" the M3 is an exelent car but it didnt excite me as much as the 911 does.. I ended up paying a bit more for my 996 and I couldnt be any happier

+1

Came from one, and will never go back This coming from a 5 year owner of an M3, the 996 is way above.... I've never said this about a car, but this thing is unbelievable, and I've only started my half of the mods after what the previous owner had already done...

+2

I'm a die hard bimmerphile and am even a BMWCCA Chapter President. I've had an E30 M3 and E34 M5 and people just love those cars. They were great cars, but I got my 85 cab and there is no substitute as you can't beat the Porsche. I loved it so much, I even got a 996 a couple months later. I am down to just one BMW, but have 2 Porsches.

YOu say that your dream car is a 911', what the hell are you doing in an M3?? Live your life and get that 911, you never know when you're going to go so live your dreams if you are in a situation to do so. The term "flashy" only concerns the individual who gives a **** what other people thinks so do what the hell you want as long as its righteous and you're not hurting anybody. Bottom line, get that porsche....

i'll take your M3 just so i can race against civics....... can't do it with the Porsche though..... no Class......

I am thinking about trading my 996 in for an M3.........or maybe NOT!!! Have to say thought that the new series...with the twin turbo...are looking mighty fine....love Bimmers....got an X5 for my wife....and drive if regularly. But there is something about the 996...can't put my finger on it...but I can park my *** in it and take corners like there is no tomorrow!!!

My brother has a 330 coupe. Damn fine car as is the new version. If I were going on an Interstate trip, I would prefer his car over mine. Otherwise, mine is a sports car; his is a sports sedan (well, coupe). They both do what they do extremely well. I would rather have the sports car. I will say that I have had considerably more trouble with my car than he has had with his. All covered under warranty, but still . . . .

No thank you. Already made the decision to pay more and get the better handling/faster car. You will probably have better luck on Bimmer forums.

I resemble that remark!

I too made the mistake of buying cars that were not 911s. I first had a E36 M3, Audi A4, Audi TT and finally a BMW X5. Got rid of all of the except the X5 (its my daily driver), and finally got a 911. It was what I wanted the entire time, but did not get it because it was too flashy, too exotic, etc. I finally purchased a '99 Artic over black about 2 months ago and have had a grin on my face ever since. Go out and get you dream car or you will just keep on trading in the cars that aren't Porsches. Good luck.

Get both!

+1 As many times as I've thought about unloading both the M3 and 996 in favor of a GT3...I can't force myself to do so yet....they're both soo good in their own respective ways.

Its just not a 911. It doesn't have anything wrong with it, but it is all wrong non the less. When I see a 996 pull up next to me it kills me, The search for the "perfect car" is a never ending quest. The quest may go something like this. You tradeup from a BMW, Audi, etc to maybe a 996. You are completely happy for a few months and then you decide that mods are essential for you to enjoy your 996 to its fullest. After sinking several thousand into mods, you decide it's time to buy a new 997. After owning the 997 for awhile, the 997 TT looks very alluring, etc. etc.

x3 I have both 996 and m coupe and are great to switch during the week! ______________ 01 996 aero 00 M coupe 04 Z4 89 civic

i'd rather have an E46 M3 than a 996 carrera. i'd rather have a 997S than an E46 m3. E46 M3 is one bad **** looking muthfuqa

I thought about a E46 M3 instead of a 996C2 because the E46 was cheaper and looks soooo good, but in the end a Porsche is a Porsche. Couldn't be happier sporting my 99C2 at AX/DE. You only live once so get the real deal.

I was just about to get a 2002 M3, but instead opted for the 996C2 and no regrets. M3 is an awesome car, but it just didn't "do it" for me. Now, my old M Coupe vs. the 996? I am still debating that one (I need the rear seats..). Previously, 328is coupe and loved it too. The LM rims on the M3 posted above look amazing.

Good dilemma to have - you're talking about two great cars. Can you share more info about current mileage, asking price, and a couple pics? I have a guy in my office who may be interested. He is 27, making pretty good money and needs a new car. He doesn't want to get a Porsche but gets super excited about Bimmers.

why don't you "demo" him your 996?

The M3 is slow but good luck. Come to the fold, just own both.

"Does anyone want an M3?" No, I don't!

I had 2 E46 M3s...03 Carbon Black and a 05 Competion Package. M3s are fast cars especially after 100 mph they just keep goin. But after drivin my 996 there is something about the 996 the way it hugs the road. The M3 had a lot of body roll in corners where as the 996 is none. As far a quickness i raced my buddy with my 05 and his 03 C4S and it was a dead even from straight line point of view. Now when i was tryin to keep up with him in corners was another story ...just my 2 cents

I have both-they might be sports cars but they are completely different--If you had to choose its the 911 hands down--theres no argument now if you were only to have 1 for your daily driver that makes things harder. But having 2+ cars theres NO SUBTITUTE -- I went for a 20 min ride yest after a week of sitting in garage-- its awesome-I liken it to surfing it just clears your mind and buts you in touch with something else Mike

I was kinda thinking that 333HP and 0.91g road holding is not slow.

slow? yes, the 996 carreras are slow lol the '99-'01 aero kitted 911s are one of my favs and that yellow one is a great example. with that said, the E46 M3 ultimately looks much more aggressive in my eyes because it is a lot wider and looks hunkered down and generally looks newer than the 996 carrera. LEDs, bi-xenon projector headlights, flared out fenders, factory M aero... perfect. interior is superior as well. even with full leather, the 996 interior is plasticky and not nearly as good as the M. where the 996 aero really kicks M3 booty is in the steering, suspension and sound dept. now i was able to negate the suspension with a set of quality coilovers, but i just can't touch the steering and sound. the 996 n/a 3.4-6 engine sounds like a jet from the rear whereas the M3 is a raw smooth inline 6. i prefer the 911 sound. and then there's the question of reliability. i'm not fond of the RMS issues and like the solid dependable feeling u get wringing out the S54. i'm also not too fond of the idea that you're getting the lowest grade 911 engine - if 911, i just decided i want the race bred Gt1 series engine found in the Turbos and found 100% in the GT3. that's my take on this whole thing - i'm still tempted by thoughts of an aerokitted 911, but going to skip over the 996 gen and go for teh 997+... m3 is a stop gap measure

Aren't those E46 M3s have mechanical problems all the time?

the early '01s and some 02s i think had this rod bearing recall (BMW stepped up and extended warranty coverage on the engine - RMS porsche????). very few engines actually blew up in the first place. this is the only bad mark. the E46 M3 is a reliable car. i have an '04. no issues whatsoever.

No not slow, but not as fast as a 996. The E46 M3 is major league heavy and in stock trim understeers like crazy. It's a great car on it's own. But driven back to back with a 996, it's 3 series roots shine through.

sorry man, the e46 m3 is every bit as fast if not faster than the 996 carrera it's hair splitting to say it's "slower" in any way shape or form and to suggest making a decision one over the other......... straight up misinformed. audion19s can surely lend some of his wisdom here

Faster than a 996 LOL!! That's a good one! Take your dreams to the M3 board. At least there you can preach to your "Choir"!!

No need to turn this into another 10 page argument over which car is better. They're both outstanding cars in their own right. I'm sure many many people here looked at the M3 and 996 at the same time. Each will make their own decision based upon personal needs / wants and for them it will be the better car and why not stand behind the car you chose as the better of the two marks. I drove both when I bought the M3...I needed practicality so the M3 came first...I'm also fortunate enough to now be able to own the 996 that I've always wanted as well. For me there's no clear winner between the two when you look at the entire picture....it's going to be based upon your needs. In my experience from racing my car vs. my car the M3 wins in the straight line (my car is a 3.4 though so you 3.6ers take that however you will). There's soo little in it anyhow (2 cars to 100mph) that you're really splitting hairs when comparing the two. On the track is where the 996 shines. Brake feel, steering feel etc when comparing the two the 996 is much more at home on the track and the M3's weight issues really start to show on track. That said my M3 is heavily modified currently and still turns faster laps but there's alot of room for improvement in the nearly stock 996. Suspension goodies and other track mods are planned for the 996 this year and I intend it to make the M3 look silly at the track next season. I will continue to track both though just for the fun of it. Andy

thx audi, now that's some good feedback. and ray it's cool of you admit you're up on stage hollering at your own boxster, red headed 911 step child 996 carrera audience for whatever that's worth since u are posting on rennlist. cuz y'all are dreaming of thoughts of a legit 911 engine (cough GT1 cough)

I have read your post a few times and I must admit that I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say. As is posted before the M3 is one hell of a sedan, but it's no sports car. It's way too heavy and in stock form it understeers like crazy (IMHO of course). It is simply outclassed by the 996. Perhaps you should re-read the first post in this thread. Or even better re-read one of your own earlier posts on this very subject (from another thread). or this post BTW, perhaps you didn't see my sig, I own both a 986 and a 996... Now who hid the troll spray, I think this threads been infected.....

Well said! My $0.02 is this: These cars are in different classes. The M3 has 4 seats and a real trunk. I don't know of too many cars that can compete with BMW in this class, so it is my #1. The 996 is basically a 2 seater with limited cargo space. So it is my #1 in this class. The question should not be about which is better. The question should be about who need the extra seating and trunk.

Comments from Benjamen from http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=403456&page=2 when comparing an E46 M3 to a C4S. So, take him w/ a grain-of-salt.

Too many comparisons of 996 to E46 M3. Why not search so we don't repeat ourselves? You should buy what you want. If practicality is important, M3 is an excellent choice. If you need a real sports car, you know what is better. $35k is not a great price for a modded M3 since modification usually doesn't add even 1/2 the price paid. Car should be worth $30-32k at most even in CA where I live.

too funny, love it how y'all surround your sandbox to defend the e46 m3 and the 996 carrera are in the same performance class. you see a dude in an m3 at the track or the canyons or whatever... you best not think you're going to run away from the guy because the E46 m3 "understeers like crazy" . given equal drivers, no one is running away from no one else. and what have i said that's so outlandish to be called a "troll?" i know and appreciate 996 911s enough to understand its strenghts and weaknesses. the m3 is a gt coupe and the 911 is a sports car (though technically the 911 is a gt coupe as well). both share very similar performance numbers, but go about achieving these things in different ways just as audion19s has so fairly explained. the e46 m3 is in no way slow and if it is slow, then most if not all things of course being relative in life, so the 996 carrera is a slow car. m3 outclassed? LOL you wish. if anything, the e46 m3 outclasses the 911 carrera so many times over as evident in the major press mags including the reputable evo. check the engine of the year. check everything what serious car people have said including those on forums. outclassed by a $30-$38K 911? WHAHAHAHA this thread has become yet another example that the loudest p-car owners are those who have their d!cks tied to their car's rear engined hump with a huge chip on their shoulder and understandably so... the 996 carrera is again the ugly step child in the family. c'mon fellas, there's always bigger, faster, better. 911 carrera i will say again in aerokitted form like audion19s guards red is one of my favs, but having driven both quite a bit, i picked the M3 and am looking forward to getting into a serious 911 (Gt1 styles baby). both the m3 and the 996 carrera are great cars in the same performance class. that's my point and i'm sticking to it.

From InternetAutoGuide.com - '02 M3 specs: 3409 lbs/333 hp/cd 0.32 10.2lbs/hp '02 996 C2 specs: 2904lbs/320hp/cd 0.30 9.1lbs/hp Sorry Ben, but you're on crack with your assertion that the e46 is as fast or faster than the same model year 996. Are physics suspended in the world you live in? If so, I This hard data is also backed up by my real world track experience. The E46 is no match for even my lowly 3.4l 996 and it definitely doesn't have a GT1 derived motor so it obviously is a piece of crap, which isn't saying much for the M3. Also, street driving comparisons are mostly useless, since you can't drive at even 7/10 for any meaningful period of time. I'm afraid even pixie dust won't overcome a 500lb deficit. Time to bust out the Merry Xmas to my fellow sandbox circlers.

This thread is worthless.

Ok look. 2 cars a e46 M3 and a 996 3.6 Carrera. 2 equal drivers. Who wins a race from a straightline 0 - 60. Haha

M3 wins, it's quicker, but you're right, the 996 cost more to buy and maintain

Any more M3 fanboi's care to chime in on this thread??

I'm not flaming on them, I love M3's - but it's like the same people who compare Vettes to Porsches. They may be as fast or faster, but they are Corvettes. Same with a BMW --THEY ARE NOT PORSCHES. I mean, you don't see me comparing 911 Turbo's to Ferrari F430's do you? Just because the P is faster, it ain't no Ferrari. Same is tru w/ the Bimmer. An E46 M3 may be as quick as the 996, but it ain't no Porsche. (For you educated folks, ain't = is not)

Like i said when i had my e46 m3 i went up against my friends C4S and they were a lock. Actually dead even through 130 mph. But now that was a C4S and a cab. Maybe a coupe may be quicker. My 03 C2 Cab feels quicker and a little stronger through gears too me. But very close cars. And again neck and neck but hadling is hands down 996 C2 or C4 ....having both cars i would take a 996 any day

C2 is faster than C4S 0 to 60. Apparently, C4S is faster on a track.

I am going to take back my thread now. This wasn't a question of 0-60, plastic to dash ratio or "if a 996 was on a train heading north at 80 MPH and an M3 was heading west...." questions. It was to drive home what I already knew; the intangible aspect of a 911 is hard to overcome. I thought that I made a pretty good compromise buying the M3, but it was a compromise. What I gave up to be able to drive my car and visit a jobsite without 100 questions wasn't worth the down side of the equation for me and I regret it. The M3 is a great car that doesn't carry the same financial stigma that many equate to a 911, but it wasn't the car for me. It is for sale now and will be replaced by a 996 and a beater. Great problems to have.

I went from an '04 E46 M3 to my 40th Anniversary 911 with the 345 HP X51 motor. The M is/was a great car, fairly quick, easy to just get in and go fast right away, and very versatile...but it's a heavy pig with overboosted steering, wallows in corners and is in general just a bit "insulated" for my taste. The steering feel and handling of my 911 are in another league altogether. Anyone who says the M3 is fast is correct; but anyone who says the M3 is as fast/faster than a 3.6 996 is deluded. It's really not even close; as another poster said, 500 extra pounds cannot be ignored.

my point is it IS close. the two are in the same performance class when you put the numbers togehter and more importantly than numbers when you actually get out on a track or even a canyon one is not pulling away from the other. yes i agree, the steering and suspension and the sound of the 911 is great, but guess what... the E46 m3 is solid as well, but just goes about doing it differently in a more GT coupe sort of way. sure the 911 is a great car... the Gt3, the gt2, the turbo... the 911 carrera...???? 997S makes it finally a cut above with that 3.8, but the 996 carrera is not which is the model line we're talking about here. and fellas, there's no way in hell a 996 carrera is 2,900 lbs. that's honda s2000 weight or carrera weight dry. it's more like 3,100 wet. at ease, soldiers. we're just talking cars, not about your wives.

I'm lucky enough to own an 01 M3 & 99 911. As all have said, fantastic cars..but different beasts all together. If I could only have one, the M3 would stay. More practical, and in today's world, subtleness has its advantages. But I don't see where the M3 can keep up with the 996 (in straight line or twisties) if it even matters. The 996 is so much more nimble and if you let it rev, it "feels" so much faster (I haven't timed either one). I would really be surprised if an M3 can run with the 996. I like the old adage, the M3 is a street car you can run on the race track, and the 911 is a race car you can run on the street - or something like that.

I'd definitely take an M3 if I could have this setup: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=407624 Shawn

More spin. Your point a few post ago was that the M3 was perhaps faster than the 996. You also made the statement that you'd rather have the M3. However, in earlier posts you said the 996 was faster and you posted "Carrera > M3." Are you confused, because you sure seem to be??? The 996 is lighter and has a better power to weight ratio. The 996 has sharper handling, better braking, better aerodynamics and a much higher top speed. The 996 will turn a faster lap around a road course (i.e. it will pull away from an M3). Yes, the M3 is one hell of a sports sedan. It is very fast (faster than many actual sports cars). However, when I drove it I found that it was heavy, understeers much more than I liked, and generally lacked a sharp feel. The again it is certainly cheaper and more practical than a Carrera. What car do you currently drive Ben? Do you even own, or are you looking to purchase either model?

i will level with you ray since you seem like an enthusiast though maybe a tad bit sensitive if a friendly "interloper" like me perhaps comes in here to ruffle some feathers. but hey i like the attn i drive an '04 m3, i have a '99 jeep cherokee for a beater, and a used 997 (3.8) being seriously considered while prices are winterized if that is a word. i picked up the M back in spring of '06. at that time, i was looking for an 2000-2001 aerokitted 911. i drove both cars and picked the M3. i had more seat time in the 911 in both the 3.4 and 3.6 versions. i simply loved the way the '99-'01 aerokitted cars look. now that i've been running the bimmer for a while now, i will say the M3 with a decent set of street coilovers (I run TC Klines) sticks and feels nearly as good as the 911 on a set of pss9s (RE050A PP tires). sound wise, the rasp has grown on me because it's coupled with a larini exhaust (uk make). just as the 911 has the trademark jet engine sound, the M3 has this raw motorsport sound that you either love or hate. power wise, the M3 feels quicker than the 3.4, and runs about as quick as the 3.6. steering the 911 still takes it. suspension... about equal (i never run stock suspension as i always lower my cars on upsized wheels). formerly, i had a supercharged s2000 lowered on 18" Fikse FM10s so both feel the euros feel inspired by grilled bratwurst to me. the understeering can be dialed out with camber adjustments up front to which you can only do if you get camber plates which i did. it greatly enhances the feel to which you felt lacking and i did as well. as for pricing, they're in the same ball park in the used car market. the 996 (both carrera and the GT1 series cars) for the betterment of the interested market has taken a beating. the M3 never really gets hit too badly because it is the top of the line. heck, i could pick up a nice low mileage aerokitted '01 for high 30s right now. now i've managed some seat time over the months in a 3.8 S and a 996 Turbo. the 3.8 does everything a bit better than the M3 stock to make it worth the extra $20Gs+. the 996 Turbo is f-qin quick, but you feel more detached than the 997S. i've come to learn, Ray, that when cars are priced at $50K-100K let's say... there's always some sort of tradeoff. it's never a clear win. now from the pure performance aspect, i will stick to my guns again and say that the M3 and the 911 carrera (996) is in the same league. not one is outgunning the other to make it anything more than hairsplitting. and since i dont' practice listing my cars in my sig for all th eworld to know pretty much might mean i dont' want the world to know, but since you asked and for the sake of this conversation there u go. i've opened up a bit. hehe i'm in my late 20s and just got started with my love for cars maybe 6 years ago so i'm sure you've got a lot more experience driving cars and learning about them. for me, i keep a very open mind and have come to accept that these things are toys and there are all kinds of toys that are fun to play with. i love SUVs on 24" wheels, i love big body sedans like a 7 series on 22s with the full ac schnitzer kit... i love my bulldog stance M3 with its OZ superleggera IIIs. heck, i might love my jeep cherokee the most for its legendary inline 6 and tranny and diff! i love 911s as well... even from the lowly 996 carrera (I'd still sport one) on up to the crazy lovely 997 GT3. i love them all. and can appreciate each for what they do. and again, very rarey do cars absolutely annihilate each other where one is a CLEAR and present win over the other unless you're spending a good chunk of change to "upgrade"

Those lowly carrera's costs more than the M3 coming out of production, so that makes the m3 lower than 'lowly cost'. The M3 is not even considered as a real sports car, so why bother to compare apples and oranges.

Ah, Porsche owners continually need to find justification for paying so much for their cars. They are great cars, but there is a reason that Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world. It is because they charge so much for their cars and there are enough people willing to pay the inflated prices.

As stated before, I've owned an M3 for several years and they will ALWAYS be a regular 3 series with upgraded components, nothing more. Porsche has a premium and for a very good reason. To be honest this thread isn't going anywhere

Idiotic statement---v There is a reason why Porsche is so profitable. They are the best cars made. It's the same reason why any business is more profitable when it has a superiour product. Supply and demand, my simple-minded friend. My justification? Every time I get in and start the engine! Design defects The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100 1 Porsche 35 2 Hyundai 41 3 GMC 43 4 Jaguar 44 5 Lexus 45 6 Nissan 45 7 Honda 46 8 Toyota 47 9 Chevrolet 49 10 Lincoln 50 11 Ford 50 12 Acura 51 13 Dodge 51 14 Mitsubishi 51 15 Infiniti 52 16 Industry Average 52 17 Saturn 54 18 Pontiac 55 19 Mercury 56 20 Jeep 56 21 Cadillac 57 22 Kia 58 23 Chrysler 59 24 Volvo 61 25 Audi 62 26 Scion 62 27 Saab 63 28 Mazda 64 29 Suzuki 66 30 Buick 68 31 Mercedes 68 32 Subaru 69 33 Isuzu 70 34 VW 73 35 Mini 77 36 Hummer 80 37 BMW 82 38 Land Rover 89 Manufacturing defects The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100 1 Lexus 42 2 Porsche 49 3 Toyota 52 4 BMW 52 5 Hyundai 53 6 Chrysler 53 7 Cadillac 54 8 Buick 55 9 Honda 57 10 Infiniti 57 11 Jaguar 59 12 Audi 60 13 Acura 63 14 Lincoln 63 15 Industry Average 64 16 Volvo 64 17 Mercury 65 18 Mercedes 65 19 Mini 65 20 Subaru 67 21 Chevrolet 69 22 Ford 69 23 GMC 70 24 Nissan 70 25 Saturn 70 26 Pontiac 70 27 Scion 71 28 Dodge 72 29 Kia 72 30 Mitsubishi 78 31 Mazda 79 32 Hummer 79 33 Jeep 87 34 VW 87 35 Saab 91 36 Suzuki 93 37 Land Rover 106 38 Isuzu 110 2006 Nameplate rankings Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100 1 Porsche 91 2 Lexus 93 3 Hyundai 102 4 Toyota 106 5 Jaguar 109 6 Honda 110 7 Cadillac 117 8 Infiniti 117 9 GMC 119 10 Acura 120 11 Chrysler 120 12 Lincoln 121 13 Nissan 121 14 Chevrolet 124 15 Industry Average 124 16 Ford 127 17 Mercury 129 18 Saturn 129 19 Audi 130 20 Dodge 132 21 Pontiac 133 22 Volvo 133 23 Buick 134 24 Mitsubishi 135 25 Kia 136 26 Mercedes 139 27 Scion 140 28 BMW 142 29 Subaru 146 30 Mazda 150 31 Mini 150 32 Jeep 153 33 Saab 163 34 Suzuki 169 35 Hummer 171 36 VW 171 37 Isuzu 191 38 Land Rover 204 There are some very interesting differences here, especially with BMW depending on which ranking you view. IMO, this is how the report should have been laid out to begin with. Mercedes (one point below average) and BMW got killed not because of actual mechanical defects, but for "Design defects" which goes to nav systems and what not. I don't know how many buyers are qualified to make such a determination probably just because they understand how something works, that said MB/BMW could stand to simplify their cars, especially the electronics. http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cf225

I just noticed this thread and I've only read the past 1 1/2 pages, so forgive me if I repeat what another might have written. As my user name suggests, I am an M3 lover. I sold it for a GT3 a few months back. I loved my M3, but wanted a more focused car. The M3 does everything well and given it's performance, build quality, hand built engine, useable trunk and backseat, it's hard to beat what I call a VALUE buy. I know it's hard to justify a car like that as a value, but considering what you get, it's pretty hard to argue that it is not. I looked at 996's and 997's, but didn't see the performance being too dramatically different from the M3 to justify the price difference or the loss of utility you get with a real trunk and backseat and the performance. Is the 996 faster, yes, but it really depends on the driver. I've passed GT3's, Ferrari 360's, Corvettes on track, but I would never say the M3 is faster, it's really down to the drivers. Going to the 996 GT3, the car is obviously more raw than a standard 996 or 997, and there is no utility, coupled with a higher price, you must be saying that I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. However, the price premium I paid to upgrade from the M3 to the GT3 was worth the experience to drive a truly world class car -- a slepper exotic if you will. Do you pay a premium for the Porsche name? Yes. Is it worth it. It is if you can afford it and want it. A P-car is a want, not need. Is it worth it to pay big $$ to get a few horsepower more in an aftermarket upgrade? Is it worth it to get bling bling wheels that cost $5k? Not to me, but it is to someone. There is an exclusivity to the Porsche name and I've noticed they do get more attention than the BMW, as a Ferrari would get more attention than a Porsche. Would I go back to BMW and another M3. You bet. When that new V8 comes out, I'm all over it, but I doubt it's going to see as much track time as the E-46 did. The M3's are becoming more heavy with each generation and going toward the AMG softness vs. the E-30 M3 rawness.

I know.....its part of living. Live and let live, buy whatever you want, who reeally gives a **** but you since you're going to be the one driving it.

Had 2002 M3. Now own 2002 C4S. Driving thrills: draw. Practicality: BMW. Exclusivity: Porsche by a landslide. The M3 looks too much like the ubiquitous 3 series. The 911 looks like nothing else on the road.

I don't hold too much stock in J.D. Power, since they recently bumped up Pontiac above Toyota in initial build quality. Granted, there are certainly some "design issues" with the complexity of the BMW electronics, but not any crazier that the ventilation controls on my 3.2 Carrera.

I hear ya. My only point was, it's a stupid point to make, that Porsches somehow cost too much and prices are inflated for any other reason, other than their prices are commensurate with quality/beauty/performance/heritage etc... I'm probably being a noob by even dragging out this thread, but I shall continue... Saying that we, P owners, have to justify the price by bragging or whatever is an insult. On the contrary, if you have't noticed, most of the respectful contributers of this board are opting out of this thread. Why? Cause they DO NOT have to justify themselves and their cars to anyone. Which nullifies that guys point completely!! I digress - Go over to the M3 board, or the Subaru boards, or ricer boards for people that brag about how fast their cars are, or how they are better than Porsches for this reason, or that reason. How many kills they have wracked up this week. --- Generally speaking, we don't do that here. That's one reason that I love this board, and I LOVE being a P owner!!

there's a reason why i like this board. there are sane people in it without their heads in the clouds and so much of their d!cks tied to their autos to bring about some sense of worth beyond metal parts and glued plastic pieces... sometimes. hehe i love some of the 911s. not all. to me a 911 is the GT3, the GT2, the Turbo. the carrera is still an excellent car and i'm still a big fan of an aerokitted one like that speed yellow example, but alas, on the lower rungs of 911dom, there are others who do it just as well and in other depts better so the whole 911 carrera is leagues better than the E46 M3 is grasping at the straws. they're close enough to each other that you can have fun, totally inane arguments like the one in this thread that i've helped turn it into for which i don't apologize. as for justfying, nullifying wtf? we're just chatting cars and leave it at that. once you get pride and all that other bs tied with an automobile it turns to babel.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

[QUOTE=Benjamin Choi]my point is it IS close. the two are in the same performance class when you put the numbers togehter and more importantly than numbers when you actually get out on a track or even a canyon one is not pulling away from the other. yes i agree, the steering and suspension and the sound of the 911 is great, but guess what... the E46 m3 is solid as well, but just goes about doing it differently in a more GT coupe sort of way. sure the 911 is a great car... the Gt3, the gt2, the turbo... the 911 carrera...???? 997S makes it finally a cut above with that 3.8, but the 996 carrera is not which is the model line we're talking about here. and fellas, there's no way in hell a 996 carrera is 2,900 lbs. that's honda s2000 weight or carrera weight dry. it's more like 3,100 wet. And I'm telling you - based on direct, recent, personal experience - that it's NOT close. Unless you've driven the two cars back to back - like I have - your opinion is not based on fact, just speculation. My car is 3,000 pounds, vs 3,500 for the M3 copue.

my 996 is 3000 lbs wet WITH a full bolt on cage (~100lbs), race seats, spare tire/tools and 3/4 tank of gas and SC/intercooler/thirdradiator/boost cooler/fluids, etc.... it's more like 2800 when i take out all the mods and 1/4 tank. and yes, that was confirmed when i corner weighted my car. (ya i know, i should've taken the spare out but the tech forgot) you might want to take your own advice and chill

I have a 330 coupe and a 911 C4. Again like people say, I like the bimma when I need to get the shopping or 4 people in the car, the rest of the time I take the Porsche. The Bimma has more comfort and more interior refinement and is good on long journeys. That said I would probably take the porsche on a long journey anyway because it is far more fun to drive. I also have an auto box in the bimma which makes it good for driving around town. So I think they have different purposes and this thread is silly. If I had to chose one in would be the porsche that would stay.

Benjamin, you are funny. You've come here serveral times asking about purchasing a 911. You never have..............as far as I know. You can't compare the two, because you've never owned one. My good freind just traded his m3 for a gallardo and guess what, my car was faster in every area, even a straight line. It was part of the reason he went ***** out for the Lambo. Now he is faster, but I'm working on that................... Why come to a Porcshe board and claim another car is better, you know you're going to get conflict. It's all good, nobody really cares. However, the M3 is a slower car, period.

it's not slower handle candor read my post again thru non-porsche warped glasses as i recognize the p-car as the better driver. ain't nobody looking at a 996 carrera and saying it's an M3 beater because... it's not. same performance class kinda like comparing a fuji apple to a braeburn hehe

Ben, it's sad that you are so conflicted about your car choice that you see the need to troll. The M3 is a great car, really it is! It offers almost as much performance in a more practical package at a much lower price. However, the steering feel, weight, and chassis all conspire to make it feel like what it is, a sports sedan. Trying to argue that a car is equal, because it's performance stats (0-60, 1/4 mile, Ring times, etc.) are close is like trying to argue that a steak at the Sizzler is "just as good" as a steak at Morton's because it has as many calories. I hope your case of cognitive dissonance eases in the new year. Love the one you're with!

I am lucky enough to own both an 05 M3 Cab and and 02 911 Targa (as well as a pristine 90 E30 M3). Bought the 911 about two months ago as a replacement of my 01 M Roadster which also has the S54 motor. I'll list some thoughts: -The 911 definitely FEELS faster. I do know the cab weighs more than the M3 Coupe . -The S54 motor needs to be revved up high before the car really moves. The 911 has torque at every rpm and pulls hard instantly. - The M3's ride, even on 19's is much better. -The 911 feels more like a true sports car in size, steering and acceleration. -My opinion differs from a couple other posters as I think my M3 looks "boring" when parked next to the 911 which has the aero mods. I dont have that feeling when its (911) parked next to my E30 M3. -The 911 feels about as fast as my previous M Roadster but handles soooo much better. Especially when comparing high speed stability. - My M3 hasnt moved much since I bought the 911 and that says a lot!!!!! Frank 02 Porsche 911 Targa (Seal Gray) 05 M3 Cab (imola red, red interior) 90 M3 (sterling silver) Keeper 05 BMW K1200S 95 Ducati 900SS SP Keeper

This is interesting, since I rode in an 02 M3 and thought the ride was harsh. Perhaps there was something wrong with the setup on the car I drove? Your experience will lead me to test drive a different M3 if I have the chance in the future. That was the one and only thing I didn't like about the M3. I think these BMWs are really very great cars compared to just about anything that's out there. But I agree with you and I rank Porsche slightly ahead of the BMW in terms of what I'd rather own and drive if I could only choose 1 car.

I am an avid autocrosser and newby at the track. I have had the chance to autocross many a car including my own E36 323is (quite modified) and several modified and stock E46's on the autocross course. With that said, the E46 vs the 996 is a very different comparison. The essence is really that they return a very different driving experience when driven at the limit. It has been said before that the E46 is a very heavy car and that is absolutely true. The E46 M3 I ran at the northeast divisional a few years back was very quick and built but was not nearly as neutral as my 996, plus with weight reduction was still 3500 pounds. Yes, you can manipulate the car with the skinny pedal but the car will push given the small (comparitive size) tires, and you feel the weight transition much harder than the lighter cars like the E36 or my 996 going through a slalom. The key is that the E46 is a luxo sports coupe and albeit fast and arguably more forgiving to drive quickly is exactly what it is. A luxo sports coupe which does not return the same amount of driver feedback/involvement/reward as the 996. Trust me, I love BMWs and have had a chance to drive many on autocross and several on track (ranging from the standard 3 series to E34 M5 and several different generations of the M3), but as they have have put out successive generations of the M cars, each has gotten heavier and more isolated they have been less enjoyable to drive. It is easy to get caught up in the raw power of the E46 M3 but going around the corner is still a different story. I am my BMW chapter's autocross chairman, Pete

Look, I think Ben means well, he's just Auto-Centric (did I just coin a new word)? He builds his car up because it's what he owns. We all tend to do it a bit. When I go trolling on the M3 board, I get a lot of it, but I actually get more Porsche positive feedback, because most E46 M3 owners know that the 911 is the superior car, all around. Most of them do aspire to one day own a 911, unless they already do. I like Ben and what he has to say. But some things show me that his perspective is a little off, such as: -The M3 looks more aggressive than a 911 C4S -LOL, cmon. -He thinks the M3 is will out perform the C4S, (put us on the track)! -He thinks that you add things to the body of the C4S, because the rear-end doesn't look right. (I guess that goes same for the Turbo's since the C4S and Turbo are physicly identicle, minues intakes). The only positive over the M3 is that the C4S has a Porsche Vibe. I mean cmon guys, put these things together and I think that we can all agree that he is blind with bias. The only way he will change is view is to someday get a 911. Then we all know he will be hangin' on the M3 board saying how M3's just don't compare.

you tricky and trying to be clever p-car snobs trying to twist my words -i've stated before in this thread that the 911 is a more fun driving experience... it makes the right sounds and has good handling and great steering feedback. and believe me, i am no fan boy of one car. heck i go on m3forum and keep those suckas in check all day and get hated for it. The M3 is not as fun to drive because it is a GT coupe. i come from a honda s2000 supercharged so believe me i know where i'm losing in the weight/fun to drive dept. -i'll state again tho that the M3 and the 996 carrera are in the same league of performance. they're equally fast, but in different ways. it'll come down to the driver as to who's going to go around a set course faster. it's splitting hairs to say that due to X feature/function of Y car, it's going to kick the other's **** around whatever timed course. not at all, 3.4 or 3.6. and let's not get into that debate either. -the M3's weight keeps getting pushed up (3,400 to 3,500) and the 996 carrera's weight pushed down (2,800 lbs???) wahahha -looks are subjective and i will say it again, the M3 looks better than a 996 carrera to me including the C4S - C4S is a great car, but it's the heaviest 911 carrera and i don't even know why the C4S came up (arrogant, your fault hehe) -I would most definitely add aeroparts to a C4S or any 996 carrera as well as upsized wheels and a lowering job on a quality set of coilovers - i did the same to the M3 except the M3 requires FAR less aero mods since the M division did a fantastic job on it from the factory how am i a troll in any way for stating my opinion and being consistent about it? how much of a car forum nerd do you have to be to call someone a troll? lol c'mon Ray, you really think that's an insult? pics for sanity

That's a really good-looking Honda!!!!

Boo whoo, I have hurt the feelings of the troll!! BTW, here's a definition for you. In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. This person often tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence about forum topics. Let's see. You don't own a 996 or even a Porsche for that matter. You aren't coming here to find advice or info about cars that you don't even own. You continue to insist there is performance parity despite info from multiple posters to the contrary. Are you done yet, or do you want to continue to fan the flames.

Ben, go buy a 996 and be done with it. You can then join our snob clan....... I know you're being light hearted, don't sweat it. It's all about love for 2007!!! Except one clause, no love on M3's............................... and the base of base 3.4 996 c2 with no options will kill the M3 in a straight, through a corner, on a track, etc. The 996 is lighter and faster and now it's triple stamped super sealed no backs, DONE> Put a smile on your face, if you haven't already. We still love you.

the base of the base 3.4 to which u drive will not in any way shape or form kill an M3 in any performance category hehe no way in hell hence no 996 carrera for me and believe me it would've been cheaper since they're depreciating like bricks, but then with all that RMS crap y'all go thru.... just giving u guys a hard time as for the troll thing ray keep at it - just imagine saying that to someone in real life ...just listen to yourself and watch, they'll just laugh at u and be like what you gonna tell on your mom now?

Ahh, Ben so glad you've decided to continue to try and troll it up. Pleeease regale us with some more stories about your awsome M3......pretty please!!

Wow such a strong statement. I don't want to sound trite but have you really driven both cars and compared (in a venue where the limits are truly shown). Where both cars strengths and weaknesses shine through. I don't believe you realize how quick the early 996's are. Especially on the track. I'm not going to bother magazine racing with you because well, it's just silly. The E46 M3 has a difficult time beating the Boxster S in autocross let alone the 996. It's really quite simple physics, the lighter 996 has a slightly better power to weight ratio (1hp/10.5lbs vs 1hp/9.79lb for the 3.4), the 996 has wider tires to distribute load and more grip. You're not being realistic in your assumptions about the M3. While it has better balance, which makes it easier to drive (to a certain point) and is a quick car, the 996 has dramatically higher corner exit speeds because it can put power down after a turn much sooner. You have to give the nod to the 996 in overall performance. 3.4 or 3.6, both cars for what I understand are underrated so quoting factory numbers is worthless. Pete

Maybe a Boxster, no way a Boxster S. Porsche remains supreme!!!!! A more accurate comparison would be the 924 S. They are both front engine, water cooled, and ugly. except one of dem's phat.

M3 will waste a Boxster S in every category except slalom. Expecially 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

Some trolls like BMW's but apparently this one doesn't.

I think both the 911 and the M3 are ill-suited for autocross action. I think had I been more into that, I'd still be driving the S2000. Actually, I quite miss the nimble handling and sharp steering of the S2000 since it is a very real 2,800lbs. The 911 never ever felt as flickable as the lightweight Honda including the lighter 1999s. But I digress... I respect both the 911 Carrera and E46 M3 equally in overall performance. They're in the same league. In terms of feel and how it tickles the sense if you so will, I give the nod certainly to the 911, but I can see where people would prefer the feel of the M3. So I don't understand why some of you take this presumptive position that I think the 911 Carrera is in any way slower or inferior to the M3 and then call me some sort of naughty internet name (troll? lol). The E46 M3 is one of the most celebrated cars to come out since 2001 so to be compared to it is actually quite flattering, no? It's just that the Carrera gets overshadowed, dominated by the 911 upper crust almost unfairly, scattered by myopia, and I know this, thus the reason why I actually was seriously looking for one half a year ago and ultimately decided to pass up on 996 Carreras to see what the future holds with the 997 gen and beyond. Bottom-line, I know and appreciate the 996 Carreras and to me it is NOT the bastard step-child. Just a little bit misunderstood, and its legacy tainted by its association with the Boxster front end and it being the first gen of the H2o. Does it deserve it? i don't think so as i still see the 996 carrera aerokitted to be one of the best looking 911s out there and this includes the VW bug style 997 headlights. And do I think that even if I currently owned a 996 carrera that when i saw a driver in an M3 on the street or track to immediately have some sort of superiority complex and think that i'm gonna smoke the dude in any way shape or form? Hell no. That M3 is a very respectable car that is going to be a handful to chase around w/ chicanes or sans. it just doesn't have the badge, the noise, and the excellent steering wheel. it does have better balance, a very nice LSD, a very solid interior, and is not slab sided.

Braking?, Skidpad?, Top Speed (keep in mind the M3 is governed)? Don't forget the new 987S has 295hp and carries even less weight than an early 996.....

Ben, it's sad that you are so conflicted about your car choice that you see the need to troll. HAHAHA guys a troll

yea so conflicted the ride of my choice is sitting pretty in my garage with $10K in suspension, tires and wheels on it right now to make the 10,000lbs M3 into being somewhat driveable at speed dipset

Don't be hating.................. sall good upinda hood. Cheers!

I'm talking about the 986 Boxster. The NEW 987 Boxster S has the Cayman engine and will waste an E46!!

and also the 996 carrera LOL (no offense to you arrogant, your C4S is tight)

Thanks man!! For the record, I have been told by Cayman S owners, they are right on par with the 996, both on AND off the track. The NEW Boxster S is right there too.

as i say ... can't hate what i don't want hehehe hey we're at least related by our BBS LMs (though mine have bigger rear dish) and you know i'm a fan of your ride as well

no way - the cayman S and new boxster S drive better than the 997s which make the 996.... outdone, outbaked etc.

Ben - if I had YOUR M3, I would keep it, drive it, and love it. If I had a base M3, I would either blow 10k in mods like you did, or just buy a Porsche.

Yea totally blackcab... it was either a low mileage C4S or 02-04 carrera or the M3 with wheels and suspension... i chose the latter as i couldn't really be happy with a stock 911. accuse me of diddy style/excessively vain, but i just can't roll with stock wheels and suspension and in this case the factory plain body on the 911. must have aerokit on it of some variety (nice kind). so the aftermarket expenditure would be $15K if not a lil more or wait for one that's exactly how i want it which is next to impossible

Stock anything is no fun. LM's are gone, I miss them but I broke them........... Switched to RSGT's last summer.

The biggest problem with 10k in mods is that I suspect none of them addressed the M3's weight. It's the same problem with 350z's. When you start with a sedan chassis as the underpinnings for a sports car or sports sedan you compromise the car. After all, BMW is building X3's off the same chassis how light can they make it. Just look at the pork that BMW piled on the E36 and the E39 to come up with the E46 and E60. At BMW's current rate of weight gain, the new M3 is going to need a V8 just so it can at least haul *** down the straights. Ben, if you take out the engine you might be able to get down to 996 weight and really kick butt around the corners. Then again, that "mod" will probably leave you a little flat on the straights. Don't leave yet Ben.....troll some more!!

i'm definitely not a fan of the weight gain, bigger engine, lower MPG deal. it's a trend that needs to stop. and funny thing is, that vaunted M engine is more than able to keep up in the corners/straights carrying the extra 4bills because you know what? The M's got an LSD ... what? you don't have one? wait, you got an oil leak or something so you're stuck in the garage yet again? wait, you're $90K car is worth $44K on a good day now? sorry

Ben, Based on the definition earlier in this thread, you are pretty much a "troll." But you also get away with it because you're pretty well spoken and entertaining, so I'm kind of hoping you don't leave us anytime soon. I just wonder how the hell you wound up here; shouldn't you be on a BMW forum showing off your nice car and flaming Porsche owners?

That's better Ben, embrace your inner troll!! So, you've raced your M3 right?? Tell us please about all the weak 996's you've passed!!

Um, isn't the S54 the biggest grenade of an engine BMW ever made? Weren't they catastrophically self-destructing for awhile there, in M Roadsters and M3s? Sorry. As a newbie, I have no place in this bunfight, but fresh from the BMW world, I had to remind you about that one. Oh, and, apparently the fastest 996 C2 'ring time is 5 seconds better than the fastest E46 M3's. Within the variability of driver skill at least, I figure... Anyway, sorry for interrupting. Carry on.

Bruce, quit trying to cloud the issue with facts. Ben was about to regale us with his track exploits against the weak 996.

Ahh... come on Ray. The real juice is in the "canyons" doncha know. Let me relate to you some tizight kill stories to prove my point. Just for the record I don't have any oil leaks and I do have an LSD.

Oh... sorry. Go ahead, Ben.

Fo shizzle.....yu da bomb!!

ahhh yes someone had to bring up the Ring times... talk about splitting hairs and reaching, grasping for some sort of numbers yet those numbers are so variable it ain't even funny so not going to go down tha tpath as for the biggest grenade... get yer facts straight. a very small percentage were impacted, made viral via the net thru knows just enough to be dangerous but in fact is harmless types who spread the word with no interest in driving at the truth at least BMW responded and provided extended factory backed warranties and a fix for the nominal number of cars who actually experienced the failure and then proceeded to dish out 40K of these engines for the M3 alone... porsche where are you with RMS? what? crickets

996 weak? really now?

I warned Bruce not to cloud your mind with "facts". Back to your track experience, let's hear about how you pull away from the 996's with your LSD...

Hmmm... you sound a little defensive. See, the thing about 'ring times is, it's a road. Not a dragstrip. More like the real world. As for the S54 grenade, there's a big difference between a leaky gasket and having Bavarian engine guts all over the road. See, Porsche kinda screwed up the design of a seal. BMW kinda screwed up the design of an oil pump and connecting rod bearings. I'm just saying is all.

I can't believe this is still going on lol

less than 1% of M3s were impacted by this and BMW still went out to make sure to cover all cars thru 03.5 with 100K warranty on any engine part that touches oil. as for porsche, if it's so damn simple, why not be accountable to your customers and find a proper fix v. evading the issue and having many thousands of threads on it on the net by its wealthy constituents? defense wins championships ahh screw it all... im gonna sell the M and join the club

I'm happy for you. You'll like 'drip drip' much better than 'kaboom'.

Actually, my 996 has LSD and STILL weighs 500 pounds less than your car...as I noted in my earlier post I have owned both cars - back to back - and my 996 is substantially quicker, straight line or twisties.

Odd, my 996 has an LSD. I do find it quite entertaining that so many BMW enthusiasts acknowledge the 996 benifits and advantages after making the switch. Here I am taking a ton on crap from my club mates. Carry on, Pete

I used to have a 2003 M3. Bought it new. (It was stolen after 10k miles). Great car, but it's no porsche. Love my 02 C4S.

Where are you getting your spec info? How the heck is a low 13s 1/4 mile car that traps under 110mph faster than another car with the same general stats? How is that in any way "substantial" other than what you're feeling on your **** dyno?

That's great and yea the M3 is a BMW M car.

You should possibly remove your head from your **** dyno. In fact, if you check around the various publicly available sources (magazines and such), you'll find that an E46M3 and a pre-'02 996 C2 are about identical in acceleration, usually within a tenth to 60 and identical in the quarter, comparing within a given data set. This means that an '02 or later C2 will probably walk away from you. Also interesting to note that the M3 cabrio gives up over a half second to the coupe because of its extra lard.

That's fo shizzle Ben! Keep trolling it up and we can get this baby to 10 pages!!! If you haven't taken the M3 to the track yet, how about sharing some sick M3 kill stories!!

Ben likes 996's, he just joshing us so we'll stop bagging on the 993 group and focus on BMW's.

Actually Ben, more than one magazine has tested the 996 in the high 12's at over 110mph for the qtr mile (stock, non X51). Do a little homework and I am sure you can locate these results. Sorry, I know how you hate the facts. Continue trolling!!

Production: 1998-2000 Engine Type: Water Cooled Flat 6 Displacement: 3387 cc 207 cu. in. Power: 296 hp @ 6800 rpm 221 kW @ 6800 rpm Torque: 258 lb. ft. @ 4600 rpm 350 Nm @ 4600 rpm Weight: 1324 kg 2919 lb (26) Tech Specs available Performance0-60 mph: ~0-100 km/h: 4.6 s Quartermile: 13.2 s Top Speed: 280 km/h 174 mph

Are each of these cars both stock?

Yes.

Nordschleife Race Track: I think it's safe to say that these 2 cars are within 1% of each other on the race track, which is to say that they are certainly comparable on paper. (497 seconds, Porsche 996 C2 vs. 502 seconds, BMW M3 E46 = 0.9900398 ~ 1%). Winner = Both. Reliability: BMW is just as reliable as Porsche, and saying that one over the other is more or less prone to engine failures is silly. Each car has had some engine problems in small numbers. In general, both cars are built to very high German standards and are very reliable. Winner = Both. Seating/Storage: It's simple, really: if you need 4 seats and a trunk, the BMW wins hands down. Porsche cannot compete in this area. Winner = BMW. Sleeper: If you want a sedan-looking, stock-looking car that is totally a sleeper, BMW is the way to go. Most people cannot tell that you are driving an extremely fast car and this could be a big benefit in certain social situations. A Porsche kind of sticks out. Winner = BMW. Styling: Both cars are beautiful, yet different. Winner = Both. Practicality: Both cars can be excellent daily drivers. Porsche still has enough storage space to go to the grocery store with a kart full of food. But since BMW has a real trunk, it wins slightly. Winner = BMW. Sports car feel: Both cars communicate well to driver inputs, steering feel, braking, handling, etc. I think that most people agree that they prefer the Porsche over the BMW in this subjective area. Winner = Porsche.

How about we all agree they are both great cars and that we are fortunate to have such a stupid thing to argue about when people are starving to death around the world.

(Pssst.... I think we're troll baiting. Otherwise this thread would have been done eight pages ago.)

I'm really cool, so I drive both.

Good idea. Over and out

Ahhh, but I'm sure Ben knows the great Ricky Bobby quote. "If you're not First, you're Last" Winner - 996!! 10 pages!! Shake and bake baby!!

Dude, my name is Corey and I think we should be friends. Will you be my friend? I know lot's of cool people and we can hang out.

It's useless to get into performance discussions about the 996 and E46 M3. Everyone knows that the BMW is a great sporty sedan and the P car is a real sports car. I do a lot of tours with friends with other cars, some own M3s (one even a CSL) but on twisty mountain roads I always drive them away (996 C2 Cab 3.4); not because I'm the better driver, but I've the better handling car. I love BMW and have already my 5th bavarian car (only 1st P car) and BMWs are in my eyes more reliable than P cars but not even thought by their producer to be sportier cars than Porsche. To add something of value to this useless discussion, I attached a video-link where a 996 GT3 RS follows an E30 M3 on the Nordschleife. Honestly, I'm amazed by the performance of the BMW. GT3 and E30 M3 on Nordschleife

Thank you for reading my mind... now if you take a look at some of the claims your compadres are making here... using words like "substantial", "outclassed" when comparing the two... it is mypoic and hairsplitting as both offer similar levels of performance where in some cases the M3 runs faster and in other cases the 996 Carrera. sound, steering, braking blah blah, they go about it in diff ways with the nod to the 911 for the sportier character. The M3 does weigh 400lbs more. and your '02 is heavier than your '99 due to the extra bracing and such thus making the straight line differences even more negligible. now would u go out and say the '02 outclasses the 3.4 engined rides? where have i seen that thread before (cough rennlist 996 forum) . here and in other cases when cars are close in performance, lap times are going to come down to driving skills and not so much predicated by the mechanical parts and this tells me that the two cars are again CLOSE. Outclassed? Hardly. Now if some of you guys making these bold claims actually owned a truly exclusive and more expensive than the M3 car such as the 996 Turbo or 996 GT3, then yea, these 911s are a step above both the 996 carrera and M3 and are RARELY if ever compared. so don't pretend your 996 carrera is more expensive or harder to get into or classier... an M3 killer cuz it's not. even if i had a 996 carrera be in an '99 lsd aerokit, an '01, or an '04 C4S, i would recognize that the M3 is in the same performance league as the stuttgart auto. I mean what am i saying here that warrants so much reaction to make it 10 pages? The reverse pyschological play practiced by Ray S to call his 996 "weak" and "slow" when I NEVER once said they were either one of those - not in the least. like audi said and like the poster i've quoted here said... they do go about doing their things differently and very well. for sporting fun the 996 carrera gets the nod because it is lighter. for a gt coupe that does things smoothly and without drama, the nod goes to the M3. neither one outclasses the other because price wise even, they're in the same range. for $45K you can get a low mileage '04-'05 M3. For $45K you can get a 20-5K miles '02 carrera, no? it's majors to majors and not majors to minors maybe i need to get an avatar of a fire engine red boxster hitting some curves thinking i got some talent to show when in fact just like any other hobbyist out there it just goes to show they ain't got the skills to make $$ off of "racing" to gain any sort of "shizzle" credibility on the internet wahaha

Then how come on the Nordschleife Race Track, these 2 cars are within 1% of each other? (497 seconds, Porsche 996 C2 vs. 502 seconds, BMW M3 E46) Is the Nordschleife not a good track for overall track-worthiness comparison?

You know what i just saw that movie and i want my rental $ back... except in the version i saw the winner was the 997

My comment was not scientific, but ad hoc I'd see two things: (1) The Nordschleife has a lot of straights where the M3 can gain time due to more power and (2) I usually experience an advantage with the 996 over the M3 when we drive on mountain roads with tight curves and switchbacks.

I'm changing my name to "M3 Killa"!!!! Cause I kill'em in da straights and I kill'em in the turns. Plus the valet always parks the bimmers in the back............................doh.

ah-man........... How do I change my name???? I'll become a paying member if somebody moves me to M3killa!!!! Who wants my money??? show me da money!!!

sorry bud but my car is way hotter than yours hehe

BAM!

i think you'd be better served to call yourself RMS killa

Can someone shut this post thread down please. Enough already. Both are great cars in different areas. I think we all know this. So thats that. This is a Porsche forum if u like BMWs so much go on M3 Forum.com and rave about it.

Ya, this thread is really gay at this point. Any P-owner who is keeping this going is making us all look bad, imo.

Hmmm. What was I thinking? ============================================= Ben, here's the most honest statement you made this whole thread. That's what a troll does Ben. He stirs things up because he "likes the attention" Here's the part you don't seem to get. If something is "almost as fast" is it always just as good? That's what you have been arguing. I would argue these cars are very different. The 996 drives like a lithe sports car. It dances around corners and offers a tremendous feel and feedback through it's controls. The M3 plows through the same corners and you feel every one of it's 3,500 pounds as it goes around the bend. Is the BMW as fast through the corner, sure it's almost there. However, the feeling and the way the two car accomplish the turn is much different. That's just one small aspect. I would argue there are hundreds of little nuances that make the 996 a more rewarding car to drive. A C5 vette is another example. The vette is a supremely capable vehicle and probably a close match to a 996 at the track. However, it feels big behind the wheel and drives entirely different. So, to use your line of thinking a Z06 C6 is just a good as a Ferrari F430 or a 997TT. After all it's just as fast! You keep eating your steak from the Sizzler. Don't bother trying to convince me that steak is just as good because it has the same number of calories. I'm perfectly happy at Mortons because there is a difference. ======================================== Wanna take it to 11 pages!! I think we can make it.

My wife would say: "I've to admit: I like the painting on the wall behind the silver 2 door Camry on the pic."

Again, never said the 996s were "slow". Check this rennlist campadres of how conveniently this 996 Carrera cheerleader Ray S misquotes your favorite M3 "troll": Yes, I said slow as relative to the comment about the M3's stats showing that it's not slow as I am quoting murphyslaw1978 which is consistent with my claim in this thread that the 911 Carrera (996) offers the same level of go as the E46 M3. And I've said again and again that they go about doing this in different ways, but it's not like we're comparing an Elise to the M3... we're both comparing 3000+lbs cars that even one with the 400lbs weight penalty still is able to gain the respect of many car lovers both amateur/hobbyist and professionals around the world. So to go about, once again, calling the M3 "outclassed" by the 996 Carrera is simply laughable except in the minds of those drinking the 911 Kool Aid because they're addicted to the sugary goodness of the reds guard powder. And if you read my posts I am well aware and have consistently recognized that Sizzlers and the Mortons offerings are different, but in this case, it's more like El Gaucho v. Mortons. Ray S, if you want me to not "troll", get yourself a GT3 and a burger to shut us M3 drivers up. Otherwise, keep posting and playing at this "troll" level.

What moron started this worthless thread?

Now that's funny!! Don't stop yet Ben, I think you can get to 12...

If you read the original post, I think it was well intentioned and complimentary to Porsches, so I wouldn't blame him. Blame our friend Benjamin for the thread that won't die. Yes, I realize I am addressing this to you, the starter. There are so many replies that I never saw if you answered one of my questions. I still might have a guy in the office who could be interested - you can PM me if you are serious about selling.

And then she said to you at least the camry guy's not compensating for anything Hey i didn't bring the wife into this convo! haha

My car has 345 HP, 274 lb ft torque - it's not a 320 HP car. And yes, it STILL weighs 500 pounds less and came with factory LSD. Get the picture?

Twelve! Twelve! Twelve! This shizzit is tizight. Yo. This thread translated by Gizoogle is pretty funny. Twistin' in the wind Ben. The backing off of previous positions held is damn funny as well. I got busy at work (so to speak) and all of a sudden - BAM 3 more pages. A couple of them are downright hilarious. Please man, don't stop.

you guys are amazing...

Actually - you should blame me for not closing it sooner - which I should have... Sorry about that - and a Happy 2007 to all! John D.