New stereo help needed (long)

My questions: 1- is an amplifier this big really needed? 2- what is the major advantage in 6v versus 4v? 3- does the pricing sound about right? 4- can this be done without punching holes througout the car? 5- anything else I should be concerned about here? I'm not particularly demanding and the current hi-fi system is almost acceptable to me from a sound quality standpoint. But I can't live without my XM so I'm looking for a replacement system for the car. There's a local installer I've talked to (Car Tunes in Largo) and since I'm not really 'up' on car audio I'm looking for a second opinion from some of you guys that are. I currently have the CDR-220 HiFi option with 6 speaker locations and an amplifier. My minimum requirements: XM+MP3 head unit sub enclosure on rear deck (for tighter bass than stock) Concerns: The shop is low on inventory right now and they deal primarily in the Pioneer/Premiere line but they'll install whatever I want. I'm not that crazy about the design of the Pioneer Premiere equipment since the units have those OEL 'fast and furious' type displays. I'd rather have the unit blend a little better with at least orange illumination....but most of the stuff out there now is very flashy and gimmicky. Anyway the Premiere line doesn't do this and the Alpine units with variable color don't seem to have 6v pre-out. The shop owner seemed to think this was pretty important. Is this a big deal and what is the advantage of 6v pre-out over the more common 4v? The biggest suggestion they made that really surprised me was to get rid of the stock amplifier and go with what I consider a massive Autotek 5 channel amplifier, I think it was 500 watts and was the 6v variety. This thing was enormous (maybe 11" x 15"?) and would not fit in the stock amp location, thus needing to be mounted in a 'false floor' in the bottom of the trunk. They will also build a subwoofer enclosure for shelf behind the rear seats with either one or two 8" subs in it. Put in a cross-over to isolate the midrange and treble to the current 6 speakers (treble to front and rear, midrange to doors) and route all bass to the subwoofer. Cost was estimated at between $1100 and $1400 depending on time required and specific options but would definitely include amp, head unit, subwoofer+enclosure, installation and required cabling to isolate everything from the existing wiring harness. This was in my price range and seems like a decent deal to me. Also if anyone has any pictures of their in-dash unit (non video screen) please send me a snapshot or post inline as I'd like to take a look at it. Thanks in advance for any help, Keith

I have a few pics of what I have done, just click below. Mike

You may want to do a search as this has all been covered here many times before. I might suggest that you look for a shop that sells the brands that you want and will do the install too. Makes life a lot easier if you should have any problems or warranty needs. Whatever you end up doing, make sure the shop has the experience to work on your Pcar. Where in FL are you located??? Try this thread

I'm certainly no expert your Becker radio (pre MOST) but I believe a cheap (<$20) harness is available from Becker to enable aux in. If you can live with the existing system this may be a place to start. If you want to follow it up with a sub, there are amps out there that tap off speaker leads. These used to be looked down upon by installers (too simple to charge for) but they are gaining acceptance in high-end audio as a preferred way to drive a sub.

Forgot to coment on the pre out. I don't know what input level the 220 amp requires but its pretty much a non-issue. Our BMW's have a 5v output from the head unit and to reduce battery consumption on an iPod (keep the iPod's volume setting low) I stepped up the output from the iPod using an AudioControl Overdrive. Not cheap ($120) but is a quality and well thought out product versus some other approaches I looked at. If the interface for Becker's harness is under the dash (probably) you may want to pass on this and see if the sat tuner puts out sufficient line voltage. If I recall correctly, my Mom's XM tuner has multiple output voltage settings in the menu. Don't get carried away here as you might overdrive the amp and hear a bit of distortion. Since you can adjust it in the menu its simple to change settings. If you want MP3 and want to avoid wiring for power, go with the step up amp. We get between 8 and 10 hours of life off the iPod. The predominent variable is backlighting at night and shuffle mode use. During daylight driving/no shuffle mode it would not surprize me if I could get 12 hours of run time.

Hey Mike, your setup is essentially exactly what I'm looking at doing. Are you happy with the sound, and how much did it cost? After going to a couple of different shops it looks like I'll have to deal with the 'bling-bling' faceplate and goofy colours...sign o' the times I guess. Hey Sloth, I'm in the Clearwater/St.Petersburg area (Largo actually)....you're probably right about sticking with the brand the shop mainly deals with. It's just that I already have the Alpine XM tuner box out of my old car and wanted to re-use it if possible and save a few bucks. Guess there's always eBay though. I know this shop has been around for a while (they had a Boxster in last week so they're familiar with Porsches but if anyone has specific recommendations on other shops I'm open to looking around. I'm not planning on having this done at a big-box store (Circuit city, sound advice, best buy, etc.) as I've not been impressed with their attention to detail. So what's the deal with the higher-voltage output? Is it a gimmick or does it make a difference? Thanks, Keith

Keith, I'm in Dunedin. I'm also in the process of swapping some audio equipment out in my new, or at least new to me 996 cab. Might I suggest the alpine 7998 din and a half head unit. I have one in my closet that I'm dying to get in the new car. Very sweet piece and it will accept the xm tuner. As far as install, I have a friend in Orlando who owns several audio shops. He's been doing very high end cars for a long time now. I can hook you up with him if you like. It's a bit of a drive, but well worth it. Probably one of the best shops in FL. here's a link to the site: http://www.ultaudio.com

Hey Keith, Surely there are some good shops in the St. Pete/ Clearwater area. So long as you feel comfortable. I had Audio Connection in Ft. Myers do my install. They did my C2, and a have worked on several other 996's, a GT2, and a few Boxsters. If you feel like going for a drive I would highly recomend them. You can reach them at [phone removed]. Here is a link to my C2 stereo page, its a bit hokey but it has some pix... http://www.cardomain.com/member_page...=Porsche%20911

Not really. There aren't a whole lot of serious installers out this way. Nobody I would trust my car with. Ult Audio has done a ton of celebrity vehicles and has had cars featured in Car Audio Magazine. I can't speak for south FL, but they are the best that I've seen in central FL. I've known the owner personally (he used to be a neighbor) for about ten years and he takes a lot of pride in his work.

Should not make to much of a difference. 4v would work fine, but I would go for the 6v. I think of it like this... to get the same sound output, you would have to run the amps at a higher gain level with the lower voltage effectively raising the noise floor.

I'm going to buy a Nakamichi CD 400 for my head unit. It's suppose to be one of the best sounding out there and looks like a stock replacement - all black, not a bunch of colored jumping lcd's all over the place. Ken

Go to Audio Connection as suggested by Sloth. They have done complete installs on 3 Porsche cars and about 4 other cars for me. They are going to do a install of a Eclipse Nav double din fixed screen unit in my GT2. They will reuse your head unit, no problem.

Keith, I have approximately $3,500.00 invested and the sound is great. The only thing I would do different is use Boston Acoustic seperates in the front instead of the MB Quarts. Alpine is the only choice IMHO, especially if you already have the tuner. Good luck! Mike

I would listen to Bostons before buying them or installing them. Bostons are very colorful (colorful in a bad way, not clean or transparent) and my least favorite speakers SQ. The Boston pros are 3 ohms though and will take a lot of power (I have hit my Pros with 300X2 off a McIntosh MCC 602) and that is why they are somewhat liked in competition circles. I have 2 pairs of Pros and 3 pairs of Ralleys laying around I would cut you a great deal on. Cheap MB Quarts (Discus, Reference or Premium line) have aweful tweeters and must be attenuated at least 4 or 6 dbs to tone them down. The higher level of MB Quart, Q series QM or QSD or the QM 25 tweeters are smoother and sound much better. I have tried and currently own mostly just sitting around about every high end speaker other than the $ 7,000 Rainbow References and the new Phass speakers. Here is a picture of about % 75 of my speakers that I am not using. Have more unphotographed. The Dynaudios, made by Morell, are without a doubt the best sounding speaker under $ 1,000. The generic Morells and Rainbow Vanadium are also worth taking a look at in the $ 500 to $ 600 range. The CDT Euros are not bad for a little less. Head units and voltage: Nakamichi is good. I have an MB 100 in my boat. The 100 and head units with disc multi disk caddies are delicate and prone to problems which you don't have to worry about with the 400. Nakamichi has 24 bit DAC which is good and 4 volts is fine, but dual 24 converters with 8X oversampling is better. Most head units that advertise over 4 volts are gimicky and sound bad, even the Eclipses. I had the 8 volt Eclipse and it sounded aweful. Kind of partial to McIntosh and use the McIntosh in my car. McIntosh is only a 4 volt unit, but it has the cleanest and strongest pre-amp signal I have used in car audio. Here are some pics of my system in my 964. I have since redone my shelfing to fit the third McIntosh under the bonnetand I added an Audiocontrol DQX for crossover and equalization. Great Electronics. I am up to about $ 12,500 on my 964 system . . . but it sounds good and I have quick releases now to get weight out quickly. I can remove the sub box, the sub amp, and the 4 channel amp for the rear speakers and the rear crossover box in about 3 minutes. Most of these are ona single shelf and this leaves me with only the head unit, the DQX, and a six channelMcIntosh driving my Dynaudio 7 inch, 2.5 inch and scan revelator tweeters. Knocks off about 120 pounds and it actually sounds fine in trimmed down mode.

Holy cow!!! Man you guys are outta control....day-um! That's a serious load of audio equipment there DougH! You gotta find some place to put all that stuff. I sincerely appreciate all the info from you guys on installation shops but I hate to drive the car 2-3 hours away for audio work...my wife thinks I'm crazy enough as it is! lol After reading your thoughts and seeing some of these pics there's no doubt you guys are considerably more demanding than I am. I'll be the first to tell you I've got a tin-ear and y'all have more in one single component that I want to put in the whole system. I'll probably compromise on the look of the headunit but I just can't handle listening to AM/FM anymore it's just sooo bad. Maybe I'll see some of you guys around at central Florida events....hopefully I'll have a new soundsystem by then Thanks again for the advice and suggestions, Keith

I have a huge list of stuff for sale, but am too lazy to put it all up on ebay.

Here is some of my left over stuff that I recently listed on a car audio web site for sale. Love to get rid of some of this stuff. Mainly seeking interesting trades. If you have a Brax or McIntosh amp or a very high quality set of speakers such as Rainbow Platinums or Dynaudio Esotars, I will basically give you a full system and you will come out better on price. I will sell also, but prefer interesting trades. I already sold most of my sub and high end amps on ebay about 4 to 6 months ago. Here is a partial list of what I still have just sitting around collecting dust. I would also be up for interesting trades and etc. Right now, here is what I am no longer using speaker wise and am thinking about selling: 6.5 Focal Utopias Focal 165 K2s MB Quart QSD 218 MB Quart QM 215? (5.25s) (2) sets of CDT High Defintions 6.5 (raw drivers) (1) set of CDT High Definition 5.25s (raw drivers) (1) set of CDT Special eddition Carbon Fibre with tweeter enhancement (Never even hooked up) (1) set of McInotsh MSS 650s (used for less than a week) 5.25 Boston Pros (2) sets of Boston Ralley 5.25 components (1) set of Boston Ralley 6.5 components (1) set of Bsotn Rally Coaxles (used for less than 1 day) (1) set of MB Quart Reference series 6.5 (1) set of MB Quart Premium Series 5.25 (1) set of Cerwin Vega cheap *** 5.25 components (1) set of Diamond Hex 6.5 (3) set of MB Quart QM 25 tweeters (raw drivers) (2) sets of Dynaudio MD 100 tweeters (raw drivers with crossovers) (1) set of MB Quart 5.25 QSD woofers (raw drivers) (2) sets of MB Quart Q series or Music Comp crossovers Anyone need any of the above, feel free to make me an offer. Amp wise Pheonix Gold Titanium 600.2 Pheonix Gold Titanium 475.2 Pheonix Gold Tantrum 500.2 (2) Orion Extreme 900s (1) PPI 4125 Line drivers: (1) Pheonix Gold (little black box deal) (2) Auiobahn Bass drivers with phase and digital read out (1) Audiobahn full range line driver with digital read out 4 or 5 various Capacitors, mostly upper end stuff with low ESR not being used Head units Alpine 7843 Rockford Fosgate X8250 (Like the Dennon with dual 24 bit DAC converter (high end and never taken out of box) Clarion 8 series with dual 20 bit Clarion 9 series with dual 20 bit and roll out face Eclipse (8 volt) Nakamichi MD 100 (has error message for disc loader, but is a $ 100 dollar factory fix) Seriously, if anyone wants to make me an offer on any of the above, let me know. My wife would be happy for me to get this mess out of the house.

Here is pic of some of the electronics I for a couple inquiries on another site. I will be happy to photograph anything from the above list if interested. Not trying to make money here. Really looking for interesting trades and to make my wife happy by getting this stuf out of here.

Keith, I was doing some research for myself and came accross the new Becker head unit that has MP3 capabilities - I like the Becker since it's the OEM supplier for Porsche. Follow this link to: Receivers > Becker CD / Tape receivers > Monza MP3 7882 http://www.swstereo.com/

$530. are they nuts?

doug h. your mailbox is full. hit me with an email. [email removed]

Doug H - wish you posted sooner. My collection is just begining Focal 136K2 - don't fit in dash - probably going to eBay :-( MB Quart QM100 (these should fit in dash) Focal 7KXs (trying to build a 3-way Focals in doors w/MB Quarts in dash) Focal 100 polyglass coaxials - back fillers soundstream VGA500.4 (125x4 @4 ohm) Subs???? TBD Looking for set-up and subwoofer suggestions (new to audio - been reading message boards). The plan: drive the Focal 7KXs and Qm100s w/ch1&2 setting highpass at 60hz. Xover @ 200Hz down to the Focals (6 -200 hz) and up to the QM100s (use the musicomps 200 hz - up). Bridge ch 3&4 and drive subs - not sure on these yet - JL's?? and where to put them. I am thinking face up where the rear seats "were" (never use them). Make sense?? Question: can I drive the back fill speakers in parallel from the fronts (ch1&2). Do they need to be phased or attenuated, will this change the impendence? ok - I will stop there for now

Deputy: I cleaned out my PM box. I cannot email from home right now. Wet: Not sure of all the speaker sizes there and don't time right now to look them up, but here is what I do. I My sub and mid bass is crossed at 85 (changes between 80 and 90 depending on my mood), the mid bass is 85 to 800hz, the mids 800hz to 2.85k and the tweeter 2.85 K and up. The settings will depend alot on your speakers. Some tweeter and Focals and MB Quart may be in this group, need to be crossed at 3k to 3.5K. The mids is more of a factor as to how large and the dynamic response of the mid. The mid bass will probably play flat by itself all the way up to 3k. I would run a 6.5 ot 7 any lower than 80 and probably 85 or 90 is better to keep it real clean, unless you have Dynaudios which have a huge 3 inch voice coil and can handle the power and the lows.

Thanks Doug H. BTW the MB Quarts are 4", Focal 7KX are 7". Sill reading up on subs - would prefer a "tighter" sound then "boomy" - I guess that means sealed enclosures (don't have tons of power with the VGA). Next Q: I saw in a thread with two subs face up in the rear seats of a 996 (look like 8"). Thinking of doing the same - would you bridge an amp and drive two subs in separate enclosures in parrellel (next Q will be wiring DVS vs SVC)? With that install - would I have to drive each sub with its own channel?

One other Q - I see in some of the speaker documentation an Fs frequency. The Log chart shows this as a spike - is this its harmonic/resenence freq? Should I cross just above this? Thanks!!

I have 12s that are very tight and accurate. A good 12 inch SQ subwoofer is not necessarily boomy, but will be more accurate through the frequency range. Use a smaller box and hit it with a lot of power. Definitely use sealed. Ported is more for SPL. I would go at least ten inch with good quality drivers, 12W6v2, W7, IDMax, Eclipse Titanium, Diamond H6 Titanium. I prefer to have each sub in its own air tight chamber. I would use a 2 channel amp and run each sub at 2 ohms (Dual Voice coil 4ohm in parallel) off each channel. A lot of 2 channel amps when bridged are 4 ohms. You would have to get dual 4 ohm voice coils and run series with each to see 4 ohms. If you did SVC, you would have to get an 8 ohm woofer. If you try to run the bridged amp at 2 ohms or 1 ohm, you will liekly over heat it. Some amps are 2 ohm bridged though and some are one ohm stable, but just safer to not go that route. I would only run two subs or more off same channel if monoblock, but not bridged. Bridging and reducing reducing resistence can lead to clipping and heating issues.

I used to play around with resonance frequencies. The big deal is you don't really want to tune a port to it or boost at that frequncy or it will damage the sub. You can hear a resonance frequency in a sub with pink noise or you can find it with a PEQ and setting Q very narrow, boost high and tuning the frequency until you hear the spike in sound and it will also resonante in the box. When adjusting a PEQ, you find the resonance frequency and back two clicks off and boost there.

doug, your box is full again.

Thanks Doug - your a little beyond (OK - way beyond) my level. I am a good student - but a nubie in they audio arena (just reminiscing from college). But I am very interested in all that is technical - So how do I set up with the Fs (for all speakers)? Set the Xover Above the Fs for the Midbass and cover it with the sub? The do the same up the Hz chain? Do you think I can take the Focal 7"KX to 800 Hz?? I really appreciate you input - thanks!!

Anyone interested in picking up a new Brax amp for $1100 can get it directly from the the distributor, Peter Lufrano at the Autophile. Brax has new models in both their Helix and Brax amp line for 2004. I own 3 of the "old" amps that even for the most discriminating audiophile, leaves nothing to desire. Retail price is $2000(rarely discounted or found used on eBay)