Turbocharging a Carrera

Hey guys, So I've been stuck at a dilemma for a while. When I stumbled upon my 996 I originally was going for a viper or m6. Fell in love with it and now don't want to get rid - but would love a bit of extra power. It's got a fair few gemballa mods, x51 kit, etc so in a way is quite unique. I'm also toying with some GT2 seats and a GT3 RS steering wheel as well as a double din kit to tweak the interior. Ultimately I wanted a viper / gallardo but I've fallen in love with the porsche the longer I have it and (controversially) love the 996 shape above the 997 and beyond.. So I'm faced with either trading in, or modding for something really unique and keeping it long term. So I'm contemplating turbocharging her if I keep long term. I've found a few threads and will keep searching but wondering if anyone has any experience or threads they know of? I'm keen to see 500-550bhp, but wondered how feasible it is? The engine has the usual x51 bits, extra rad, swirl pistons, second oil pump, Gemballa deep sump, exhaust, map etc etc, just wondered what I'd need to look at to see some reliability along with the power? Don't want to end up with something that's always in the garage afterall. It's just turned 55k miles so isn't too high on the mileage front. Of course the other option would be looking for a GT3 or turbo but the GT3 is Gallardo money and I'm not sold on the turbo. Am I just pissing in the wind ploughing money into the 3.6? Is it possible to get a high power output with some form of reliability? The third option is a turbo motor swap but then I'd be into the same money as a turbo with the same engine anyway. Sorry if the question's been asked a million times, I just haven't stumbled on a conclusive thread yet

I think there are some nice supercharger kits available for the 996. You might consider that.

If you want 500 hp go for the 996 or 997 turbo. The M96 is not designed for that kind of power output.

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If you are looking for reliable Viper/Lamborghini power, sell the 996 (or KEEP the 996) and get yourself one. I love my 996, but it just doesn't feel to me that it's meant to be a sledgehammer.

I've seen a guy at Cars & Coffee with a turbo'ed 996 3.4. No idea what the kit is or what sort of numbers he's seeing I'm afraid. If it were me, I'd want some sort of reassurance that the transmission could take the kind of numbers you're talking about - IIRC the 'box in the 996TT is rather stronger?

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+1

Get a turbo.

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hmm I did wonder, I've read of one or two big ish power M96's but you never get to know how long they lasted before imploding! Keeping and getting the Gallardo too is an option but just means waiting a while I suppose By all accounts the bay is a bit too compact for superchargers? The garage I've been talking with suggests that it will make routine servicing a massive pain in the rear - no pun intended. Plus the layout of the motor seems to lend itself well to turboing? Re going for a GT3/turbo I think I'd sooner do an engine shop if the net difference isn't much less, would like to retain rwd instead of awd and Cheers will have to look into that too - I'd imagine that'd be a slightly easier speedhump compared to the engine side of things but well worth noting

So when you were buying the car... you were looking at cars in the 60-90k range and decided on a car in the 15-30k range?

Here's a link: http://www.vfengineering.com/carrera-996/ Looks like the VF470 could get you into the 470 HP range.

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It's not difficult to remove the front drive on the turbo. That and a few other mods will get you a faux GT2.

I thought the compression ratio was too high on stock pistons to safely boost an M96 engine?

http://www.stanceworks.com/2015/05/bisimoto-porsche-911/

I thought about forced induction quite a bit when I owned my 996 C4S. I live at close to 8,000 feet of elevation in the Rocky Mountains, and forced induction is very nice to have up here. I seriously considered adding a supercharger kit to my 996, and there's a local shop here that was very confident in their ability to do the job. They have done similar jobs. Ultimately, I decided to sell my C4S and buy a factory turbocharged car. There were many things that went into the decision, but I'm happy with the choice. I think a supercharged or turbocharged 996 would be a really fun car, and I probably would have been happy with that also.

I put a turbo kit on one of my cars - NA Miata ('95). Drove it with a turbo for 5 years or so. It was an expensive, well developed, and well supported kit. Here is my experience: - power upgrade - yes it's awesome. - limited slip diff - a must have - if your 996 doesn't have one, you will be wasting power - reliability - crapshoot. I went through 3 transmissions on that miata. - refinement - this is the biggest issue. never quite got the boost curve to be as smooth as I would like. So it pulsed a little between 13-15 PSI as the RPMs climbed. I am sure a factory turbo will drive much nicer. - price/value - the kit for a 996 will cost you $10k minimum. You need a better clutch and a limited slip diff. Figure another $5k min. So $15k to add 150-200hp. You *may* blow your engine (that's $20k). You *may* blow your tranny ($??). When you will want to sell your car, the turbo will add ZERO value. Based on this experience above, I've stopped modding my cars for power. I suggest you get a 996TT.

I supercharged a car that came normally aspirated - effectively doubling WHP and making an INCREDIBLY fun car out of what was a rather underpowered import. I ran it that way for a couple of years and it was dead reliable. I sold it to another enthusiast (someone I knew VERY well and who I had helped with mods on his own car) who tinkered with it, changed out the throttle body without retuning the car, and put a hole in the block. That's the risk you run with aftermarket forced induction: it's probably going to be epic; it might be tragic. ODDS ARE you could safely go forced induction, but given how much it costs to source a decent replacement M96, I would run such low boost that it wouldn't really be worth the expense or additional complexity. I know other people have different opinions. Since the cars you're listing make BIG power, I really do think you're better off starting with a car with a much higher WHP baseline. I've limited my performance tinkering to my Corvette for the simple reason that if I blow the motor, I can get a crate rebuilt engine for a grand, a decently built crate engine for $1,500, and for the same ~$25K it would cost for a high-end rebuilt M96, a 454-cubic-inch LSx making 750HP at 7K RPM. I know a Corvette (or a Viper) isn't a Porsche, but OP was discussing high HP, not brand loyalty.

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Bisimoto has been thrashing his blue 930 for the past four years that has an M96 power plant.

Yup, and Bisi has the resources to drop it, fix it, repair it, etc. Dropping $40K in a ground-up build built around a completely custom M96 block is not the same thing as strapping a blower to a bone-stock M96. Bisimoto also produced a thousand-horsepower Honda van - but I'm guessing neither Honda nor Bisi are offering a ten-year, 100,000-mile powertrain warranty on that particular Odyssey. One of the things you HAVE to be willing to accept when you go F/I on a car that didn't come that way is that you might wind up fragging it. If you can't accept that (or afford it), it's just not a great decision.

There's been quite a few members that's had TPC turbo and VF Kits reliably for at least a few years now. However your comparisons seem like apples to oranges IMO. What exactly are you going for?(brand, fun factor, best value in any upper brand sports car, cheapest for hp among exotics, etc) And what are you target goals? Personally I'd trade that in for 996tt as that will have a great platform. I remember when 500hp was a big deal. Now all the 911tt's and Lambo's are at 1k hp. 500 is a walk in the park for 996tt's these days.

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But he hasn't had to. And you'd be amazed what IMS bearing he is using. You'd be surprised what has actually been done to the motor- not because of how extensive the build was, but because of how great a platform the M96 truly is.

Maybe he hasn't had to, but he has those resources at his disposal. Maybe OP has a 60% chance - or 70%, or even 80% chance that it will be problem-free. You can tell me until you're blue in the face that boosting a stock engine is perfectly safe; I can send you build/rebuild/part-out thread links started by folks who found this to NOT be true. The only reason I supercharged MY car is I knew I had the resources to fix anything that broke on the top end, and used bottom-ends were practically free from wreckers/recyclers. The reason I have NOT supercharged/turbocharged either of my M96-powered cars is because motors aren't cheap and I don't have the expertise to rebuild one myself. As an aside - the turbo kits I've seen for the 996 (the ones I have been able to track down in the 'real world,' not the unicorn kits that existed a decade ago) are good for ~100HP. OP is looking for more than double that. Like Alpine pointed out, HP goals are light years different now from what they were in 1999. In '99, 300-400HP was legitimate "supercar" territory. Today, the entry-level Hyundai sports coupe makes 348HP; a "base" Camaro makes 275HP from a boosted 4-banger and the V8 makes 455HP. Adding 100 HP to your 996 isn't going to catapult you into the realm of exotic/muscle car performance - not in 2016, anyway. Anyway, this is starting to sound like I'm anti-turbo/supercharger/bottle, which couldn't be further from the truth. It is EXHILARATING to wring more performance from your car than it came with...but I'm just not willing to do it to MY 996.

You are having fun within your means and I agree that it's a good way to figure out what fits someone's budget, time, or whatever. My statement was made in regard towards Triple Black's comment about the engine.

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I am not sure how you interpreted this from my post, but this is not what I implied. My comment implied you can make reliable power as demonstrated by Bisi.

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I'm not sure how pointing out that a completely customized M96 (iron sleeves, reworked valves, custom springs, rods, pistons) is reliable has any bearing on how reliable a factory M96 will be once you strap a blower to it.

Not to be clinical, but I don't think it makes much sense to do this. The market is pretty soft for non-metzger 996s and even more so for ones that have been extensively modified. I think you would have a pretty hard time selling your boosted car when you eventually decide to move on. If you started with a 996tt you could get to 500hp without extensive or uncommon mods, so you'd minimize your spend on the mods while also saving yourself resale value. My observation is that people are much less afraid of a lightly modded 996tt than any kind of modified C2 or C4. I agree it would be a laugh to have 450+ HP on a 996 Carrera, but this has a decent probability of ending up as a never-ending project that bleeds money. With the Turbo you'd spend less time fiddling and more time driving, which is nice IMHO

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You're saying I'm comparing apples to oranges, when really all I've said is the apple can be made into a reliable orange. Op asked "Is it possible to get a high power output with some form of reliability? " and the answer is yes.

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I get the feeling we could go back and forth endlessly. OP asked if he could go FI on his existing M96 reliably. My points that (a) even using commercially-available turbo/supercharger kits, he won't make the kind of power the other vehicles he mentioned make, and (b) an engine is typically less reliable when it is modified to make more power, so using a REALLY expensive short block is probably a poor candidate. A Gallardo makes ~550 HP; the current-gen Viper makes ~650. Comparing a 996 with a bolt-on turbo to a Gallardo or a Viper is tantamount to comparing Bruce Jenner (with some aftermarket mods) to Milla Jovovich.

The good news is that OP wants to go fast and appears willing to spend money; I look forward to the outcome, regardless of whether that is a 700HP monster Porsche build or a new Viper with a warranty.

996 or 997 turbo. 550 hp is easily achievable while still being very reliable and the car is done depreciating unless you wrap it around a tree.

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Yup, we can agree to disagree! The best thing about motorsports, or cars in general, you can make it your own. Some people may want to experience building their dream car or you can buy your dream car. There is no right or wrong answer.

You could always get a Flat6innovations 4.0 engine.

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loving the discussion guys given me lots to think about! Valid question! Ultimately? Something unique, pseudo-exotic but not left for dead by slightly tweaked fords I suppose. I guess what I want is to amplify everything I love about the car at the moment, the light weight, the precise handling, the roar when the mods hit peak power. Very true re apples and oranges - Ultimately I have a supra track build going on (and know substantially more about 2jz's than m96's!) but I already get the feeling that no matter how much I polish the supra, I'll never get the same smirk on my face than when I drive the porsche. The gallardo, viper and 996's are my 3 of my dream cars so I guess that's the main reason why they're mentioned in the same breath more than being a direct comparason.. That's kind of the dilemma there, building a beast or buying a beast. I think it's a case of finally getting something I love enough to keep - but longing for a bit more power. I hear a lot of mixed bag news about the IMS and IMS upgrade bearings. I guess that's what led me to wondering about the possibilities in the first place - hearing a few fabled stories about the M96's strengths amongst the less positive! I get what you're saying 100% 100% true - I don't expect a GTR beater as such. More just about levelling the playing field I suppose! I might run her on a dyno to see what I'm starting with. I did see a few kits running at 100-130 bhp which would be a start - I wonder what sort of kicks would be had as a compromise.. I'm sort of in the middle, I'm sure I could afford a solution if it went bang - in fact my solution would probably be to change the motor altogether with a metzger (the workshop briefed me on how big a job it is with extra crossmembers welded in place etc but I think if I was THAT far in it'd be the way I'd have to go.. I guess that's also part of the equation - whether I start aiming at a motor swap or not Fair point - but also helps ID the next questions that I was going to head onto - with regard to how extensive further mods would have to be Re-sale isn't something I'm too concerned about, never ending and worrying about it starting and going for a weekend probably is however.. I do quite like the idea of having something long-term and perfecting that said Unfortunately new viper's aren't too attainable here (Australia) so I'd probably be looking at something RT/10 (leaving a good budget again for mods over the lambo). But beyond muscle-car ness I'm not sure how much I'd love the RT day to day. Buying either with a bit of time and keeping the carrera isn't outside of the realms of possibilities I suppose in the future, I'm pretty impatient though :lol:

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and still be 250 bhp short of his goals.

Sell the car and go with a turbo. It will be easier to hit that power and you won't be dumping money into a car with zero return on the value. If you want a high power older Viper, get a '96-'99 with the forged motor and slap a supercharger on it for a safe 700whp, motor can go to 900whp before needing upgrades. If you're dead set on keeping your car, the easiest way would be an LS motor with turbos.

Sell the car, get 996 TT. You will be ahead on $$$ by a healthy margin. Put a tune on 996 TT, and you will be close to your 500 hp goal.

what ims does bismoto use?

NSK ball bearing. I don't remember if he said it was single or dual though.

A local customer of mine has a 996TT complete engine with 17K miles for sale... 12K takes it. It is all there, as a complete pull from a rolled over car. Boosting an M96 is't cheap, or easy.. To make real power reliably all internals must be addressed. If I accept an M96 Turbo engine I'll only use our billet crank, that adds 6.5K immediately. Every time we've really made big power with one, even the plastic intake pieces start to fail, as well as intake gaskets.

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It was strange to move from imports - where modifications are common and considered a good/acceptable practice to a make like Porsche where many owners consider it blasphemy to dare to touch the perfection that rolled off of the Porsche assembly line. The "why would you change it, when Porsche obviously knows what's best for you" attitude takes some getting used to. Even the Corvette crowd - many of whom are significantly older than I am - is much less leery of performance/handling modifications. For them, the draw is camaraderie around the Corvette name more than a common belief that each car is sacrosanct and shouldn't ever be modified.

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This is the best solution if you plan on keeping the car. The M96 would be a great experiment but you'll either end up short of your HP goals or with a wallet bleeding money.

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For the sake of fantasizing, what would it take to get this engine properly sorted in a narrow body C2?

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I didn't notice you were Australian. I'm not sure what the emissions requirements are - but an LSx swap (which I love the idea of, but in California it's just not realistic) might make sense for you, assuming you can find some of that expertise close by. I can understand that you may want to stick with a Porsche engine from a purist perspective, but a properly executed LSx swap (and a turbo or s/c if you can fit it in there) has the possibility of being epic. If there were not so many flaming hoops to deal with in California, this would ABSOLUTELY be my fall-back position if anything ever happens to my 3.4...

renegade makes a pretty good kit from what ive heard.

^ The Renegade "kit" is more of a DIY starter pack...some of the more optimistic descriptions I've seen online make it sound as though you can do the swap in an afternoon... It's not rocket science to drop a small-block Chevy motor into another car, but there's a lot more involved than the adapter plates and the mounts, especially if you want all of the instruments, accessories, etc. to work. There are some AWESOME examples out there of this done well - like White Out's before it met its tragic end; there are also some serious Frankenstein examples of shops who figured this was a cakewalk as long as they had the Renegade kit. I have seen more than one plumbed with PVC, copper, ABS, and everything else you can buy at Home Depot... These are from Renegade's Wall of Shame...some of their business is fixing the botched swaps done by other garages.

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There's one guy selling a Renegade LS swapped '99 with the full amber lights on ebay now for the low low price of $49k. LOL. OMG....

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He's got $50K into the car, so it must be worth $50K...

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Wow, that TT engine is a smoking deal!

I would think the LSX option to be very viable in Australia .The LSX is a very popular engine with strong local support .With the exception of the bell housing adapter and flywheel all the other parts should be available locally . It would not be too expensive to shoot for 750 hp .The one area that still needs a cost effective solution is gearing .The m96 transaxle is not optimum for a big torque/ horsepower engine -it's just too low (numerically high)

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OP should look for ex Holden Commodore race car engine from the V8 Supercar series.

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I've seen Turbos with the engine removed. The packaging Porsche has done to fit the Turbo engine with all the large diameter intake plumbing, exhaust plumbing, and intercoolers and the rest -- A/C lines, A/C cooled fuel cooler, fuel filter, etc. -- is amazing. I believe attempting to fit a Turbo engine into a N/A car is very likely to end badly. You might find someone who's done it and if you can learn of the gotchas and how these were addressed/handled that might be of some value. The intercoolers are important as they remove quite a bit of heat from the incoming intake charge -- which is compressed and heated as the result. These need air flow and you can see how Porsche managed to get then into the air flow yet locate them down and out of the way. The aerodynamics of the Turbo is amazing, too. I've driven my Turbo in very high ambient temperatures -- 118F -- and even when pushing it (165mph) -- the car remained quite cool and composed. The engine runs cool with a very stable coolant temperature even in very high ambient heat due in no small part to how well when moving air flows through the radiators (3 of them I might mention), through the intercoolers and last but not least through the engine compartment to remove the substantial amount of heat that the "miles" of exhaust tubing emit (and those very hot turbos). There is always the exception but generally one is better buying his high(er) performance Porsche in the form of a higher performance model. IOWs, swapping a N/A 996 for a Turbo. Trying to make a "Turbo" out of a 996 N/A car even with a Turbo engine as a starting point is probably as I said above is likely to end badly. If I wanted a brute of a car I'd try to find a car that started out as a brute to begin with. Like a Viper or possibly a Corvette or possibly -- I haven't followed these -- a Ford Mustang. Or pick up a late model Pontiac GTO. I had a 2006 example. The car came with a 6.0l 400hp V8 and the engine is relatively easy to mod and hop up and not super expensive/exotic. I left mine stock but many owners go crazy. For a more recent car look into a Dodge Challenger R/T with a Scat Pack. 6.4l V8 with 485hp. Heavy duty 6-speed or IIRC you can get one with a 7 or 8 speed automatic. I've been toying with buying one of these Challengers. Would have bought one back in early 2015 in fact but I got rehired and have been so busy with work haven't had time to shop cars. Probably for the best.