Cheap and effective way to have 5 point harnesses on the car?

Hi guys, Next two weeks will be my first time doing PDE wih the 996 C4S. The club requires that I have 5 or 6 point harnesses on the car. I searched through Brey-Krause, and they have harness mount for $500+. Is there a cheaper way to do this? Plus, are the different brands of the harnesses more or less the same? or are there significant differences? Thanks, Richard

just some advice, when it comes to safety, its not a good idea to pinch pennies to do it properly, you can go with: Tequipment Rollbar GT3 Seat(s) 6 point harness some people get away without the GT3 seats, but i would not recommend using stock seats as the harnesses may slide around.

150% agree with this statement. This is not a place to count pennies. Chad

Do you guys know where can I get Tequipment Rollbar at a great price? Thanks.

the cost-effective solution is a harness bar (speedware) and 5-pt like the sparco. you can use the stock seats, all you'll need is a sub-belt bracket that attaches to the seat frame rail. i like the speedware because it ties the b-pillars together (adds torsional rigidity), weighs less than a roll bar, and can be installed/removed with nary a trace. i have a used setup for a 996 well under $500. pm me if interested.

Has there been any independent evidence that higher-priced products protect any better than lower-priced ones? Are there different government testing requirements for the more expensive units? Until I see actual data supporting the idea that more expensive roll bars, harnesses, helmets, etc are safer, the spend-more line of thinking doesn't fly with me.

OK, I may start a controversy here, but everyone who has spoken to me about this topic has said that you should NEVER get a harness WITHOUT a rollbar. The three point belts are designed to be used without a roll bar because it allows the passenger to slip out of the way of the crushing roof in the event of a rollover. If you install a five or six point harness without a rollbar and you roll, your head has nowhere to go and will be crushed if you roll: The harness will not help you. Now, if you have a rollbar, the harness is a far better solution than three point belts because your head presumably will not be crushed in the event of a roll over. I just researched this topic extensively because I am very safety conscious and I am sick of slipping around my seats on the track in my stock 3 point belts. Unfortunately, I need the use of my back seats and thus cannot install a rollbar. Everyone has told me to stick with my stock 3 point seat belts unless and until I am willing to install a full rollbar. Don't shoot the messenger, I am just relaying what I have been told. TD P.S. This is not the area to let your wallet govern your decisions.

[QUOTE=TD in DC]OK, I may start a controversy here, but everyone who has spoken to me about this topic has said that you should NEVER get a harness WITHOUT a rollbar. [QUOTE] Again...I agree with this 150% Chad

Very well put. Also, the rollbar, GT3 seat and harness are designed to be used together. Using the standard seats and a harness is foolish IMO for many reasons. Even if the roof holds, there are a lot of g-forces generated in an accident and there's no telling which direction the straps for the harness will move without a seat with loops/holes designed to hold them in place. A severe neck or back injury is not out of the question with this set up. Don't think you're safe just because you have a harness. Which PCA region are you in? I've never heard of such requirements for a DE.

I've heard different opinions from people who race and sell this equipment on the necessity of a rollbar with 6pt harness, but obviously a rollbar is safer. However, you must not mount the sub-belt to the front mounting bolts of the seat or to any bracket that is in front of the seat belt buckle. A sub-belt is not an 'anti-submarine belt', it is to keep the lap belt from riding up off your hip bones.

Excellent points on safety have been made. My read on the question, however, is that rxt27 is simply trying to find a cheap way to conform to the regs for his first DE in his C4S. Check with the sponsoring organization again, rxt27. I've NEVER heard of a 5-6 point harness being a requirement for DE, much less for a first timer/novice. Even if you've done it before but not in the C4S, the harness is usually a recommendation and not a mandatory requirement for the experienced run groups.

I can't believe this post got this long before someone posted that. your asking for a broken neck if you run harnesses without a halo or roll bar, stock seat belts are much safer than that.

i've had three serious wrecks, two were roll-overs. in both cases, the roof collapased at the a-pillar INFRONT of the drivers head. a roll bar would have done very little in thoses instances. if you want peace of mind, install a cage. imo, I think a rollbar is unnecessary for drivers ed, and if you want to run a time trial with the poc, you need a 5-pt. and fire extinguisher--rollbars are not specified (!).

I will be doing the time trial event with Golden Gate region PCA. It requires that I have 5/6point harness, and fire extinguisher, but not a roll bar/cage. I had been doing track events in BMW events, and I used the stock seat belts. This harness and fire extinguisher mods are mods that I didn't plan to have on the car. So now I am looking at the different options that I can have the harness on the car. BTW, this car is a daily driver, and I do use the rear seats at times.

If people want peace of mind, they should watch from the pits... I also highly doubt that "gt3" seats are the "only" way to go. They are certainly the most expensive way to go. But not everyone has the $$$'s for this. It also seems odd that a roll bar would be required in this situuation--novice DE.

rxt27, I noticed that you're in the bay area. I don't know of any clubs in Northern CA that require a 5 or 6 point harness for a DE (not even the PCA). You should be fine with your stock 3 point belt, a good head on your shoulders, and a competent instructor. This is your first DE so keep it simple and have a fun, safe, learning experience. As you build your speed and experience, you should think of getting safety equipment and/or a dedicated track car that you can put all the right safety stuff in and not have to live with it on the street.

As I was saying, it is a time trial event. Is DE the same as time trial event?

hey, were you at ground school this past saturday? i think it depends on the class you are in but i left ground school with the impression that everyone who does the TT portion of the DE weekend need a harness. i know, it's kinda confusing but check the ggr rule book (i think the rule book needs an overhaul). if you still can't find your answer then call ken park the chairman or gary dorighi.

to my understanding the DE is part of the TT. the second have of sunday is the timed event. you don't have to officially submit any times if you do run during the timed sessions but you still have to submit your time card. i'm just doing the saturday high speed driving school so i don't have to worry about harnesses.

Yeah I was in the ground school this past saturday. I just talk to the time trial chief driving instructor and he said I do need 5/6 point harness and fire extinguisher. Thanks for everybody's inputs. See you in Thunderhill karlooz.

fahren affair - tell me more about the speedware setup - how do you mount the subbelt on a stock seat? wouldn't it just pull the belts away from the driver since it has to wrap around the edge of the seat? (as opposed to a race seat that has the hole in the middle of the seat for the sub belt)

I'm in the GGR and unless they changed the rules this year, you only need a helmet to do DE's. I know as I've done DE's before with them. I think you're looking at the TT rules, which as a novice you shouldn't participate in yet anyways. I was going to do the Sears Point DE earlier this year with them, but they wouldn't let me in without going to ground school. This was a bit absurd since I've done lots of DE's the past few years with many organizations...including GGR. I was out of town the day of the ground school and it poured rain the day of the DE, so they did me a favor. The GGR DE events I've done in the past have been weak. They get started late, have way too many cars/run groups, get off schedule, charge too much and are hyper bureaucratic. Maybe that's changed in the last year or two. If not, PM me and I'll point you in the direction of some groups that run high quality DE's where you'll get excellent instruction and lots more track time for less money.

Holger B, Maybe GGR let me participate the time trial event because I had about 15 track days over the past 3 years. Even someone with alot of track experience is required be in the student class the first time s/he joins GGR. Could you email me ([email removed]) a list of organizations that you said are excellent? Thanks.

OK, if it's bare bones/cheap you want, here's the set up I had done but no longer use due to the safety concerns already mentioned. It's the cheapest way to go, but still costs a pretty penny. It's on my C4S too, so it should easily translate to yours. I used the BK harness bar for the 996 cab. It's the only one that will fit the 996 C4S. Takes 10 minutes to install/remove. I have the Schroth 6 point harness. The 5 point requires a sub bar and a hole in the seat bottom, whereas the 6 points will attach to the stock seat belt mounts. Then, you need the BK outside and tunnel side mounting brackets for the lap and sub belts. Right now I use the three point belts, and the harness bar as a very expensive camera and lap timer mount. I'd sell the whole set up to you, but that would mean I'd have to admit I made a collosal mistake. Can't quite admit that yet . I'd also be selling you something that I think is wrong.

so you have a 6 pt harness over stock seats? do you have pictures of what htat looks like?

Just checked my archive. Sorry, seems I didn't take any pics. Anyway, the shoulder harness goes around the headrest (a no-no). The lap belts and the sub-belt go on the same bracket. Lap belts go over the hip/thigh, sub-belts go under the thigh/buttock. The Shroth belts are made in such a way that they are actually comfortable in this configuration, and effective IMHO. I've seen someone use the same setup, plus the 3 points to turn off the seat belt warning light. A 9 point harness!!! Don't get me wrong. I still don't recommend the set up due to concerns already raised.

sorry, a little confused still - so with a 6 pt the two lower (bottom or sub belts, whatever they're called) still go between your legs, right? or no?

Yup, they go between the legs. You end up sort of sitting on them, and they leave a gap for the family jewels as they head up to hook to the buckle. Think of a parachute harness, or a harness for those fun rides in a fun park.

Hey.I flipped a 965 (pretty strong car) at the track no roll bar and OEM belts, Roof collapsed on drivers side about 30%. My helmet was pushed away from the crush and the OEM seatbelts allowed that deflection. I am sure I would have been really hurt(my neck) with harnesses because they would not allow this movement. I walked out with out a scratch after hanging upsidedown for 8 minutes.Just like the DAS ad. So the long and short of it is not to use harnesses without a roll bar or full cage. My new track car is now so equipped............ Elliot

Patling, if you don't mind me asking which 6 point Scroth harness so you have? So do you mean if I go with the 5 point harness, I will have to drill a hole on the stock seat bottom? Thanks.

Have a look to this thread : https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...t=98098&page=1 , it could possibly answer some of these questions. Good luck

interesting...i have that thread saved in my favorites. i keep going back to that article that was posted about the "myth of 4-5-6 pt harnesses" being unsafe in a car. what harness bar options are out there? speedware makes one, brey krause makes one (though quite expensive), sparco supposedly makes one but i think that might be the speedware one, DAS makes one (but its more like a roll bar/cage)...

I have the harness boxed up in storage awaitng the time that I get a track dedicated car or a roll bar/GT3 seats. It's their basic 6 point with the buckle you rotate a **** to release 5 of the belts. Ideally the anit-sub belt of the 5 point should come relatively straight up between the legs to keep the lap belts from sliding up in an accident. That means a hole in the middle of the seat, ala GT3 seats. Some people just route the anti-sub belt forward to the front of the seat then back up between their legs. In a frontal impact, the belt will compress the cushion on the front edge of the seat, effectively lengthening the belt and allowing the lap belts to ride up your belly, and this allows you to submarine under them. All in theory, but I would not want to test it.