Replacement engine, take it ??

I'll fess up and say I posted this question already in another forum, in case you guys are in that forum. Anyway, my C4S is having it's second RMS replacement done. If this fails again, it's gonna be a new engine. Would you guys take the new engine? It seems to be a no-brainer. Take the new engine. Problem is, it's not a "new" engine. It's a re-manufactured one. Why was it "re-maufactured". Did it blow up? Is it Bob's old engine come back to life? Aside from the RMS, I'm actually pretty happy with this current engine. Would I be replacing a recurring RMS problem, not a biggie, with a potentially bigger one if I took the remanufactured engine?

All the motors that come from PCNA are "re-manufactured". They are in every way as good as a motor in a "new" car.

As long as it was the seal and not the actual engine out of spec then the new gen seal might solve your problem. Hope it's just the seal.

From what I recall reading in this forum, they aren't used engines, they are remanufactured engines. The terms describes the process whereby an engine was produced by Porsche, did not meet technical specs for whatever reason, taken offline, and subsequently fixed. I'll see if I can find that post that describes this process in better detail for you. UPDATE: Here's the thread link . It's post number 13....ah, what a lucky number. And I quote: "My 2.5L Boxster engine was replaced at 45k mi with a remanufactured engine. My understanding is that "remanufactured" engines are new engines that failed factory bench testing and were sent back to the line for correction. These engines are again tested and then used for warranty purposes. My replacement engine was much stronger than the original. It pulled harder. I put 16k mi on it before selling it, with not one problem and no oil usage."

Well, I think you are taking a chance. The RMS is really not that big of deal unless it was leaking very bad and is causing a clutch chattering problem. I am in manufacturing business, as with any manufacturing there are yield rates, not 100% of the products makes it through QC. Like Porsche do we also send the failed product back to the repair line and see if it can be fixed. Sometimes the original failure can be caused by more than one area and sometimes you just have to throw away the product and start all over. So the repair may not 100% cover it, on the surface it may seem to fix it, but the product often will fail at the field at a later time. The complex nature of the product is in direct relation with the complexity of possible problem. I am not sure what process Porsches uses, and maybe they can catch all the bugs. But the word remanufactured scares me, it is a crap shoot in my book. What I would do is to have your car Dynoed before the motor replacement and then a Dyno after to see if the new motor is better or worst. This way you would have evidence to go back to Porsche to ask for another engine if the replacement motor is worst. I know for a fact that there is a big variance with the power output ont he 993 motor, something to do with the CAM timing from the CAM gear setting from the factory. The variance can varie from 10-15% sometimes. So not all motors are created equal, I am sure there is a value range Porsche uses to certifies it's motor for consumption. Some ends up low, some high. So.... just my $0.02

Porsche remanufactured engines are better than the originals. They are NEW engines that did not pass the original test. So they are ripped apart, ALL PARTS REPLACED, and given a more thorough testing. If it passes then its sent out as a warranty replacement engine. For Porsche they dont wanna replace an engine twice so in their mind they are giving you a BETTER engine for one replaced under warranty. They usually are stronger and are very reliable. I have one so I am speaking from experience and the research I collected when my motor was replaced.

Palting - as far a being concerned that you might get one of Bob's old motors, I wouldn't worry. They have probably been "remanufactured" into ash trays by now!

I had oe put in and It was very strong.

Bobs old motors were completely ruined so there is NO chance you could get one of his.

If you needed a new engine I certainly wouldn't worry about it, if I'm not mistaken it should come with a new 2 year warranty?

I think the word Re-manufactured is wrong. The engines have already been manufactured, so you can't make them again. But what you can do with something that has already been manufactured is to ReWork it to the correct quality, functionality, performance, etc. specifications of a part that passed the initial manufacturing standards. These engines are new, and just needed extra work on them for them to work properly. But legally, you just can't call them new, because they are really considered '2nds'. So since Porsche does not have any factory outlet stores to sell the stuff that did not quite work right the first time, they use them as warranty replacements. Everyone does it. (especially CE and computer manufacturers) With that said, if you do opt for a replacement engine (which I think you should), make sure that you break it in just like a new car. (under 4K rpms for the first 2K miles) Because it you don't you run the risk of breaking that motor. And be sure to let it warm up properly before reving over 4K on a broken-in engine. Ask me how I know it might break.

Thanks for the replies, guys. Glad to know it's not a "used" engine. Not nice to know that it's new, but it still failed testing and had to be "remanufactured". And, AFAIK, it does come with a 2 year warranty. I do have extended warranty on the car, so that's good 'til March 2008. If the engine gets replaced, it will be at the end of this year/early next year, so any engine warranty will extend it to 2009. I kinda like this orignal engine. It's like an old shoe. Comfortable, well broken-in, reliable, no surprises. There will always be variations when it comes to hand building engines,and, except for the RMS, I feel this is one of the better put together engines. OTOH, who's to say that a new engine would'nt be just as good, except for no RMS and being new? Oh, well. Guess I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it.

I am sure the new seal will solve your problem, some of you may recall that mu 04 has had its 4th seal in for a while its fine, with the old style seal it would like after 1000 k, but this one is in and good for just under 20 K

I hope so, kilr. Last time my RMS was changed was January 2005. I think the latest generation RMS was out already by that time, and I think that's what I got. So, I'm kinda looking at this next one with a sorta jaundiced eye.

Palting Check your incoice for the part number, they told me on the 3rd RMS fix that it was the new one.......it wasnt it leaked 800 miles later.Then they installed the new one.

The terms rebuilt and remanufactured are terms of art. I take it as internet BS or from someone who went on a factory tour, the claim that rebuilt/remanufactured engine did not come out of a car as a used engine. Maybe 9 years ago when there were no core engines to be sent back to be rebuilt? That is why Porsche charges X for an engine and more than X if you do not have a rebuildable core. Your core, if it is rebuildable, is then send back to Germany for what purpose? When I started out 7 years ago on the internet it was said that cores were sent back to Germany so the engineers could figure out why the motor failed, and improve the breed. I hope Porsche has it figure out by now. I think that old story is just that. The failed engines are now needed to feed the supply chain of engines that are not new and have been in service. I am not up on Bob's engines. But if he had a rebuildable core it might just be in your car as a rebuilt/remanufactured engine.

just fyi, the core of bob's 2nd blowed engine was returned to PCNA.

When you guys refer to "core" are you referring to the "block." Unless the engine blew apart, I'd see no problem reusing the old block. I would expect all new moving parts in a rebuilt engine: pistons, valves, camshafts, etc.

I am not sure if this assumption is entirely correct. I am sure that crankshaft would be re used, or ground to bring it back into spec, as well as the rods and cams. It would be real interesting to hear why these engines fail. If it is as simple as something as a blown head gasket, alot of the original motor could be re-used.

Shy of a cylinder sleeve cracking or the engine blowing apart, why would anyone need another motor just to fix a leaky RMS? Since you know and trust your current engine, just get a new RMS (from what I hear, they are actually on a 4th generation fix already) and make sure that it's "placed 5mm farther into crankcase, uses a new intermediate shaft cap/crankshaft sealing ring with double bond, four new sealant-coated crankcase bolts, and three new intermediate shaft flange bolts." For the record, that's what I read somewhere on the net (maybe over at Renntech). Good luck!

I asked the dealer where I live, no engines have ever been replaced here only seals (if I understood correctly, quite a number of times on a few cars). If it was my car I would opt for replacement RMS rather than new engine, what's the guarantee the "new" one won't fail as well.

Because the real problem has always been with the engine and not the seal. Its only taken PAG 7 years to (finally? hopefully? maybe?) engineer a seal that would overcome these "design" problems...

ouch! that's cold what you said about bob's hey bob where are you hope the engine works out for ya this has got to be draining

Here's a flip side. Whatever a re-manufactured engine is, it will replace an engine that will probably have 45K+ miles on it by that time. It will be new, better than an overhauled engine. No? Yes?

What is the cost for a "remanufactured 3.6 engine"? I imagine they want your core returned....

Pricing for remanufactured longblocks from Porsche (prices are in US dollars and do not include core charges -- I don't know those figures). 986 - $6963.57 996 - $7951.74 997 - $8561.44 993 - $18196.14 996TT - $20741.10 (short block) <=- Longblock will cost a bunch more. GT3 - $26531.50 CGT - $79872.79 For the 993/964 engines the prices have more than doubled since 2003 (was $7800USD).

I work in manufacturing and have experience using the same production system that Porsche uses (TPS). Reworked - A new engine that needs to go to a special rework area to correct defects made the first time through the mfg process. Remanufactured - A used engine that goes through a remanufacturing process that uses partially new components and partially old components. These are conjectures on my part but will most likely be what Porsche is doing: 1) Regarding warranty replacement engines being reworked engines: They might have a specific policy that states that engines that need to be reworked because they didn't get past the quality test the first time do not go into new cars. However, once a motor is reworked, and then "meets the spec" there is no engineering/quality reason for it not going into new cars. 2) It is unlikely that there are enough reworked engines in order to meet replacement demand for blown engines. This is where the remanufactured engine supply chain comes in. Remfg is about cost recovery and can save Porsche millions of $ in reusing parts rather than having to pay for new raw material and labour for a new engine. 3) Remanufactured engines - Blown engines where the core is still usable are sent to the remanufacturing facility, which is probably not even in the same engine production facility as the original engine. If Porsche was smart they'd be remanufactured in the US rather than sending them back to Germany. (no point paying shipping charges across the ocean twice, sorting engines for different country specs and paying high German labour wages). The engines will go into a check-in area where they are torn down to determine the root cause of the failure and stuff like how many engine-hrs are logged in the engine. This data goes to their quality department to improve the product and will also determine if the engine can be remanufactured or will be scrapped. 4) Remanufactured engines go through a standardized process dictating what parts need to be replaced with new parts (probably pistons, rings, seals, cams etc) and parts that do not wear and can be reused. The engines then run through a series of quality tests to ensure they meet the spec and then are resold as remanufactured engines, with a warranty. The math is the fun part because usually : Replacement Demand > Rework engines + Remanufactured engines. Therefore, a % of people who need a replacement engine will get a brand new engine, when they run out of remfg engines Not sure who you'll have to suck up to, but that means that it is technically feasible to get a brand new engine as a warranty replacement. As the previous poster mentioned, the reason that 'obsolete' engines like 964 and 993 engines have started to creep up in price is because once the production process for new 993 engines has ceased, they need to be manufactured in smaller batches only to meet replacement demand. Smaller batch size mfg has higher set-up cost per unit (eg. changing tools and dies in machinery that might be making 997 engine parts back to 993 parts).

jury_ca - Your view seems very plausible to me and it could account for the mixed results I've seen with replaced engines. I almost bought an '02 996 vert with a replaced engine. The salesman even toutted the fact that the car had a brand new engine, but he had to recant his story after we both talked to the Service Manager. After a ten minute test drive, it quickly became apparent to me that the car had problems. The car felt significantly underpowered, not sure why, and the manual shifter felt really sloppy. Needless to say I didn't buy the car.

Palting, My preference would be: new engine > reworked engine (if they actually tell you this) > remanufactured engine >> your engine with 45K on it

to porsche. reworked engine = new engine they put it in their new car and nobody knows.

Are you sure about that? There are very specific numeric ranges for the transmission and engine codes so if PAG were sticking remanufactured engines into brand-new cars the number series wouldn't match?

He said reworked, not remanufactured. For most people who work in manufacturing, reworked stuff is still sold as new.