Over from the BMW camp, with a few questions

Hello all, I'm a long time bimmer guy, and I'm thinking of moving on from my E36 M3, perhaps turning it into a dedicated track car. Anyway, I'm looking to pick up a C2, and was wondering about the behind-the-wheel impressions of the changes from 01 to 02. Obviously, displacement grew .2L, and there is more power and tq. Since weight also went up, is the difference in power discernable? What I'm keenly interested in knowing, however, is whether the differences in the chassis/structure can be felt. I read that the pillars were reinforced, and that the chassis is reputedly stiffer. Thoughts? In this regard, I've been tempted to pick up an E46 M3 on this basis alone, as I can detect the difference in body integrity on the road, particularly over poor roads. Finally, on any of the 996 cars, how is NVH as cars start getting up in miles? My 70k E36 has an assortment of creaks, groans, and tends to shudder over poor road surfaces. It doesn't have that 'carved from a block of steel' feeling. It's particularly noticable when I hop in my business partners' Lexus and Audi. Fortunately, none of this is detectable with a helmet on and on the track, where it feels great. Thanks all, I appreciate your input. cc: 6speedonline (hope that's cool)

FWIW, I drive a 99 996 and a 00 M5. Qualitatively speaking, the 996 feels very, very rigid and light; the M5 is rock-solid and heavy. Both are tons of fun in their own ways, and neither has a squeak, rattle, or any other annoyance. Steve PS: buy a 996 and keep the M3.

Ahh, solid and light. Exactly what I wanted to hear. M5s are indeed impressive as well. I went to Spartanburg, at BMW's Performance Center, and got to rag on M5's at BMW's small test track at that facility. Given that experience, I could never buy an M5 to do double duty street and track. But what a street car! I'm thinking that my E36 is not really worth anything, and the 20k I could get for it (give or take a few thousand) would no be worth giving up a track car.

I have owned two E36 M3's. Loved them both. The last one went to 80,000 miles and then fell apart. A/C condesor and then 9 months later the evaporator core. Thermostat replaced then one week later water pump which blew off the top radiator hose and broke off the plastic radiator top. I loved the car but let it go. I personally could tell the difference between a 2001 and 2002 996 with regards to power and the 2002 seemed to be tighter and stiffer. However, Porsche also improved the interior with better materials which may contribute to the perception of a tighter car. I voted with my dollars and bought a 2002 C4S. The first car that I felt could match the handling of the M3 which was awesome. I have let friends with earlier 996's drive my car and they state they can feel the power differnce. Handling is obviously differnt because I have all wheel drive. I think UberXY is giving you good advice. Just get rid of that sorry water pump with the plastic impellor. I learned that too late!

Welcome frayed, I know you from the bimmerworld.com forums! You'll love the C2 both on the street and track (you will take it to the track at some point!). Frankly, I'd go for the '02 just for the motor I'm on my second E36 M3 and it is now a dedicated track car. So, yes, keep it for the track; there aren't many cars that make for a better and cost-effective track car. But, as others have said, you should upgrade/replace a few things; the upper radiator inlet is plastic and usually breaks after about 50K so upgrade to an aluminum radiator (with higher capacity), water pump, and it sounds like you should replace you suspension bushings (I went with delrin replacements and really like them a lot; the crispness you speak of will come back!). The cool thing about having both of these cars is how different they handle so it is fun to switch back and forth!

dhud, great comments. I'm pretty demanding on a car from the handling side of things, and my E36 is buttoned down with all sorts of modifications all in a quest for A Faster Lap. I drove a 996 Targa at the dealership, and was underwhelmed from a handling perspective. However, whatever car I get would get the factory sports suspension or a well engineered c/o kit (I've had H&R and Ground Control c/o kits, and have seat time with the PSS9 kit). I've tried to not let my experience with the factory suspension on the targa sour my passion for the car. pstoppani, Yeah, that's me. I moderate the E36 M3 forum on bimmerforums.com. I am a seriously a dyed in the wool bimmerhead, but the new banglized cars have me in physical pain, and with 70k on the clock of my car and some cash in my pocket, I've got the 'new car' bug. I think a used 996 is the only car that is within reach financially (I made a promise to myself not to finance my next car), and has the combination of timeless style and driver involvement that incites passion. I think that's it in a nutshell. . . .I demand a car that instills pasion from its owners, and reminds you of why every time you turn the key. BTW, the E36 should be a monster when I'm done with it: it's headed out to Salt Lake City to have Jim Conforti and Josh at Eurosport install and custom dyno tune a twin screw blower. M5 power combined with 3200lbs should be fun. We'll see if I can keep rubber on the tires.

Jeff, given your passion, I'd forget about the factory sport suspension and go straight to your favorite coilovers. The factory sport suspension is kind of like Dinan's suspension; a bit more aggressive, but still a little sloppy. Having said that, since my 911 is primarily a daily driver, the sport suspension is fine for me and I leave the hardcore suspension for the M3 (Moton c/o is going on in a few weeks). If you were underwhelmed by the 996 though, you probably didn't drive it fast enough These cars are so much funner than an M3 when you really get going faster Have fun with the blown M3, mine has been blown for 3 years and love it (see link in sig for details).

well, i guess i'll be the first person to answer your questions since everybody else is busy talking about what to do with your M3! i've driven both a 2001 C4 3.4 (mine) and a 2003 C2 3.6 (my best buddy's) 996 a good bit, and here's my impressions. i did pretty spirited driving in both (somewhat insane driving in mine, to be honest), and topped out at about 105 MPH in his car, so i have a pretty decent basis for comparison. Power No noticeable difference at all. Zero, nada, none. Handling This is a tough one since the other car is RWD, not AWD. My C4 felt much more planted on the road. The C2 felt more twitchy and loose. Given the drivetrain differences, assessing the stiffness is difficult, but I didn't really notice any difference. Overall Other than the AWD, they pretty much felt like the same car. The one thing I really didn't like about the newer 996? the digital speedo readout on mine is in the center on the bottom of the tach, but in his it's on the left on the bottom of the analog speedo. this was very difficult to read. best of luck in whatever you buy!

If you compared a c4 to a c2 I don't thing you really answered his questions either I also think your butt dyno is a bit dull if you didn't feel a power difference.

There have been a variety of improvements from 2001 to 2002. Variocam changed to Variocam Plus, which gives not only more power, but more usable power. Chassis has been stiffened, which you already know. There are probably other improvements that just aren't advertised. The 1999 996 is no slouch, but as a general rule, it is best to buy the newest model you can afford.

I had an E36 M3 and loved its wonderfully intuitive handling and its sharp responses. The steering is awesome and it is easy to drive the car fast and with precision. I sold it and got a 540-6 speed because it was my only car and I needed more room. The 540 was a boat and I put a dinan stage 3 suspension on it which improved it but it never handled remotely as well as the M3. When I bought another daily driver (Xterra) and had the 540 in my garage as my special occasion car, I wished I had just kept the M3. I looked at E46 M3's and Boxsters for a while but decided to step up to an 03 C2. Within the first 1000 miles, I installed PSS-9's and GT 3 sway bars. In that configuration, its a killer car. Its much faster than an E36 M3, the steering is better, it had much better brakes and, while its tougher to drive well given the rear weight bias, its more rewarding. IMHO, its far superior to the E46 M3, which is heavy, has somewhat imprecise steering, and needs to be wound out to extract power. I'm going to keep it for a while. Perhaps however I'll add an E30 M3 to my grage as my next BMW.

oh jeez, you're a pain! jk! the HP difference is only about 6%, so it's not easy to feel. the relative 0-60, 60-90, 0-100 times of the cars are almost the same. since it was my buddy's car (he's my best man at my wedding), i could really push it hard, and i didn't really notice a difference in power! i'm no dyno, but i got to drive the cars back to back more than a few times and never noticed a significant power difference.

my '00 996 creaks, has since new. every 996 i've driven does the same to some degree...its mostly interior trim rubbing or rattling, the body shell itself is very rigid. i now have over 65k miles and the car has been bullet proof (save for a defective gearbox) i drive it within an inch of it's life more often than not and i can see this car holding up nicely, well past 100k miles.

FWIW, I drove a couple of 2002s and didn't think it was faster either. Torquier? Yes, and therefore a bit more "driveable".... But it didn't seem to be any faster, so long as you were going to wind both of them out all the way. I agree with all the comments on the E36 M3. I still love ours, it has over 100K on the clock. Still the best balanced overall performance car I've driven. I prefer the 996, which I think is a bit more fun, but the E36 is so perfectly balanced that it never seems to get out of line. It makes a great track car too. I seem to recall some 4dr M3s kicking some Porsche butt in World Challenge and ALMS racing :-) Ryce - I have a Lotus Elise coming soon and am considering selling my very nice E30 M3 if you ever want to go that route. -Dave '00 996 c2 aero '00 Audi a4 1.8tq '89 M3 '97 M3 '05 Lotus Elise ordered....