Getting quote for IMS Solution, comments?

There is only one IMS Solution certified shop that can do the work in my entire province, and this is the quote I was given. Very steep ... thinking of skipping the RMS as it is not leaking and I suspect that it was already replaced anyway. The car is a 1999 C4 tiptronic with 170 000 km. The engine was replaced at 90 000 with another 99 engine according to the serial number on the engine, but mileage is not known on the engine. It is not known if the IMS was Porsche or aftermarket or what else was done to the engine. PPI when we bought the car said all was good and super clean down there. IMS Retrofit / Solution Pre-qualification Inspection Minor engine scan checking for codes, monitor readiness, cam deviation and over rev monitor. List any other network codes in the system. If passed this Inspection will also guarantee IMS component warranty. Remove engine oil filter and cut open, inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Remove lower engine sump pan and inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Also inspect air oil separator if present. Labor $385.00 cdn Engine Oil Filter 1 Unit $35.48 cdn Engine Oil 8.5 Unit $118.83 cdn Gasket Sealant 1 Unit $36.54 cdn Engine Oil Analysis $35.00 cdn Discount -$84.00 cdn Sub $526.85 cdn Porsche Rear Engine Seal - Automatic Transmission Remove all the needed components to remove the transmission and replace the rear engine seal. Labor $1,700.16 cdn Exhaust Gasket 2 Unit $14.44 cdn Rear Crank Shaft Seal 1 Unit $49.94 G cdn Discount -$340.03 cdn Sub $1,424.51 cdn IMS Solution Installation Remove all needed components to extract failing / problematic IMS bearing. Make the necessary modifications and install the new IMS Solution assembly, including new oil filter adapter and filter. Recommend using Joe Gibbs DT40 engine oil and NAPA Gold 1348 engine oil filter. Labor $539.00 cdn IMS Solution Kit 1 Unit $2,542.62 cdn Engine Block Camshaft Tensioner Gasket 2 Unit $6.16 cdn CAM PLUG 4 Unit $108.96 cdn Super Magnet Aluminum Drian Plug 1 Unit $75.40 cdn Discount -$107.80 cdn Sub $3,164.34 cdn Total Parts $2,988.37 cdn Total Labor $2,127.33 cdn Total Before Taxes & Miscellaneous Charges $5,115.70 cdn Shop Supplies $100.00 cdn Canadian Goods and Services Tax (GST) 5 % $260.79 cdn Grand Total $5,476.49 cdn Total discounts applied is $531.83 cdn This Estimate is based on visual inspection, and does not include additional items which may be required after disassembly. Occasionally, after work is started, worn, broken, or damaged parts maybe discovered which were not evident upon the initial Prices are in Canadian

Also talked to my Porsche service department and they said this: After speaking with our Shop foreman – he has come back with the information below: L&N Engineering IMS bearing replacement is something we can do however, following needs to be considered: 1.) There will be no warranty provided by Porsche Centre relating to the use of non-Porsche approved parts or procedures, which this is. That includes oil leaks from the IMS shaft flange area. 2.) Yes, we always recommend replacing the rear main crank seal if doing this job. 3.) I would not recommend performing this update in this vehicle at all for the following reason: a. This vehicle is equipped with a dual row IMS bearing. They are not prone to failure, we have never seen one of these fail. If it were a later model vehicle with the single row bearing, we would recommend the replacement, but not in this case. 4.) Doing the coolant pump at the same time can be done, however there are no savings to be had. The only composite maintenance we would recommend would be to not do the IMS bearing unless you are doing a clutch. The labour itself would be approx. 13 - 14 hours + the cost of parts as well as shop supplies to perform this job. Again, we recommend against performing this job unless there is a symptom, or the vehicle is having a clutch replaced, or the transmission is out for some other reason anyway. Please let me know if you have any questions. Kind Regards

My opinion.....Doing all this work and NOT doing an RMS is idiotic.......The dealer is correct on everything they are saying however the dual row bearings still do fail. Just not as common.... I disagree about the no additional discount on the water pump for only one reason. If i recall correctly, Manual trans cars only require trans removal, Tiptronic/Auto cars require engine removal to do the IMS due to a bell housing bolt not being accessible. Therefore they should give some consideration to that and only charge a minimal amount of additional labor. The IMS Solution is a very expensive permanent repair. Therefore it is expensive. You could go with just the regular LN kit or leave it alone. Cost is something to consider as well as how long you intend to keep the car.

One thing to consider is that part of the cost of doing RMS in your quote is removing the transmission. By not doing the RMS, you will just have that cost added to the IMS part of your quote. You are not saving much on not doing the RMS.

That's quite a markup on the IMS Solution Kit, as it can be had all day long for $1799.00 (that's the price direct from LN Engineering. You can also buy them from several discounters for substantially less here's a link to the Solution from Carid https://www.carid.com/ln-engineering...hoCwd4QAvD_BwE He's also charging separate labor for each step then "discounting" at the end... $1700.16 labor to do the rear main seal? Really? Then another $2k to do the IMSS - he's already charged you all the labor to drop the engine and separate the transmission. IMO that estimate is total BS - those are all "book hours" that are based on if that's the only job you're going to do. Anybody who's done this (as I have) knows that once the engine and tranny are out of the car, everything else is a cakewalk. The rear main seal is literally a $20-$30 part - to charge you $1424.51 including a "discount" of $340.03 for it is highway robbery - not to mention disingenuous. The rest of the estimate is full of the same kind of stuff. Go back to him and negotiate a "REAL" price based on real parts prices (he obviously has to make a reasonable mark-up of around 30-35% on his cost for parts, but not some inflated "list price") and real labor hours. You should be looking at a number closer to $4k - $4.5k

dporto, the prices are CAD vs. USD, right now $1 CAD = $0.75 USD. So for the $1,799 USD price / .75 = $2,398 CAD, so it's not a ton extra at $2,542, but I would think it would be closer to a discount than an extra $150 CAD. I only know this is because I spent the last two weeks putting together a quote to do work for a Canadian company.

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I maybe be looking at this wrong but the OP GRAN TOTAL is $5476.49 CAD......thats $4128.68 in US.....I dont see anywhere he is quoted twice. I see the RMS as the original quote (sub est 2) then the additional IMS stuff (sub est 3). Any shop will have an additional charge for the IMS components install - they are charging $539 for the additional labor. I see no issue with a shop doing that. ANd they are charging $1916 in US $ for the kit. i expect a shop to charge profit to a job.

Maybe this is a dumb question: Is the quote shown in US or Canadian dollars? Even if C$ it seems really inflated, but just wondering. NEVERMIND! subject jumped on above as I was typing!

It would have been nice if Jim stated CAD in all of his posts about this issue. As said before, they are taking you to the cleaners...Have you ever had a UOA done or checked you cam deviations, drained your oil and inspect the filter, dropped the sump and check for debris? If not start there first then decide if the cost is worth it. Otherwise save your money and put an annual reserve aside for a future rebuild.

I suspect the RMS was done anyway when the new engine was put in at 90 000 km. Trying to contact the previous owner to get any info I can, as an extra $1500 to do the RMS is pricey ...

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Only mechanical work done on the car from us is AOS and struts and strut mounts. And regular servicing.

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As said before, the part is $25 US and the rest is already taken apart for easy access to do the IMSS, so an addition 30 min job replacing the RMS (I've done it) should not cost that much!

IMS Retrofit / Solution Pre-qualification Inspection Minor engine scan checking for codes, monitor readiness, cam deviation and over rev monitor. List any other network codes in the system. If passed this Inspection will also guarantee IMS component warranty. Remove engine oil filter and cut open, inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Remove lower engine sump pan and inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Also inspect air oil separator if present. Labor $385.00 Engine Oil Filter 1 Unit $35.48 Engine Oil 8.5 Unit $118.83 Gasket Sealant 1 Unit $36.54 Engine Oil Analysis $35.00 Discount -$84.00 Sub $526.85 This Price is to Pre Qualify the car ONLY. No Actual Repairs Porsche Rear Engine Seal - Automatic Transmission Remove all the needed components to remove the transmission and replace the rear engine seal. Labor $1,700.16 Exhaust Gasket 2 Unit $14.44 Rear Crank Shaft Seal 1 Unit $49.94 G Discount -$340.03 Sub $1,424.51 This is the Price to PULL the trans and do the rear main seal IMS Solution Installation Remove all needed components to extract failing / problematic IMS bearing. Make the necessary modifications and install the new IMS Solution assembly, including new oil filter adapter and filter. Recommend using Joe Gibbs DT40 engine oil and NAPA Gold 1348 engine oil filter. Labor $539.00 IMS Solution Kit 1 Unit $2,542.62 Engine Block Camshaft Tensioner Gasket 2 Unit $6.16 CAM PLUG 4 Unit $108.96 Super Magnet Aluminum Drian Plug 1 Unit $75.40 Discount -$107.80 Sub $3,164.34 This is the ADDITIONAL price for the IMS parts/kit and to install it once the trans has been removed in the above step. This is NOT additional labor to remove the trans. Total Parts $2,988.37 Total Labor $2,127.33 Total Before Taxes & Miscellaneous Charges $5,115.70 Shop Supplies $100.00 Canadian Goods and Services Tax (GST) 5 % $260.79 Grand Total $5,476.49 This is for the final once all work is done in CAD not US...

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Ha! Yeah...totally missed that (it was all the way at the bottom of the page)... So, if it's really $4100.00 US, that seems like a decent # ...

This is a good/normal price. I had my IMS Solution done in Ontario 2 years ago, and it was comparable.

I see your in Edmonton....I just purchased a car serviced by Alpine...in calgary...maybe touch base with them? My (2003) 996.2 I just purchased has 150km on it...engine was changed by Porsche in 2012 (at 100km)...I called the dealer and all other mechanics locally and they told me since it was replaced in 2012, it would have the most up to date engine with all the bells and whistles...so it would have the larger bearing (not easily servicable) that came in the 2005... can you use the engine code and contact the dealer and find out which bearing is in the engine? (i know you said mileage is unknown, which I assume means a used engine was put in)

Here is their quote on a retrofit, rather than the solution from the same indie (I am not naming them as I don't want to give a bad impression of anyone. I just need opinions, as this is a lot of cash): All prices in Canadian IMS Retrofit / Solution Pre-qualification Inspection Minor engine scan checking for codes, monitor readiness, cam deviation and over rev monitor. List any other network codes in the system. If passed this Inspection will also guarantee IMS component warranty. Remove engine oil filter and cut open, inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Remove lower engine sump pan and inspect for debris or ferrous metal. Also inspect air oil separator if present. Labor $385.00 Engine Oil Filter 1 Unit $35.48 Engine Oil 8.5 Unit $118.83 Gasket Sealant 1 Unit $36.54 Engine Oil Analysis $35.00 Discount -$84.00 Sub $526.85 Porsche Rear Engine Seal - Automatic Transmission Remove all the needed components to remove the transmission and replace the rear engine seal. Labor $1,700.16 Exhaust Gasket 2 Unit $14.44 Rear Crank Shaft Seal 1 Unit $49.94 Discount -$340.03 Sub $1,424.51 IMS Bearing Retrofit Remove all needed components to extract failing / problematic IMS bearing. Install the new bearing and tension as specified. Labor $385.00 Intermed. Shaft Brg. Set Dual Row Bearing 1 Unit $1,228.21 Engine Block Camshaft Tensioner Gasket 2 Unit $6.16 CAM PLUG 4 Unit $108.96 Super Magnet Aluminum Drian Plug 1 Unit $75.40 Discount -$77.00 Sub $1,726.73 Total Parts $1,673.96 Total Labor $2,004.13 Total Before Taxes & Miscellaneous Charges $3,678.09 Shop Supplies $100.00 Canadian Goods and Services Tax (GST) 5 % $188.90 Grand Total $3,966.99 Total discounts applied is $501.03

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All they could tell me is that the serial number of the new engine corresponds to a 1999. And yes, I plan to reach out to Calgary. I have a quote from another indie here as well, but they are not certified installers. So I have one opinion that maybe just have them drop the sump and do an inspection and see from there?

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^^ As stated in my post that you quoted: " he obviously has to make a reasonable mark-up of around 30-35% on his cost for parts, but not some inflated "list price" " Go back and read it again - they had separate labor quotes for each phase of the job - that's what I was referencing. That fact that I missed that the quote was in Canadian Dollars rendered my argument moot. In case you didn't notice the price in Canadian $ = equals exactly what I said it should in US $

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yeah ... but its still $5500 for me regardless of exchange rate ... I will do it if it needs doing and am prepared to do so. But geez ...

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They had separate quotes because it is separate jobs. they just overlap each other. The first part is to remove the transmission and replace the seal (1700.00). that job does not include anything with the IMS. Once the trans and engine are separated they are charging 539.00 additional to lock the timing, remove the IMS bearing and install the solution kit. This is a standard practice and is no way unreasonable.

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That's unfortunately what makes these decisions difficult. The repair technically doesn't need to be done. It's all maintenance. You could drive the car for the next 10 years and never have an IMS issue. It could fail tomorrow. It's all just a game of risk.

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Thank-you for the clarification on this. Helps alot!

Reasonable price based on what I saw when I looked into the solution for mine. They're authorized and warrant the work. That means they've been properly trained at Cleveland Georgia Institute of Porsche Technology (also known at Raby University). Your prequal will be done properly.

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It's not "separate jobs" once the engine and transmission are out. A $1700.00 quote for a RMS is ridiculous unless that's the only job they're doing - which would be ridiculous in and of itself. Parse it any way you like - it looks like BS to me. It looks like it's just a way to get to a bigger number at the bottom line - this was the point of my original post, as the looked to be $1-1.5k too high. Once I realized that the original quote was in Can.$ it actually made sense... (I still don't believe quoting the RMS as a "stand alone" job is on the up&up though... it's clearly a "while we're in there"...) It would have made more sense if they had the big labor # with the IMSS, and added a 1/2 hr for the RMS... The numbers add up the same - just looks cheesy to me.

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This is important, go look at your engine serial number and see if it has an AT in it.

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Thats the whole point. Porsche NEVER approved replacing the IMS bearing on its own. Porsche took the stand point of it is not a serviceable part and should only be serviced with the IMS shaft. Which is why you don't find IMS bearing labor in the labor guides. So any shop is going to write the order as close as they can. the way to do that would be to write the labor for the RMS and then add the additional labor to do the IMS bear as a "while we're in there". The OP has a tip tronic car which requires the engine and trans to come out. That is why the labor is so much more to do this job than most of us are use to seeing as most of us own 6 speed cars. You are looking at this wrong - no one is stating the RMS is a stand alone job. Its the root of the job. If the OP wanted to do the IMS and no RMS the shop that quoted the job would charge labor for R&R the trans and flexplate / flywheel then add on additional few hours for the IMS Solution install. It would change the wording but NOT the labor. A $1700.00 quote for a RMS is ridiculous unless that's the only job they're doing - which would be ridiculous in and of itself ----The $1700.00 INCLUDES PULLING THE TRANS AND ENGINE!

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^^^ Uh.... that's a stretch at best - this is not a Porsche dealer, and these retrofits have been being done for many years now - no reason to follow some "manufacturers guidelines" - especially when in fact they don't have any. The guy is a "Certified IMSB retrofit" installer he knows exactly what the bearing retrofit entails, and exactly what the RMS replacement entails - there's no good reason to write it like that in my mind. I understand what you're saying but I don't agree that it's the right way to quote the job (in the name of honesty/transparency). Lets agree to disagree on this one as I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin.

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We are. But i can tell you that this is the industry standard. All shops use the published labor guides. Some times the shop wins by doing so, so times the lose. The idea of the Labor guide is so pricing is uniform and fair. Independent companies write these guides. Shops just have to go by them. I can't tell you how many times i have done an 8 hour job in 3 hours. But in turn i have had many times were a 5 hour job takes 9. Fair depends on which side of the table you are on when it happens. Just think, if a shop see's this the way you do in this instance and gives you a major discount, would you be ok if the next job they charged you double because something went wrong or it was harder than they expected?

Also, don't forget, Jim went in and got the IMSS quote first and the RMS was added after he thought about it since they where already going to be in there. This is what I read in another thread if I'm not mistaken. This may all be a waste of time if he has a factory replacement and the big bearing.

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I have no way of knowing, unfortunately, what IMS is in the car ... I would assume that it had the RMS done at the time of the engine change, but I don't have confirmation of that. As for the engine, if I remember right, there was no AT in the serial number. I looked last month. I'll look again later. It was a thread on here that made me go look and have Porsche look into it. That is how I found out the engine was replaced. It was done in 2015, I think. And considering that they said my new serial number corresponds to a 99, I just assumed that meant I have a used engine in the car with the dual row.

why do I have a headache, after reading all of this?

Haha - but I appreciate the info being given, so thanks. I got another quote just now from another indie, but they are not certified. They are charging $5400. So I just have to accept this is the cost. Now I have to decide if I want to do it or save it.

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If it was a factory replacement done in 2015, I'd bet my house it has the large bearing and should have an AT in the serial number. Or, someone threw in a used motor from another 99 and your mileage is unknown.

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Because you dont enjoy a friendly debate

^^ Agreed... it actually happened to me just this past week. Unfortunately for me I spent 10 hrs. at the shop waiting for my car. In this case they took a beating on the job, but I also felt like I paid more than I should have - I paid $650 for what should have been a $300-$400 (mount two tires, install bump-steer tie rod ends [I supplied them] and do an alignment) job. Plus, I lost a full day of work for what should have been 3 or 4 hrs (what they quoted). It's my feeling that had they really known what they were doing (I had the car there for them to look at a week and a half prior) they wouldn't have had the problems that they had. I also believe that the "labor guides" favor the shops over the consumers - they figure in extra time for things like broken parts, stripped fasteners etc. It's also my experience that when a shop/mechanic does screw something up or miscalculate, it's not uncommon for them to find something else that "has to be fixed"(not our fault) in order to finish the job. Look, I agree and believe that any business deserves to make a reasonable profit. I also think that there are way too many incompetent businesses that leave customers holding the bag for their incompetence. Generally speaking this is why I do everything I can in my own garage - mounting tires and alignments don't fall within my purview... ** Apologies for hijacking this thread

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I remember that there was no AT, because I specifically looked for that. All the same, I'll look again, though afterwork.

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You could say that. But you'd be wrong. If there is no "AT", you likely have the used engine from a '99 that you thought you had. I'm no expert, but I would take this a little slower. There are some analytical steps that can be taken to inspect the engine and get a better idea of its needs. I'd start with a good session with a Durametric. Check cam deviation, power balance (contribution?), and the other basic readings. An oil analysis, a filter and sump plate inspection would be in order. Scoping the bores would also be nice, if the shop can handle it. In other words; just have the pre-qualification performed. There are more trouble areas beyond the IMSB. Timing chains and tensioners are probably close to their replacement interval. I think you are uncertain of the actual mileage of your engine, correct? A good inspection is a reasonable idea. See if there is a legitimate reason to drop the engine, to begin with. I wouldn't be so quick to do so until I knew what is good and what might not be so good. Hell. I just converted your 170,000 km, to real units. You've got a pup.

^Yup!

I think the dealer is a giving you good advice. The early bearing has a 1% fail rate IIRC. So dropping $5k to avoid a 1% risk on a car that is only worth what, around $16k? Doesn't seem worth it.

Thanks everyone. This is good advice. My serial number for the engine is M96/0166X01049 I was off. The new engine was put in February of 2017 when it had 139 000 km, not 90 000. That corresponds to a 1999 Carrera 2 car. So itdefinitely had a used engine put in the car. I will take your advice and do a diagnostics to and in depth inspection to see if there are any apparent troublong issues.

I'd just drive it. You're talking about putting 5k CAD into a 15k CAD car. At the end of that you'll still have a high 'ish mile mk1 vert w a tip trans. I'm not slagging your car - if it's what you want, all the power to you. If however you think that you are adding resale value to the car, I'd say you won't get that back. If it was a manual car, I might justify it if i was doing a clutch change too. I'd gamble that an early dual row motor that's done fine for 170k kms would keep ticking along for a few more. Do diligent maintenance (frequent oil changes), and enjoy it.

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I know you're considering the financial weight of doing all this engine work and I'm sure you've considered all the options. You and your wife have put your every bit of your hearts into this unique car. The work and detail you've put in the interior is on the professional level. I would say better than what the factory could offered. Your work wasn't rushed or cheap looking, but complements the car. The way it boils down is this... it doesn't really matter what anyone on the forums thinks. Its a matter between you and your wife. It would seem like the car is special and now you're at the fork in the road. I wish you well with the next steps.

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So was the mileage unknown with the replacement? I think just doing the full IMSB prequal for now is the smart move, then take it from there.

Yes mileage is unknown. I'm going to try and contact the previous owner and see if i can get more info. But you guys convinced me to do a diagnostics and internal inspection and leave it at that unless it shows something. I am prepared to do IMS and whatever else it needs. She wants to keep this car, so resale value is not a consideration. I'll check a few shops in Calgary too just in case. Thanks for the compliments, Nutty Professor. Always nice to get compliments on our work. Think we spent $800 on materials to do the interior and another 500 for the glove box dash and door insert panels.

I'll second Nutty's comments on the interior work your wife and you have produced. Great stuff! Hope all goes well as you share the journey. Keep your stick on the ice.

These debates over mntce. costs are unfortunate. While no one wishes to be over-charged, I am reminded of a famous old quote, to wit: John C. (Cash) Penny, "I have no quarrel with he who charges less as he alone knows what his product is worth." relinuca

OK, looking to book the car in to get the inspection done. They will do a bore scope. They said it was fine to do it through the spark plugs, but will do it from the sump for an extra cost. Will check for codes for cam deviation. Check oil filter (easy check, obviously) and compression test. Cost me $500 - $600 cdn.

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Make sure to have a UOA done, and gathered the right way. This will be vital in tracking the health of your engine. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...7&&FORM=VRDGAR

" They will do a bore scope. They said it was fine to do it through the spark plugs, but will do it from the sump for an extra cost." This isn't really true... If it's early in the scoring it'll most likely be in the lower portion of the bank 2 cylinders (4,5,6). This area is obscured by the piston even at the bottom of the stroke. Take a look at the Renn-Vision bore scoring video's. Regarding cost; I think the only time you're going to see a "cheaper" price is if it's given by someone who doesn't know what they're getting into - you don't really want them working on your car. If that's the case you'be better off doing it yourself...