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YOUR RESEARCHBlown Motor!!??
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after reading through it all
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Reported cause · Original poster
I forgot how funny this thread turned out to be after reading through it all again!
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The issue is when this happens its easy to bend that rod.
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Suggestion
#4 usually does fill with oil when the AOS fails..
Fill with oil and the car is restarted without clearing
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Most bend after the cylnder has been filled with oil and the car is restarted without clearing.
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Remember then the Germans built the Hindenburg they were so convinced they thought of all possible failure modes, they even allowed smoking on board an aircraft filled with over 7 million cu ft of hydrogen.
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Had lots of smoke problems under certain track conditions, and this solved it completely.
02 996
Screeching like a fan belt while I was cruising 3-4K slight uphill, then smoke out the left tailpipe. I'm so sick to my stomach right now...No check engine light, no over heating.
Durametric only shows PO830 (clutch encoder and Fault 31 fresh air blower
Turned it off. No leaks, but it did feel like it was loosing power just as I pulled off the road.
I'm afraid to start it and don't know where to begin.
Is a manometer the only way to check if the AOS has failed?
. If it was the AOS, turning it off was probably not a good idea if it was still running without laboring too much, but trying to restart it will even be a worse idea due to oil collecting and dripping into a cylinder, IIT could go into hydrolock. Tow it home, try to turn by hand, if it doesn't turn 720 degrees, pull the plugs and try again..
I can turn it. I also see some oil in the throttle body.
Oil hot is below half on the dipstick (been sitting 1.5 hrs) and no coolant loss or signs of intermix that I see..
Ifyou can turn by hand with no issues, I would disconnect the AOS at the TB and plug off the TB side and start engine to see how it sounds, good pressure and see if smoke starts to clear after a few min..
Yea, it has hydrolocked. It has sat long enough for too much oil has dripped in a cylinder and hydrolocked it. Remove all spark plugs and try again to turn by hand, you will pump the oil out, then reinstall plugs and start. Yea I have seen the AOS make cause the noise.
Yes but I may not have reached the full rotation of 720* as suggested. It was getting dark and I just got home from a long day at work, not to mention my car stuck on a dangerous curve while waiting for my truck and tow rope.
By the time I got the air filter back on oil must have continued to drain into the cylinder as P-Tech mentioned.
Thanks for all the help and wish's, this forum is the best!
Oh man, Bill, I feel for you. It seems like almost every week someone posts about a blown engine. We must be crazy to own a 996...
That said, perspective will make this alright. The worst news anyone can get is, �you have six months to live,� or you get a phone call from the police department telling you that your spouse or child is dead...
Ok, with that out of the way, a blown engine is actually pretty blah, with a routine fix. And maybe it is your AOS or something less painful. Either way, we are hoping for the best.
EDIT: Is this the same car that you put an engine in about 6 months ago?
The good news is that if it hydrolocked on the starter, there shouldn't be any damage. Definitely remove the plugs before attempting to turn over again.
Please confirm my sequence,
Drain oil and drop the pan (refill if filter and oil look good)
pull the plugs while oil is draining
crank it over for how long?
order new AOS (or bypass to catch can?)
Bill- hoping for the best for you.
just curious, when you placed the engine did you install a new AOS or do a manometer test on the old one? I thought these AOS fail gradually and will show a high vacuum level before a real damage occurs, but wonder if they can also fail without warning. I’ve read elsewhere the recommendation to do a manometer test at each oil change, seems like good advice.
I did not install a new AOS, nor did I do any testing. Advice noted and I will look for a Manometer...Seller did say it was running rich and the intake runners where a bit wet but I didn't know any better at the time.
Once the AOS is out can it be opened up for confirmation?
Also, how does one clean out the exhaust/cats system?
Off to work and will check back in 10hrs from now.
Very sorry to read about your engine issue. Does sound like the AOS could be the culprit. Esp if it wasn't replaced wien you put in the replacement engine, no idea how old it might be?
Pelican Parts has a nice write-up on removing the AOS without dropping the engine.
pull your filter quick. you'll only lose less than 1/2 litre in the process. no need to drain all oil or remove sump yet. presence of metal or not would dictate next steps.
Best advice so far.
Bill, you mentioned in an earlier post that you heard this sound at 3000 rpm. That's above the typical engine speed where high vacuum would be active. So that might not be the same as air being sucked by the RMS.
Drop the oil filter, as RK suggests. Get a really good look. Then decide next steps.
We're pulling for you. Keep your stick on the ice.
I thought I should have pulled the belt but didn't.
Can't touch the car until Monday afternoon when I have free time.
Will start with the filter first.
You're right. There probably isn't much in way of hockey played there.
But anytime I say "we're pulling for you", or "we're with you"; I have to add the last part. Look up
Red Green
if you're not familiar with it.
Can't say if it smelt like rubber as I have little sense of smell. Strange thing that happened after a back surgery that almost killed me in 07.
Are you referring to a rebuild of my old motor?
Well, I know everyone is saying to pull the filter, but when was the last time a major engine failure sounded like a screeching belt? Maybe that smoke you thought you saw didn�t come out the tailpipe, but from the belt? Perhaps you have a stuck pulley or accessory that lit up the belt. Maybe a water pump failed. And no, if the water pump failed, your temps might appears fine, as the temp sensor would have been able to detect the increase in temp if that happened.
I�m thinking the alternator seized. The rubber burning smell is the key to this. Screeching is a trait, and so is the smoke from the driver�s side.. It would not come from the tail pipe, but in the mirror it would appear to.
996AE, Bill and I had several messages back and forth when he put this used engine in the car. I was very frank with him in those chats, as I always will be.
Smoke was definitely pouring out of the tailpipe.
I have a crated motor ready to send out, but only once I have the funds to pay for it in full. Jake made a very generous offer allowing payments, but I've seen life changes get in the way of life sometimes...I would never have someone start on such a project unless I knew for sure they weren't wasting their time!
I appreciate everyone help, thank you!
Also, While turning it by hand, I could hear air escape some where on the right side
Just poured the oil out of the filter and see a little very fine glimmer suspended in the oil. Not sure what's considered normal.
Will cut it open shortly.
Don't get headed off in the wrong direction. Even if you see a little this or that in the filter.
Pull the plugs and see if oil pumps out of the cylinders.
If I had all the m96 engines that were replaced just because the AOS failed and locked them up in the last 20 years, and sold them for $2200 core price, I would probably have enough money to buy 2-3 2019 GT3's.
What really sucks is I was going to drop my pan last week but wanted to wait for Jakes video to drop first, so I could learn how to scope the cylinders...I really enjoyed driving this car for six months, lol!
The video was posted last week.. Subscribers got the link!
We were awaiting spring break to end before we shared it, as too many people we�re away on spring break. The share will go out tomorrow, in the mean time if you are a subscriber to Rennvision, you can see it now.
Only 17% of the people viewing the videos are subscribers.. We can�t do any more free videos unless that number triples.
That said, post a pic of what you found in the filter. Keep in mind- if it was found in the filter it already passed through the oil pump.
I have an idea of what this may be.. Did anyone pay attention to the length of the bellhoysing bolts when marrying the engine to the tranny?
Also, keep in mind the oil pick up tube had a screen ... Something that big won�t pass through the screen-
Please say more about this teaser: �I have an idea of what this may be.. Did anyone pay attention to the length of the bellhoysing bolts when marrying the engine to the tranny?�
I always keep mine organized in a piece of cardboard, just because they are so different. What is the possible cause of damage if they are put in wrong?
Cheap shops and people that don�t know any better will run these bolts in with a power tool... Or wrench them in by hand when they start to tighten up too early.. It�s classic that shops doing quick and cheap IMS work do this... All they care about is time.
A long bolt in a short hole will break through the engine case in the bank 1 timing chain well. One piece of debris the size of a quarter will break out, and fall onto the bank 1 timing chain.. The chain will act as a conveyor belt to delive this to the Cam sprocket on Bank 1... The material is caught between the chain and sprocket and either breaks the chain, or retards the timing. This results in an instant failure.
So far we�ve seen this failure 23 times... all of which could have been avoided.
Just an example of what can happen..
No metal in my oil and none on my magnetic drain plug. Swirled my magnet throughout the oil up and down and nothing. Drain plug barely had any paste on it...The big piece pictured is about 1/4" that came out of the filter and is very brittle almost like a piece of carbon deposit.
Thoughts?
Very (less than a finge nail) thin, it just crumbled when I pinched it flat between my fingers. No ridges that I could see. Almost looked like an old flake of rust (bulbous) but closer to a flake of carbon.
might just be a thing not related to your current problem. something fragile like that would not have made it through the oil pump i don't think. regardless, i'd be cautious of turning your engine until you are certain your timing hasn't pooped the bed.
It seems to me that something this size could only come from the oil filter cannister, the oil pump, pressure relief valve, or the oil pickup tube. These are the only things between the screen and the filter. Everything else would have to pass through the screen on the end of the pickup tube. This assumes the screen itself is intact...Hmmmmm
I really hope Jake is right about the seized alternator. Since the smoke was on the left side (crossed from bank2 cylinders) so the bank1 long transmission bolt theory should be less likely.
And it would cause the screeching sound, and the smoke... UNLESS the smoke comes from the tailpipe.
I have had many cars come here with "seized engines" misdiagnosed, and all they needed was an alternator.. One of these was Ed from Florida, he was a RL member on this forum, and his "blown engine" was addressed for less than 500 bucks when he sent me the car, and I properly diagnosed it.. That was over a decade ago now.
"
One of these was Ed from Florida, he was a RL member on this forum, and his "blown engine" was addressed for less than 500 bucks when he sent me the car, and I properly diagnosed it.. That was over a decade ago now."
^^ That would be LUCKY ED FROM FLORIDA!!!
Crap! Sorry to hear! Hopefully it is something easy to resolve.
I was about to suggest checking the tensioner pulleys.
A few years ago I bought a 2006 Civic Si. The previous owner said the engine locked up. Bought it for a steal.
Long story short, one of the tensioner pulley bearings melted and seized up. I think I have the pic up on my Instagram.
Sounds like yours are fine though. :-(
Also, just a heads-up, don't assume the smoke you saw coming out of the tailpipe is related to the culprit. Dont let it prevent you from simple troubleshooting. The smoke could've been related to something else.
Ok, I give up and have to ask. HOW THE HELL do you get #4 coil unplugged and out without pulling the muffler and brackets. I can't get my hand up high enough to pull up on the connector. It is unclipped though.
Also, how would you get the coil out, bend it down/forward and pull at an angle? Been on this for 45 min...Not to mention I woke up at 1am sick today!
I pulled the muffler to get at #4 when I replaced the coils, spark plugs and tubes. Not sure how you can get in there w/o moving everything....
Hope this turns out as a fixable issue that doesn't require a rebuild!
Just saw your question in other thread, I think if the car is high up enough like on a lift its easier to get it off. Like you I worked on my back with car on jack stand and for the life of me I could not remove it. I ended up just remove the muffler. It is actually easier than I thought, 10 minutes to remove the muffler when I had spent 20 minutes hurting my hand trying to get the coil out (I just decided it is impossible).
For muffler removal, remove the 3 bolts that hold the bracket and take the whole thing down. I tried to remove the 2 vertical bolts that hold the muffler to the bracket and that ended up being a fail because one of the bolt is too long and wont be able to come out without the bracket being removed.
The engine will be fine, it just got some "extra" lubrication.(failed AOS). Like I said earlier, if had the money from all the m96 engines that were replaced due to scenarios just like this, my retirement would be much happier with a few 2019 GT3's in my basement.
Thanks again gang. I still want to drop the sump and cut open my filter before getting my hopes up to high. That magnetic piece of carbon/rust has me concerned still.
#4 usually does fill with oil when the AOS fails.. The issue is when this happens its easy to bend that rod.
Pull the throttle body off and see how much oil is in the plenum, this is a good indication f how the oil entered the cylinder.. If the AOS has failed, the charge hose to the plenum will have oil, and the plenum will have a puddle in it.
Why is cylinder 4 the most affected cylinder if the AOS is above cylinder 3? Does the oil discharged from the AOS tube going into the TB "shoot" across the first plenum from the driver side to the passenger side and into the nearest cylinder (#4)?
I would make the assumption that since u turned off the motor and did not restart that the rods r probably fine. Most bend after the cylnder has been filled with oil and the car is restarted without clearing. U probably couldnt fill the cyl with enough oil while it was running. The only real way to check is to pull the piston and rod. If the aos is the issue in this case i would just *** it and turn over the engine and see if it knocks. Its a gamble but if u did bend a rod the motor has to be pulled anyways.
If fact, OP of my car had the AOS failed and hydrolocked the car. Dealership replaced the engine.
Bill, I have no knowledge to help but definitely hoping for the best case for scenario for you!
If you replace the AOS, and fire it up, it'll smoke like hell... If you hear any banging noises, you know that you have a bent rod. That's because the piston is being held at an angle.
Lots of times the bent rod isn't that apparent.. It will usually only bend a few thousandths of an inch, and usually the rod bends both directions, and appears to be straight.
This is normal, and expected.. It can't be seen easily.
I'll post a pic later from the other extreme, that can't be missed.
Looking through a borescope or from the sump usually doesn’t reveal the bent connecting rod. Most often, the rod is only slightly bent and you would have to remove it to see this.
No need to get worked up over bent rods imo - all points to a simple AOS failure? Since Bill said he turned off the engine himself - meaning it hadn't hydro-locked on oil yet - and hasn't started it after, there's no chance of him having gotten a bent rod in this case.
When an engine hydrolocks, it's going to be obvious - and you're not the one that stops the engine, in that case.
Bill said he hydrolocked it on the starter. The starter can produce a lot of torque, especially the way it's geared, but I am hopeful for bill that it didn't bend the rod.
He said it wouldn't turn over, after he let it sit for a while so the cylinder filled with oil. If no proper momentum built before it locked, I highly doubt any damage occured to his rods. Just the torque of the starter (even through that gearing) won't bend connecting rods, they're not made of cooked spaghetti. To put it in perspective, a starter motor on a weak battery has barely enough torque to make it through compression of just air, so the resistance of just that air is almost enough to counteract a weak starter motor. Enter hydrolock and a starter on a normal battery, doesn't suddenly make it capable of bending solid forged metal.
The pictures Jake is showing you are the result of forces from a running, revving engine encountering sudden hydrolock.
I have seen an M96 engine bend a rod while in the starter, after hydrolock. First hand experience there, and was there when the tow truck driver did it. In the middle of the beam these rods are very weak.
More than likely Bill hasn�t had this happen, but it�s worth noting so he can watch for it.
The bent rod I posted ventilated the top of the block, it did a lot more than score the bore. That one failed on a street with a 35 mph limit with a tiptronic trans and a female driver in her 50s... The planets aligned..
How exactly do you see a rod bend on the starter after it hydro-locked? Same situation as Bill, AOS but shut-off before hydro-lock, or did the engine stall on the hydrolock itself? Or did that particular engine gain momentum for half a turn before locking?
It's a tough sell to my engineering heart. These rods withstand mild engine detonation at high RPM without bending, but are 'very weak' vs. the starter motor? I'll see if I can do a Fermi calculation on the order-of-magnitude of the force the starter-motor can deliver to the rod. Maybe if the stars aligned and the cylinder was hydro-locked exactly at <1 degree BTDC for maximum leverage of the crankshaft.
You don�t need any calculations or formulas.. Just dirty hands, and busted knuckles. It�s called first hand experience.
I have seen this happen to a 964 engine as well.. When the dry sump tank dumped into the sump. Those rods are way stronger (and shorter) than the M96 connecting rod.
When you fix engineering mistakes everyday, nothing ever surprises you.. Even the stuff that makes no sense, and �can�t happen� will happen.
I would imagine this is due to the fact that the torque is highest when the rod is basically at rest. When the motor is running at high RPM making lots of HP, the actual torque on the rod on each revolution is very small.
It also takes just the right amount of oil in the cylinder.
A cylinder full of oil is a best case scenario because the piston/ rod can�t build up momentum before contacting the load of the oil. A cylinder 1/4 full of oil is a bad case, since the piston has a lot of time to build speed and momentum before hitting the solid resistance. The 37# flywheel and 11 pound pressure plate doesn�t help, either.
I know you're put in high regard here and don't get me wrong, I value your experience, but
if
from the calculations and formulas it turns out the force can't have been higher than those experienced under normal operations, that means the result you've seen through first-hand experience must've been caused by something else.
It's the classic mechanist vs. scientist philosophy, I've had this "experience" discussion so often. One is convinced by his own experience and accepts that as sufficient, while the other chooses to only be convinced by undeniable evidence or at least evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. On a forum, 'experience' is just hearsay and without knowing anything about the exact case you're describing I'm left to the choice of either simply believing what you say (hearsay, since I can't verify anything about what you're describing) on the basis of your reputation while I don't know a thing about you, or applying the scientific method to find out if there's merit to the explanation provided or not.
So while I respect your experience and contributions to the forum, I'm sure you understand the scientist in me (and possibly other readers here) cannot simply accept someone else's first-hand experience alone as sufficient evidence to treat the provided explanation as a fact.
I mean, that's exactly what I asked about your case, to be fair;
I have seen engines bend rods on the starter also. The usual scenario is the owner says it was running fine when I parked it, I came out next day went to start and it turned a half turn and then stopped. That's why I cautioned Bill on turning by hand before trying to start the engine. The powder forged rods of the m96 are stronger than most, but are not indestructible. Since he took my advise, I think his engine is ok.
If 60cc of oil (or more) gets into any one cylinder it will hydrolock an m96.
Radial aircraft engines had this problem on the bottom cylinders hydrolocking after sitting for several hours. Standard starting procedure is to rotate engine by hand using the prop, a full 720 degrees before starting. The bottom cylinders (upside down) would fill with oil, the oil could be "squeezed out" carefully by hand since the rings do not provide a 100% perfect seal, the oil could be slowly squeezed out. Yes, they too send off a big cloud of smoke when started..
Haha, this I will not dispute.
In the end though, the Titanic was a marvel of human engineering sank by pilot error, while the Ark never really existed outside of the book that told its story.
This thread boils down to Bill most likely having no engine damage and just some oil in there, given that he turned the engine by hand first and waited a full night before starting it, upon which he said it "didn't turn over" at all and thus likely built no momentum prior to hydro-locking. Like both me and eventually Jake too have stated. Not sure why Jake got pissy about me just asking some questions, but that doesn't really matter either tbh.
Why don't we just wait and see what Bill finds. All this analyzation is making my head hurt and is useless to the situation at hand. Calculations do NOT always explain things in my experiences either, as mentioned above at least once. Just MHO...
I am going to go out on a limb and say that if the rod is bent, then sufficient force was applied to it to bend the rod. I am pretty sure that it won't matter how the rod got bent. Either,
Rod bent = rod a problem
Rod not bent = rod not a problem
There. Now we don't have to have a philosophical debate about the rod, and can concentrate on what is wrong with Bill's motor.
The ark:
* Had no motor
* Had no air conditioning
* Only managed one trip
* No buffet, and no open bar
* Managed to run aground on the ONLY obstacle on Earth at the time.
I think it's a draw, man...
i worked for a German company, one of the largest suppliers of OEM parts in the world. When seeing a failure mode in a test that was unexpected by their calculations, their favorite comment was �Das kann nicht sein!�, or in English...� that cannot be! �. Usually followed by a very long explanation of why we must have conducted the test incorrectly or did not follow proper procedures.
Remember then the Germans built the Hindenburg they were so convinced they thought of all possible failure modes, they even allowed smoking on board an aircraft filled with over 7 million cu ft of hydrogen.
The disconnect is usually where the scientist and engineer calculated the force of the starter and the ability the rod is able to withstand the force.
Mechanics see the failure. Likely because the above math equation from Scientist/Engineer did not allow for variable such as metal fatigue, room temperature, Atmosphere pressure and thousands of things outside of the controlled environment.
All that said
, I will wait patiently for Bill's AOS replacement and that first fire up!
The argument is a lot different than that, and intuitive too. If it turns out the starter motor cannot put a force on the rod greater than the force the rod normally sees from just igniting the fuel above the piston, then the starter motor can by definition not break the rod since otherwise the same rod would have failed during normal operations. All other factors like metal fatigue and whatnot will not matter by that argument.
I'm working out the numbers, will post them when I have them. As it stands now, I of course have no clue yet whether the force of the starter motor will be bigger or smaller, but will report back obviously.
And that would intrigue me to no end, since that means there is an unknown factor at work, and you now have the opportunity to solve a mystery. Them saying "you must've done it wrong" (if you properly documented everything you did, that is) is a sign of them being bad scientists. They should put everything in their power to trying to reproduce the fault that "couldn't be" and understand it / find out what they missed..
If you try and turn over a motor that has one cylinder ready to hydrolock, it's also possible that another cylinder fires before the lockup. I'm not saying it couldn't happen without ignition, but there's that whole other variable of the rest of the cylinders trying to fire up too.
Im pretty sure bill's refference to "it would not turn over" was his explaination of not being able to rotate it by hand. I dont think he ever tried to crank the motor with the starter but i will let him chime in to verify.
I got hit real hard with the flu, and stepped away for the day...
Sorry gang, The flu has hit me hard and I had to step away from the car.
I turned the motor by hand (belt on though) and got 360* + of rotation. I then tried to crank (no momentum) it but it was hydro locked at that point.
After I pulled the plugs and drained the oil from #4, it rotated by hand with normal compression resistance.
Like I said, I fully agree that if the engine gained momentum before hitting the lock it's very likely to bend the rod. However Bill said his engine didn't gain momentum.
Thank you posting that. I went looking for something and found that. It was a bit too much - even for me.
Sometimes a little humor goes a long way. Especially during these trying times....
So Bill. Get a few rolls of duct tape. And keep your....never mind...
It had an RMS (Religiously Motivated Seaman), an IMS (Impending Maritime Situation) and an AOS (Animal Organizing System).
BTW - I'm pulling for you Bill!
Good job, Boxman!! I enjoyed following the math logic throughout.
No guarantees, but from your calculations, I agree... a good chance his motor is not toast.
Ever read my blown motor thread here?
You mean the longest topic on the forum? Well I have now.. :P Great read.
I slightly edited the calculation in the meantime, I found a few minor errors and I sourced more accurate numbers on cylinder pressure. The results don't differ that much, the 'dangerzone' window grew by 2 degrees crank.
With all due respect, what has taken you two days to formulate, basically Raby summed up in a few sentences. I have a love for science, but I can't see how something with so many unknown/unseen variables can be quantified. Now if the engine goes through a disassembled post-failure anaylsis, that would be a game changer. It will be interesting to see once the motor can be started if any internal damage has occurred from the AOS failure.
What he didn't want to back up with anything other than "because I say so" (unverifiable, unfalsifiable), I indeed formulated in a definite manner that is verifiable by anyone who has basic physics and maths skills. If you don't see the value in that, I doubt you actually have a love for science.
What exactly are the unknowns in your opinion? The forces are calculated in an exact manner based on this particular engine's specific dimensions, down to 0.1mm precise. With rigid bodies like these the analysis is really straightforward. The only true 'unknown' is the actual safety margin on the conrod, but the analysis provided gives a clear and definite lower boundary based on the forces your conrod experiences every day.
Also "two days", I mean, you know this forum has timestamps, right?
I was told a quick check for the AOS is too remove the oil cap while idling, if it's hard to open, then the AOS is starting to fail.
Does this sound right guys?
It's actually common knowledge among seasoned Technicians that hydrolocking bends rods, even on the starter. But I enjoyed and applaud your calculations and I now know who to call on if I need a formula..
I appreciate Boxman's effort. This is how engineering works. He did have to make assumptions to bound the scenario. There may be factors outside the calculation that result in a bent rod, such as ignition in several of the cylinders during rotation, a flaw or prior damage to the connecting rod, etc. Bill will know the actual status after the runs the engine and has empirical data. Boxman's calculation would make me feel comfortable that it is unlikely the rod was damaged on the starter, but we won't know for sure until the engine is either run or disassembled.
Unfortunately, there is no easy way for Bill to determine the status of the rod, that I am aware of. Worst case is he fires it up and it appears to run well and then has a catastrophic failure at 7000 RPM under load. Thats the way it goes with mechanical stuff sometimes.
Hey
@NuttyProfessor
Here's the deal. Boxman's education and training said "it doesn't seem to make sense" and Jake said "well, I've seen it".
So Boxman sat down and did the real engineering work. Because despite what others may think, there's going to be a real scientific answer to why the rods get bent. Boxman didn't see it at first, but when he sat down and did the calculations and the deep thinking on it, he saw how it is true that it can happen. This means he now knows Jake was right despite his initial thoughts on the subject.
Smart people with slide rules and less computational power than a smartphone put men on the Moon. Science works. And user 63031 didn't need anything more than the simple (haha not so simple) basics to sit down and show himself that what he thought couldn't happen, could happen.
The US is going down hill fast with people not trusting engineering, science, and math. We prefer to trust our gut, our emotions. Which is a shame.
Yes, leave the tube disconnected at the throttle body. Block off the port on the throttle body with a proper cap plug, else sit could be sucked in the engine.
. The red plastic one that fits " over" the port will be OK for temporary use, just don't use one that fits "inside " the port. A proper plug is like the 5/8 expandable rubber/ metal live well type plugs.
No, no photo, we were just talking about the red caps that you always end up with a small drawer full of if you do much automotive work, that are handy for capping things to keep dust , debris, fluid drips, ect, but are for temporary use only and are not suitable for high temp,pressure, or long term use.
This group is great.
The amount of eclectic minds that are willing to contribute is outstanding.
The scientists, the mechanics, the bull busters, the engineers and the old SOBs that used to turn wrenches, now we just talk C%$#$$
It is a good mix.
I sm.proud to be a memeber here.
I don't have the expierecne to help Bill, but I will be here to pat him on back if if is an aos without rod damage and if it is worst, consol with words of encourage and offer to locate parts for him
Ever one of you poster are making a hughe impact on his state of mind, most all positive
'- David
Thats what we do
^^Amen, and to the stupid funny guys, thanks for the laughs (it does help)
Now to find another cap option, mine's thin and it sits inside the opening...
Just for you, Tex.
^ This is the kind of plug that will probably fail after enough heat and vacuum cycles. I will not be doing the math.
It was replaced a day later with one that will last a little longer... v
Added a little sensor-safe RTV and a hose clamp to keep it from popping off. Still just a temporary fix, but much more robust than the cap in the first photo.
I have a plastic jar full of caplugs. There are always tasks that require plugging or capping things.
Bill - when you're feeling better, you'll want to try a procedure such as this. Even if you plan to replace the AOS, you will likely want to add a catch can, or at the very least, route a hose off the AOS vent line to get the vapors from being expelled right in the engine bay. I'm still working through this on my car.
I have a set of yellow plugs in various diameters that I use for smoke testing cars.
I really hadn't thought about plugs being in any specific color, especially red.
Yes.
I'll say that for me, it's probably the difference between being able to do essentially all 996 jobs myself, and having to pay someone to do them. Which is pretty much the difference between being able to afford a 996, and not.
Hang in there Bill, and keep posting.
Run it up and down my twisty road and all seems fine.
I did forget to plug in my MAF when I started it it though and got the ABS/PCM failure...Will clear it and take another spin!
I just went through this exact same thing, brother. It was just a couple of weeks ago. Visit the "125,000 mile tune-up" thread. I can insert a link to the most relevant page, if you like.
Yes - drive it! Keep an eye (and ear) out for everything and anything unusual.
Nice job - you kept your stick on the ice.
Oh -
weak
(battery)
Great news, Bill! So you just deleted the AOS and blanked off the intake, put the system out-of-commision, so to speak? In that case I wouldn't drive it as a daily since you've got blow-by gases with oil vapor going everywhere. I assume you left a breather hole open so the blow-by can at least escape; high crankcase pressures can be harmful to your oil seals. Short trips if needed shouldn't be too much of a problem, personally I'd avoid them until I get the issue completely fixed though.
Glad to hear! I'm curious how often AOS's spontaneously combust without warning. I've been measuring mine with a manometer, but I will probably opt for a replacement. Unfortunately it's an engine out deal with my Tip Cab and not something I could DIY.
Yes AOS tube left open. I wonder If I should put a small filter on it?
My commute to work is 12 min and need to use it.
I'm just not set up to drop my motor at home right now.
Well played sir.
I need to be more careful of what I say...Touch�!
I just posted what I thought was a good idea on your thread. Vent right to the oil fill cap.
Great news for all us 996 owners who refuse to buy into the constant hype of the many modes of failures for our rides.
I'm a believer in the other 93% who dont suffer from ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________
As someone once said;
Nope, its not all about Unicorns and Rainbows, people don't want to hear it.
Congrats.
Whew! Great news Bill! I was slammed between kiddo and work all day and this is the first I could check in. What an excellent piece of news to come home to!
The odds were in your favor.
blown motor failure mode avoided !!!
Now go forth and heal thy self, then return to heal thy 996 !!! Don't ya just love a happy ending...
Indeed great news that the motor isn't "blown up"...
There are still a few burning questions though... ? Was there any (unseen) damage done by a cylinder hydrolocking? It also sounds like this engine has seen at least some track time as indicated by the presence of a "deep sump kit" that Bill has just noticed ? What's the plan to address the (bad?) AOS ? Are you going to stick with a catch can set-up ? It sounds to me like there might be some future issues in store for this engine
Glad to hear the engine is fine.
Nice to find out you have a deep sump plate.
Now you'll have to use a little more oil when you change oil.
I may look at adding a small oil catch can to my car.
I wonder if there is an issue with having a vented catch can.
It may be better to put one inline with the hose going to the intake plenum.
I'll have to see if I can find a catch can small enough that I can fit somewhere.
Hey Bruce,
This is my current state. I found a cheap catch can on Amazon. I'm currently trying to source lighter and cheaper fittings (HDPE) to clean up the installation (having trouble finding 45 degree elbows). Do you have room to fit a beer can near your air pump? Assuming you have a similar configuration...
I do not want to vent back to the plenum. That would probably reproduce the issue that necessitated this modification in the first place.
I'd like to vent into the air box. Do you have a thought on the best place for this? My initial thought was to install a nipple where the yellow ring is placed. The other idea would be at the opposite end of the box just above the water drain holes.
The outlet vent fitting is just visible at the far left. It currently has a fuel line running around the air box and then down under the rear of the engine. I think sucking most of the fumes back into the engine might not be a bad thing.
These are all things that kept me tossing and turning last night. I was more concerned about getting the car buttoned up and started and since there was nothing (other than the one piece) found in my filter pleats it was safe to not pull the sump.
My thought was to drive it a couple hundred of miles while waiting for a new AOS and then check the filter again. BUT, that one piece concerns me and I need to find its source.
Maybe I should not drive it and open her up completely for piece of mind.
It sure felt good driving and my wife said it sounded better when I started it, lol (must have been the fresh oil)
Scott,
My air pump has been relocated, so I'd have to look and see what room I might have.
I also don't have the factory intake.
I have a Fabspeed intake.
I could attach a catch can to the carbon fiber heat shield.
But I couldn't route the exit to the intake.
I could easily run it back to the plenum though.
My AOS is starting to fail.
A catch can would allow me to keep an eye on it before it gets really bad.
My schedule, and illness, doesn't allow me to fix it at the moment.
i do not know this personally, but read it on the intraweb - does the bottom end require vacuum for the rings to work properly? this is why the aos vent is located where it is - so that vacuum is created. going to a catch can will keep the oil from dumping into your engine upon aos failure, but then the crankcase is at atm pressure and not vacuum.
i think the soln is to keep the aos, run it through a catch can, but then vent the catch can to the intake - vacuum maintained, but then you have something that will catch (some) oil before it enters the engine, and also an early indicator of pending aos failure - excessive oil accumulation in the catch can.
Just about every other engine I have have seen has a PVC system that will pull fumes from the crankcase into the intake and then the combustion chamber. None are so complex that a failure pulls oil out of the engine into the combustion chamber. I'm no expert, but I have my doubts on the 'ring theory' you mention.
Not exactly apples to apples, but I have several race engines with the crankcase vented to the atmosphere. I suspect PCV systems came along as emissions become more of a concern, not to get the rings to work.
If you find something that supports this theory, please post a link.
6 inches of water = -0.22psi negative pressure.
It's true that pressure helps rings seal, cylinder pressure above the rings is hundreds of psi, negative pressure below the rings by AOS (-0.22psi)or any PCV system will help seal the rings, but is minor in comparison.
I have been running my engine for over a year with the AOS disabled and vented to atmosphere, there may be a slight increase in oil consumption, but if so it is minor, I still consume about 1 quart per 1k miles at 175k miles.
The ideal setup would be the stock properly functioning AOS ( for emission reasons) including an inline catch can (1 quart) with a floating ball shutoff (like what a wet/dry vacuum has) and also to really elaborate, floating magnetic switch to warning indicator so that you would know when an issue has happened.
Could anyone explain why only #4 cylinder showed massive amounts of oil on the spark plug? Why only 1 bank of cylinders?
Did Bill see sign's of AOS failure before this event? Does this gradually fail or is fairly immediate failure?
The other issue with the AOS pulling a vacuum on the crankcase is under wide open throttle when crankcase pressure would be highest manifold vacuum would be lowest since the throttle blade is fully open.
Heavier oil droplets in a lighter air mass will follow
momentum
and
gravity
to number 4 cylinder. Looking at the intake design will clarify this.
The AOS failure is due to a rubber diaphragm that can either develop a small leak and get bigger over time, or can rupture quickly if weakened and exposed to quick high vacuum scenarios like what is encountered in aggressive loads variations.
I found a catch can on Amazon with a dipstick.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076BKV7JF/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A26XZY1DGLFZZH&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076BKV7JF/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A26XZY1DGLFZZH&psc=1
Ordered and should be delivered tomorrow.
I'm going to try adding that and venting it for now.
I just need to find a suitable red cap for my plenum.
I had a cap when I painted my plenum before installation.
Hopefully it is still laying around somewhere.
Yea, looks to be the same one sold by a different entity. Well made unit, good machining and quality, I did however add more internal baffling by unscrewing the internal baffle and stuffing a brass continuous loop filter media (scrub pad) into the baffle chamber.
Someone could use this one as a good base and build a sophisticated very usefull system. Machine a floating ball shut-off into the baffle chamber, and a floating magnetic full indicator switch to screw into the dipstick hole..
My AOS is still functioning (to the best of my knowledge) and tests OK, but every track day I worry. I just hate that these units are so unreliable (even new units) and that failure can be so catastrophic and seemingly so easy to prevent. I like the idea of a "backup" or a sort of failsafe. Why Porsche would not have designed a catch can in, when the general engine and unit design almost ensures that a failed AOS will lead to hydrolock.
The beauty of pressure is that under-pressure underneath rings is 100% equivalent with overpressure above (in the combustion chamber). By that argument, since vacuum is at most -14.7 PSI and above the cylinder you'll have up to 1200 PSI - and both are equivalent in terms of resulting forces - the 14.7 max vacuum PSI is negligible towards the combustion pressure.
My unofficial look at the AOS systems is that it sure seems that ones that have been replaced seem to have a higher reported failure rate (and relative infant mortality) as compared to the originally supplied units. Just thinking out loud.
A catch can is basically a low tech poor man�s air-oil separator.
Air laden with oil oil vapor and mist enters the catch can and goes through some baffled/mesh that will allow it to cool and condense and collect and drop to the bottom of the can. Air is allowed to vent out of the top of the can after having passed though this mesh/baffle. From there it goes wherever the installer wants it to go. Vent to atmosphere or crankcase or throttle body.
You generally have to manually empty a catch can. The AOS is designed to route oil back into the engine oil and gasses to the intake.
People use aftermarket catch cans on F-150 ecoboost 3.5L twin turbo motors to capture oily fumes that come from the turbo pop-off valves. These normally go unfiltered to the intake where they condense oil in the intercooler. This sludge mixed with water condensation piles up until it�s sucked in large quantities into the engine and bad things happen.
Great news Bill!!
Now, do this:
-Change all the spark plugs
-Remove the primary O2 sensors, and clean the oil from them (If not, they will fail soon)
Now, what everyone else needs to learn from this is that preventative measures are the key, rather than reactive measures.
So, Change the damn AOS, and stop thinking that it can�t happen to you!
Hope things work out, Bill!
^Thank you Jake!
Anything special needed to clean them, carb or electrical contact cleaner? Spray and blow dry?
Or, is it a soak and wait. Just read gasoline can be used?
I don't have one of these...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...il&FORM=VIREHT
My concern is that I have read so many cases of "new" AOSs failing within months, it's hard to pull out something that is working to replace it with an unknown. Bird in the hand thing. If I felt I could absolutely count on a replacement, I wouldn't hesitate. Is there a way to test a new AOS to ensure it's fully working and will continue to work?
The real underlying issue is that all modern high performance engines are having PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system issues. These vapors used to be dropped right on the road. Then the government decided they needed to be routed back to the intake side. That wasn�t too bad during the carburetor days. It�s been bad since EFI, worse for turbo charged cars due to boost in the intake and it�s even worse for DFI cars since fuel no longer washes the intake valve.
The sad fact is OEMs haven�t solved this issue yet, so the aftermarket invented catch cans. A catch can is like sticking a band aid on a gushing wound in a lot of cases. The best solution is a properly working PCV system. For the M96 that�s likely a genuine AoS or genuine Motorsports AoS.
Thinking you can do without is wrong too. Before PCV, block explosions were a thing.
bad scientist. more than one ring and one type of ring on the piston, yes, so not exactly a 100% equivalency of pressure above/below? further, rings are expected to behave differently depending on the stroke. also, understand the environment in the crankcase - blow-by from the pistons is pressurising the crankcase, vaporisation of oil is pressurising the crankcase. pressure caused by a descending piston is not immediately offset by the reduction in pressure cause by an ascending piston. further, the blow-by contains fuel vapour which is not good for lubrication - you want to evacuate that stuff and not hope that a tiny pcv valve is going to allow things to come to equilibrium in a timely manner. note also that the aos vents the heads as well, so assume the same considerations apply there. i've also read that the vacuum helps limit foaming/aeration of the oil but not sure how this works.
for info regarding ring seals and crankcase vacuum, just google 'ring seal crankcase vacuum'. low tension rings (such as are on the m96) get mentioned. ultimately, the take-home is that engines designed for a negative pressure environment should be kept in a negative pressure environment. also note that an engine at full howl creates lots of vacuum - the air flowing by the aos connection on the intake creates suction.
installing a catch can in series with the aos as backup is not too hard a task; replace the hose that runs from the aos to the intake with a hose that goes from aos to catch can then back again. as noted, a small spigot on the bottom allows you to drain off any accumulated oil and assess the health of your aos in the process.
if you want to get real crazy, check out the tandem scavenge pumps used on the m97 engines. a direct replacement for the scavenge pumps on the m96, but come with a vacuum pump as well. m97 uses it for brake booster pressure, but should be robust enough to handle crank fumes as well.
finally, i too am a trained scientist, but try to avoid making blanket statements of fact, especially in areas out of my specialisation. when i went to school, scientists told me there were 9 planets. now scientists tell me there are 8; that's a pretty big thing to get wrong. and i may have gotten something wrong in the above as well, as this is not my area of specialisation.
Every engine we build gets a new genuine Porsche AOS.
In the last 200 engines we've had two fail. One didn't last long enough for the vehicle to be shipped home. We found the issue before complete failure, using the manometer test. We perform 3 manometer tests during the first 104 miles, and dyno time with every engine.
The other 996 was delivered, and it failed within the first month the car was home.
Lots of the AOS failures you read about are coming from cut- rate parts houses, or they are a cheesy, Chinese made version sold by a manufacturer that steals everyone else's ideas. They should be stoned.
You get what you pay for with the AOS. If you do what we do, the odds are in your favor that you'll have a positive experience with the replacement AOS. Lots of the ones we've installed are going on 12-14 years of service, and a few of them are way beyond that. I recommend them being changed every 3 years, but probably 2% of the purchasers actually listen to that.
Keep in mind, everything we build is at least 200ccs larger than stock, and some engines are 800-1100ccs larger than stock, and these genuine Porsche AOS units are holding up even on these engines. I have had one of them hold 40" or crankcase pressure and not fail.
By the same token, anything can fail at anytime, and I'll probably eat my words by having an AOS fail this week.
Your chances of an original AOS failing are a lot greater than keeping the stock one. If I felt like you did, I'd save the money on every build, and not replace the AOS. Do I do that? No, I feel that it's not in the best interest of the reputation, or the purchaser's investment. No compromises are made here.
my goodness. Well, at least you didn't belabour the thread with more random equations. i get it; you are human like the rest of us and, when faced with being called on straight up 'not-rightness', tend towards aggression or defensiveness instead of truth or fact. bad scientist. hey, don't get discouraged; they say that 50% of scientists finished in the bottom half of their class, so you've got room for improvement.
Sheesh. I thought his math explanations were good. I enjoyed reading and pondering them.
Anyway, your comment reminds me of a funny LA Times headline I saw once, bemoaning the education system. It read "50 Percent of Students Below Average."
Calm down, love
I hope you don't expect people to actually value your words when the very first two words already construct a personal insult.
I stopped reading right there, didn't read the rest of your post, couldn't care less.
Whenever I make an error somewhere or missed something, I'm always more than willing to discuss and will be the first to admit when wrong. But if you engage someone with disrespect, expecting a meaningful reply in return would be pretty foolish. By what I gather from this little snippet right here, all you're interested in is ad-hominem and insults, and I really wish you best of luck with that.
Catch can is in the upper right. Looks like a clean installation. Would be interesting to see the lines that enter the air box. Also, how the catch can attaches - and to what...
I'd also like to understand the reasoning behind vent line to the oil fill cap. What is that helping with?
If you guys checked out that turbo'd boxster build from piston heads, he routes the PCV line to the exhaust. It will still pull a vacuum and let's gases vent to atmosphere. Another option to consider.
Edit:
part 1 details how he routed it:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...=1571615&i=360
here is the part 2 build
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1695359&i=0
Definitely worth the read
Yea, looks like a good clean install. The vent on the oil cap is just for more flow/vent, less restriction, may not help any if you got all the flow your need, but sure doesn't hurt.
Yea, drag cars been useing exhaust evac for decades. A reed valve/check valve installed at the header collector helps to create a vacuum to evacuate the crankcase.
I wonder if a welded bung after a cat will draw enough of a vacuum. I believe there is a capped port on the stock cat pipes, but if I remember correctly, it's in front of the cat. Have you tried this before on the 996?
I have the snap on wireless vacuum/pressure gauge. I can measure the vacuum at the stock location vs the bung in the cat while driving and graph over a range of RPM. Unfortunately it won't be able to overlay rpm and vacuum data, but at least it can give us an idea.
And before anyone asks how a "wireless" pressure gauge works, it still hooks up like any other gauge. However, it can wireless pair with a tablet/phone, so you can monitor it during a test drive and graph data.
I don't think so, to create a vacuum you either need a LOT of flow past an angled port, or pressure pulses( with a reed valve to capture the low pressure waves), but the only way to know for sure would to be install and put a gauge on it..
So I ended up digging through some old pictures of mine to see what is in the area of the catch can shown above. There are two studs that would make a good mounting point that are used for the positive terminal and P/S reservoir mount. Fabricating a bracket that attaches there and then to the can would not be difficult.
How do you know when you have enough flow?
I'll post up some new information on my 125,000 mile thread soon. Found a few new things. Don't want to pollute this thread with that...
Use your manometer to measure the crankcase pressure, the lower the pressure the better, the better then flow ( a negative pressure ( vacuum) is even more desirable, but can't be achieved by just venting)..
When you look at your intake plenum (the thing your throttle body bolts to), you should see a plastic line coming into it on the driver side. This line comes from the AOS. So in the original configuration, you have oil going into your intake plenum. A catch can goes at the end of this line. So now instead of it oil going into your intake plenum, it's being captured by this "secondary" catch can. The catch can needs an outlet. If you google a catch can, you will probably see that most of them have an air filter that vents them into the atmosphere. We don't want that. So instead of venting it into the atmosphere the line coming out of catch can then goes to the intake. If you're routing it to the intake box, you would want to have it enter after the filter, so your filter doesn't get contaminated with residual oil.
In my earlier comment, you could possibly have the outlet coming from the catch can go to the exhaust instead of the intake. The theory is that the exhaust could generate enough vacuum, similar to hooking it up at the intake. This would prevent any oil from going into your intake, however mother earth will be taking one for the team.
Inducing oil "mist" into the hot exhaust would smoke/burn, oil "vapor" would not. You would want to make sure the oil droplets were removed.
To remove the droplets the momentum/flow can be ran into a larger chamber to slow the momentum/flow and allow gravity to pull the droplets out of the stream, or can be "swirled" to throw the droplets to the outer wall to remove them, or can be "scrubbed" by running through a thick wire mesh to remove the droplets. Then the oil vapor and be induced into the exhaust and blown out the back.
I don't have any long-term data to draw from, but in the few days I have been using my catch can, the accumulation is small. Less than an ounce of
water
, after a couple of days. Once I get mine sorted out, I'll have a better idea how it works and what to expect. The can I have is fairly small, with a capacity of 300 ml (10 oz). Probably a month or so between draining is likely.
Look closely at Silk’s can, he has a sight tube on the outside to visually check the fluid level so he knows when it needs to be drained.
Scott - where did the water come from? Condensation, or is your coolant level dropping?
That's a nice feature. I'll probably install something much closer to that design when I get around to it.
Charlie - it's condensate. I am gaining confidence that the coolant level is stable just below the part number on the bottle. There is some oil vapor coming from the AOS vent, but it is so much smaller than the amount of water vapor being expelled.
Scott: good news, but now I have to wonder if you didn’t have the tank where would the condensate go.? Back into the sump, or into the plenum? I’m guessing (hoping) plenum, but if not, what does it mean for those of us without a catch can?? I guess it underscores the importance of getting the oil temp up high enough on a regular basis so the moisture evaporates (boils) out.
Conclusion: drive it like you stole it!
There was a catch can on Amazon that I almost purchased that had the sight tube.
But reading reviews showed that it had melted and leaked for some people.
Amazon
Amazon
Mishimoto makes one too.
I would assume that theirs would be of much better quality.
Amazon
Amazon
It might not be too difficult to replace the hose on the cheap one with Tygon tubing. The Mishimoto unit looks pretty fancy. Not sure the cost of carbon fiber is warranted for an item such as this (at least not for me).
