Drove my first Porsche today.

A guy at work has a nicely optioned 1999 996 and while talking this morning he offered me a drive. Smooth is the first word that comes to mind, though I was surprised (pleasantly) by the amount of motion that translates through the chassis from the engine. The side to side motion is very apparent. The car didn't feel fast, not nearly as fast as my Subaru (though I am sure that it is faster). That was the smoothness I was referring to. I had been considering a 1999 996 in a year or so depending on finances. This drive put me over the top, it is such a nice car that I could live with for year to come. Just thought I would share this with you.

My wife would not drive my car for about six months despite my encouragement to do so. Then when she did, her strongest impression is smoothness. I find this a bit strange because I focus on the how nimble and controllable the handling is (something you were not likely to experience to any great degree driving your friend's car) and power. Anyway, there is much more than smoothness at work here. Just wait until you can control just the right amount of oversteer in a sweeping corner with your right foot. Magic.

If you have the right mods, your WRX may very well be quicker (acceleration). However it is unlikely that you have done enough to make it faster (top speed) or handle better. Additionally, turbo'd cars can sometimes have the illusion of being faster because they provide that big shove when boost arrives while the 996 is very powerful but it's power delivery is much more linear (an advantage on the track). The handling characteristics you mentioned for the 996 don't sound quite right to me (possibly worn shocks??). A 996 should handle much more crisply than any WRX (including the STI) that I have driven. Good luck with your search. If you decide to buy one I predict you'll love it!!

I have had a lust for Pcars since I was a small boy. I now find my self in a place that I could own one... (Provided a little financial discipline). Driving that car has helped me to put aside other �wants� and focus on a more complete package, the Porsche.

Hope you can own some of the magic soon...

Every mans's dream. Like you, I've reached a point in my life where a pcar is within reach...to the point of almost tasting it. Which particular model where you looking at?? They come in so many flavors so I suggest you sample as many of them as possible (this is the fun part). I've testdriven 993s, 996s, C2s, C4s, Boxsters, Caymans but have yet to drive a TT which I plan to do prior to pulling the trigger. My personal preference is the widebodied C4S and TT. I was about to flop down the $$$ for an 02 C4S but this great board convinced me that I owe it to myself to at least testdrive the Turbo, then decide (since the Turbo market is softening...$5k to $10K more than the C4S). Let the quest begin!!!!!!!

for the bang-per-buck, 966 is hard to beat. i offered "test-drive" to 2 of my friends, and let's just say they are hooked!

When did they make the 966?!? Haven't heard of that model before... There was a 966 spyder in 1991...pure racecar!!! Is that the one?!? http://www.supercars.net/garages/PeP/67v2.html Were the 996 called 966 in 1999 thru...?!? http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2199178 http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscrape.../180/id384.htm

typo. i mean 996.

WRX........if a 99 put you 'over the top', I think you'll be happy with any choice in the Pcar line, as MY99-01 are arguably the weakest 911 examples. As has been suggested, let yourself try the rest.......starting w/993 and definitely the Box if you want more feel (and something closer to a sports car). Good luck to ya....have fun looking.

I say go for the 964, the perfect starter Porsche. Anyone who can rack up almost 50 posts on a Porsche board without having ever driven one must be a force to be reckoned with - start with a classic.

why not G50 911? i am still hunting for it myself......

My first thoughts were just as some have suggested a nice clear 1987-89 3.2 a tank of a Porsche. and a great valuse and likely to gain in value over my ownership. I will not consider a 964, there is just to great a chance for problems with this line. The 993 is most likely my favorite (though I am liking the 997 a lot) however the later cars are gaining value so fast I fear that a nice late 993 will be outside my budget. (i'm thinking low 30's as for my budget) The early 996 just seemed to fit the budget and performance and drivability the best, though I will take a good long hard look at the 3.2'S. I think that I could do well on resale when I am ready to step up with a 3.2. I am not a big fan of the boxster, the straight line performance numbers are way to low for my tastes I think, but I should at least take a look to be sure... they might grow on me once driver. But in all truth the 911 is the car that resides in my heart. Thanks for the words guys

I went from a moded WRX to my '99 996. The WRX did feel quickerin a straight line and might have been the way it was modded . But the 996 is definetly faster, more refined power delivery and much more controlable at limit. There is no comparison in the handling department, even with different tires and shocks on the WRX the 996 clearly out handles it.

The issues on the 964 are so overblown it's incredible, with the possible exception of the early 1989 Carrera 4's. I drove mine for 2 years, with ZERO mechanical issues, absolutely ZERO. The 964 has more power, great tranny, good air con, and the classic shape, for $10k less than the equivalent 993. Any Porsche mag says the 964 is the sweet spot for entering 911 ownership. I never should have sold mine. Why is it you don't appreciate something until it's gone?

I am not sure about the side to side motion if this isn't worn engine mounts. I have noticed these cars come in 2 versions: the smooth ones and the rough ones. I drove about a dozen cars before buying one and noticed a these differences car to car. The smooth ones start up, run and idle smooth. The rev smoothly, but they never seem to pull that hard. The rough ones will idle a little rough once the warm up. They almost seem to lope like they have a bigger cam with a shake at idle like they have a cam in them. These ones have a good kick of torque from 2500-3000 rpms and pull a lot harder. The shake doesn't feel directional and hence why I think there may be an engine mount issues with that car. Speed in these cars is very deceptive. Due to the stable attitude of the chassis, the low amount of road and wind noise that penetrate the cabin; you seem to feel like you are always going slower than you think you are. This first time I drove one of these cars, I thought I was just driving 60 and I was actually going 80. 120 mph feels like 80 in most other cars.

I have a friend with a WRX Subie Wagon, he did about 1k worth of work and he keeps up with me. Those cars are BA. Remember tho, P's get faster and faster as you learn how to drive them.

Hmmm most of my reading so far has suggested that the order of reliability is: 964<996=993<1987-89 Carrera 3.2 Issues get to be known for a reason, there are more than there should be. I just read a thread on engine replacment on the 996's.... uuuuug scarey. I often wownder why Posche chargeing 70K for a car can't be top in class for reliability..... maybe they need some engineers from honda. This is my only concern about buying a P-car. Since I am not a wealthy man, I would hate to have a sudden 10-15K bill to fix a car...

Extended Warranty for peace of mind when I bought my 00' c4 I got 3 years 36000 bumper to bumper for $3000 from Fidelity Warranty. Right now I'm having the front diff replaced

If you keep an M96 based Pcar past warranty, I'd say Extended is not a bad move to cover that engine & drive line....that's just my opin (flip it or Extend it). Of course, don't put all Pcars in the same kettle........GT2, Turbo, GT3, 993, 964 are different breed.

I sold my 964 as well once the 993 came out and I've regretted it ever since. I had problems with my '96 since week #1. Exchanged it for a 996 and have been trouble-free for almost three years now; but when you consider how much money I lost going from a paid-for 964 through two more late model financed Porsches there is no comparison. Bang for buck the 964 can only be eclipsed by the 996TT or GT3.

Hmmm the prices on a 964 are within 6Kish of a 996, they are similar in weight and down by 50hp, while the 996 enjoys a stiffer chassis. I just don't see the advantage on paper at least. Then consider all of the known trouble areas on the 964 I just can't see getting into one and sleeping well at night.

Nothing wrong with buying a 2000 Boxster or Boxster S for your 1st Porshce. This way you can afford problems you may have. If you buy a Porsche (as well as many other exotics) you have to understand, it's NOT a Honda and requires more attention. Porsche, for what it is, is the most reliable and best daily driver out of all the exotics.

I will look at the Boxster, but from what I know they are way down on power to me. At least the 996 is at the same level as my subaru in acceleration, though both a 996 and 987 will kill it in the turns. Plus the 996 rear seat though small, can still allow my whole family to enjoy a drive.

If you need the rear seat....forget the Box...it is a "sports car". As a side to the comment about turns......Boxsters are a hoot.

Yea, but brute acceleration still makes me

Do you have an STI? That WILL, infact stick with a 911 in acceleration. Otherwise, a NON STI WRX is about as fast as a Boxster S.

Not without mods it won't. Sure the STI has 300 hp, but it's heavy and the AWD drivetrain produces more parasitic loss. Additionally, in my experience driving an STI it loses a lot of steam after 100 mph (not super aerodynamic and it seems to be geared for lower speed acceleration). As speeds increase a 996 performance advantage only gets larger. The thing about driving a WRX or an STI vs. a 986 or 996 is the way they develop power. In my experience driving the WRX and the STI they feel faster than they really are because of the boost and the power delivery. On the other hand the M96 motor in the Porsches is a much more linear motor (power wise). As a result they feel a little slower than they really are. Don't believe me? Look up some magazine test of all three cars. Don't only look at 0-60 as the AWD Subbies can get off the line quick. Look at 1/4 mile and 0-130 times. Also look at 5-60 times as this is a better measure of real world off the line acceleration as it minimizes traction differences. If you look at these figures the Porsches are just plain quicker and faster stock vs stock. A 3.4 996 is a low 13 second car and the 3.6 is a high 12 second car. I have never seen a review of the STI breaking 13 seconds in the 1/4. An STI can use AWD to claw to 60 in under 5 seconds like the 996, however it's 5-60 mph time is around 6.4 seconds vs 5.5 for the 996. 0-130 a 3.4 996 can get there in around 21 seconds while a STI takes over 24 seconds. Throw in some corners and it gets even uglier for the Subies....

My Porsche 911 dream started in 1991. I was reading a Road & Track and they had a cool article about "Getting into a 911". At that time, they said a 1987 was a great value. $13k. As my career progressed with my income, I went up to the 964. An awesome car. Career progression, then I was looking at a 993. I went to the local exotic used car dealer and test drove an S2. Then I thought about it a bit and looked at the 996. The interior sold me. They finally updated it to something that I could really enjoy as a daily driver. I still want to add that 964 RS America, or a 964 C4 to my garage, but I love what I have now. If you are patient and save up, you can get into what you really want. You are looking at low 30s. I�ll bet if you looked long and hard you can get that 996 for that price or close to it. Get a warranty too. I really am not a fan of them, but after having to get a new engine, the $2700 saved me from spending $9000. If you get a Boxster, you will always regret not getting the 911, even though the Boxster is a great car. Keep the Scooby if you can, fun cars and �cheap� to upgrade (compared to a 996).

Run a Boxster through some twisties and see if that also makes you It is worth checking out the mid-engined Boxster S at least. In terms of acceleration, it is not as fast as a 996, but a lightly optioned Boxster S (especially if put on a diet) will very close to a heavily optioned 996 (even moreso the heavier variants). If you need those rear seats, though, drive one for the helluvit, then pass.

I agree

My subaru isn't a WRX or an STi really. It is an older Impreza with a lightly modded WRX motor. I would guess 250-270CHP, in a sub 2800lb car. 1/4 13.60@99.5 with a very safe ECU tune, stock turbo, IC still. Only running 1bar, it is a fun peppy little car. I think the 996 will fit my needs best, but I am quite concerned with Porsche's inability to make a motor that holds together. I have seen/heard/read way to much about motor failures... not something I would expect from such an automotive name, and not for so many model years.

Inability to make a motor that holds together..... Hmmmm.... sounds like hyperbole to me. How many 150,000+ miles Porsche motors are out there being THRASHED on the track weekend after weekend? Lots. How many M96 motors have been built? Lots and lots. Comparing motors with specific outputs of well over 80hp/liter to economy car motors is a somewhat off the mark as well.

996 engines

The article posted above is a good one. I believe that the water cooled flat sixes are excellent and reliable motors overall. "Issues" are well over-blown on the internet and you will get a much better feel for it by talking with actual owners (such as at PCA events). Having a Subaru Impreza, you surely must have read the endless tales of doom concerning the transmission. Reality is that a small number of people do have issues, and the tranny is perhaps the weakest link in the WRX drivetrain, but overall, most WRXs are great, reliable cars. Don't let internet negativity talk you out of good cars! Dig on pretty much any car and you will dig up dirt. There are always some problems, and that is what you normally hear of.

Good grief with this guy. Porsche's ain't cheap - not to buy, not to run. You take risks with any car, and every car has issues. You said the difference between a 964 and a 996 is 6 grand - maybe for a very high mileage 996 and a very low mileage 964, but for cars of the same mileage, the difference is at least 10 grand, if not more. If you want a 996 with an extended warranty, be prepared to pay a lot more. If you don't have a budget for a decent 996, then your only Porsche option is either a Boxter or an air cooled 911. Every one of those cars has issues too.

I would also say that the older cars are more expensive to maintain. Their service intervals are shorter and Porsche's (like any other car) require more TLC with age.

If you are talking about the 2.5 liter engine that puts out 165BPH and you are getting up to 270BPH, I would call that more than lightly modded. You must have a SC on that puppy. Anyhow, your car would be whoopin' WRX's. What year is your car and wt\h do you have in that thing??? 13-6 is amazing!!!

I understand that a used car of any sort will have issues. I also know that the "996 engine issues" are reported to be overhyped. I would love to see some real world numbers as to how many cars have been effected by these "rare" conditions. If I am going to spend 30K+ on a car I want to get my money's worth. I am not a wealthy guy so I want a quility product. I don't think that is unreasonable, I do think it unreasonable for Porsche to expect people to accept a car that wears harder and costs more to maintain. To many other brands have narrowed or passed Porsche performance levels for far less money and Porsche can not sell cars on name alone forever. I am a big Porsche fan, I love the cars, but I am also being realistic. As for my car it is running a nearly stock 2002 USDM WRX motor, the old N/A 2.2 135bhp was tossed. I am running approx 1bar on a very safe ECU tune, a catless up pipe, and a catted down pipe with an HKS cat back. Still running a stock turbo, which I plan to change out to a USDM STi VF39 with big injectors and a FMIC. I have seen a number of these cars running a set up like that put 270AWHP to the wheels. Nothing like nearly 400BHP and AWD and under 2800lb package... I would expect to be able to run 0-60 in under 5 and 1/4 low 12's@110ish. I don't mean to sound like a Porsche basher, but I am trying to play devils advocate a bit here guys. I should be able to make 330-360BHP with that set up.

I'm relatively new to rennlist and did not want to post; but, being cantekerous today in having to work and the gov. being off, I decided to add my 2 cents I think you are comparing apples to oranges. I also think that you are perhaps a bit too focused on numbers and a porsche is not the car for you. There are ALWAYS going to be faster cars than the 996 in terms of performance. The E46 M3 is faster and about the same price, and, has far more utility. The C6/C5 Z06 -- performance-wise, is a great buy. The STi/WRX/Evo -- again, great buys for performance. You sound like you care about being the fastest, or at least, one of the fastest cars on the road. You have to remember, you are buying a 'USED' car, which means, it will be slower than 'newer' cars, e.g., IS350, etc. Just like BMW E46 M3 owners worry that the new E92 M3 will not have enough power -- it's NOT about power. It's about the overall architecture that you have to examine. I think as you grow older, which it seems you are sub-30 age, that you will find out it's not all about speed. Put it in perspective, I owned a 420 rwhp E36 M3 when I was younger. The car would blow the doors off the E46 M3. Heck, it blew the doors off any p-car. But, I eventually sold it and bought an E46 M3, and, after owning various cars, ended up with my first p-car at 31. Now, being 32, I am upgrading a bit to the 02+ 996. I too, thought like you, why would someone spend $40-70K for a p-car, when I could have something that was just as fast, costs less to maintain, and, still fairly luxurious, e.g., E46 M3. However, the lines of the p-car drew me, the feel of the car drew me, etc. I've done some amateur club-racing, autocross, etc., and this is a time-tested truth, put a good driver behind a miata and a mediocre driver behind a 996/E46 M3 -- on a technical course (not VIR), the miata driver will win. It's not about power; but, how you use it. Do not mean to lecture; but, I know exactly where you are coming from since I had very similar thought processes. Owning a p-car is different IMO, each day you come to like the car more and more. The other cars I've owned, M3's, M5's, etc ... nice cars when I bought them, liked them -- but, did not put the same kind of shyt-eating grin on my face each time I drove the car. The p-car does that, for me at least.

Oh, thought you (and other rennlisters) might enjoy this as well ... E92 M3 vs. E46 M3. Not 100% sure if it is the real E92 M3 that will be coming out late 2007 as MY08 model; but, most are confirming it is. Some foul language and the kids like to say 'WOW' a lot http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32653 Although the E92 M3 would destroy my 996 -- since it just absolutely sounds good and it appears to walk the E46 M3 with ease, doesn't mean I would run out and trade the p-car for the E92 M3, or feel jilted that my p-car is slower. Although, would not mind 'adding' the car to the p-car If I were you, I would seriously consider a 2001-2002 M3. They are around the 996 99-00 price range you are looking at (if not slightly cheaper by $2-4K), and has far more utility for a younger person. I loved my E46 M3 -- great blend of luxury and performance. The M3 is a 'good' car -- not a great one; but, it does all things fairly good!

I also came from the Japanese sports car world where I was never really concerned about reliability since, well, they were all assumed to be relatively reliable. I came from building a s14.5 (sr20det w/BBGT3037 turbo and pretty much any mod you can think of + a s15 front) to a Supra TT and then onto a modded G35c 6MT. It seems that in your initial research, you would think the 996 engines are unreliable which I have found untrue (6 months of research and searching until I found my 02). Generally speaking these are super reliable cars. The only issues I really heard of were the coolant tanks and RMS issues. Even with RMS though, it's relatively cheap to fix if a few drops of oil really bothers you. Personally, my 02 doesn't have it but if it ever did, I'd probabaly just watch my oil level. I probably wouldn't throw a fit and call my car unreliable. As far as the $30K+ cars, what are some of the other ones you are considering? If you want something that's fairly rare, probably very reliable, and around the $30K ballpark, maybe take a look at a early year NSX...

nosoup4u - I understand what you are saying; I also understand that I could get a lot more bang for the buck with other cars. That isn't what I am looking for, I just want to make sure that I make a smart purchase. The only argument I made for power was when it was suggested that I look at Boxsters or older 964's. For me they are just a little to low in the power dept. I am in my early 30's and have had some fairly quick cars, but I now want something more than that. I just want to make sure that I am not walking into a mine field. I am not a wealthy man, and so the idea of having to drop 15K on a motor replacement does not settle well. I have no problem spending money on cars, but I prefer in my own time I understand that all used cars will wear, but I want to be sure I am buying the best I can get for my money. I have little interest in the E46 cars, they are nice, but just not for me. I do like the older E30 M3's but I don't want to get into one of those now. I have also looked at the NSX, as they can be had for similar costs and are fairly bulletproof. While they look exotic, they lack the elegant form of the 996. They are a Ferrari without the sex. But I still like them a great deal, and will be sure to look at them good and hard.

I have a slightly off-topic but subie related question. Thinking of getting a '04 WRX wagon (used) as a inexpensive car to take snowboarding. I've driven one and everytime I let off the gas it was very un-smooth and almost felt jerky, just from getting off gas. Is this a fault with this particular car or is this common with all wrxs?

If you are boost in first or second gear and drop off the gas quickly I could see if feeling kinda jerky... I am not sure if that is what you are talking about here.

Get an EVO.....I had a WRX, I now have an EVO as my ski vehicle w/toyo mud and snow proxes. The chassis and the overall drive quality and experience is better than the WRX.....my opinion only.

The EVO is a better performance car.... but the Scooby wagon is a better everyday car, for a lot less money.

I used to own a 95 NSX, and my coolant tank had a leak, and i had the cam end seals and gallery plugs leak.. a $1700 job... sounds just like the 996... not a big deal really

The 964 has more power that what??? Not a 993, or 996. Plus the 964 has the ugliest tail lights ever and bumpers. The 964 is the most boring 911 ever with the 996 being a close second. If you want a good first 911, get a 78-83 911 sc, or an 84-88 911 carerra. I have always been told to avoid the 964 and 2.7 911's from 74-77. I had a 74 targa, and it was a fun car, but it developed the head stud problem and that is an expensive fix. I have never heard anyone say that the 964 is the sweet spot for entering porsche ownership.

Well that's because internet hype has a way of prolonging the hysteria for problems that have long since been sorted out. Heck, I happen to own a 2000 996 and a 1984 Carrera and I love them both, but I've been around enough 964's to know that those cars are better in every way than my old Carrera (other than weight). As for 996 engine issues, I have a 46,000 mile, six year old 996 and I'm happy as can be with it. I use the car as my daily driver and occasionally track it. The car runs perfectly. The engine is, and always has been, dry. I've thrashed the heck out of it at Willow Springs raceway and it didn't complain one bit. And mine's the dreaded 3.4 (gasp). The later 3.6 has had the RMS issues sorted, so if you want a little more peace of mind, pick up a 2002 or later 996.

There's so much bad info in this thread I don't know where to start. I hope if anyone's serious about buying, they're getting their info from various sources and not just an internet forum.

Well said.