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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHBronze/Copper in Oil Galley
Leading reported evidence
Clean with no metallic "dust"
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
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Suggestion · Original poster
Oil has been very clean with no metallic "dust" to speak of.
Leading evidence: 'Clean with no metallic "dust"' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Clean with no metallic "dust"' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion
The ingound lifts do have the advantage of being out of the way when not in use, but are in the way when doing certain car repair operations.
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Suggestion
The engine will need to be completely taken apart to replace the bearings.
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Suggestion
The closest I have seen was one of our two post inground lifts, (one front/ one back), young tech was prepairing to do a simple oil change, raised the car on the lift, walked under to look at the drain plug ect, started walking to his tool box and the front post blew an oil line, the car hit him in the back as he was walking out from under it, knocking him into the wall.He w2as inches away from being crushed, and only suffered scraped back..
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Suggestion
The closest I have seen was one of our two post inground lifts, (one front/ one back), young tech was prepairing to do a simple oil change, raised the car on the lift, walked under to look at the drain plug ect, started walking to his tool box and the front post blew an oil line, the car hit him in the back as he was walking out from under it, knocking him into the wall.He w2as inches away from being crushed, and only suffered scraped back..
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Suggestion
The shop I worked for in the 90's that had 13 of them, started replacing two month for about 6 months untill all inground were replaced with above ground lifts.At first I hated the above ground lift, was always in the way of exiting the car when you pull on the lift, but much more out of the way for working under the car..
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Suggestion
Do yourself a favor and buy the tool - if you don�t, there�s a good chance you�ll be visiting the emergency room for stitches or worse (dirty oil is nasty stuff) which will cost you way more in the long run (not to mention pain & suffering)...
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Question for all the experts out there: What is bronze/copper in the bottom end of a 99 3.4 engine?
Been chasing a low oil pressure issue at warm idle. The oil pressure just "dropped" by a half bar, indicated, one afternoon and has remained so. Confirmed with manual pressure gauge, the dashboard indicated pressures match. The engine still has pressure, follows the appropriate pressure change ranges for cold, warming, in gear, etc. but the warm idle pressure is only ~0.6 bar.
Dropped the oil pan this weekend and found some pieces of of bronze/copper in the oil pan. Attached are some photos It is shaped in a large radius and has a curled over edge as if it should hold something.
Relevant info:
1999 with 107k on motor
IMS/RMS done at 85k two years ago
Been using 5w40 Castrol with Napa Gold filter (LN adapter)
New style oil bypass pressure spring/piston
Changed oil ~3 times in last 100miles, however first time dropping pan
Perfect curl as if to hold something
Shows a bit of the larger radius
Total pieces from oil sump
The black plastic pieces are most likely from your timing chain guides/rails. I don't think this engine should be started again. A lot is going on in there.
Thanks for the replies!
To my knowledge, the car has never been tracked. The pressure drop happened during regular driving and was a fairly instant thing. Was idling at a stop sign at 1.1 bar. While accelerating to the next stop sign, CEL flashed and when I stopped the gauge was only reading 0.6. Took it straight to my Indy. CEL was misfires on cylinders 5 and 2. Replaced all coilpacks and plugs (looked original) and did the AOS, starter cable, and starter while in there and the misfires have gone but the pressure remained low. No smoke and doesn't burn oil.
No black plastic that I've found. Was nearly exclusive to bronze/copper with a little bit of what could be gasket or perhaps rubber seal. There are some green pieces in that photo on the paper towel.
Wow! You've got one of the foremost M96 experts on the thread so I won't make any comments regarding the material. Rather, a few questions... Any noise(s) to correspond with the drop in oil pressure? Also, why 3 oil changes in the last 100 miles (even if the 100 is a typo and it should be 1000 - 3 changes is still alot - 10,000? That'd be a hell of a typo!). When doing these last 3 oil changes were you seeing copper/bronze "glitter" in the oil, hence the quick changes? It seems to me with all that junk in the sump, there would be more symptoms than the drop in oil pressure. Stop running that engine unless to want to do way more damage to it! Good luck
I think the blackness is just poor lighting in the photo, all those chips are a fairly uniform color.
No noticeable noise or performance drop was experienced. Only driven home from the shop and then around the block a few times to get up to temp. Oil has been very clean with no metallic "dust" to speak of.
I pulled the pan on this being the third change. Interval was:
Regular oil change
Change+60 miles when pressure drop happened
New oil change when installing updated bypass spring and piston assembly.
+10 miles to get to temp. +30 round trip to the shop for the service.
Now dropped the pan on this being the third change.
I have saved the previous oil filters and will investigate in them. Anyone have tips on cutting apart/disassembling an oil filter without introducing new shavings from cutting?
Listen to Jake, your mains are falling apart.
I've seen this in my own engine after coming home from the drag strip. Your main bearings are just about ready to spin. Mine were. If the engine is not knocking yet then count your blessings as the likelihood that the main bearings haven't yet spun is good and the engine is fixable (it won't be easy or cheap but at least it can be fixed). The engine will need to be completely taken apart to replace the bearings. Then need to clean it really well and see if anything else was damaged by the copper flakes.
I wouldn't run that engine anymore. There is a small chance your crank isn't toast right now but if you keep running it you'll likely score it.
That is a lot of not good stuff to find in your sump
Yeah probably, but I'm notorious for bleeding in the garage! All I need to do is open an engine hood and my knuckles start spontaneously bleeding. I could really cause some damage with tin snips, an oily filter and sharp metal. I might as well call the emergency clinic to tell them I'm on the way in before I even pickup the snips!
I cant imagine opening a metal filter with tin snips and not getting cut in the process. You have to remember, everything is covered with oil and it is SLIPPERY!!! Do yourself a favor and buy the tool - if you don�t, there�s a good chance you�ll be visiting the emergency room for stitches or worse (dirty oil is nasty stuff) which will cost you way more in the long run (not to mention pain & suffering)...
A chain wheel pipe cutter also works well. FWIW...
As said above:
Quit running the engine it ain't going to fix itself!
The only real source of that metal is bearings/bushings..
Parts you can pick up with your finger never mean its going to get better.
Thanks, great video.
Why isn't his a problem on 3.4? Smaller displacement so less stress on rod bearings?
Also, keeping oil cool seems to be important? Haven't seen many aftermarket oil coolers?
The in-ground single post air-hydraulic lift though. I haven't seen one of those in a new shop in decades, (must be an old shop with new cosmetics). Those things were notorious for leaking hydraulic oil. I worked under one from 70's to the 90's, we kept 2-3 55 gallon drums of hydraulic oil on hand (13 lifts), constantly repairing them. When the lift became about 5-10 gallons low it would jump the last foot or so(air instead of hydraulic fluid), sometimes launching the car into the air above the lift only to hopefully land back on the lift arms/pads!!! I much prefer the above ground 2 post electric/hydraulic/cable lifts..
It's a problem for all models of m96/m97 engine from 2.5 to 3.8. Keeping the sufficient non-aerated oil at the pickup is the first thing to take care of, followed by running better oil.
Knowing of Jake Raby as I do, I highly doubt he'd be walking around under a lift that was leaking any amount of fluid/oil. Just look at the shop - it's cleaner than many restaurant kitchens that I've seen. Regardless of your experience, I have to assume Jake's single post lift is just fine
Oh yes, I'm sure Jake's lifts are in tip top shape,(relax, I was not throwing shade on Jake)) I was just surprised to see that style.Most newer shops go with the above ground lifts due to less expensive, less maintenance, no EPA worries (ingound oil storage tanks).
The ingound lifts do have the advantage of being out of the way when not in use, but are in the way when doing certain car repair operations.
Rotary has been making the air/hydraulic inground lifts for over 70 years. I'm sure the lifts I worked under in the 70's - 90's were some of the first versions made. The dealership I worked for was in business before the T-Model was in production. They were a 100 year old company when I was there. We had 13 of these air over hydraulic lifts.
I have seen many cars fall from these lifts ( seen a few fall from above ground lifts also). never seen anyone hurt badly or killed though. The closest I have seen was one of our two post inground lifts, (one front/ one back), young tech was prepairing to do a simple oil change, raised the car on the lift, walked under to look at the drain plug ect, started walking to his tool box and the front post blew an oil line, the car hit him in the back as he was walking out from under it, knocking him into the wall.He w2as inches away from being crushed, and only suffered scraped back..
I hate lifts! They give me the creeps. The thought of thousands of pounds crushing you to a mere grease spot on the ground is scary!!! I guess they're a necessary evil. I don't have a fancy lift, but if I ever jack up my car, I use multiple jack stands and put my rims under the car as backup. Regarding the single post hydraulic lift in Jake's video, that one looks newer than the ones I remember in the old shops. Jake's has the 4-arm style. That would seem to work very well for Porsches. The ones I remember had ramps and you'd drive your car up on two tracks with a bump stop at the end.
I attempted to buy land that had a shop on the property. One of the major issues I had to overcome to secure the loan was to have an inspection to make sure there was never an in-ground lift and, if it did, to have an inspection done to prove it didn't leak. That's how often they leaked.
I don't even know if they even allow in-ground lifts in my state anymore. Like you said, the last time I saw them used was in the 90's.
I was just digging through some images that Jake had posted on some of the other forums and I could barely make out the model number on that lift. It says "SC-363". I google it and came up with this...
https://www.sviinternational.com/product/sc-363/
What do you think? Looks like the company designed it for Porsche 911. Makes sense why he'd want one then.
If that lift is indeed model SC-363, it was in production 2016, so less than 3 years old. It is the same design as the "old school" air/hydraulic single post lifts (with I'm sure much needed safety and sealing updates) that's been in use for 70 years, even says in there add "design that lasts more than a lifetime".
Seems that particular model has some options for arm/stands to fit into the Porsche specific lift points.Thats a nice plus.
I honestly didn't know these type of lifts were still being produced. The shops I know get rid of them and replace with above ground lifts when they get tired of repairing them.
The shop I worked for in the 90's that had 13 of them, started replacing two month for about 6 months untill all inground were replaced with above ground lifts.At first I hated the above ground lift, was always in the way of exiting the car when you pull on the lift, but much more out of the way for working under the car.. At the time I was a "driveability specialist" and worked on 10-15 cars a day, many of which didn't need to go into the air, so the lift was very annoying. But after I got used to it, was no big deal. The added safety and less maintenance was appreciated.
With that lift being so new ( If it's the SC-363) I could probably work under it, as long as I didn't have any "deja vu" moments !! lol
Sorry to the OP for getting off track...
This lift is 2 years old. It is an SC 363 by SVT.
It does not have an unground storage tank, and the entire unit is sealed inside a tube. It has 3 Viton seals, and it has never leaked anything. Yes, I installed it myself, too.
The design has mechanical locks that extend as it raises, that will not allow the hydraulics to fail, and drop the car.
I installed this lift at my training facility, for one major reason.. Because the car can be lifted up, and spun 360* with one finger, without any loss of security, or risk..
This allows us to have a circle of class attendees gather around a car, and see what we are working with.That has great benefits when 15 guys want to see something, and not be standing on top of each other.
That said, at the present the lift has an 300,000 dollar car sitting on it, and I am fine working underneath it.
The video was filmed at my R&D/ Training Facility, not at Flat 6.
The building that it's in was built 4 years ago with my own hands, from scratch. It's not an old building.
Why the hell does the modern human have to be so damn opinionated, and weigh in on things that are none of their business. Really?
It is air over hydraulic, with a sealed reservoir/ cylinder support.
Every class someone ends up buying one, once they see how efficient it is, and how it fits the Porsche lifting points so well.
Thank you everyone for your inputs! Here's to hoping the modern humans of this thread still have opinions!
I'm trying to weigh options right now. Admittedly this car still ran and drove great even the morning before I dropped the oil pan to diagnose. Body is near flawless, perfect soft-top, has the optional hard top, interior doesn't have a scratch or crack anywhere, very nice updated sound system, etc.
What would you all estimate a true selling price would be given the immediacy of split-case engine work?
$4-$9k. If I were you, I�d look for a Porsche short block or a used engine and spend the $10-$12k for a �cheap� rebuild or replacement, rather than sell as a roller.
