How to improve sound?

I have a 1999 C2 cab with PCM&CD-changer. I don't really want to rip out the PCM or the changer. Does it work to replace the amp and if so, with what? and what about the speaker elements? Thanks, Magnus

Do a search on 'stereo' and you'll find literally hundreds of posts with modifications that guys did to their cars' sound systems.

The speakers are so small in the car that replacing them does not do much. Best option is to put in subwoofers. To get overal better sound do the complete system and you will be spending a couple of bucks to do that.

I have a Kenwood head unit and Infiniti Basslink in my car. I kept the factory speakers, amp, and changer in place. Of course, the CD changer is not used anymore but I was able to hook the head unit up to the factory amp. An installer that worked for Circuit City told me which adapters to use to retain the factory amp and also a way to hook up the sub even though the head unit did not have a sub "out". It was almost all plug and play. People keep spending tons of money on those Focals speakers (I dont know why) but do not change the God awful sounding CDR-220, it is the head unit that makes 99% of the sound. Start with the head unit first, then speakers next.

Tippy has a point. I swapped out the CDR-220 with an Alpine and couldn't believe how much better things sounded straight away. Still a little weak in the low end but a major improvement nevertheless.

I changed speakers while keeping the factory grills. Dramatically improved mid range and highs, but no bass. Improved, but the sound is still pretty underwhelming.

DCP, what speakers did you use, I guess you found some with similar characteristics as the factory ones?

The biggest problem with the 911 sound system - OE or aftermarket is that there is no provision for reproducing the lower octaves of music. If all you do is add a powered sub to the system - amplified Bazooka, Infinity BassLink, etc, the difference is night and day. You could put in the best head unit and dash speakers the world has ever known, but if you leave out 20-30% of the lower end of frequency spectrum, it still sounds like crap. Try watching a movie on your home theater system without the sub playing and you'll understand what I mean. It's all about the fundamentals. First step - get your system to play FULL RANGE Second step - fine tune the overall sound quality I spent the last 18 years in the automotive audio business from retail to wholesale to product design and manufacture. I've worked on dozens of 911's and the acoustics are all similar regardless of year. Drop in a powered sub and you'll thank me later.

I had a stereo shop pick them. They used two brands. One set was Focals. I don't remember the other, but I might still have the box at home. I will look. I have a MOST system, and they told me that they added resisters to get the speakers to work correctly.

What's the cheapest most invisible way to solve this bass response problem?

Here's what I did: Part 1 Part 2 Replaced the amp and speakers, the difference is night and day.

Add an amplified Bazooka. In your car there are only 2 places you can put it. Option A - In the front under the hood as far forward as possible firing sideways - use at least an 8" model, preferably the BTA8200 or a BT8014 non-amplified with an outboard amp (150-250watt mono sub amp). This location may seem a bit odd, but with the larger tube and more power, the sound gets through to the passenger compartment. The unit stays hidden and passengers won't be able to figure out how you get big bass sound from the little front speakers. Option B - On the lower portion of the package tray directly behind the rear seats on the passenger side firing towards the passenger side window. The 6" model will suffice and give you a surprising amount of bass. If you go amplified, use the BTA6100. For non-amplified use the BT6014 with a 150watt mono subwoofer amp. This location, being in the passenger compartment, will be more efficient, however it will also be visible. The tubes are painted black so if you have a black interior, it will blend in. If you want to dress it up, there are several options - automotive paint finish to match the cars exterior, upholstered in leather or suede to match the cars exterior, or wrap in carbon fiber (real or simulated). Either one of these options should be around $300-$350 installed (not including any custom finish on the cabinet like I mentioned) When I worked for Bazooka, I designed one that looked like a NOS bottle for all the Fast & Furious ricers...that one's always fun to have...the reactions are priceless! (I've got one on my golf cart). -pic below- On a related note, these options will be the lightest options you can use for a sub solution. The cabinets are made from an ABS/PVC composite so the only legitimate added weight is that of the actual speaker inside the cabinet. Adding a faberglass or wooden sub box will be considerably heavier.

Is there a way to do this with a stock MOST system?

All the amplified sub needs is an input signal (speaker level or RCA level), power, ground, and a turn on wire (manual switch or signal from source unit). It should interface with any system, it's just a matter of where to connect - at the source, at the speakers, or at the amp.

TBH: I was looking at your idea. Seems pretty good and cost effective. I apologize in advance for the stupid questions which follow. I noticed that several listings have an optional remote for the sub to adjust output. Does the head unit not control the amplified sub? Whether it does or not, is the remote unit a good idea, or is it really only necessary if you like bone rattling bass but need to turn in down once in a while (like my teenagers)?

The level adjustment is misleading. It is more a level matching device. In otherwords, you can adjust how much of the sub is introduced to the music. The volume will be linear and the sub will change with that volume. If you turn the **** UP you will get more bass at all volumes, if you turn the **** down, you'll get less bass at all volumes. This add-on is not necessary and there is a level match **** on the body of the unit. On any amplifier it is called the "gain" or "input sensitivity" ****. If your system is set up correctly, you shouldn't need to constantly adjust anything but the volume. Your second assumption is correct...if you're not rocking out and want to listen to a ball game without the announcers voice rattling your eyeballs, turn the sub's sensitivity down.

I am no audiophile but I have to tell you the Bose option does not sound that bad.

You know what they say..."no highs, no lows...must be BOSE" Seriously though, if you didn't have the BOSE system already installed from the factory, there is no cost effective way or legitimate reason to try and add it. Putting in a well designed aftermarket system is easier and less expensive.

OK...very direct question. If one were to upgrade the sound with out changing the head unit, but just speakers, amps, cross-over and sub...what should one expect to pay?

Nailed it right on the head, they still use paper woofers. But I still think they make incredible sound as long as you do not push them.

Geez! I saw the header for this thread and the first thing I thought was "GHL Exhaust" X2

I spent around $1500, but did the install myself. Figure around $400-$500 for the install and more if you want a custom sub ( I just replaced the stock subs ).

Thanks Rob.

Hey, don't generically knock paper cones. The only real drawback is their ability to withstand direct sunlight abuse, however, some of the world's best sub manufacturers (home or car) use paper pulp cones treated with various coatings...FOCAL - prime example

$1500 is a good round number to budget. This should get you decent front/rear speakers, sub and multi channel amp w/ install and basic cables. Just make sure you bring it to a shop that knows how to take care of P cars. Like many european cars, the interiors were not designed to be taken apart after leaving the factory so finding a knowledgable installer is critical to insure that your car isn't put back together with extra parts left over or worse - creaks and rattles!

Thanks again. I suspect if I pull the trigger, I will also add a nice NAV system as well, so that will likely double the price. Just don't know if I want to drop the money into my '00 996 given I will likely trade up next year... What to do...what to do...

Focal uses kevlar on their higher end speakers, impregnated paper on the cheaper ones. I cant think of one high-end speaker company who uses paper, that is why Bose is so disrespected. I have had several brochures of speakers that are high end that cost more than replacing our motors and they blast manufacturers of paper cones. Impregnated paper cant hold up to cone distortion like kevlar, carbon-fiber, polypropylene, polymers, and such.

Tippy, I spent the last 18 years in the audio biz. Paper cones, musically speaking, are superb sounding. From a physical abuse viewpoint, there are better materials out there, but in the end a paper cone tends to be more efficient and offer less musical coloration than other common materials (unless you're talking exotic materials - ceramic composites, FOCAL's W cone, B&W's Rohacell) . Look at the prosound industry and you'll see a lot of paper cones. I'm not advocating them, i'm just saying don't blindly discredit their performance. On a related note, in the harsh automotive environment (heat, cold, UV, etc), there are other materials that will outlast paper - poly, aluminum, kevlar...; but they are musically inferior. If you look at the chart below, you'll see that paper is more rigid than poly, aluminum, or woven fiber cones (BTW - this is from FOCAL's website). Rigidity is a VERY important part of what makes a woofer "woof". Sorry about being OT, just wanted you to know "the rest of the story"

No. Bose is so disrespected because they are a bad value (value=performance/dollar). Their "flagship" model (the 901) is essentially 9 midranges and an EQ box which boosts bass and treble in an attempt to coax out something similiar to full range sound. This is the biggest example of their attempts to sell the public on gimmicks instead of high fidelity. Pick any price point in the Bose lineup and you will be able find a better sounding speaker. Regarding paper, I disagree. There are a number of manufacturers who use paper of more commonly some type of impregnated paper to deliver great sound. JBL and Klipsch come to mind for using paper on their highest-end products (and strangely enough, polypropylene and such in their low end models). Ultimately it is not the material that is most important, rather how well the characteristics of the material are properly utiliized to deliver the product.

Ditto. That post was dead on. Thanks

Wow, Focal defies physics? Isnt aluminum stronger than paper with equal mass and weight? If aluminum is weaker or less rigid of equal mass and weight than paper of any shape, I totally stand corrected. I am a bass player and I use Hartke equipment. Hartke uses aluminum drivers and the sound is very brilliant (grand piano like), I always associated this with the aluminum cones. Hartke stated himself that he used aluminum because it distorted less than paper. This is based off my memory of about 16 years ago, maybe paper has come along way. We have totally hi-jacked this thread and I apologize.

True, aluminum is a stonger material than paper when speaking generically (i.e. I'd rather aluminum fenders instead of paper ones), however, there are resonance issues that aluminum has that paper doesn't. A resonance in a speaker cone adds coloration to the sound that isn't in the music material being played...just like in your grand piano statement. A piano string, which is also made of metal, is resonant. A well made paper cone will be more musically accurate than an aluminum cone at a similar price point. The nice thing about an aluminum cone speaker is that, if done right, the cone will become a heatsink for the voice coil of the speaker thus potentially extending the life of those parts by reducing their operating temperatures (the inside of a woofer motor will reach temperatures near 300 degrees when played hard). Every manufacturer has different feelings about their cone material, some legit, some marketing based. I've worked with paper, poly, kevlar, and aluminum. All of them have their strong points, however, in the end, it's all subjective based on what you like to hear when you listen to music.

TBH996 - I to agree, paper is warmer "sounding" than all other materials because the principal material is wood. You wouldnt want a metal enclosure for speakers, although metals may flex less than woods of the same thickness and rigidity is key to enclosures of high power. I agree with everything you have said except that high-end speaker companies use mostly paper, I am only talking sub-woofers, not mids. Then, you had posted what I believed was an inaccurate bar graph (not your data though). How can Focal say paper is over 4 X's more rigid than aluminum and about 8 X's more rigid than polypropylene. My definition of rigidity is: resistance to flex I am going to ask some engineers at work about Focal's graph. My whole point of posting initially was to say, it does not matter if you have put in the most high-end, brilliant sounding, and the highest clarity speaker ever made, it will not matter if the initial frequencies are all wrong for a good sound, prime example, the CDR-220. All midrange with no lows or highs. Perfect for talk radio though. Further adding, put money into the head unit first, this will be the best bang for the buck for the first go around of good sound and then concentrate on the speakers. I believe the head unit makes about an 80% + improvement of the sound in a 996. The factory speakers can be "Bose-d" up somewhat to make a decent sound (of course they will still sound a little weak compared to aftermarket). But of course, to truely top it off, you will need a good set of speakers. Initially, I would rather spend $300 on a mid-level head unit than $1500 for the high-end Focals. I guarantee the head unit change will undoubtely sound many times better than just the speaker change.

You can change the head unit 100 times. If you do not have a full range speaker set up, you still won't accurately hear full range sound. To be more specific, changing the head or the OE location speakers will still leave you short on sound quality. The first thing to do with any system, anywhere, anytime is to get it to play full range. In this scenario, that means adding a subwoofer. Period. End of discussion. Anything you add before attaining the ability to play full range will not allow you to benefit from the maximum potential of that component. The head unit may make your mids an highs sound a little better, but with no low end fundamentals, it's still gonna sound weak. Regarding cone rigidity, you need to widen your thought process and understand more of the details of speaker design. Go to this link and it'll clear up a lot of things. It lists the pros and cons of most common cone and surround materials. http://www.vmpsaudio.com/d-cones.htm

Yes, and I have agreed, to have the full range, you have to have speakers too, not just the head unit. I was saying I believe you will get more sound from a head unit than the speakers if just one or the other is changed. Yes again, regarding lows, I stated that I have an Infinity Basslink and you have to have a sub to round out the "spectrum". A third yes is that paper "sounds" better than other materials on the mids, but I would, like most manufacturers do, is use something more rigid than paper for a sub because I have seen woofers on a high speed film distort horribly when pushed beyond their limit. And a fourth yes, rigidity and strength are not the same. Rubber comes into mind, low rigidity but high tensile strength. The only thing I disagreed on was Focals' graph, it just doesnt add up to me. Until I understand why, my German hard-headedness is going to argue "no".