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YOUR RESEARCHWhat's really going on with 4S prices?
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Repair but not the ims, planning
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Water pump and a few other items have been replaced or repaired but not the IMS, planning to do that soon with the clutch.
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IMS was replaced, had a full PPI from a local Porsche dealership.
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The sticker was roughly $115K, the engine was replaced by the dealer within the past year.
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I got my 02 C4S for $25k a few months ago, it had 98k miles on it, but the engine was replaced under warranty at 42k miles, this was done back in 07.
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Water pump and a few other items have been replaced or repaired but not the IMS, planning to do that soon with the clutch.
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Hi all,
Last year I bought a nice Seal 2003 4S coupe 6mt with 59k miles on it for what I thought was a normal price for a nice 996 C2, plus maybe the usual $2-3k for the 4S. Since then, the doug video came out, there has been ever increased articles and "influencer" content about the 996, and while all 996 prices have gone up, 4S prices seem to have really gone up.
I am regularly seeing stock cars in condition similar to mine with milage in the 45k-65k range going for ~$34k.
My question is, is anymore actually paying this amount for 996 4Ss? Can anyone confirm selling, or buying a 4S, without ridiculously low miles for above $30k?
While I've enjoyed my 996 tremendously, I've always wanted a 997 Turbo coupe, and I am wondering where the market for the 996 4S is actually at.
No judgements here at all, just curious if these prices are for real, or if all the dealers are all asking low-mid thirties, but not actually selling for that amount. Appreciate people's experiences.
Run through the older classified ads here on rennlist they go back to 2011.
By lower mileage im referring to 30k and under.
The 45-65k have ranged from high 20�s to low 30�s.
The reason I went with a tt was at the time the price jump for a low mileage 996 tt was a 7-10k gap over a similar C4s.
I bought my c4s in 2013 with 45k on the clock for $37k. I would not sell it now with 65k miles for less than $30k. From a value standpoint I just don't think I can get something comparable for the price.
After shopping for at least 2 months, I could not find a clean, mid mileage, well maintained C4S manual coupe with an asking price of less than $35k. There were a few in the high $20's low $30's but they all had a either a weird story, high mileage, or accidents on file. I was trying to stay in the ~50k mileage range and looking for only cars that have had recent major services and LN IMS installations. I ended up narrowing it down between two cars that were both being offered at ~$36k. I negotiated with both owners and one of the sellers finally came down to $32.5k and that was the best deal I could find anywhere. IMO finding a nice, clean, no story C4S wasn't easy and I don't think people are giving the good ones away.
In the end I feel I got exactly what I wanted. My car has 53k miles, is extremely clean, well maintained, and drives like a beauty. Could I probably have saved more money by being less picky and buying a different car?...Probably. Would I personally ever chance taking that route?...Hell no. But everyone's situation and budget is different. However, I sleep well at night and feel I made the best choice for me.
By the way I talked to the owner at Victory Motorcars in Houston that is selling that silver C4S for $34,500. It has been listed for a little while now and hasn't sold but I think it could be from a combination of a lack of recent service records and the owner told me the IMS was changed at his shop with a LN bearing. When I asked for the serial number or any proof of this he stopped replying to my emails. At the time there was no proof of the bearing installation on the IMS website, either. So just a heads up.
Needless to say, I passed.
And the Cobalt Blue C4S in Maryland has a a few weird entries on its Carfax. In 2016 it list three separate accident reports, one in Jan, one in July, and one in Oct. Very weird. Could be an error but taking that into consideration, plus no IMS update, the shipping distance to my home, and the gray interior...I passed. Might be a good car for someone though.
Thanks.
This is great information, thank you. I also believe there is a solid $3k-5k premium for guards 4Ss. I wanted one. Good looking car, paint, condition, miles, LN. That car is worth $32.5k all day. This is why I am skeptical of the prices I am seeing. You car is more rare, better taken car of, sports eats, and has fewer miles than any of those ones I posted for 34k, most of which didn't have a bearing job.
Asking prices and selling prices rarely have anything in common. "All 996 prices have gone up" I don't see that trend at all. I see people who can't get $15-$18k for good cars.
K, if people could please stop repeating what my entire post was literally about, and what two other people have already said that would be great.
Already have some great information going here, let keep it up!
Yes I agree and it does have some nice options such as the Sport Seats and deviated carpet, the carbon package, etc...and best of all I found out a previous owner had a Porsche dealer install PSE complete with the electronics and button on the dash. This option was not on the original VIN worksheet. So that was a nice bonus.
Not to change the subject but I actually prefer how this car drives over my 997 C2S. It's just a bit more raw. The 997 was a little softer I think...not by much, just a little. Also I'm not a fan of the 997 PCM screen so not having that in this car is great. 997 has better sport seats though.
Car Gurus tracks market trends and their market pricing metrics were showing an upward trend over the last 3 years on the 996 911's as a whole on average. Over the last 3 years, 2002's are up on average 4.5%, 2003's are down 1.7% (dip from a bad month this June), and 2004's are up 6.4%. If you take out June, the 2003's were up 5.9%.
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-...rsche-911-d404
Oh wow that's great!! Easily the best sounding exhaust for the 996. I have fabspeed maxflows, and while better than stock, don't have the awesome tone of the PSE.
[color=#333333]
Great info!
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-...rsche-911-d404
[/QUOTE]
If you want to know what your car is worth put it up for sale. I just checked Ebay sold listings and found several low mileage 4S and a low mileage turbo (under 50 k miles) sold for less than $31k (the turbo) , 4S models were high twenties. So no, people are not paying mid-30s for cars with over 50k miles. Expect high twenties at best.
That's ok, because some of us who don't spend all day on the forums are actually trying to have a discussion and share information; for the most part, it's going great!
I agree with you, that's what I am thinking. The guys putting up cars in the 30s seem to have reeaaally nice ones with good histories and options. Mine's a solid driver but probably not stand-out.
I wish I could have found one for high twenties when I was looking. I looked hard for two months. Every internet source. There are some out there but they aren't the best examples IMO and I am too OCD to take a chance on one I guess.
And if you get one with no RMS/AOS/Clutch/IMS replacement you might as well add $$$$ in your mind to make up for the lower sales price.
But on Ebay I only see two 996 C4S Coupes recently sold. One went for $34.6k with 47 bids.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-Porsch...paw~H5&vxp=mtr
Other was given away for $27k in what looked to be a no reserve auction with only 2 bids. If that is a good car someone got extremely lucky.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Porsch...pa70yi&vxp=mtr
The other two 996 C4S recently sold were cabriolets for $28k and $29k.
The turbo shouldn't even be mentioned...who knows what hell is wrong with that thing. Guy is claiming over 700hp.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Porsch...dbDB4v&vxp=mtr
As others mentioned, no need to be snarky. Your "entire post" literally included a screen shot of dealer listing prices as supporting evidence. Of course dealer prices are going to be inflated.
Now that said, I paid $35k in the fall of 2016 for a 34k mile, heavily optioned 2004 C4S with IMS done.
OP will probably flog me for deviating from the scope of his original question but whatever - I have a high mileage 106k no stories c4s with extensive service history, IMS and maintenance records and I couldn't sell it for $25k. Got a few offers between 22-23k though.
Not at all man, I just know buyers get all crazy anytime you get near or over 100k and so results are probably not as consistent as the "mid-miles" range, which is the only reason I framed it that way. Appreciate your experience. What colors? Coupe? 6MT?
3 of those 6 were individuals. I was clearly incredulous about actual transaction prices. Fortunately we've moved on, and people, like yourself are commenting with their experiences.
It appears to me so far that the only cars actually selling in the 30s have under 50k miles, or are exceptionally clean and have the big items done, like the above guards red example which had other nice goodies too.
Well the title of the thread is "
What's really going on with 4S prices?
", since you seem to have missed it.
The question I asked in the first post was "
is anymore actually paying this amount for 996 4Ss? Can anyone confirm selling, or buying a 4S, without ridiculously low miles for above $30k?
"
Then I further clarified with "
Has anyone here purchased, or sold a
996 C4S
with over 50k miles for more than $30k?
"
Please just stop, you seem to be lacking in reading comprehension, and you clearly have nothing to add here, where others have had no problem.
I did a search of recent Bring a Trailer auctions for C4S cars, nearly all of them are "Reserve not met" with bids in high $20k range, in one case low $33,000 though that car is listed with 18,000 miles...
https://bringatrailer.com/search/c4s/
Maybe folks are just delusional about pricing or are holding out?
Also, don't pick fights, please. I appreciate your energy for your cause but there's no call to be hostile. This is a place of opinions and you came for them, so you've got to just roll with it.
The BaT site is gaining popularity everyday but it is not near as widely known as Ebay/AutoTrader/Cars.com, etc, so I believe they have an overall smaller buyer base. And the comments section in BaT can make or break a car, depending on how active the owner is about responding to questions and things like that. It can get down right ruthless in there. Also the timing of the auction can play a role, a you only get one shot to sell it. All of these factors can influence the final outcome in a BaT auction.
However, with maybe one or two exceptions, the high $20's C4S cars that have sold all have higher mileage. So if a 101k mile 2003 C4S sells for $28,250 at the end of March 2018, why should a car with half the mileage sell for the same amount, or even less? I think its perfectly reasonable to add a $4-5k premium for a car with half the mileage. Often time that also equates to much less interior wear and exterior wear. And for people like myself that only add between 3-5k miles in a year, that's a lot of years if you buy a car with 50k less miles.
101k mile 2003 C4S $28,250
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-carrera-4s-8/
Just my opinion most of the lower and mid mileage C4S cars on BaT that never reached their reserve were probably correctly priced but it never got there. Who wants to give their car away? I don't think there is anything delusional about that.
Especially when a 23k mile 2003 C4S cabriolet can sell in
December
of 2017 for over $35k. And with no IMS upgrade at at that.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-carrera-4s-4/
Hopefully my reply will be helpful: I bought an Arctic Silver Metallic 2004 C4S Cabriolet in June 2017 for $33,500. It had ~50k miles on it. Seller was asking $34,250, and was in no rush to sell. IMS was replaced, had a full PPI from a local Porsche dealership. Options list included Technic Package, Sport Techno wheels, Bose High End Sound, Full leather, etc. Included factory hard top. Some minor rock chips here and there, scrapes on the lower front chin spoiler. Stickered for $102,130.00 when new. I should note that this was in the Boston area.
Great thread. Rarely do "value" threads result in constructive conclusions, this one is an exception. Thanks very much to OP for rigidly sticking to the "experiences not opinions" focus. I think the tone used was appropriate. It's an open forum, but if you don't want to discuss the specific topic raised, or you don't think the topic has merit, then just stay out of the thread, it's as simple as that. It's common courtesy and should be part of the forum rules in my opinion (but that probably won't happen).
fo�rum
ˈf�rəm/
noun
1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
"it will be
a forum for
consumers to exchange their views on medical research"
I'm just saying...
Trust me the forum cops here will deal with what they consider indiscretions...
I�ve said this over and over and over and have been lambasted every time. ALL 996�s MT coupes have started appreciating with the values of low mileage, great shape, or more desirable (i.e.C4S) models leading the charge. I�d say the very bottom was Q1 2017, after that it�s been an upward trend.
Many of these cars are still daily driven, so people have to keep in mind the depreciation due to mileage might still make a particular car worth less, but on the whole all 996�s are worth more this year than last.
Haha, I know, this haunts me every time I drive! I almost want to sell my car and buy a .1 with aerokit and over 100k miles so I don't think about it anymore. I feel like i may actually enjoy the car more!
"on a particular issue"
is the key element. Anybody can discuss anything they want on a forum -- I couldn't agree more with that and would never suggest restricting that, but you can't (shouldn't) come into somebody else's thread and either try to completely change the subject or demean the subject. If you want to talk about something else, start your own thread. If you don't like a thread, stay out. Forum discussions should work roughly like real-world discussions. Nobody in the real-world walks into an ongoing discussion with a group of people and announces to the entire group "this discussion sucks" or "let's talk about something else" -- they just start their own different conversation with other people. That same type of courtesy should apply in online discussions also (in my opinion).
This isn't just a courtesy for the OP, the whole forum benefits and that is exactly why this is the one "value" discussion that actually has meaningful conclusions. I won't comment further because I don't want to be one of those guys disrupting the OP's thread, but since the OP took heat for tone, I felt it was relevant to comment. Please return to your regularly scheduled C4S value discussion and I apologize for the distraction.
Awesome! Here's mine doing the cone shuffle!
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Couple more:
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aaand
Why I miss my Boxster... teaching others to drive m/t is the best!
sFjrwbkl.jpg
The turbo shouldn't even be mentioned...who knows what hell is wrong with that thing. Guy is claiming over 700hp.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Porsch...dbDB4v&vxp=mtr
[/QUOTE]
The turbo buyer...
Bought this Porsche paid the deposit. Seller then relisted and is not respondingt***x ( 147
) During past month2002 Porsche 911 turbo (#173375105774)US $2,000.00
I'd like to add to this. I bought my '04 C4S Cabriolet earlier this year with roughly 31K on it. In my case the seller was asking almost $39K for it but did seem like he wanted to sell it sooner rather than later. Paid similar to Apollo76, car passed PPI but did not have the IMS replaced, car was completely original and the engine was never removed.Barely a mark on it, 2 prior owners in the same family. $105K sticker with painted hardback sport seats, painted center tunnel, red gauges, exterior matching dash trim and AC slats, aluminum package, Bose High End Sound, Full leather, turbo wheels etc.
Lol, fun thread here. In an attempt to add something useful, I purchased a well optioned 03 Artic/Blk 6mt C4s w/ 97k mi last Sept for $22k. PO was asking $25k but a PPI revealed a few needs and $22k is where we landed. I�ve since spent about $8k replacing wear items including the IMS, clutch, coolant system, etc. I know you were more curious about lower mi cars, but hope this helps to at least create a baseline. Car was in rural Missouri which undoubtedly helped in my favor. I also shop daily just to see how I did and watch eBay and BAT auctions so I can see what they actually sell for not just what people are asking. Depending on options and history, a mid mi C4s seems to be going for $28-32k.
I bought my 02 C4S for 27,900 in April 2016. It had 47k miles, full leather, Bose, Litronic HIDs, and had some road rash on wheels but overall in good shape inside and out. The dealer in Long Island said the clutch was done at 38k miles and at the time the IMSB was good. Ha, why didn't they just replace that thing?!
Today it has 83k miles and I have been driving on highway 27 miles to work almost every day. Last fall my daughter went off to college so I drive her Elantra a few times a week or my Porsche miles would be close to 100k by now.
It has the sooty left exhaust and makes some lifter/scoring noise. That has been going on for last 20k miles. I just do oil analysis, check filter, use magnetic drain plug and check cam deviation. If it stopes running, I'll rebuild the engine. It was $89,900 when it was new.
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I got my 02 C4S for $25k a few months ago, it had 98k miles on it, but the engine was replaced under warranty at 42k miles, this was done back in 07. It is in excellent shape inside out, was already lowered with coil overs and a 997 shifter was installed.
I am the 4th owner and the PO provided service documentation dating back to when the car was new. Water pump and a few other items have been replaced or repaired but not the IMS, planning to do that soon with the clutch. One of the things included was the original window sticker and it had a price of $102k on it.
Just picked up an 03 Artic/Grey PSE w/ 31k miles for 32k about 3 weeks ago. PPI revealed nothing major. IMS has not been done though. I had a chance to get the Lapis Blue one shown in the beginning of this thread private party for 24.8k. The owner got 24k from Carmax before I could move on it. Now the dealer that picked it up is asking 33.4k.
I bought my 02 C4S at auction from a broker a month ago. It had 66k miles and is in good driver shape. I paid 23,500 (including broker fee) and put about 3k worth of maintenance and 4 tires in it. No IMS yet, trying to wait until next year, pending a blackstone report.
It has an accident on the carfax but upon inspection no panels have been removed and the paint meter showed the rear quarter was resprayed. No big deal, it looks flawless.
So we see some low mile examples over $30K and higher mile (but still reasonable) examples under $30K.
I think most dealers are willing to negotiate most of the time except for those that believe they have a unicorn on their hands.
When I was looking I found one that had every option including the power kit. The sticker was roughly $115K, the engine was replaced by the dealer within the past year.
Car was INSANE. Dealer would not drop from $39K. Car had about 40K on the odometer.
And he was a jerk.
Enjoy those C4S's..........
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Just picked up my first 911 five days ago: 2003 C4S, black on black, 67k miles, 6 MT - paint is a 8/10, but it's black so that's expected. RMS, IMS (LN certified), Flywheel, clutch, all done in the past 6k miles. Newer tires, perfect turbo rims, FisterD exhaust (sounds amazing), Bose, cd changer, all original interior, seats are 7.5/10, just a bit of fade and wear. Service records and receipts. Oil change done last week and filter/grommet/oil looked pristine.
Options weren't a consideration as much as mechanical condition. All I cared about is how it feels driving.
Picked her up for $29k in the Bay Area from the coolest seller. Yes, market dictates pricing. VERY happy with the purchase and the price.
Car runs like a dream.
Congrats on your first 911, she's a beauty! Good choice in the 996 C4S.
Looks to me like you got a great deal, especially considering the recent services and other upgrades.
Have fun and enjoy it!
Thanks, Matt! I really love the Guards Red, as well! So congrats to you as well!
I feel the same about getting in at a good price. He even gave me the original IMS and it's in perfect shape. HAH!
Either way, I went into the purchase thoughtful, but quickly. As I had just put in an offer on a house and was outbid by $125k. It made the $29k seem petty :-) Easy buy.
I had a c4s lapis on metropol carbon fiber interior with 60k on it that I bought 2010 for 30k. My guess that car would be 33-34k today pretty easily. At this point it’s never really a bad time to buy a c4s if you find a car/deal you like. (Hopefully both)
Nice thread! I've always enjoyed reading auction data. Yep, I've even watched the live auctions on a daily basis. Sick isn't it!?
The reality of our cars is this... the M96 base Carreras will always suffer from bad press associated with it's modes of failure. The IMS bearing problem being at the top of the list.
Looking at auction data, it is clear. The average M96 Carrera has flat lined in the last few years. However, it looks like the C4S is still bringing in a premium over the base Carreras and has shown a little increase in the last couple of years, but not much to shake a stick at. It all boils down to exclusivity. If you had one of the few GT cup cars or even the GT3 or GT2, then you'd see a nice return, but I wouldn't hold my breath of the run-of-the-mill M96 non-mezger based cars. I know we all think our cars are the proverbial diamond in the rough, but let's enjoy our cars for what they're worth - that is, priceless!
Just before 2019 but I bought a 2003 C4S with 57k miles in November for $27,500. Now that I'm familiar with the car, that feels like a steal.
I had been looking for a long time for either blk/blk or silver/blk manual in good shape and history and it felt like any car that popped up had
something
that didn't sit right with me. Finally got this one with good service records from a PCA member but I had to travel a bit. It's at about 61k miles now and I really don't see myself selling it.
Bought my C4S 02' last year with 90k for 20000$
There was work to do on it, mostly cosmetic except IMS but it was in good mechanical conditions with the majors items done.
After a PPI I couldn't pass it even if the interior color was not what I was looking for exactly.
The options I wanted especially the PSE and Xenon headlights were present.
As of today I dont regret my choice and still think I couldn't get an equivalent sport car for this price.
Congrats on the deal.
Kind of what I'm starting to look at now. Will be ready to buy between December and next summer. Hoping to find a clean C4S in the low to mid 20's. If the IMS hasn't been done then the car needs to be very clean otherwise. Will get a PPI to ensure the engine at least looks good enough to invest $ into. I think I've seen enough available around the country that if one I like won't allow the oil pan to be dropped and cylinder's scoped, I can pass and wait for another. I'm also fortunate to not be too picky on color. I prefer gray but am open to black, silver, red, and maybe even a blue. Wife want's a cab but would understand compromising for the right deal.
As a bonus, visited a friend last Friday that just built a huge garage for his current and future toys. Will have 2 4-post lifts and 1 2-post. His offer is I can have a car occupy a lift at any time for as long as needed. He's a 7 hour drive away, but he'd also help with any of the manual labor. Awesome to have friends like that, and it makes me more confident of being able to tackle engine work myself if needed. I could do it in my garage, but the wife would be pissed lol!
First off, beware of Victory Motors. Do a search and there will be many negative posts about Robert and the dealership. That said, his stock in trade is mainly p-cars. As far a why the price points - you get a turbo body and suspension set-up without the turbos. For me I had to have the wider hips on the C4S.
I bought my C4S from Victory motors and had ZERO ISSUES with them. Car was represented factually and 1 1/2 years later I am loving every minute of C4S Cab ownership.
Every experience is unique and I am sure that every dealer has its fans and its enemies.
This car is an incredible drive and is an absolute steal.
I'm an original owner of a 04 C4S, stock, Lapis blue bl top, grey interior with 50k miles. Nothing has been replaced on it and it drives like a bat out of hell. I think all I've ever done to it was flush the radiator once, swap out the convertible pistons, new alternator and change the oil every 12 months.
I'm been wanting to get rid of it but after seeing what's out there and the $$ I'm thinking about doing a complete paint touch up, full maintenance check up, new rims and a high end interior detail. I also have an 05 Excursion diesel from day one and am thinking of doing the same to it and calling it a day. I've had 15 yrs of pretty much trouble free time with them and if I put some money in them and keep em another 15yrs i'll be early 70's and everything will be electric and self driving!
Bought a month ago. 2002 4S 69k Guards Red. Great PPI, rear left rim a little warped, rear speakers don't work and passenger seat wasn't working (cleaned and seems to work, fingers crossed). There is some road rash on front hood with a small ding if you go looking for imperfections. Options are leather interior related, seats emblem, and CH Changer related. Car has a occasional noise from front left. Not to concerned, I think it's a drop link. Drives straight at speed. Winter fun.
I honestly went looking for a higher mileage car since I would drive it. My 00 Box S had low miles, beautiful body and I never really enjoyed it for that reason. This one is perfect for me.
$25k, put in LN and new clutch, now at 28k.
When I looked at the car, the guy mentioned some scratches where the rear fender meets the spoiler and some on the vents on the rear bumper. I loved the car so I said no problem. When I went to pick up, the guy polished the car and the scratches came out. Whatever the owner rubbed into, the paint from the other item rubbed on to the 4S. With a little elbow grease, all gone. He wanted to charge me more and I said too bad.
Regarding the 4S over the Carrera, I preferred the look and the extra front end weight. Felt it gave a richer (Heavier) ride. I do get the lower weight Carrera thing too. Whatever floats your boat.
Purchased a 2003 C4S in the summer of 2016. Speed Yellow, back painted sport seats, center console painted, 6M,LN IMS/RMS done, x 73 sport suspension, hollow turbo twists, 65,000 miles for $32.5. Can�t be happier. Daily drove the car and now is at FSI getting an elective 3.8 upgrade.
