Driven DI40 / DT40 & pca Video

Posting a link to the PCA video on Fuel & Oils. They highly recommend Driven DI40, even for non DI engines (rather than using DT40). Has anyone been following this practice? You Tube

Good video. I am about to switch from Millers Nano 5w40 to Driven DI40. I have used Millers Nano 5w40 for years and no question its been a great oil on and off the track. UAO oil tests have been great, as well as a borescope last year tells me my bores are in great shape on my a 2002 C2 with 61,500 miles and 14 years of DE and 21 years of street driving. Spoke to Lake a few weeks ago on my latest oil test after driving 2400 miles from Chicago to Phila and back about what Driven oil he would recomend to improve viscosity but not loose the advantages of Millers Nano on and off the track. He suggested DI40. I Just changed my oil using Millers 5w40 in prep for a track day this friday. I am going to test the oil after the event to get one more test in as a reference point. Then i will go to DI40 and start testing it as I get some miles on it. I plan on posting all the tests here on RL for a comparison. Hope it helps.

Thanks for sharing - going to check out the video now. I currently use Driven FR50 with very good UOA results and asked Lake about what he thought about Valvoline VR1 for track use. Seems like a good option as its formulated for that use case, I like the weight it comes in and is easily available everywhere at a good cost. His response was: " In regards to oil for future track days, I would not suggest swapping oils. Instead, just run the Driven DI40 all the time. We see very good results from that oil with folks that street drive and track their cars. The DI40 can be used in the M96 engines. We’ve seen great results with that in those engines for mixed street and track use. Of course, you can still use the FR50 as it is working well for you. Just don’t swap between different oils when you go to the track."

Great information I’m shocked I’ve be enlightened damn

I need to double check, but I'm pretty sure Jake Raby says the dt40 is for non direct injection engines, specifically our 996s, and the DI is for the direct injection engines. PCA doesn't always get everything perfect.

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That's correct, however, it's not to say that things don't ever change and that you can't use the oil in an M96. PCA is simply the platform for the information. The information came from Lake Speed, the man that helped formulate DT40 so I'd trust him first. He also has the UOA results for the oil in non-DI engines. Jake also suggested running a Valvoline Restore Cummins Truck oil if you have bore scoring....

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The Cummins Valvoline Restore oil has been discontinued. It was also a really good oil to use if an engine was poorly serviced and needed a good cleanup without resorting to use an engine flush product. The Restore oil was designed to de-carbon pistons and clean ring grooves to restore proper ring function. It was a unique product for sure. The DI40 for sure can be used in place of the DT40, however it does cost a bunch more, and for that reason alone most will continue to use the DT40 instead. The biggest difference between the two is the DI40 has less detergency and a tad less ZDDP (to meet the ACEA C2/C3 standard), making it suitable for engines with particulate filters while also providing LSPI protection. Another big difference is the DI40 has no ester and has more mPAO with a higher HTHS viscosity, where DT40 does have a healthy dose of ester.

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Charles - I learned about it from Lake as he recommended a short drain interval since my engine might have seen some questionable OCIs. All my wear metals look great, very low fuel dilution and overall great several UOA but she's still burning some oil at around 1l per 600mi. I wouldn't say it's been discontinued as I was able to get 3 gallons of it few weeks ago. It's something you'll need to order from a Cummins center so it's definitely not easily available and requires some leg work and calls to purchase. I spent about 20ish minutes on the phone ordering it. Actually, Valvoline should be releasing gen2 of the oil soon so they may be trying to completely get rid of gen1 before rolling it out. https://partner.valvolineglobal.com/...-blue-restore/

Good video, and love oil war threads lol. I am pretty OCD and researched the best oil for my 99 boxster forever. There lots of good oils out there, but between the folks that know the most about these engines and actual oil analysis is where the rubber meets the road. I have switched to Driven DT40 the last 3 years. I am a big moly proponent in oil, and driven has the most that I have seen. Since I could not find a recent virgin oil analysis on the current version of DT40, had one done myself which I will share........your welcome! But Looking at my uoa sold me on it. No I dont drive a lot of miles, 2-3k max per year, but go on a lot of spirited mountain drives and will stick to at least annual changes. The first oil change on the far right was mobile one, the second I upgraded to Motul Excess, and the last two analysis are Driven DT40. As long as the wear metals continue to hold steady or decline with similar mileage figures, not sure why I would switch to anything else? I just dont pay much attention to the Blackstone comments, and love it how lake mentioned about their silicon comments, and why important to monitor it in these engines. ​​​​​​​

[QUOTE=Charles Navarro;18781215]The Cummins Valvoline Restore oil has been discontinued. It was also a really good oil to use if an engine was poorly serviced and needed a good cleanup without resorting to use an engine flush product. The Restore oil was designed to de-carbon pistons and clean ring grooves to restore proper ring function. It was a unique product for sure. The DI40 for sure can be used in place of the DT40, however it does cost a bunch more, and for that reason alone most will continue to use the DT40 instead. The biggest difference between the two is the DI40 has less detergency and a tad less ZDDP (to meet the ACEA C2/C3 standard), making it suitable for engines with particulate filters while also providing LSPI protection. Another big difference is the DI40 has no ester and has more mPAO with a higher HTHS viscosity, where DT40 does have a healthy dose of ester.[/QUOTE @Charles Navarro I have been using DT40 since I purchased my �99 996 about 1.5 years ago. I use my car for street, autocross and DEs. For us non chemist, what is the practical difference for the DI and DT oils and do you recommend it for my car?

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[QUOTE=Bbiela;18790290] I had this discussion of DT40 vs DI40 yesterday with Bill Alexander, Driven's Tribologist. He personally uses DT40 in all his personal vehicles and he still prefers the DT40 over the DI40 for a port injected engine. I personally have never run DI40 in a port injected engine, but I am going to put DI40 into my '06 GTI which current runs DT40 so I can do a comparison. I'll be sure to share the results. A while back I did discuss DT40 vs DI40 if used on the track (although XP9 would be a much better choice for track use), and Lake felt that DI40 would be better suited than DT40 for track use. The only functional difference that I see making DI40 better than DT40 is that it has a higher HTHS viscosity (measured at 150C) which is beneficial when the engine is going to see higher operating temperatures as this is a direct measure of film thickness. I hope this answers your question.

Yeah, higher viscosity is why Lake mentioned DI40 vs Millers 5w40 and the ability to do both street and track. Millers has a 10w50 oil which could help with viscosity, but I am going to give DI40 a shot, unless there is a more optimal choice. I would prefer to run one oil versus 2 different oils for street and track.

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[QUOTE=Charles Navarro;18791572] For a direct injection engine, can DT40 be run? An engine builder I talked to recommended DT40 for direct injection instead of the DI40 and wondering what benefits/cons there would be to using DT40 in the MA1.70

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[QUOTE=rosemont83;18874799] Technically, yes, DT40 can be run in an engine with direct injection as long as the engine is normally aspirated. If turbo or supercharged, an oil formulated for LSPI protection is required, like DI40.

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[QUOTE=BRS-LN;18877763] I meant in the 3.8 turbo 997.2. Guessing I should get the DT40 out right away? Or would running it for a few thousand miles be fine? Had the engine builder change the oil and they used DT40 in a 997.2 turbo. Have only driven 30 miles since the oil change so want to make sure to fix if needed before really driving.

I have a question is it ok to change oil from factory fill on my 11 TTS even at 80k it’s been oil serviced only at the dealer before me I bought a case of DI40 for the next service

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Subscribed for when you share the results of running DI40 in your port injected engine. I hypothesize that your results with DI40 will be every bit as good as DT40. Thank you for all the information you have shared.

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Agree. DI40 also has a dispersant to help hold soot in suspension and prevent agglomeration.... I personally would run DI40 in a port injected engine without a second thought but would not run DT40 in a direct injected engine.

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Ditto and ditto.

DI40 Oil Tests 2002 996 C2 w/ 61,500 miles. ​​​ I have four (4) different Speediagnostix tests on my oil since 08/04/2021, which was in preparation for a borescope and 10-Yr engine refresh. Historically I have used Millers Nano 5W40 for years and Lake suggested using DI40 to improve the viscosity number. The tests and oil used is below. As a side note, the engine is in great shape. Bores and oil tests are in good shape. No debris was found in sump nor in oil filter. Test Info Test 1 (Millers Nano 5W40) was on 08/04/21 in prep for a borescope and then engine refresh. Test 2 (Millers Nano 5W40) was on 04/15/23 after engine parts refresh and then a 2400 mile road trip from Chicago to Phila and back. Test 3 (Millers Nano 5W40) was on 05/06/23 after a PCA track day. Test 4 (DI40) was on 07/01/23 after a PCA track day. Below are the test results from all 4 tests. You can see the additives in both oils which are robust. You will also notice that it looks like Millers changed their additive package sometime last year. Below are the test results comparing "new" out of the bottle oil from Millers Nano 5W40, DI40 and Castrol Syntech 5W/40 which I run in my Audi Q7 and A5 per the dealer recommendation. You will find the comparisons interesting.

Sure, would be interested to see it. Millers virgin analysis should look similar to the Driven line -- high ZDDP oil etc. Driven DI40 holds its viscosity the best of any oil I have ever seen. IMHO the Audi Q7 and A5 need Driven DI40 more than any other engines I have experience with. I ditched Castrol literally the day my CPO expired on my 2014 Q5 2.0T, drained it all out and put in DI40. If your Q7 is a 3.0T and the A5 is a 2.0T they are both using a slotted oil control ring and piston design with drain back holes that can and do get clogged with soot/carbon. I have been able to escape this at 120K miles using DI40 at short OCIs miles but IMHO controlling soot is the #1 priority on a DFI engine. It causes timing chains to stretch and cakes on the rings which inhibits them from being able to expand the way they need to for good ring seal.... and it is what causes oil to come out after just 1-2K miles looking black as night. Here is the DI40 virgin sample:

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Gotta agree with you. While I change my oil 2-3 times a year in my Audis, I would like to go to DI40 with both. Now the wrestling match starts with the dealer and CPO.

Thanks for posting this. I knew Castrol was using Titanium, I do see see that in the sample, and no moly. One thing I find interesting about the Millers is it seems to use up the Moly pretty quickly -- I do not see such a sharp reduction in moly in my DI40 samples vs virgin. You can see the DI40 has much higher viscosity. Do you know why the 6/3/22 Millers sample with 0 miles has 20 ppm tin? Also what caused your fuel dilution to drop so much between Test 1 and 2? I am assuming the engine refresh and you got new injectors? Thanks for posting this information.

Test 1 was before the refresh. Test 2 was after. Probably tested better due to new fuel injectors, but i also replaced my IMS Retro, RMS, spark plugs, ignition coils, maf, oil cooler, and replaced my failed Motorsports AOS with the UAOS track, as well as a boatload of other things I can't remember as I write this. No idea about the tin. May be an anomaly or due to a change in Millers formula. DI40 test after my track day came back with normal readings. But I'll keep an eye on it, which is the great thing about these tests.

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I just talked to Lake. The oxidation value of 40.0 above is NOT correct and was a mistake (it should be more like 5.0), he told me it is the value for DT40. In light of this information this makes a lot more sense as I was very confused after Charles said DI40 has no ester but i saw such a high oxidation value. What I find fascinating is that due to their lack of polarity usually PAOs require a co-base stock like an ester to hold additives in suspension -- how that is achieved with DI40 Lake told me is their trade secret (makes sense). Hats off to Lake for literally responding to me 3 minutes after I emailed him. That dude is one Hell of a nice guy....... Also GC996 thank you for posting the virgin reports including DI40 which helped me to detect this error (was wondering why they were so much different for oxidation).

This video explains how DI40 holds its viscosity so well. Because it is mPAO, a polyalphaolefin (PAO) catalyzed with metallocene (mPAO) that results in a very homogenous chemical structure yielding several advantages. With Boron Trifluoride catalysts for example they don't have control over where each Carbon ultimately connects in the backbone structure -- and this leads to an irregular branch structure with more double carbon bonds. But when the metallocene catalyst is used instead you can see the resulting branch structure is very regular and therefore mPAOs will have almost no double carbon bonds (single carbon bonds are more stable and therefore desirable) because they are easily saturatable and are homogenous. This results in various advantages including a higher viscosity index, excellent oxidation stability, lower traction coefficient, and less foaming/volatilization. Oil is just chemistry. You Tube

I'm driving myself insane in trying to decide to make my next oil change Driven DT40 or Liqui Moly Leichtlauf, anyone have a virgin sample of Liqui Moly Leichtlauf?

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Nothing better than a Speednostic 3 pack and a few more virgin oil tests. DT40, Liquid Moly and pick one more! Love to see more guys do it and post here. We can all use the info.

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you know, what I might have to, I haven�t been able to get a straight answer about moly content. I have molygen for my S4, Mobil 1 5w-40, might buy Porsche Classic 5w-50. Might swap the Mobil 1 for Motul X-cess 5w-40.

Be careful. Oil testing is highly addictive.

Checkout the Speediagnostix website that has virgin analysis posted for several oils including for two of the ones discussed: https://www.speediagnostix.com/new-oil-analysis Driven DT40: https://www.speediagnostix.com/new-o...acing-oil-dt40 Liqui Moly Molygen 5W-40: https://www.speediagnostix.com/new-o...iquimoly-5w-40

Good stuff. Lake does a great job. I do appreciate seeing the virgin metal content on the full test in addition to the additives. It explains quite a bit eliminating the need for concerns. Case in point would be my Test 3 with Millers and the high tin content in the virgin Millers creating a high tin content in my test. Turns out it's caused by the oil, not the engine. Love these tests. Next week I test my daughter's Subaru. They run a specially formulated "Subaru 0w20" oil in the car as the standard. 0w20? Looking forward to seeing what's in the oil. Good thing we change it 2x a year. Subaru will not provide advice on using any other oil. Crazy.

100% agree, you need the virgin sample of the oil you are running because it is required in order to be able to benchmark your UOA results. Yes, your Millers tin is a perfect example. You can see it starts out at 20ppm in the virgin sample but quickly drops to 8ppm in the 300 mile sample and then to 1 ppm in the 2400 sample. Lake knows what is is talking about which is a very rare thing in this industry (or maybe in general). If I re-ring my engine I am thinking about using his gapless rings as the concept makes a lot of sense to me. With the aggressive push to meet required imposed emission standards OEMs have gone to super thin oils (among various other changes like most new cars are turbocharged etc to boost fuel economy). Many of the newer engines are going to 30 grade, 20 grade, and I have even seen thinner like 16 grade hot viscosity. That is pretty wild. Even on my 2014 Audi Q5 2.0T you can run 30 grade or 40 grade and there is a DI30 (and DI20 as well for the Subaru) but I run DI40. On Subaru not giving advice on oil, this is what scared me into sticking with dealer oil changes until my CPO expired. It doesn't work so well on the 996 and 997s but on some of the newer cars the oil filter is on top of the engine and they are designed to be used with an extractor (won't get caught up in the oil baffle or otherwise) once you are "allowed" to do your own oil changes. I use one on my Audi and now can do oil changes in literally 5 mins of actual work (the other 15 minutes I am off doing something else while it extracts) so I don't even have to spend time dropping it off at the dealer or waiting an hour for them to do it when it only takes 10 minutes to do even drain-and-fill.

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the thin oil trend is wild. I too am using an extractor on my wife's VW Alltrack and drain to fill time is amazing. The Alltrack has been dealer maintained and have been using and I am still using the dealer Castrol. I assume the DI40 has been treating you well for the Audi, might make the switch to DI40 for the Alltrack and DT40 for the 996 and maybe the B7 S4. We'll see after I do some virgin analysis.

Agree. I am using a little hand pump extractor, not a pneumatic, pretty much as basic as you can get, costs $60, and it works fantastic -- gets all 5 quarts out effortlessly. Driven DI40 has been great in my Audi and it is my favorite oil for street use. In some sense it really is the perfect oil for these newer engines because of the lower Calcium level and almost no Sodium for LSPI since they are all turbocharged, has soot protection for direct injection, HTHS protection which is important for your rings, low volatility to prevent intake buildup, and a bunch of other benefits. While my personal situation is only one data point and I don't extrapolate too much out of it I can say that at 120K miles I don't have an oil consumption problem and my timing chain isn't stretching, which is very rare. And my UOAs look great. Here is my UOA on my 2014 Audi Q5 2.0T with DI40 just for reference. This was taken at 100K miles (5/3/22 sample) and you can see my previous sample at 85K (4/12/21 sample) which is the first time I switched to DI40, I was using 5K OCIs in between. These tests were taken a year apart at the exact same time of year and the exact same time/mileage to control for winter blend fuel and environmental factors. You can see my fuel dilution dropped significantly which is due to DI40 inherently holding less fuel in suspension. The reason why the oxidation level is so high in the 4/12/21 sample is because my indy misunderstood me and put an oil in it with ester after he did some work which I then took out but I didn't use a flush oil so there is some cross contamination. The 100K sample is fully clean......

I thought I heard Lake or Charles talk about this in the video but I�ve scrubbed through it and couldn�t find it. Wondering if you all have advice about fuel and if there is are levels of preference to abide by. Example� 93 e0 top tier > 93 e0 non top tier > 91 e10/15 top tier > 91 e10/15 non top tier with octane booster etc. is there something you all follow?

Somewhere on LNs website is an article on it, as well as a YouTube video from either PCA, FSI, LN, Lake or one with all parties.

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I'll summarize. If you have access to REC90, you don't need any additives. Just beware of phase separation when switching from E10 to REC90. The REC90 can't hold any water in suspension, unlike the E10. So don't switch back and forth between REC90 and E10. If you can't get REC90 all the time, you are better off sticking to E10 and using an additive in the fuel. For those of us without access to ethanol free fuels, run a top tier fuel. In my case, there are no top tier gas stations anywhere on my route between home and the shop (60 mi drive), so I run a bottle of injector defender every other tank of gas. If you use a top tier fuel, running one bottle every 2500-3000 miles is recommended. I know many of you have other Porsches - if it's older than a Boxster or 996, you need to run injector defender (or carb defender) to protect the fuel system from the ethanol enriched fuels. Porsche put out a bulletin many years ago stating the 993 and earlier models are not compatible with anything greater than E5. Lastly, if your tank of E10 isn't going to be used up in a month, you need to add a stabilizer (i.e. injector defender) as these fuels can go bad very quickly, unlike REC90 which is stable to up to a year easily (I'd still use a stabilizer).

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sounds like even though I have 93 ethanol free, not REC90 and not top tier, around, I�m still better off with top tier along with Defender right?

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REC90 is 90 octane ethanol free, so if you have ethanol free 93 octane, that's even better. Typically ethanol free fuels are top treated like a top tier fuel, however it's not a bad idea to run a bottle of carb or injector defender every 2500-3000 miles regardless. More often won't hurt anything but your wallet.

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this was exactly what I was looking for! Thank you! Will look at getting some Defender soon and order or preference will be 93 E0 91 Top Tier E10/15 and defender ever 2500-3000. Thank you for clarifying! @Charles Navarro References for others, You Tube https://lnengineering.com/free-downl...nol-fuels.html

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Interested in these comments and the use of Cummins Valvoline Restore. Many GDI engines for example can get carbon in the rings so I am curious if you have experience with this product (I do not) -- normally I would be skeptical about a product like this but since Lake has experience with it and says it works it has piqued my attention. What are the steps to use Cummins Valvoline Restore? What is your experience using it? -- did it free up badly stuck rings or were they just a little gummed up? Was the engine GDI or port injected? Reading here it sounds like you run it for one OCI (presumably a pretty short one). Can you use it with any engine? Are there any caveats? https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publi...5-48df3793b338

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We've tried it a few times where customers did not break in their engines properly or they had fuel injector issues that led to high oil consumption. After a few thousands miles of running the Cummins Restore oil, consumption was greatly reduced and crankcase manometer vacuum readings were improved.

TYVM for the information, Charles, so interesting. I had sent Lake a brief note to ask his take and he also recommended it, said similar to what you advise. His advice was not to use it for GDI carbon build up in the ring grooves until oil consumption gets to 1 quart / 1,000 miles, and at that point run the Cummins one time for a 3K OCI and immediately switch back to DI40. He stressed that it's important to maintain your oil chemistry and not be switching things around without a good reason, which I already was in 110% agreement with (common mistake I see some making is trying different oils every OCI and then judging which one is better using oil consumption as the metric). I asked him if he knows what the difference is in the Gen 2 reformulated product and he kindly responded "In regards to the new formula, I’ve not used it, but I do now what the Premium Blue Gen 2 additive package is. As such, I’m sure this is the same base oils as the original but with a new additive package." My oil consumption is nowhere near this rate especially since I switched to very short 2-3K OCIs but if it ever was I would definitely take Lake's advice and try it for an OCI. Also the change of consumption is indicative as an engine that burned a quart every 1,000 since new this same advice wouldn't necessarily apply to. When you say the manometer readings improved I suppose this is because of improved ring seal after the rings got more freed up. How much did the vacuum reading improve out of curiosity? Couple " H2O? Sorry for all the questions, you guys just have too much good information/experience, you can cut me off at any time .....

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If my memory serves me, it was about a 10-15% increase in manometer readings.

Guess which oil Summit Racing just ran out of ?... They don't have any of the Driven fuel injector cleaner either.. grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

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Yup, we are all out of DI40 and Injector/Carb Defender. Of all things, there is supply chain issue with packaging that is holding up production. I'll throw out that if you have a normally aspirated direct injected engine, you can run DT40 in lieu of DI40. However, if you have a direct injected model with forced induction, you're out of luck.

I posted this a couple weeks ago in the 997 oil analysis thread. This is because Driven is switching DI40 from 0W-40 to 5W-40, which must be for marketing because DI40 already was between a 0W and 5W. So on the face of it it's a lot of trouble and changing labels for basically nothing. If anyone gets in a bind I have a bunch of cases of DI40 in my basement for this exact reason and could sell a few bottles at cost if you PM me. Website says back in stock 10/1 but talking to Driven a week or two ago, it sounds like they may be out of DI40 until around Nov 1st......... they don't really know for sure at this point.

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Hi Charles and plpete84. I am confused, not sure if you can offer any more information (quite possibly not, I just figured I would ask and also let you know what I found). I just called and spoke with someone at the Cummins, they put me on hold for about 5 minutes and came back and said they have the Cummins Valvoline Restore they can sell for $75/gallon. I asked if there was a generation 2 of this oil or if the Premium Blue Restore product was it and she said very clearly no, that is not generation 2 and it is a separate product all together from the Cummins Valvoline Restore. It would seem there is no generation 2 of this oil and it has not been discontinued.

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I can't speak to what is or may be discontinued but I was also able to get my hands on the Restore version of the oil. The link I provided is directly from Valvoline although I have no clue when the version two will be actually available. When you said you called Cummins, was this their HQ or a local distributor? I spoke with a distribution center which sold me the oil. It's quite possible that they want to completely sell off version 1 of the oil before bringing out v2. This is a highly specific product that you won't find anywhere else other than Cummins dealers so it's quite possible who you spoke with might have not known that. The link to the one pager is still live and specifically states: "PREMIUM BLUE� RESTORE GEN 2 The next evolution of our patented technology is now CK-4 compatible. This advanced engine clean-up in a single service is the only of it's kind, specifically formulated to treat hard carbon deposits that can increase oil consumption rates." I think the biggest update seems to be the CK-4 compatibility.

Thank you for the information and reply. It was the local Cummins Sales & Service in my city that I spoke with and the engine department that takes orders (option 1 on the phone). I was also a little confused because I read the Premium Blue information and it talks about how it is designed to clean the rings and such but Cummins was very clear this is a different product -- could just be that the person didn't know what they are talking about, that is sort of what I was trying to understand, or possibly there will be a generation 2 later but they aren't aware yet. This is a fascinating product, makes me wonder why OEMs don't use it before they are forced to re-ring engines from class actions, etc. I believe you bought it back in May, have you had a chance to use it yet? Was wondering what your experience is, if any. Thanks to everyone for all the information.

Out if curiosity, has anybody run an oil test of the Restore 1 to see what's in it?

I have not but would love to know what's in it and how it cleans the rings. I personally find this product fascinating given that reputable folks have experience with it and say it was effective.

@silver_tt In my experience it sometimes takes a few calls to dig up some niche information such as in this case. I made about 3 calls and it took me a while to source the oil but got it in the end. It didn't really help my situation but I was able to cross that off my list. Turns out I have bigger issues going on but more on that in my own thread to keep this on track. Even though I called a Cummins center I needed to be very specific in what I wanted and it still took a while. The price they quoted you is about right and it's not an oil you run for a full OCI. Once I used up my 3 gallons through consumption I went back to Drive FR50. It's a great product though and was specifically designed to clean rings. It has worked in many cases I was told by Lake but he made no promises. @GC996 - this guy named Lake with smart looking glasses already did the virgin sample analysis https://www.speediagnostix.com/new-o...e-premium-blue

TYVM. Yes, if I needed to run it I would run it for a 3K mile OCI and immediately switch back to DI40. I actually change my oil every 2,500 miles anyway It looks like it's an ester base oil using magnesium as the primary detergent, I can see why you shouldn't run it for a long period. Curious how this could compare to a UOA of "Cummings Valvoline Restore". If I ever need to use it I will get a UOA for it at the same time to share.

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It's been years since I had any feedback from someone running this oil, but if memory serves me, oil consumption started to increase after about 1500-2000 miles with the restore oil. Unless you have a specific issue you are trying to resolve, I would recommend against using the Restore oil.

I'm not surprised as it's pretty thin at 10w-30 and our engines like something a bit thicker. Regardless, it's a short interval use product. I do recall Jake recommending this oil due to the oil's cleaning properties for those that are in line waiting for a rebuild and continue to drive their car.

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Hey Charles, TYVM for your feedback as always. Here was my idea let me know what you think: I have recommended this product to try to help folks with a 2.0T or 3.0T that have severe oil consumption that is caused specifically due to the low tension rings and drain holes clogged with DFI soot/carbon. I am talking about folks with a level of consumption like 1 quart per 250 miles and my engine doesn't burn anywhere near this amount of oil so I will likely not be using the product myself but am fascinated by its chemistry. When you say oil consumption started to increase after about 1500-2000 with the restore oil do you mean during the OCI you are using the restore? Or do you mean the oil consumption returned again in a subsequent OCI of regular oil? I personally don't care about oil consumption that much but if it is at 1 quart in 250 miles and increasing, these folks need help. Most ideally you would re-ring the engine to do it the most correct way but for many folks they will dump the car first onto the next unsuspecting victim, so a solution that could even help a little is worthwhile.........

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The increase in OC was with the Restore oil, but only after the stated 1500-2000 miles, at which time, changing it out for another fill of Restore brought consumption back in line. I would think using the Restore oil would be perfect for engines as you describe. I'd run Driven Defender in every tank for at least 1000 miles, if not longer as well. In fact, Porsche had a directive to use Techron to clean the injectors years ago:

Good morning. Thank you, Charles. There is no one's input that I value more than yours on a matter such as this so I appreciated you taking the time the respond -- and just in general how you always politely engage in conversations always providing high quality information. You are kind of a different person than your average engine guy, and I mean that in the best way.... and folks like you and Jake, you have contributed so much knowledge and experience to this platform and the Porsche community. God bless you guys LOL You raise a good point about injectors. For this reason I have run Driven Defender + Octane Booster (any product with PEA will work like Techron, which I have also used in the past) once per OCI just before I change the oil. Fortunately I also have access to Shell V-Power 93 at the gas station closest to my house and generally only get gas for my cars at this station.

Quotes source post: 18962649

Hi Charles. Happy Halloween. Your website is an excellent resource of information, TYVM for spending the time to compile it. I had a question about some information I read here. How common is acetobacter? The reason I ask is because there is a Shell very close to where I live that I always buy V-Power 93 from. I noticed recently that at least some of the pumps there started pumping super slowly..... I know they use fuel filters but reading the information on your website makes me curious. When you say untreated fuel should be used up quickly, what treatment are you referring to? I am assuming you are referring to Injector Defender but does this prevent or kill acetobacter? https://lnengineering.com/products/d...additives.html FUEL CONTAMINATION Next time you go to put gas and see the station is accepting a fuel delivery, just keep driving by. It is a good practice not to pump when stations are receiving a fuel delivery, as contaminants can be stirred up and even though the fuel is filtered at the pump, why risk getting contaminated fuel? Avoid gas stations with slow filling fuel pumps as this can be a sign there are microorganisms living in the fuel storage tanks that thrive when ethanol and water are present. These bacteria, known as acetobacter, generate acetic acid, which is very corrosive and can cause damage to metal parts in your fuel system . These colonies can form in your fuel tank too, so untreated fuels should be used up within a few weeks to prevent damage.

Quotes source post: 19085955

It would be a biocide that would have to be put into the holding tanks at the gas station if there is acetobacter present. Biocide is registered as a pesticide by the EPA and cannot be added to a fuel additive. They have to be a stand alone product and not part of a multi-function fuel additive. That said, this is more of an issue with diesel fuels, especially bio-diesel blends.

Interesting, thank you, great information from you as always about more of an issue with diesel fuels. What would we do without you? I went to this Shell last night because I usually fill-up when I get down to ~ 1/4 of a tank of gas because it's easier on the in-tank low pressure fuel pump. So I tried a different gas pump #1 and it seems to operate at normal flow speed like I have been used to for years unlike at least two of the other pumps at this station that have been very slow the last several weeks. Very weird. I know other people were having the same issue at this station because I heard someone complaining about it. It was pumping gas so slow that the lack of pressure caused the shut-off not to work and it overflowed gas out of the tank, fortunately I was alert and standing right there so stopped it quickly. Possibly it is the fuel filers that need to be replaced. I asked the person working there and he didn't have a clue what I was talking about, so I will probably never know for sure....... From now on I will only use pump #1 at this station I guess.

Quotes source post: 19053104

You would run Driven Defender because dirty injectors can contribute to oil consumption, correct? This makes sense to me because the fuel must atomize to combust and especially in direct injection engines there is less time so a dirty injector will make it so less fuel atomizes, resulting in more soot by way of more fuel that does not combust. To this end most of the Driven fuel cleaners are out of stock including on your website as well it looks like and I am down to my last bottle. Any fuel additive with PEA should be suitable. Do you know the deference between Chevron Techron� Fuel Injector Cleaner vs Chevron Techron� Complete Fuel System Cleaner? The Complete Fuel System Cleaner product description states it has PEA -- interestingly the Fuel Injector Cleaner does not.

Quotes source post: 19101954

It would be Technron complete fuel system cleaner that should be used because, as you stated, the other does not have PEA. Cleaning the injectors alone isn't the only reason we recommend running a fuel additive with PEA. High doses will clean up carbon deposits and free up rings and have other benefits. We've been able to save engines that were improperly broken in through repeated heavy dosing with Injector Defender coupled with the Restore oil or a conventional non-friction modified engine oil. As a side note, we should have Injector Defender back in stock by the end of the month.

Charles please elaborate your statement defender isn’t as good as Techron or are they equally good

Charles can respond but I did not read his message to state Injector Defender isn't as good as Techron. My opinion for what little it's worth is that I am mainly after the PEA (polyetheramine), which both products have. They both use a proprietary package but Injector Defender also has corrosion inhibitors and lubrication enhancers which I care about even in my flex fuel capable engine because I hate ethanol. Driven may have changed but I believe they were using a Lubrizol package at least as of a few years ago (may have changed to Afton like their soot dispersant package in the oils). I find it strange the Chevron Fuel Injector cleaner costs 2-3 times more and doesn't even have PEA....... why would anyone that understands this product choose it? PEA is the best for cleaning injectors so why would they not use it? I used my final bottle of Injector Defender last night before filling up but NAPA is running a monthly special on 32 oz bottles of Techron CFSC for $12 so I picked up 3 bottles of that. Once the Injector Defender is back in stock at LN I will switch back to it. In the meantime I feel comfortable with Techron as I ran that on my 996s going back something like 15-20 years and I had never seen the TSB Charles posted in #64 above but that Porsche was recommending this kind of product only reinforces that I have been on the right track. Charles TYVM for responding. You know I appreciate it....... Also just saw the following: https://lnengineering.com/products/d...additives.html Lastly, ethanol blended fuels also have reduced lubricity over non-ethanol fuels, directly effecting fuel system and engine component life for both vintage and modern engines, especially those with gasoline direct injection (GDI) or gasoline compression ignition (GCI). Elimination of sulfur from domestic fuels for emissions reasons has had an adverse, negative effect on the lubricity of fuels, increasing wear to high pressure injection pumps. Specifically, sulfur’s interaction with metal surfaces to reduce friction on metal sliding surfaces lowers abrasive wear, requiring the addition of lubrication enhancers (LE) to overcome poor lubricity of ethanol blended fuels. Driven’s Injector Defender can be used to provide added lubricity while providing protection from corrosion caused by ethano l. Even with proper dosing, acid based LE outperforms ester based LE, but with sufficient dosing, either LE additive can provide protection to all fuel system and engine components. Without knowing which LE is used and in what concentration, testing carried out by Total ACS found that premium fuels resulted in lower wear, so again, use of a Top Tier fuel in a premium grade where non-ethanol fuels are not available is highly recommended. [ 12 ]

This has been a good thread. As always, Charles has been a pro in providing insight. Thanks. Just ordered another case of DI40 from LN for a pre-winter oil change. Will order defender when its available.

I swear by driven I’m have defender in both Porsches and both of them are getting driven oil changes this week my question is only because supply issues for driven stuff isn’t convenient and an alternative might be necessary

I am also doing my oil change soon and I want to run a few tanks of PEA which was the reason I bought Chevron instead of just waiting. This is nothing to obsess over but if you want to do things the most textbook/correct way, which I always try to do all else equal, it is best to run these products in the last tank(s) of gas just before you change your oil (I believe this is essentially what the TSB is getting at in step 6 where it says never more than 20 oz per 3,000 miles). It only cost me $42 for the 3 x 32oz Chevron CFSC so I'll probably just run that for the next few weeks until the Defender supply issues are hopefully resolved and then switch back to running the Defender once per OCI just before each oil change like I have been on all my cars forever.

A question to the group my TTS has 80k miles and it’s has been dealer serviced it’s whole life im about to change the oil to driven DI40 do I add ceratec or luqui moly mos2 or neither needed for winter driving also my 99 996 with 103k miles about to do the same with DT40 is it necessary or overkill

No additives should be used with DI40 and DT40, their chemistry is already optimized

Quotes source post: 19107584

Both DI40 and DT40 have more friction modifiers than an A40 oil supplemented with Ceratec, so there would be no benefit to adding any additives to Driven oils.

Quotes source post: 19103585

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks for the responses extremely informative helping me keep my cars in top form

I’m about to do an oil change on my 2002 996 C2, the car is currently running on Mobil 1. I’m going to be using Driven DT40. I’m UK based, the car won’t be used in sub-zero temps, but use during Autumn and Spring can see temps down to 6-8 degrees C, whilst Summer can occasionally see peak temps up to 35 degrees C. Should I use 5W- 40, 5W-50, 15W-50 grade ?

DT40 only comes as 5w-40. I've been very happy with FR50 which is the 5w-50 variant. My car seems to like that oil weight.

You can also take a look at DI40 and DI50. DI40 came highly recomended by Lake to use for street and track as a replacement for Millers Nano 5w40 that I have run forever. I haven't researched DI50 for our engines as of yet but it may be an option.

Quotes source post: 19112538

For cold start, a 5w40 is good to -35C (-22F). For most street cars, a 5w40 is what I would recommend.

Good Lord. liqui Molly synthoil premium 5w-40 with lifter and ms02 additive and call it a day (additive every 60k). ran dt40 for ~15k miles and did nothing but cause chattery cold startups. For $10 cheaper a quart I went back to - in my opinion - the better option (above).

Quotes source post: 19114013

I thought you said you didn�t like how it tastes?

Quotes source post: 19114013

All DI40 did for me in ~50K miles was make my fuel dilution ridiculously low, prevent LSPI, make my wear metals insignificant, create less volatility to keep my valves clean, have the best VI profile of any oil I have ever seen, etc. Plus my car drives faster, smoother, and stays cleaner with it (that is just a joke). "Chattery cold startups" is not how you measure an oil.......

Quotes source post: 19114036

Mmmm data.

No I like the taste method that’s scientific 😵‍💫

I'm ready to jump ship from LM Leichlauf Hi Tec to Driven DI40 in my 2011 Carrera, 110,000mi. No problems, doesn't consume oil, I change it every 3500 mi or so adding MoS2. Are there best practices in making the first change regarding the interaction of the residual LM with the DI40? Would I do a second fill within a shorter than normal service interval? Also, on a now daily driver only (used to be track and street use) what is recommended by Driven for a reasonable change interval?

Quotes source post: 19140069

You can do the normal 6 month or 5,000 mile service interval, but just know the first UOA won't be as good as subsequent results. This almost always is the case when switching oils.

I'll just update everyone that we have an advance shipment of Driven Injector Defender coming. We'll be the only people with stock for some time as they are filling orders in the order received and we were first in line. We should start to be able to ship orders in about a week or as soon as the shipment lands. Thanks for your patience guys!

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Quotes source post: 19140069

I just don�t get it man. I really don�t.

I have 7 qts of DT40, unopened, for sale in marketplace.

Coming from the Cayenne 955 side, I have had oil consumption since owning my 2005 CTT from 43,000 miles, around 1qt per 1000 miles, and it has remained the same even now at almost 100,000 miles. It hasnt created any issues, other than plugs can sometimes get the hard white carbon build up on them, so I just replace them. No misfires or poor running. Since 43k, I change my oil every 3000-4000k with a quality Euro A40 spec oil (0W40 or 5W40 Mobile one, then Castrol Edge, most recently Pentosin HPII, gonna try Penzoil Plat/Quaker State Euro 5W40, havent tired Driven oils yet). But in my attempt to ward off potential bore scoring due to stuck piston rings, I found this thread (it is possible my issue is related to valve stem steals leaking, so not for sure from carboned up stuck piston rings). So I see mention of this Cummins restore product. I recently came across HPL's engine oil cleaner, being discussed on BITOG, and it seems like it might be similar to this Cummins product? Its a high ester product which is introduced into the oil at 1 qt per 5 or so qts your usual oil, then run for 2000 miles and changed along with filter. I would rather try this oil cleaner instead of resorting to an engine flush, seems like a safer option as its simply an oil ment to clean as it lubricates during a shortened OCI. Does anyone have experience with this product or similar? Charles, any opinion? https://www.advlubrication.com/colle...41599501566145

Quotes source post: 19165578

I don't have any knowledge of this product but would avoid it. I personally do not view this as safer and don't like the fact that you blend it 1:5 with any oil of your choice. There is nothing unsafe about the Cummins. In fact, I have admittedly not looked into it in detail but I believe both the Cummins/Valvoline product and the oil you provided are both ester based with high Magnesium. The 955 utilizes an Alusil engine block which inherently makes it vulnerable to the possibility of bore scoring. An oil analysis would give you more insight into what is going on but engines can burn oil for several reasons beyond rings -- valve stem seals, AOS, turbocharger shaft seals, etc depending on the specific engine. One thing people don't talk about much is scoring related to carbon build up, especially for DFI engines. If you look at a piston with jammed up rings the carbon build up is extremely hard and abrasive. You really don't want that running up and down your cylinder walls (where technically there is supposed to be a thin layer of oil and the piston and cylinder wall never physically touch), even in a cast iron block......

I have uoa's back to 43,000 since my ownership, everything has improved or help steady, nothing above averages, and good comments from Blackstone. here is a pic i took while changing plugs last week. Cold engine, saw the oil in cyl 3,4,7,8, although those happened to be the cylinders at the bottom the others were all up and i didn't rotate. no smoke after starting. But i did get a puff every once in awhile, at warm start up. AOS is new, also have a Mishimoto catch can. Off the AOS. Right, in addition to carbon itself, carbon freezing the rings in the wrong pisition can score the walls, thus my thought to try and clean them with this oil and not with strong solvents in the oil like typical flushes. I suppose if my problem isn't rings, then yes, even this mild ester based oil cleaner could dislodge carbon and scrape the bores, but I guess so could good oils with detergents over time. So how is the Cummins/Valv product different and better?

I've posted this before but will repost - https://www.speediagnostix.com/new-o...e-premium-blue Lake Speed recommended it to me and I ran it for a shorter drain interval. Engine was and is fine but would not run the car hard with it. Given the weight, you will see slightly lower oil pressures and probably higher oil temps.

If you have a manometer handy and your rings are beat you can usually see an indication of it in your crankcase vacuum as well. As plpete84 says, all is fine to use it but the Valvoline Restore is not an oil you want to run a long OCI of and I personally would change my filter at least once if not more over that OCI. The Cummins product was specifically formulated to free up the rings. Over on the Audi forums some people are using Berryman B-12 and soaking the pistons with success. But i would be careful doing that and prefer the Cummins with high doses of PEA (Techron, Injector Defender etc) instead...

So sorry for making you repost, you didn't have to, especially since you seem bothered. No further need to add any info p. No one shared the full valvoline product name so I had no idea what to search for. My appologies. anyway, the HPL product sounds very similar, ester based, use it for 2000 max oci, replace filter earlier, etc. Only difference is its mixed in with current oil as opposed to all the oil like the Valv. i would run neither option hard. I had thought of running a high detergent disiel oil before like Rotella T but never tried it. could also try redline 5w40 with ester. HPL also has high ester euro ouls but they claim they are strong than the 1qt only cleaning oil.

Yep, ive seen the cylinder wash techique, but that's what i would do if consuming a qt in less than 600 miles, seems too aggressive for me at this point. but it has worked for a lot of people to free the rings. Ill be the guinea pig for the HPL.

Cool let us know how the experiment with HPL works out..... The name of the Valvoline product was discussed above. It is Cummins Valvoline Restore and you can only order it from a local Cummins center. It was about $80/gallon when I checked recently and they had to special order it but could have it to me in their center, which is right by my office, the next day.

Quotes source post: 19165578

I've used the Restore product to save an engine with Nikasil bores that was incorrectly broken in. I'm guessing it helped "deglaze" the bores and allow the rings to seal up. However I don't think scoring of the stock Alusil or Lokasil bores is caused by stuck piston rings. I've never seen stuck piston rings, even in an engine with high oil consumption. High Performance Lubricants is actually near me, but I've never been there. That product sounds very similar to the Restore oil. I'd be afraid that the Restore oil might actually make things worse if you are trying to prevent or slow down bore scoring.

Thank you all for the comments. Charles, what's the logic with the restore or similar to HPL cleaner oil making the oil consumption worse? So just keep using Catrol Edge Euro 0w40 or 5w40 (was gonna try Quaker State Euro 5w40 next) as I have been? I add 1 bottle of ceratec every 2 oil changes. I change every 4000 miles. again, no noise, no mis fires, only the consumption. Give me a good resin reason to try DT40 for my consumption, Summit right down the road always has it..

Quotes source post: 19172764

If the oil consumption is bore scoring related, yes, I would think anything like the Restore oil would indeed make the problem worse. If you do use Ceratec, you have to use it at every oil change. It doesn't have magic molecules that stick around after you change your oil :-) If you want to try DT40, we do ship free and sell Driven at MAP levels.

Quotes source post: 19174291

I agree but it seems strange to me that if it's bore scoring for 60K miles the oil consumption is completely constant. I guess anything is possible....... "I have had oil consumption since owning my 2005 CTT from 43,000 miles, around 1qt per 1000 miles, and it has remained the same even now at almost 100,000 miles."

Quotes source post: 19174301

I do recall seeing years ago a Porsche TSB for oil consumption where faulty oil control rings were fitted (probably tension was too low). I'd wager that's more likely what is going on since the consumption has been constant for so long.

I have read your advice before about using Ceratec every oil change Charles, makes sense it drains out with an OCI. I just dont want to spend the extra $$$ every OCI. I use the Ceratec for protection, but in a way think it increases the consumption, maybe making the bores smoother allowing more to pass by (at least it claims to coat metal surfaces)??? I assume I dont have scoring, or at least not severe yet, thats why I thought perhaps I just had some carbon around some of the rings preventing a good seal, and not wanting the stuck rings to create the potential for scoring, and to help with consumption. Especially if they are low tension rings, carbon build up can do more to move them off center in the ring lands, preventing a good seal??? Still wanting to understand though, how would a restore/HPL or high ester good cleaning oil make the consumption worse? Its not making sense to me and I would like to learn and understand. Charles, do you recall if that TSB on the low tension rings was for Cayenne's?

Quotes source posts: 19174364, 19174854

Charles is correct , I recall having a female customer who had a Turbo Cheyenne back in 2005 that was using 1qt per 1k miles ( she pulled a Horse Trailer a lot of times) and she would never open the hood . She would bring it by the Dealership everytime the low oil light would come on, every 1k miles ,and we would add 1.0-1.5 qt oil to her Cayenne Turbo..lol We did investigate the issue by doing a compression test, leak down test, recorded and documented the issue, did a bore scope of the cylinders, ( everything was in specs)and even replaced the complete AOS/crankcase ventilation system with no change in oil consumption...and was within the Porsche specs, so Porsche was not willing at that time do authorize anything further.. We even offered to give her a few cases of oil so she would not have to come to the Dealership for a top off, but she refused to even open the hood...lol So we gave her "drive through" privileges to just drive into the shop to get a top off every month/ 1k miles...lol This lasted for 30k miles...30 qts oil added...not counting the regular OCI's ,, and she was nice about it, but eventually she traded for a newer Cheyenne Turbo ( that didn't have the issue) , then Porsche did finally come out with the TSB about the issue with the rings..( and did replace some engines) ..but was too late to help this particular Customer...

Thanks porschetech3, that gives me some piece of mind, not to save any oil and the cost, but it could be worse! I suppose im used to adding the qt after 6 years of doing so. I don't pull a horse trailer, but we do have a family of five and when the aren't in it going to and from work, I don't baby it!

Using Ceratec won't affect oil consumption. If you switch to DT40 as you mentioned then you don't need to use Ceratec anymore. Your oil consumption is constant for a long time. I would just be like the horse trailer customer Porschetech had and keep adding a quart every 1,000 miles. It's not really hurting anything but I would change the oil frequently because if you have rings with tension too low then you will get more blow-by and fuel contamination in your oil.

Quotes source post: 19175411

Okay, you left out a very important detail to this story - was she hot? In other words, did you (and the other techs) look forward to adding some oil to her "spicy SUV" or did you just have the newbie/shop sweeper perform this mundane task?

Quotes source post: 19177788

Well lets just say that she was very easy on the eyes, and since she was a connoisseur of fine Horses , she knew the value of a good Stud...

You guys crack me up! Waiting to hear back from HPL on exactly how I should proceed with my 2 qts of EC40 cleaner oil. ill keep updating.

Quotes source post: 19181895

You should check out the pictures from @plpete84 at the end of this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...0th-jahre.html ...he used this Redline Si-1 https://www.redlineoil.com/si-1-comp...system-cleaner product to clean the combustion chambers/pistons on his 40th AE , and it did a remarkable job, I was very impressed with how clean the pistons are... I'm not saying that other products would not be as good, but it's hard to think they could do any better...

Yup, I recommend it a few times in here. Per Lake Speed Jr. it has one of the highest concentrations of PEA (more than Chevron or Fuel Defender). One thing I noticed is that it keeps on working even when the car is not running. Whatever product ends up in the carbon, it starts to soften it up to the point where I would puff some smoke on start up as it burns off. The smoke would go away within a few seconds and not smoke under normal operation. The piston tops look almost new after running a bottle or two.

Quotes source post: 19182026

SeaFoam Spray has been my Go-To combustion cleaner for over 40 years, used like this https://seafoami.com/knowledge-base/...ea-foam-spray/ . I have cured many an "engine knock" by cleaning carbon from heavily coated piston crowns and chambers. Some will get so bad the carbon build-up will hit the head and cause a knocking sound. After the procedure they would smoke like hell on the restart and subsequent drive, but then clear up with no smoking. If you remember, Loius here had a knock on his 99 996 that every one said was bore score, then I told him to try cleaning with SeaFoam... @TexSquirrel did the cleaning and it stopped the knock... But after seeing how good this Redline Si-1 product did on your car, and it also has an upper cylinder lubricant ( Ester?) , and an octane boost/fuel stabilizer, and is just a "pour in the tank" one tank solution, I am rethinking my go-to product for this carbon deposit problem..

Yes, Luis is still knock free.

That pic I posted of my cyliner 7 or 8, cant remember which, was a few hundred miles after using redline Si-1,funny you should mention! i felt my pistons were petty clean as the pic shows, aside from the little oil puddle, just some sporadic deposits at the center, for having 98,000 miles. I should have taken some before pics. i used CRC gdi intake valve claener, half a can then the redline si-1 for a full tank, then a normal tank, then i changed the plugs and took the pics with the boroscope. Then an oil change. I feel over the years of using some of these fuel system cleanets is they can create build up on the plugs so i replace them after a big cleanup. ive used bg40k in the past, at 50k, then techron a few times between then and now. And italian tune ups every day, lol. i used the si-1 cause I heard the sane about the pea anount and good results, hoping to help clean the combustion chamber and rings in the process.

I�m getting some conflicting info on the start up/warm up procedures of our cars. I do this for all my cars 2018 Alltrack, 2007 S4, and 2004 C4S, all stock motors, start it up > wait for idle to drop (which is not long, maybe a minute) then drive immediately. The manual says be ready to drive immediately, which I take as start it up and go. @Charles Navarro is there a definitive guide? What are others doing?

Quotes source post: 19199389

Usually I will start the car and drive it immediately, just being sure to limit rpm and throttle input until the engine is fully warmed up. If it's really cold out, I might let the engine idle 10-15 seconds, but waiting until the engine is off cold start / fast idle is likely too long.

Always like to hear what others do. I start the car and drive it immediately, I don't let it idle at all not even a few seconds. This applies to all my cars and I believe the 2007 S4 is an Alusil block as well. I just got out of dinner and it's cold here. Started the car and drove right off....... I want to be like Bruce in Atlanta and say the reason I do it is because I have a creative imagination But my logic is as follows: Ideally you always want the engine to be at operating temperature. And modern engines force that to get the cats hot as fast as possible. The fastest way to get it there on cold start is to apply load to the engine not to idle it. So start driving it right away but I keep it under ~3K RPM until it's at operating temperature. Then off to the races....

Quotes source post: 19199525

I believe you are correct with alusil in the S4 as such I was acting the same with both and my behaviors has passed down to the wife�s Allltrack. East TN is cold as well these days and sounds like I�ll be driving off immediately while short shifting to 3k until oil is at operating temp.

start vehicle buckle seat belt drive That's been my method for, well, let's just say "quite some time."

Quotes source post: 19199955

Good luck getting some people to understand that. Especially if their vehicle is a pickup truck. Just seems to rub them the wrong way. Remote car starters are their dream come true.

They can keep using their remote starters but I would say to them that it's always good to think about WHY you are doing something and what the consequences are. On cold start what is the ECU telling the engine to do? It's telling it to run very rich and the injectors are dumping fuel into the combustion chamber. This is the reason when I start the car in the winter in the garage my daughter always says "ewwwww". Even a 9 year old can smell it's running rich........ If I just have to go up the street and back, I just walk or ride my bicycle.

I live in a cold weather state. It's amazing how fast the heater warms up and the cabin gets plenty hot real quick in the 996. I do the same start up procedures with my Audis. After all, they are German cars following the same environmental manufacturing constraints and therefore issues.

Resucitating this thread in the hopes of confirming that FR50 is just the 50 weight version of DT40? As my car is 98% track only, I assume that would be the preferred oil since it is spending a lot of time at high revs and in the mid-summer heat and humidity of the Mid-Atlantic. I recall another recent thread where the engine builder (Strakker?) was advocating for 50 weight oils in their engines. Apologies if this has been discussed before and please direct me to those discussions if possible. Thanks all.

Quotes source post: 19291124

Essentially, yes. I have been using FR50 which is 5w50 since 2021 in my car and have been very happy with it. I switched from DT40 to improve oil pressure, which FR50 did. I have very limited track experience but have also used FR50 during a track day and had 0 issues. I know Driven also makes a track specific oil that is 50 weight if you want to go that route. Below is my UOA showing a very healthy viscosity ad oxidation values. Brandon from Slakker and guys at Hartech recommend 50 weight oil for their engines but as you can see I have been successfully using it in my stock M96. The weight is not an issue where we live.

FWIW, I just talked with Lake Speed yesterday about DI50 as an alternative to DI40 for more oil pressure stability on the track. As the original video suggests, Lake is a fan of using DI40 in our M96 engines for both street and track. He suggested that DI50 is an option as well if you want a heavier weight for the track. He cautioned on mixing different oils when changing from street to track oils, but changing from DI50 on the track to DI40 for the street is not a problem due to composition. He also mentioned that the DI oils can handle track temps extremely well and that DI40 has become very popular as such. Importantly, to be clear, Lake knows that my car is not a dedicated race car. Instead it is a street legal car that does double duty for DE events. I plan on testing virgin DI50 and posting it on this thread in comparison to DI40 and Millers Nano 5w40 I already posted earlier in this thread.

Thanks Pete & GC! I've been using Mobil-1 15-50 for a decade or more now. I switched when i noticed my oil pressure gauge barely getting to 4 Bar over a 20-30 minute track session in the summer. The 15-50 did improve the gauge somewhat. My oil gets changed after every 2 events. When the motor was proactively rebuilt I had some minor bore scoring but I expected much worse considering the life the car has lived. Anyway, on the rebuilt motor, I trying to decide which Driven oil to use. So, FR50 vs DI50 vs DT40? I guess I can't really go terribly wrong whatever direction I chose.

If this is a 98% track car and you are changing your oil every 2 events, you could consider XP6 or XP9 which would be the best. The only downside is that you need to drain it after each event, it's not an oil that you can let sit in the engine for weeks on end like a street oil.

From the data I have seen from extensive track testing the M96 with AIM data acquisition equipment, the only reason you would want to use a 40 weight oil on the m96 is for gas mileage on a street driven car that is never Tracked... The 50 weight is much much better for everything ( except gas mileage), it gives more protection at very high oil temps, and it leaves more oil in the oil sump to keep from oil starvation, and can even be used in cold weather down to below freezing...( 0*F)

What Skip said. Oil is just one of those things where you might get as many opinions as people you talked to. I do believe that the 50 weight oil is a very good happy medium, especially if you track or drive your car hard. We have seen that heat is the enemy here and a lot of data has been thrown around showing that as oil gets hot, viscosity tends to suffer. It's always a good idea to talk to the person that built your motor, if possible to see if there are any recommendations there too.

One of the points that Lake made to me yesterday was to make sure if you are running two different oils for the street and track, make sure they will work together. As an example DI50 for the track amd then DI40 for the street and cold weather months works. I didn't think to ask what the XPs worked with in the Driven line. While DI40 is now being used on the track by many, myself included, I have not heard yet about DI50 being mainstream. However, using 50 oil on the track to boost oil pressure is now a hot discussion topic, so we will probably start to hear about DI50 more. I am most likely going to give it a shot in April.

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Thanks! Unfortunately for me the car sits in between events, sometimes up to a month at a time. I'll look further into this oil option if I can line up a series of HPDEs and races almost back-to-back. I do prefer to stick with one brand of oil though and not change between street and track.

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Also if you are switching oils from a 40 to a 50 not only do they need to be compatible ( chemical additive wise), but there is also about 1.5 qts oil that will not be drained, so if going from a 40-to a 50, the end result will be ~ a "48 weight" and when going from a 50 to a 40 it will be ~ a "42 weight"....so only a 6 point difference instead of a 10 point difference... Tha'ts why I just stay with a 50 weight, I'm not crazy about switching weights when a 50 will be good down to 0*F, and I will never see -40* below 0*F ..lol

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Should be no problem switching between XP and DI lines.

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I hear you. That what I have historically done with Millers Nano then DI40. Always changed the oil after a track day to fresh oil and it has worked well. But to Skip's point, I never start nor drive my 996 when it's below 40 degrees anyways so maybe it's time to just go 50 all the way.

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Same goes with VAG (and Porsche) recommending 5w20 or 5w30 for many models where they used to use a 0w40 or 5w40 previously. This was solely for fuel economy. I had a Macan that called for 5w20 and I used DI40 in it and the UOAs in 5k miles would be the best I've ever seen for any engine, but it lost about 15% fuel economy over the 5w20. Same goes for my current diesel Touareg - VW calls for a 5w30 and the UOAs with the factory approved oils are the worst I've ever seen in any engine. Most people who know better ignore the factory recommendations and run a proper 5w40 diesel oil instead. To hell with improving fuel economy if you increase wear. Jake has recommended XP6 for track use for years as well in his track builds. Lake has been recommending DI40 for mixed street/track cars and DI50 would certainly be an improvement over FR50.

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What are you using for your Touareg? In all honesty I�ve only used DT40 in the 996 on your recommendation.

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I'd stick to DT40 in the 996 for the street. In the diesel Touareg I've been running DP40, but unfortunately the additive package that Driven uses was discontinued. They have a new CK-4 diesel oil coming out in a few weeks to replace it. I'll be switching to that and will continue testing once I run out of DP40. There is a guy on the Audi forums that tried a ton of oils in his 3.0 diesel and Rotella 5w40 with Ceratec gave the best UOA results in his Q7. I will try adding Ceratec to the DP40 at the next oil change. I did try running DI40 and the detergent/dispersant package can't handle the soot loading for long OCIs.

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Got it, I ask because I have a T3 TDI and use LiquiMoly, I can never find Castrol locally. Napa actually carries Top Tec 4200 so I�ve never tried anything else.

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Just out of curiosity when you say it couldn't handle the soot loading, how specifically were you measuring this or what gave you this idea? TIA for the information as always.

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Ceratec? Is it good to use with DT-40? I've seen a lot of oil threads, don't remember Ceratec (or any oil additive) being recommended.

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That was straight from Lake. He recommended against DI40 in the TDI based off my UOAs. To us it looked bad, but to be honest, it was in line with what I've seen others post online when running the VW approved oils. The wear levels were about halved with the DP40, even when running a longer OCI. He did recommend a shorter OCI of 4,000 miles, even with DP40. All I can say is that this is one dirty engine. It only sees long drives, mostly highway and towing would seem not to affect the wear levels.

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Correct, do not use Ceratec with DT40. It already has a ton of friction modifiers and would not benefit from adding any more. Same goes for most every Driven street oil including DT50, FR50, DI40, and DI50 and all their race XP oils. The only reason I'm going to try Ceratec with DP40 in my TDI is that this is a diesel oil and it has no moly in it (like most diesel oils). Plus I'm ok with experimenting on my own cars. I normally would not recommend using any additives whatsoever. When I do recommend Ceratec to someone, I usually will do so only if they are running a suitable Liqui-moly engine oil. Doing so will ensure compatibility.

Question to the gurus my techs helper accidentally put DI40 in my 99 Boxster instead of the 5w40 oil he was supposed to use is there any down side or damage that can occur the car actually sounds much quieter in my 300 miles of use since thanks

Not a problem using DI40 at all

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Correct. DI40 would be an upgrade over DT40 for any Boxster, Cayman, or 911. It's just more expensive.

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First time I've viewed a VOA on Ceratec. The anti-wear/friction reducers are off the charts!

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If you add it at the recommended blend rate of one bottle per 5 quarts, that nets you a moly level around 300 ppm, so with that nets out to less than 200 ppm at our fill levels. Both DT40 and DI40 have significantly more. For those in the UK who might not have access to Driven, Millers Nano is another oil with high friction modifier levels like Driven.

Thank you all for good info. I don't have 996 but looking for something better for my 991.1 and Macan GTS. Both work fine with Mobile 1 but i dont think it has enough protection for my OCD to be comfortable and to help both cars last a long time. Tried LiquiMoly, and Schaffer's 9000 both of which worked very well on my old Cayenne GTS, wifes F10 535 and my dads MB R350 but proven to generate allot of valve train noises on both 991 and Macan. Just ordered DI40 for Macan, hopping it reduces noise in engine and gives good protection. Wanted to do DT40 for more zinc etc... but concerned with LSPI, Macan isn't very good about downshifting at light loads and i get up-to 8psi ffrom turbo while it wants to hold it in 7th gear at 45mph with engine lugging like a mother.. Thank you all for testing you do on this oil..

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Do you know why Driven's website has no information or mention of DP40?

I'm not very happy with DI40 0-40. Tried in in our 17 Macan GTS before changing my 991 over to it, and i have to say valve tapping is loud. Much louder than LiquMoly, Schaffers or Mobil One. Not sure I want to try it in cartera now.....

DI40 has worked well in my 996.2. My 3.6 seems to like it on the street and track. Engine seems to run quieter, especially during cold start-ups. I plan on trying DI50 next to see it's effects on oil pressures on the track. So far its been a winner.

I changed my �09 Cayenne GTS from Mobil1 to DI40. I did UOA on both oils and the DI40 showed significantly less wear metals. I�m sticking with it.

This thread has convinced me to change from DT40 to DI40 next oil change for my 996.1. I usually want the best oil regardless of price, but DI40 is getting up there. I'll probably FCP it for their oil return plan. Never did that before, because I just don't think it's fair to return oil, but I guess FCP has found a way to make their policy work. I'll buy everything else there also, which I guess is part of their plan. .

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Yes but the amount that it would cost you to ship it back to them will be 50% of new oil. At times, the time and agrovation of packing and dealing with shipping it, is not worth it. I tried once and said screw it. My time is worth more.

At $225 a case, anything adds up. Not cheap oil.

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It was discontinued due to lack of demand. Here is what I will be running in my diesels in place of DP40: https://lnengineering.com/products/s...-1-gallon.html

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Any experience with schaeffer's oil? Very popular in disel pickup truck and farming community.

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None whatsoever. Swepco has always made great products and I like that their diesel oils are formulated with moly.

Seems like more are going to 50 weight oil in their M96 engines. I know I did and much better oil pressure.

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I just picked up 2 gallons at the local Cummins office. They are $80/gallon. This is what it looks like:

Having ran this oil for a short OCI, keep in mind that you don't want to push the car too hard with it. 30 weight will cause some lower oil pressure. Nothing to be concerned about but it won't be as good as a 40 weight and definitely 50.

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Thank you and thanks again for the info! I am going to try this in a Audi 2014 Q5 2.0T for my next OCI. The OCI likely will be a lot of highway driving and I never bang on this car that hard. I will run it for 3,000 miles and will change the oil filter mid-way at 1,500 miles. Then I will immediately switch back to DI40. Since I am only running this in the summer I am not concerned it is a 10W and about the hot viscosity you are right, this is not an oil you want to run long or hard -- 1.7 cSt @ 100C, thin as water haha Here is the virgin analysis from the SDiax website for reference (bottle looks slightly different but i believe it is the same product):

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In my experience, you can't run this oil much longer than 1-2k miles before it goes to ****. For sure, don't track any car with this oil.

FWIW, talked to Driven the other day about the difference in formula for DI40 and DI50. Same formula but more viscosity in DI50. They also said that as a result, there is no conflict in formula if you decide to run DI50 in warm months and DI40 in cold months.

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Agree, def not for the track and even on the street probably good idea to take it easy. My wife and kids will go to Europe for the summer in two weeks so this is the perfect time to try it because I can completely control how the car is driven during the entire OCI. Lake had recommended the 3,000 mile OCI with it to me some time back . That will take me just 2-3 months so it will be fast. I think any longer than that mileage wise is pushing it for sure.

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I concur. If any of you want to run DI40 in place of DT40 or DI50 in place of FR50, that's not a bad idea either.

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Charles, thanks for the confirm. You will appreciate this, when i talked to Driven, they also said to always check with Charles on oil because he always tests it live in plenty of cars and situations, and can give good feedback as to what works.

Interesting read. I have a quick question for the fuel experts. I have access to ethanol free 92 octane. I personally notice a mild 5-10% improvement in mpg as well as a subjective performance improvement. However, I can’t always fill up on the ethanol free. Reading through the thread it seems like switching is bad. So the question is Should I keep using the ethanol free if I will be using E10 about 25% of the time or should I just stick with the E10 and use an additive? M

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yes use the ethanol free whenever possible and no problem to use regular E10 the rest of the time. If you do this 25% of the time you are effectively running E2.5.

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Thank you Charles. I will be switching to DI40 at my next oil change. I�ve seen some posts from you on reddit recently. Thank you for taking the time to remain active within the community, and sharing your knowledge!

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It would be my recommendation not to switch between ethanol free and E10 because you can end up with phase separation when going to ethanol free where the water comes out of suspension. Probably best to just use a complete fuel system cleaner with PEA every 2-3k miles along with a Top Tier fuel.

I thought phase separation was more if you were running pure ethanol then switch. This is interesting as my father regularly switches between ethanol free whenever he can get it (outside the city) to E10 (inside the city) with no issues for years but I will have to let him know. Thanks.

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thanks Charles. I have been switching on and off for the last few years. objectively (MPG) the car does better on the ethanol free than on the E10. Interestingly I've noticed I get the best MPG when I switch from Ethnol free to E10 but only that one tank. The MPG returns to typical for E10 after that. Regardless looks like I will just be using E10 in the future (which is way more convenient) M

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The 1.7 cSt reading above didn't make sense -- that is way too low for a SAE 30 grade. I communicated with Lake and that is a typo, it should be 1 0 .7, which makes a lot more sense. He also mentioned to me in the email that the Restore product has been discontinued, which has me a little perplexed from the standpoint that others have said this (Charles stated it above) but I have acquired some as shown above. I just wonder where the confusion or idea came from that is has been discontinued. I am about to run this oil very soon, finishing the last 500 miles of my current OCI so trying to get this thing zipped up and make sure I don't have bad information. ***EDIT: Talked to Lake again this morning and sent him this picture. Sounds like I got the right product, he thought it was discontinued due to several customers telling him they couldn't find it. I think part of the confusion here is that you can only buy this directly from a Cummins shop. Adding to the confusion there is a Valvoline Restore and Protect product that visually looks similar -- but it is a totally different oil and is $25/gallon. $25/gallon is WAY TOO CHEAP for a full ester, and in fact is not. I am going to run this for a 3K OCI and will post the results. Thank you all for the information.

Is it just me or does Driven website not have DI0-40 or DI5-50 I have to go to FCP Euro to find DI 0-40 and no 5-50 in sight.

DI40 changed from a 0W-40 to a 5W-40. https://drivenracingoil.com/i-304977...motor-oil.html Really not that much difference since it was almost a 5W to begin with (the change was probably more driven by marketing but who knows that is speculation on my part) but FCP Euro still has the 0W likely until stock is depleted. LN Engineering has it in stock too -- I am assuming LN ships the 5W just like you would get directly from Driven: https://lnengineering.com/products/d...rts-18406.html

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OK I suppose I can get away with 5w for Macan GTS in Chicago winters. But it looks like they only make 15w-50? I drive my Carrera all the way up to when snow and salt hits. Is 15w ok for freezing temps in the cold AM start?

You for sure can get away with 5W in Chicago winters. I am just over in Saint Louis, very similar weather, and run DI40. As far as running a 15W-50 in Chicago winters, I would not. I think DI40 is an excellent choice for your vehicle. If you look at its viscosity it is almost a SAE 50 grade anyway. You can run DI50 in the Carrera in the summers on the track if you want (but in that case I would probably roll with XP9 or XP6 but you would need to drain it after each track weekend ). DI40 and DI50 are fully compatible and there is no additive competition.

Driven told me that they are interchangeable. You can run DI40 in the cold weather months and DI50 in the wam weather months. That's what I plan on doing in Chicagoland in my 996.

Im going to do one more oil change with DI40 on Macan and see if engine sounds better over time. As of right now, as i mentioned, valve train is louder than i expected based on all of good reviews on this oil. Thanks for all the info

Interesting on the Macan and noise. I have been running the DI40 for a year in my 996.2 and the engine seems to like it. I am one of those guys that has barely used the radio over the past 22 years. Instead I put the windows down and listen to everything. It took a couple of hundred miles and a track day, but the engine does run quieter. Even though Lake highly recomended it, I wasn't sure how the engine would run with it. I am pleasantly suprised with it and will continue using it. But will try DI50 next to see how the engine responds. One of the things that surprised me was when I cold started it on a 20 degree day earlier this year. The car sat for a couple of months on a trickle charger. Sounded like a warm weather day startup. I was pretty impressed. It may be that the Macan may respond better with another oil. But so far, my m96 has responded well to DI40. For background, i ran Mobil 1 from 2002, them moved to Millers Nano 5w40 for well over a decade and now DI40. I loved the Millers and it treated my bores well, but the car seems to run the best so far on DI. Time will tell if it's as good as they say. I hope so. So far the oil tests have been very good on the 996. I am going to try it on my Audi Q7 3.0 next. Just got the service department to verify its use won't effect the warranty. I have an oil change coming up with the Q7 to get a read on its condition with Castrol and then making the switch. Good luck with finding the right oil.

@malahhaor Next oil change, please collect a sample of the oil and send it for analysis. If the valve train is clattering in a way that is bad for engine wear, it will be seen in the results. Here is the UOA history of my Cayenne. The right most numbers are with Mobile One. The other 2 are DI40. With 165000 miles, I'm pretty happy. And yes, the valve train and injectors make a bunch of noise, when the hood is open and I'm standing over it. I can't hear it in the car. The data will guide you. Please don't take our word for it and then blame us later if something truly bad is going on. Note: I change oil 2X per year but test only 1X per year. The mileage value is for previous 6 month only, not the entire year.

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Great info. Did you ever run DT-40 and how did it compare to the others? Curious because I�ve been using DT40 for a while, getting ready to try DI40 next oil change.

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Never DT40. Earlier in thos thread a bunch of us post virgin and used oil tests for comparison. Having used Millers Nano on the track and street, I called Lake up to discuss my tests and look for a recomendation for oil that is robust enough to do double duty like Millers. He said DI40. About that time the video came out that started this thread and the thread has taken on a life of its own.

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A 5w40 is perfectly suitable for use in cold Chicago winters, so if you are considering using a DI oil, I would say DI30 or DI40 would be most appropriate for your Macan. https://lnengineering.com/products/d...n-di-oils.html

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All our stock of DI40 is the 5w40.

The old '99 just loves DT40. Just received another case + filter via UPS.

I just purchased DI40 from Summit Racing, and I performed an oil change. I now have the happiest M96 engine in Snohomish County :-;

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What oil were you using previously, and did you really notice a significant difference? (presuming so from your comment)

I was poking around on the internet (I know dangerous ground) and noticed that some of the oils for DI have the GM Dexos rating. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppin...t-is-dexos-oil Funny thing is they mention the extra cleaning, but not the fact that is got a bunch of voodoo to stop foaming.. GM has had a lot of trouble (So has ford) with their Zippy highly tuned up engines ruining timing chains and that was when they came up with the Dexos rating. Of course the oil change manager in their cars is calibrated for a 9000 mile oil change with some adjustment to account for usage. My local dealer service write told me the cars that change between 5&6K miles don't seem to have the problem.. Its all the 4cy na and turbo and V6 Na engines that seem to have issues with GM.. Most of the cars rev to 7K and have automatic transmissions though.. Thought it was interesting

Yep, I had to do the timing chain on my 2.0T at 75K miles. When the timing cover was removed I discovered the tensioner was extended so far it was about to come out of the housing. This was right when my CPO ended and I changed to DI40 right after it expired and it hasn't stretched at all since (you can measure in VCDS just like you can with Durametric). This is a major problem on small displacement turbocharged engines -- they are really, really hard on the oil. I am changing my oil every 3K miles now.

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With respect to DI50, is the 15W cold viscosity an issue? Technically a 15W should be good down to -13F and erroring on the side of conservatism it can still be very cold and it would still flow well. Probably not a great idea to do cold starts with this engine in such low temps to avoid bore scoring in the first place but that aside and just playing devil's advocate, are there any caveats to running DI50 in these cars year round like in the winter? For the air-cooled engines I know 15W is pretty typical but curious your thoughts on the water-cooled. p.s. Huge mistake showing my wife the pictures of your Airstream. She LOVES it and now all I'm hearing about is how she wants one just like it LOL

Good question, thanks for asking silver_tt. I eagerly await an answer.

FYI looks like Driven has a 20% off sale going on until 6/3 :

Thanks for that heads up! Just ordered some DI50.

Just ordered my 3 cases I�m good for 2 years

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Thanks. Was hoping I could order it from LN with this discount code since Driven's website says to go to LN for any Porsche application, but it looks like the discount only works on Driven's website. Will be ordering from there.

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If it was me, I'd use DT40 or DI40 at or below freezing and just use the DT50 or DI50 for the warmer months if your ambient air temps are regularly over 90F. That's the same rule of thumb for viscosity we have always used on aircooled models. At least you know they hold their resale value :-)

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I was not aware of this promo. I added the SICK20 code to the LN website which will apply to DT40 and DI40 and also provide free shipping.

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At least you know they hold their resale value :-)[/QUOTE] Haha yes but I won�t tell her that . Sorry to be annoying, I am on my phone right now but it looks like your response about 15W got corrupted or cut off? Was curious the answer. Thank you for all the information and advancements you have provided this community and platform.

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Thanks for letting me know. It's fixed. We are having internet issues in the office today.

Another fascinating video by Lake. There is alot to chew on as a result of his testing. He did the testing with Driven GPI in a LS, the results confirm many points that have been made on why we may want to consider running heavier oil in our car in warm weather environments. No testing was done in extreme cold environments. But you can draw some lines in this one. He also shows analysis on the advantage of pre-filling oil filters if using lower weight oil vs. heavier oil. All of which is ties into oil pressure, HP and engine wear. Its worth your time to watch. You Tube

A lot of the MR2 turbo community swear by 5W40 Rotella T6, which has high zinc content. It's also reasonably priced at Walmart. [ This was intended to be a response for the gent who owns the Audi TT..I am running Driven DI40 in my 996 ]

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If you mean me I do own a Audi Q5 2.0T and folks sometimes think "silver_tt" is for an Audi TT but I chose the name long ago for my Porsche Mezger 996TT I am also running DI40 for many years... Another good video by Lake... confirms what I already knew but I agree with Lake's approach in testing and proving his ideas. Kudos to Lake.

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I am observing similar. As I approached the end of my first 1,500 mile OCI the oil consumption increased and it appears to have persisted into the second OCI to the point where I started wondering if this thing is playing head games with me. I must have an oil leak I thought. But I put it up on a lift yesterday, dropped the splash shield, and the engine is not leaking. What the... but then I remembered you said this. I wonder what the reason is that oil consumption increases. This is counterintuitive in that one might expect if rings are being freed up, then ring seal is improving, and therefore oil consumption should be decreasing all else equal. It's not that important if you don't know because I will see for myself soon enough but did you have previous feedback on when the consumption subsided? I am just wondering if this is somehow an indication the oil is doing its job -- and specifically if two 1,500 OCIs is going to be enough or if I should consider a third while I am on the chemistry of the Restore. As you know there is always a period of cross-contamination when you switch oils so if I was going to run a 3rd OCI this next one would be the time to do it before moving back to DI40 for good as I had been on previously. Thanks again for all the information you have given this community and me personally. You know we appreciate it. EDIT: Talked to Lake this morning and if needed I will run a 3rd OCI to total 5,000 miles on the Restore.

Another very useful thread filled with great info from knowledgeable owners. Thank you vetfever

Fantastic thread. Thanks for all the great info. It’s my first post here and looking for some advice. I purchased my 2012 Boxter Black Ed one year ago from a FL Porsche dealer with a 2 year CPO warranty. Cars been great and my local dealer has provided some warranty repairs, mainly the HVAC box R&R due to breakdown of the foam lining. I stored the car for 5 months with the oil installed by the Porsche dealer in June 2023 just before purchase. I’d only put about 1700 miles on it. Upon retrieval from storage I had a local Inde do an OC and asked if they’d at least pull a plug or two and look for scoring. They did the OC (they use Fuchs Titan Supersyn 0w-40) but returned the car without pulling any plugs. Their excuse was that they didn’t want to do something that might cause a misfire or other problem. I realize the proper way to check is to look through the sump anyway.. I don’t have any worrisome symptoms of scoring, but I’d like to check, at least while I still have the warranty in force. I did send the oil to Blackstone, see report, for UOA. Maybe better to use speed diag?? I posted it at Bobistheoilguy and someone replied about the viscosity being really low. And it is. I assume that the dealer who sold the car uses M1, but will see if I can verify. This analysis doesn’t show fuel dilution, but it may be that Blackstone does not have the equipment to properly evaluate this. I’m currently doing the aforementioned fuel additive process using Techron. I’m using 91 ethanol free top tier Mobil gas exclusively. I will definitely do an OC right before winter storage this year wUOA.. On the oil. Should I sample some now to check Viscosity? Do another OC with a UOA and switch to a better oil? At 79k I think I want to use something like a 50 weight or DI40 or anything with Moly in it. I’m not sure if using an unapproved oil might run afoul of the warranty if things go south. Take a look at this analysis and let me know your thoughts. I guess another easy check would be to look at fuel trims to see if that’s not in spec. Thanks in advance.

The oil in the UOA above is likely the API SP rated M1 0W-40 "European Car Formula" and, just like the original formula, it is right on the cusp of being a SAE 30 grade straight out of the bottle and with use it shears down badly as you can see in your sample. 9.86 cSt is a SAE 30 grade.. DI40 would be more like ~14.0 cSt, which isn't too far off from a SAE 50 grade, plus it holds its viscosity in much longer OCIs. Your wear metals are high considering the sample is just 1,735 miles but the oil is also poor. I see you also added half a quart during this OCI, if you added a different type of oil there will be some cross contamination. I would switch to DI40 if it doesn't violate your CPO -- for example I believe GC996 said he asked his dealer this about one or more of his cars and they were ok with it, would not violate his terms, etc. I don't know the 2012 Boxster that well having never owned one but I believe it uses the 9A1 engine which cannot be scoped from the sump (you are correct for M9x sump is always the best). For 9A1 you can use the spark plug holes and a proper oil analysis will likely tell you everything you need to know even in isolation. I actually think oil analysis is the best way to detect bore scoring on these engines due to the fact that most mechanics out there, even dealer mechanics or Porsche indys, do not know how to do the bore scoping procedure correctly including not having the training/experience in reading the images. In the 997 forum I have seen this countless times including a recent debate about a "cracked cylinder" that was not cracked. If your indy didn't pull the plugs because they said they are afraid it could give you a misfire, this information alone tells me they are not comfortable performing the procedure and I likely wouldn't trust their assessment anyway.

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Thank you for responding! Excellent info for me. The 1/2qt I added was M1 0w-40 and I am going to call the selling dealership tomorrow to inquire about what they use. Not really sure about the Fuchs oil the Inde uses either. Is speed diagnostix a better quality analysis for my situation? I guess I�ll call the dealership to inquire about using something like DI40 although I doubt they would check or know the oils provenance if there were an issue with the motor at some point. Maybe that�s naive on my part. I don�t like that Si was above expected either.. So just to confirm, if in fact the sample was M1 that viscosity wouldn�t be too far from what�s expected, even though the reports expected values are above 11cSt? On the plus side, I was able to determine the previous owner who had the car for 10 years. I joined the PCA and emailed her as she is the local Chapter President. Hours later she called me and then offered to send me copies of all the service records which I now have. She took great care of the vehicle. I will start looking for another mechanic in my area and also see if I can verify the ability to see the cylinder bottoms through the sump in this engine. Appreciate the response�

You can prevent alot of problems with more frequent oil changes regardless of whether you use M1, DI40 or some other brand. Fresh oil with its qualities intact makes a big difference. Problem is that there are alot of folks that go to the grocery store 2 miles away amd never get the oil temps hot enough to burn off the fuel and moisture which ultimately leads to poor lubrication and then bore problems. Something to be said for going on a long enough run to get the oil good and hot, and then taking the engine thru its paces at higher rpms. The engine needs to be properly lubricated with the best oil you can get your hands on and exercised so it knows it's a Porsche. My preference is to run the best oil I can find, change it often and test it a couple of times a year to see what's happening inside the engine. Kinda like going to the doctor a couple of times a year but a little more fun.

In some sense Speediagnostix vs Blackstone is apples to oranges. SD has better fuel dilution measurement that utilizes the gas chromatography method rather than flashpoint, which is what Blackstone uses. Some things about SD reports also make more sense like looking at wear / 1000 miles. Blackstone makes a lot of generalizations like using universal averages -- just for example, the Calcium 2561 universal average they are showing in your report is not correct to be showing there and is misleading. This is the universal average for the traditional formulation of M1 0W-40. The "European Car Formula" version you likely had in the engine is the API SP formulation and therefore has a lower level of Calcium. Research has shown that higher levels of Calcium can contribute to LSPI. The 9.86 cSt viscosity in your sample is about what is expected since this oil is known to shear down quickly. It's important to always benchmark your UOA results compared to a virgin sample of the exact same oil. For example some oils will use Si as an anti-foam additive so it is important to know if it's in there already straight out of the bottle. It's also important to note that formulations can and will change over time. In the past when I have asked SD for a virgin sample they have provided it. If it's a Driven oil LN Engineering would be able to provide this as well (and it's shown on their website).

Everybody has their favorites, but I have found SD report to be well organized by data groupings and easy to read quickly. Blackstone requires a little bit of work in reorganizing the data. Also good to be able to communicate with Lake as well as Charles if needed.

Fantastic info guys. I didn’t really know about the scoring issue until after purchase, but am pleased I spent more than originally planned for a newer car with a CPO, especially not having owned a proper sports car previously. I watched and listened to many of the PCA, LN, and Jake at FSI, offerings and am stunned at the amount of data. I honestly wonder what PCNA would do if a car showed scoring under a CPO. I have no problem spending more $ on better oils and more frequent OC if it extends the life. It’s crazy to hear Lake discuss how the mfgs promote and approve thinner oils just to improve fuel economy. The discussion of Moly and its benefits especially as related to these Nikasil and Alusil bores is especially compelling and my intention is to begin using a better oil as soon as possible as well as ensuring I’m using the best fuel available. Yesterday with tank at 1/2 I added a 2nd container of Techron and refilled with 91 ethanol free TT gas. edit. I believe the processes related to the potential for scoring is locasil or alusil blocks..

Buying CPO can be smart and good insurance, I did it with my last car. If the cylinders are scored under CPO you should be covered. You would get a new shortblock just like the one you have but there are no design improvements meaning it could have the same failure again later. The 9A1 can score but it is far less common than M9x according to Jake and LN Engineering, who is the best source of this information as they can see what comes in the door everyday. I am not sure what geography you are in and where the car lived it's previous life but there definitely seems to be compelling evidence that colder climates and more subfreezing cold starts can be a contributing factor. The manufacturers are being forced to do that to improve their fuel economy. The government passed unrealistic laws mandating this and what we are left with as consumers is the end result of this type of situation.

Quotes source post: 19546089

Yes, I live in WI where I have to store it for several months a year if I want to keep it clean. Fortunately it spent its entire life in FL til now so the cold starts haven�t been something it�s seen. Somehow the sales ad is still available on YT. You Tube

Great thread. Awesome to get input from Charles from LN. I am thinking to switch from DT40 to DI40. Wondering if it�s worth the marginal increase in cost. Has anyone with an M96/M97 changed from DT40 to DI40 seen any benefits and/or done oil analysis?

Hi Everyone, Please correct me if I've misunderstood but I believe Driven's (DT40 for my application being 996.2 C2) main differentiator is the addition of molybdenum and a significant amount when you compare other VOA that list any moly at all. (I think Liqui Moly 5w-40 is 80 where as DT40 is 550ish?) If this is such a good addition to an engine oil why isn't other oils picking this up and adding to their premium oil? It is also my understand (and correct me please if I'm wrong) but the M96 engine is particularly hard on oil and causes the oil to sheer quickly. How does DT40 help minimise / reduce this? DT40 has a recomendation of 6 monthly 5000mi changes. I only plan to drive 5000mi (8000km as I'm in Australia) per year. Would it really be an issue to extand to 12 months for the same distance? or is DT40 known to breakdown once the oil is in use. finally while I was poking around and disappearing down the 'best oil' for my 996 rabbit hole I noted that Redline's 5W-40 engine oil (according to a VOA on Bob is the oil guy site) that this too has lots of moly added (556). Is there any thoughts on this?

Justin, you may want to read the entire thread from start to finish. Quite a few if your questions will be answered.

Justin redline makes a premium oil can’t go wrong with it but Driven. DT40 is made for pre direct fuel injection engines DI40 for newer and once a year oil service under 5k miles is good but change it right before you store it

Quotes source post: 19579515

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post19140081 � normal 6 month or 5,000 mile service interval�

I keep our oil FAQ updated with all my recommendations on what is the best oil for your Porsche , how often to change it, etc. You can get to it right from the LN homepage.

Quotes source post: 19546004

I'll add that Blackstone uses the ICP method which has about half the resolution of the RDE method employed by SPEEDiagnostix , so really it is comparing apples to oranges. I am also not the hugest fan of Blackstone's use of unit averages and their commentary on their used oil analysis . It often leads people down the wrong path or to think there is nothing wrong with their engine when it does actually have a problem.

Quotes source post: 19579661

Thanks - I'm in Sydney, Australia. No storage needed here. Coldest winter we've had in a long time yet mornings are still 45F coming up to 60-70F during the day.

Quotes source posts: 19579666, 19140081

I wonder if that is PCA's recomendation? In the handbook it is 12 monthly service (Australia) for me. That's why I was asking about this.

Quotes source post: 19580678

We do not go by Porsche's service recommendations. Where a severe service interval is not specified, we typically will cut the service interval in half, time or mileage, whichever comes first.

Following Porsche's service recommendations is exactly why we have some of the issues that we have today

Yep, and nowhere in the service/maintenence does the factory suggest a water pump interval.

Rumor is that if you read every 911th letter of the service manual it spells "buy new 911"

Quotes source post: 19581818

Or for the AOS. Ah, and yes, Porsche never even had a part number for the IMS bearing, suggesting it was a "lifetime" part, kind of like those "lifetime fluids" that we never have to change :-)

Quotes source post: 19581828

The modern Porsche was designed for the leasing market. Little to no maintenance during the lease or even during the warranty period. When the warranty is up, you're supposed to trade it in on a new one, right? :-)

..........and I'd like to know how to design a "maintenance free" fuel filter..........thats a good trick,...

Quotes source post: 19581954

Just don't have one :-) Isn't it a non-serviceable component in the fuel pump nowadays?

Quotes source post: 19582009

Charles, if you don’t mind. If you were in my situation with a 2012 MA121C engine(320HP) with 79K and 12 months worth of CPO warranty remaining. Would you be inclined to have the bottoms of the bores inspected to rule out scoring, even though there are no telltale signs in current operation. I have only 1 UOA which showed low viscosity for low miles M1 0w-40. Thank you in advance for your input..

Quotes source post: 19582025

I certainly would. I recommend to everyone with CPO cars to have an independent go through the car as if you were having a PPI done so that you can have Porsche fix anything that might be under warranty. Depending on how many miles you drive, I'd cut your oil change interval down maybe even to 3 months (as long as you have at least 1000 miles on the oil) and have it resampled to see if the aluminum, iron, and silicon levels are trending the same.

Quotes source post: 19582009

Oh yes they have one !! it is made into the fuel sending unit on the 02+ cars........It is only "maintenance free" if you "don't know/think/worry about it" ....

Quotes source post: 19582077

You get a free fuel pump with purchase of the fuel filter!

Quotes source post: 19582037

Perfect, thank you for the reply. I�m probably right at 3 months and 1000 miles and maybe I�ll do another change and sample( currently on Fuchs 0w-40) which I don�t imagine is any better than the M1. At that time I can have them drop the pan/plate and scope from the bottom and refill with Driven oil..

Quotes source post: 19582238

FYI the 9A1 can�t be scoped from the sump, have to use the spark plug holes. I would definitely do the oil analysis regardless because it�s certain and we have seen a lot of dealer and indy mechanics miss bore scoring or diagnose bore scoring when it wasn�t there. Oil analysis is a route you almost can�t make a mistake with. Good luck!

Quotes source post: 19582077

I had the pleasure of replacing this as the top plastic piece developed a tiny crack that caused an air leak which would throw an annoying evap code. Took me like 3 years to track it down hah

Quotes source post: 19582589

Thanks�.I think I saw you post that earlier and I was not aware that this was the case for my engine. I guess it�s both good and bad. I�m still trying to find a competent Indie in my area who I can trust. I had planned on doing just one more change before it goes into winter storage, but maybe I�ll do one now and again in Nov. I�d like to transition to oil w/moly and considered possibly adding Cera Tec to the current(Fuchs oil)although that would taint any UOA. Appreciate the comment as it may be that many mechanics wouldn�t know it�s not possible to view from sump�and that would be a waste of $..

Is this a typo or am I misunderstanding something? From the LN page about SpeedDiagnostics: " Not only does SPEEDiagnostix use the RDE method that can see particles up to 10 microns compared to the ICP process used by popular labs that can only see up to 5 microns" 5 microns is smaller than 10, right? We're talking about micrometers? So this would imply that the ICP process has higher/better resolution?

It means speed diagnostics can see 0-10 microns which is a larger range than 0-5 microns.

Checking the Driven website today and see they have a Labor Day special for 25% off. I will probably buy a case and do an oil change as I just got back from doing my first DE event ever at Road America in Elkhart Lake WI. It was put on by the Milwaukee PCA chapter. I�m really glad I did it as I got to find out just how capable my car is in that environment. I would recommend to anyone who has not done it as it will give you an appreciation for what these cars can do. My 12 year old 80k Boxster S performed flawlessly as my excellent instructor taught me how to drive the line. It was a confidence builder to keep up with the newer cars in the turns and if nothing else it was still fun pointing to allow the 911T�s to blow by me on the long straights. Definitely used up some pad material and rubber, but once warm the Michelin Pilot Sport 4s made the car feel like it was on a rail. Great people, great fun. Can�t recommend highly enough. Looks like the DI oil is now all 5w-40.. curious to see what the Fuchs Supersyn oil looks like after completing this event..

We got ahold of Driven and they extended an extra discount to us, so we were able to extend the 25% promo to select Driven Racing Oil products sold by LN. This includes DT40, DI40, DT50, DI50, XP9, and XP6.

I switched from DT-40 to DI-40 in the last oil change, and although I thought the engine was quiet before, it's even quieter with DI-40. DI-40 is not inexpensive, but seems to be worth the premium in my brief experience with it.

Any current LN discount codes for Driven products?

Driven just had an awesome 25% discount for Labor Day. I'd sign up for their instagram page as that's where they announce various promos.

Quotes source post: 19665211

We mirrored their promo as they supply use special pricing to be able to do so, otherwise we'd lose money with these promos. :-) We usually include Driven in our promos for Black Friday/Cyber Monday which will be announced in an upcoming LN newsletter. I'd suggest subscribing if you don't already receive our Tech Tuesday blasts. Sign up for the LN Engineering Newsletter

Charles, Can you check the link for the newsletter? It has a note about being in preview mode in the bottom of the page, and that nothing will be sent..... Thank you. -Eric

Quotes source post: 19679730

Link has been fixed. CC changed something without out knowing. Thanks for the heads up!

So is the conventional wisdom to run DI40 even in 997.1 engines? About to do an oil change and want to order the best practice.

I can only go by what Lake and Charles tell us, which is that DT is very high quality oil, but DI is a step above DT. I asked Lake what oil is robust enough to run on both the track and street and he also said DI. As the video in the first post suggests and the many posts by Charles suggest, DI can be run without a problem in the M96. The video and posts outline more details on what engines you do NOT want to run it in.

What Glenn said. I grabbed 2 cases of DI50 which is 15w50 when it was on sale. It's what my engine builder recommends for a mixed use oil and holds up with what Lake says for occasional track time. I've been running FR50 5w50 for years (and do now during cold months) with great UOA results.

Hey folks. You may find this oil comparison at temperatures interesting. Big thanks to Brandon at Slakker for compiling it and posting on another thread. DI50s ability to handle temperature and maintain viscosity is pretty impressive versus some very well known names. Quite frankly, i would love to see Driven release a DI60 again. Which they discontinued. Given it's ability to maintain viscosity at very high track temps, I can only imagine what the data would look like.

Great info thanks but someone break it down for dummies please

Sure. From left to right it shows oil temperatures at the top. The rows underneath show viscosity numbers at specific temps for each oil. Bottom line is you want oil with higher viscosity in our engines and oil that holds its viscosity as oil temps rise. For sure, there is more to oil thhanjust viscosity, but it's the first time I have seen a grid that outlines viscosity at various temperatures. We can thank Brandon for the data.

Quotes source post: 19956527

So what im reading from this is that both DT and DI 40 aren't going to be very good on a hot summer day driving around town and maybe sitting in traffic?

Quotes source post: 19957539

A trend that seems to be developing is to run DI40 in the cold weather months and DI50 in warmer months. While we have talked about the viscosity benefits of doing it, this charts actually provides the data as to why you may want to consider it. From a track perspective, the chart shows you which oils may hold up better under extreme oil temps.

Here is an example of oil and water temps on an 80 degree day after a good 60-90 min run thru the rev range on local streets and highways.

Am I reading that chart correctly that DT40 has twice the Moly as DI? Seems like that�s a big deal for those of us that don�t do anything more than spirited city/highway/mountain driving.

Looks like it. We can probably fill in alot of missing chemistry data from virgin oil tests posted on this thread.

Yes, I�ve found VOAs on Google and BITOG showing DT40 with 2x the moly content of DI40. Furthermore, my UOAs also show the difference in moly between the two oils.

Quotes source post: 19957569

Can't help but love Porsche's absolutely inane coolant temperature gauge markings . Let's see, the temp is somewhere between 180, and 250, that must be good! .

Quotes source post: 19958068

Hah! I gotta say that @Coopduc digital oil temp gauge is one of the best mods I have done on the car. No guesswork on oil temps!

I really do not want to get into another discussion that's 18 pages long, but i don't understand why DI would have so much less protection (molly) than DT. Between high temps viscosity and molly, wondering if i should go back to Schaffer's 9000. Really wonder how that compares to DI40. Or go back to DT40 even though both of our cars are direct inject Just for reference, driving around running errands 36F outside oil hangs around 210 (DI40). now i know its going to try and keep it at that temp best it can but when its hot outside i can easily see it going to 220 which seems like just about where it starts being ineffective?

Perhaps molly is not the be all end all single additive that provides the protection. It's a mixture of various aspects of the oil that make it work well. What if the oil had a lot of molly but would lose viscosity quickly and thin out (like Mobil 1 0w40)?

Quotes source post: 19958113

At the very least, watch Lake's video. But as Pete suggested. It's not just the moly content thats important, it's the entire formulation.

The reason Di40 has less Moly than DT40 is that it doesn't "need" as much Moly... Di40 has a reduced amount of Calcium...Calcium is a detergent that counteracts Moly and Calcium was found to be cause of Low Speed Pre-Ignition ( LSPI ) in Direct Injected cars.... so DI40 was formulated with lower Calcium with meant it didn't "need" as much Moly which is an anti-friction additive... Detergents and Rust Inhibitors and Anti-Oxidants actually fight against Anti-Friction/Anti-Wear additives like Moly/Zinc/Phosphorus/Boron/ and is why they are not used in "pure race oils"....Although some oils marketed as Race Oil has ALL of these additives in them and more... Note : I am not an Oil Specialist and don't have ALL the data, but I listen to the Experts and read between the lines, and read SAE Papers ....The information that is available is usually meant for the general public and is a very broad scope that covers a large range of applications.... Another thing to note is that when reading the Oil Viscosity Chart is that when we talk about Oil Viscosity , The Viscosity is a Proxy for " Oil Speed" ...This is very important on the M96 with the Integrated Dry Sump...It is a Pseudo/Hybrid Dry Sump that is much close in function to a "Dry Sump" than a "Wet Sump"...People who say it is a Wet Sump don't really understand the intricacies... Why is the OIl Speed/ Viscosity so important on the M96? Because the hotter/less viscous the oil is the faster it flows out of the Sump...A quality 0W-20 oil used in some other modern engines and even in some NASCAR engines has a good film strength and plenty of Anti-Wear Anti-Friction additives but will flow out of the Integrated Dry Sump much faster than a 5w-40 oil....and a 15w-50 or a 10w-60 will flow out of the Integrated Dry Sump much slower and give more time for the Scavenge Pumps to return oil back to the Integrated Dry Sump...This is even more important in successive high G turns where only one Scavenge Pump is returning oil instead of straight level ground where two/both Scavenge Pumps are returning Oil... So Oil Speed is the key and I have determined that 12cst is the "Maximum Speed" we want in the oil flow circuit for the Track Events....You can see on the Chart at what Oil Temperature the oil flow will reach the Maximum Speed of 12cst ..That is how you determine the Grade of oil for you/your application... So as Lake says, the right oil, in the right application, at the right Time...makes sense ....but I'll add that with the M96..you need the right oil for the application, in the right amount , at the right Time, and to achieve this you also need a few "bolt ons" (UAOS/UIDS)... needed to stop the thing that has killed tens of thousands of M96 from Oil Starvation...

Quotes source post: 19959323

So what are you running in your M96? I�ve considered switching to DI despite 10+ years of stable UOAs running DT40. I�m not so sure it makes sense to do so since I don�t track mine.

Quotes source post: 19959504

If you don't track your M96, DT40 is just fine. Like you said, you (and many others here), have years of proven results with DT40. The argument for DI40 or DI50 in place of the DT oils is that they do hold up better on track, but that said, the XP oils are far superior for track use and using DI is a compromise over XP for those who don't want to have to change their oil between a race and street oil.

Quotes source post: 19960077

Thanks Charles. Any thoughts on the temp grid as it pertains to XP6 viscosity numbers at higher temps versus DI50? Looks like DI50 may hold up better. What am I missing?

Quotes source post: 19960077

I think a key conundrum here is what is your average street/occasional track user supposed to do here? I would love to run the XP products for hot track days, and switch back to DI for the street, but the prevailing advice seems to be don�t switch between oils. Do we run XP on the street and change every month? Or do we run DI on the track and hope for the best? The �no switching oil� edict seems to conflict with practicality. Ideally I would love to switch back and forth between the DI and the XP products.

Quotes source post: 19960747

I had a long conversation with Lake about it. Historically I ran Millers Nano for both street and track. It worked well. I asked Lake about what other oil i could use that was as high of quality or better than Millers that i could do the same thing. He said DI. I then asked him if DI would handle the temps on the track. He said yes. Yoi can see this on Brandons grid. From there i asked him if it would be better to do DI on the street and XP on the track. He said i could do that, but DI could handle the track temps. So i went to DI40 for the cold weather months and DI50 for the warm weather months and track. Maybe Charles will comment further.

Another thing to add is that we now have the ability to track the oil temp! This is huge. Taking a quick look at the temp will tell you what to do based on the oil you are running, whether on the track or street. There are several things that have been outlined many times that we can/should do based on your use case to keep the temps in case. There is always several factors to pay attention to here but heat is probably the top one.

Quotes source post: 19960747

Ideally you would run XP for the track, dump it immediately after the track weekend finishes, and then DI on the street. I would not run XP on the street and change it every month. As already noted, if you want to save oil changes and oil cost the next best thing would be to run DI on the track and street as a one size fits all. The "no switching oil" edict is valid but applies more to mixing oils that have additive packages that will clash or compete with one another. This is not the case with XP and DI lines. If you look at the XP line it is very similar to the DI line, both utilizing mPAO base stocks but the XP line has a stripped down detergent package and very high moly. I would not mix the XP and DI together but doing a full drain and fill from one to another is no problem.

Something to think about as it pertains to Driven. Before DI was available in the market for the M96, their was only XP (track) and DT (street). Over that time, Millers Nano was the oil that could do both. Now we have DI which can do both. The question is really whether you need to use XP at all on the track for a DE day, since DI has such an advanced formulation. DE sessions are 20-25 min. After consulting with Lake a number of times as i was making the switch from Millers Nano to DI, knowing that I have over 100 track days on my 3.6, as an instructor who runs in the fastest group, he recommended DI for both the track and street. Importantly, we are talking DE sessions, not club racing.

Quotes source post: 19960747

Switching between different oils of the same brand is not a problem, at least with Driven, as the products all share the same chemistry and are fully compatible with one another. Switching between brands can be an issue, but more than anything it might skew the first used oil analysis and not much more. Adding additives to oil is another story entirely - there are very few additives that I would even consider using and only in very specific instances, like a moly additive when using an A40 oil.

Quotes source post: 19960116

I will be meeting with Bill Alexander from Driven in the next few weeks again and will ask him this directly.

Quotes source post: 19964433

Thanks for the response Charles! If you get the chance, ask him if they would consider releasing DI60 again. After looking at DI50s high viscosity numbers at temp, DI60 becomes even more attractive.

Quotes source post: 19964467

We actually discussed that last week when he was here. I am pushing for it. As everyone knows, I do have some pull with Driven considering my very long relationship with them going back to almost the very beginning :-)

Another question for Charles. I�d used DT40 for the last ten or so oil changes. Last Fall a buddy sold me a case of DI40 which I used on my last change. I still have six quarts of DT40 along with the leftover three quarts of DI40 from the last change. Do you see any problem with a Driven DT/DI40 blend on the next change?

It would not be best practices to mix DI40 and DT40 in the same oil change. If you absolutely had to mix them in an emergency your engine isn't going to blow up but it's not recommended for a routine OCI. Sell or trade the 3 quarts of DI40 if you are going back to DT40 for good.

Quotes source post: 19964501

Hey Charles, a few weeks ago I was entertaining the idea of using 10w-60, and I found an old post of yours discouraging its use. https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post18283715 Would you say that your view has changed? I suppose the proper way to go about oil selection would be to test the old oil to determine whether it�s working well for the task.

Quotes source posts: 19966544, 18283715

My prior experience with 10w60s is with the BMW M spec oils from quite some time ago. They sheer out of grade quick, but that's more than a decade before Driven started making the DI oils. I'll work with Driven to see about having the DI60 brought back, even if it's something I have to buy a whole production run worth to make it available again.

Quotes source post: 19966052

Not ideal, but if you don't care about possibly skewing the UOA results, it won't be an issue. Both oils are compatible and there is no problem mixing them. That said, years ago I would mix DT40 and XP9 to make a "street friendly" blend. It worked just fine.

Quotes source post: 19967208

Charles, would Driven have temperature/viscosity tests for their oils?

Quotes source post: 19967208

Are you ok with Motul 300V 5W-50 as an oil in a 996 for daily / weekend country roads? I've seen chatter that the 300V oil isn't good for long oil drain intervals (for me long is 12 months 5000mi / 7500km) Wish Driven made 5W-50 rather than 15W-50

In the factory engine (prior to rebuild) I used Motul Sport 5w-50 due to oil pressure problems even in street driving. It worked well though I do not have any oil analysis to show objective numbers. The CST number were good on this oil as were the zddp. For those that have rebuilt with Nickies, I question the need for high moly content in oil since it bonds with aluminum. I cannot see how it helps.

Quotes source posts: 19967208, 19967213

Thanks, that�s very revealing. I was specifically looking at the BMW M spec oils, so I�m very happy to learn about their traits. And if they don�t, is Lake able to perform a test like this?

Quotes source post: 19960770

How cold is cold weather for you? I only drive my car from like May thru October so wonder if 40 is ok all year for me. I only do one oil change per year, before I put away for storage, because two seems silly when the car isn't driven for six months and I maybe put 2-3k miles on.

Quotes source post: 19967816

Here in the Chicago area it gets pretty cold in January and Feb with a week or two of sub zero temps, so the car typically sits in the garage with a trickle charger. But i will drive it in the winter when the temps get above 40. I usually do an oil change in late October and use DI40. Track season starts the end of April so I will change the oil and plan on using DI50 thru October. I always put in fresh oil after a track day and test the oil. To put it another way, I always have fresh oil in the engine for the track. Small price to pay for engine durability. My 2002 996 has ~65k miles with over 100 oil changes and 100 track days over the last 22+years. No bore scoring and oil tests are still good. Running great oil and keeping it fresh certainly has helped.

Quotes source post: 19967314

I wouldn't recommend 300V for street use for a normal 6 month or 5,000 mile interval. It did not do well when I ran it years ago. If you want a Motul product, they do make their Sport product, but I have zero experience with it. With regards to viscosity, the 15w50 technically is good down to -5F, but I've done repeated cost starts to and just below freezing with no ill effects on a 15w50. Just limit your rpms and load until the oil gets warm and you'll be just fine.

Quotes source post: 19967449

DI40: Kv100= 13.98 Kv40= 81.18 VI= 178 HTHS=4.2 Calcium, Wt.% 0.128 Moly, Wt.% 0.032 Phos, Wt.% 0.095 Zinc, Wt.% 0.107 DI50: Kv100= 17.9 Calcium, Wt.% 0.128 Moly, Wt.% 0.032 Phos, Wt.% 0.095 Zinc, Wt.% 0.107 Pour Point: -33F XP9: Kv100= 14.9 Calcium, Wt.% 0.0351 Moly, Wt.% 0.1403 Phos, Wt.% 0.0765 Zinc, Wt.% 0.0949 I'll work on getting the rest of the data for everyone.

Quotes source post: 19967212

Driven would say not to do this. The issue is that each oil is optimized for a specific purpose and if you mix the two that is no longer the case. IMHO one should find the oil that is the best fit for their application and use it as it was designed to be used. This is also why I don't believe in oil additives, because the optimization should occur in the oil formulation and be executed where it's best suited to be which is in production. I agree that it will work but it's just not a great practice. Thanks for all the knowledge you have been so kind to share on this forum.

Quotes source post: 19957569

How is your oil temp gauge installed? I.E. where are you sourcing the temp signal. That�s what my oil pressure looks like at idle on a 100 degree day with some pretty aggressive driving. If not silly hot out, it stays just below 2 bar.

Quotes source post: 19969887

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...emp-gauge.html

This is a good technical thread the kind I like, I just want to add a bit more info for some to chew on since oil threads are popular..Like I said I am not an oil specialist but I know a thing or two about engines and that means oil too, and the oil chemistry has gotten wild over the last 20 years, but somethings have not changed... The main difference between a 5w-50 and a 15w-50 is the base oil and the Viscosity Improves ( VI's) VI's are polymers like plastic or rubbers, tiny molecules that grow when they get hot. Think of them as plastic or rubber ***** that grow when hot and can squish and bounce back ..But if they get really hot and squished they can crack in half, of they can be "chopped up" ... The timing chains on our engines (The 5 chain more so than the 3 chain) will chop up the VI's and the oil will loose viscosity ..This is why M1 0w-40 will shear down to a 30 weight real quickly, it barley a 40 weight at the low end of the range a doesn't take much to shear down to a 30...same with M1 5w-50 , it is barley a 50 weight and will shear down to 40 weight pretty quickly.. The Vi's make up 6%-15% of the total volume of the bottle, there are quite a few different VI's and some are better than others/have different properties, but I don't know which is in what brand....nor is that info likely to be released but doing UOA's will tell you if the VIs are being sheared... Also speaking to 5w-50 to 15w-50 ......they start with different weight base oils...a 5 weight base oil is used in the 5w-50 then the VI's are added untill it reaches a 50 weight.....a 15 weight base oil is used in the 15w-50 and then VI's are added untill it reaches a 50 weight... The Vi's do have not lubricating properties,, they don't improve the slipperiness of the oil, they control the "oil flow" by making the oil thicker and slowing down the flow out of the Sump...Like I said before the M96 with the Integrated Dry Sump is not like a wet sump, it has very interesting characteristics...IF you look at the Viscosity vs Temp chart at say 230F that row of numbers if reflective of how much oil be in the Integrated Dry Sump during cornering, a low number means low oil level in the Sump and a high number means more oil in the Sump...This is important for our engines.. You can use pretty much any viscosity oil you want ( if it has Moly) if you just do normal commuting or cruising , but if you are an aggressive driver that like the curves and full throttle, you need to much more selective on the viscosity ... One example of this is the Mustang Boss with Coyote engine FoMoCo recommends a 0w20 oil and if it has Optional Track Pack ( same engine just bigger brakes and better suspension) they recommend a 5w-50 ...even though 90% of the owners never track the car...It's all about being safe not sorry... I have never seen an engine fail from a cold start with high viscous oil...Even at the point where it was so cold and the oil so thick that the engine would only turn over about 150 RPM, not even fast enough to start up, but wait until it was just a bit warmer and you could start the engine...and the engine would still go well over 100k miles back before muti-viscosity oils were available...I know for sure that the info about 75%-90% of engine wear happens at cold start, but I don't know that the "juice is worth the squeeze " I think that using a 0W oil may improve that cold start wear to maybe 70%-85% ...The oil passages in the M96 are huge and flow cold viscous oil well ...I think the engine will certainly be easier to start cold on a 0W oil and it will give better fuel mileage and even a couple more hp..... But I'm all about Robustness/Bullet-proofing...and low viscosity oils are not the answer..I have seen countless M96 engines fail from thermal runaway...Slakker who has built quite a few m96 engines in the last year or so has said that spun rod bearing are most of what comes in his shop over bore-scoring... Ester oils have the highest thermal protection. Proven by all Jet engine oils are Esters...Mineral oils or other synthetics wil burn to ash in a jet engine.. Piston engine airplanes do not use any synthetics...It was tryed years ago by Mobil AV1 and Shell ( PAO + Ester) and found that the Lead in AvGas would get in the oil from blow-by and the synthetic oil would not keep it in suspension and it would sludge up...and they also do not need the extreme high temperature benefits of the synthetics..They also still use single grade 50 weight or 40 weight or multi-viscosity 20w-50 o 15W-50 Ashless Dispersant ...Nothing thinner even whet flying from Southern California to Alaska....If the engine won't start due to too cold/viscous oil, they simply put and oil pan heater( about $200 ) on the sump for a 30 min-1 hour then crank the engine... Piston aircraft engines also do not use any detergents or anti-wear/anti-friction additives, they only use a Ashless Dispersant to suspend dirt and metal particles untill the oil can be drained.... ( 50 hours) They found the detergents and EP's would build up on pistons and valve and could cause detonation in flight and destroy the engine......Engine failures in aircraft are not very desirable especially during take-off.. How many people here knew that Porsche made some Aircraft Engines ?? I had the rare opportunity to see one while I was in Training at Porsche Training Center Headquarters in Reno Nevada... They were all suppose to be destroyed after Porsche killed the project...It looks very similar to a 993 engine .... mPAO's + Ester is also very good at thermal protection... It's pretty simple to avoid the thermal runaway.....just monitor your engines oil pressure and oil temperature....use the viscosity that the oil temp dictates,so that it never gets lower than 12cst a few steps higher will give a margin of safety...And monitor oil pressure for any drops...even the factory oil pressure gauge can see big drops if you are looking or recording...zbig drops in pressure means air/foam in the oil circuit and this needs to be address with "bolt-ons".. Oil Viscosity is a Proxy for "Oil Flow Speed " and OIl Pressure is a Proxy for Viscosity because it is a direct measurement of the " Resistance of Oil Flow" When you see a drop in oil pressure in a turn it means there is air or oil foam is pick-up by the oil pump due to low oil levels or poor control of oil slosh....All oil has "dissolved air " in it up to 9% of the volume even in new unopened bottles...9% is the saturated amount it can hold at Atmospheric pressures...when under pressure in the oil system the oil can hold more dissolved air before it becomes saturated and is only very slightly compressible...But when you see a drop in pressure it means that "entrained air or free air " has entered the system and is very very compressible..When this entrained air or free air reaches a rod bearing the temperature of the rod bearing will rise considerably and will need to cooled back down by incoming oil, if it doesn't get cooled back down or get so hot the oil can't cool it back down because the oil is not capable due to the oil cannot handle the temperature, then the thermal runaway happens and the bearing fails catastrophically..Rod bearings can handle about 30% aerated oil before thermal runaway...Main bearings can handle about 50% aerated oil before thermal runaway... that why the rod bearings usually fail first.. I have a few oils i like and I'm sure they will all tell me theirs is best or will work, but until I can get the data from them ( maybe never) and know as much as they do I won't know for myself..There is tons of different chemicals for making oil nowadays, but the Laws OF Physics has not changed....

Wow. Thanks. Remarkably insightful.

Quotes source post: 19970616

Glad you found it insightful... I just felt the need to put some thoughts/ramblings into text and save it to a file folder....

Quotes source post: 19970418

I flew a Mooney PFM (Porsche FlugMotor) years ago. I think they only made about 300 of them. It was very smooth and quiet compared to the Continental IO-360. Not very reliable though, piston airplane engines have to run at full power all the time. The Continental & Lycoming engines can run full throttle at redline for thousands of hours. The PFM couldn't do that even with all Porsche's experience building racing engines. The relentless drive for fuel economy is why we're getting all these very light oils. I just saw that Toyota is specifying a 0W-7.5 oil for some new cars.

Great info Skip !!! now please let us know which brand you use or recommend for street and or track thanks mike

Quotes source post: 19970418

Is this generally true for all engines, or specifically for flat-sixes? And I agree with Otto and EVO, that was a wonderful post!

Quotes source posts: 19959504, 19970826, 19970864

Ok y'all have twisted my arm...I use Motul 300v LeMans 10w-60 year round... It ticks all my boxes; 1 Has the right Viscosity for my use...( I see 260F+ oil temps measured right off the bearings) 2 is Dual Ester Core ( Esters are the best for extreme heat protection) 3 Has Moly 4 has Detergents to keep clean for street use 5 has anti-wear ( ZDDP) and anti-friction Boron/Moly 6 has anti-foam "Pure Race Oils' don't have detergents in them...I have noticed that many oil marketed as "Race Oil" has detergents and also high levels of ZDDP...The Federal mandate for lower ZDDP ( less than 800 ppm ZDDP to make the cats go from 80k miles to 120k miles)) does not apply to Race oils...So I think many oil companies just use that to get away from the Federal Mandate. . I put in fresh oil right before Track Day and will drive it on the street for the next 2k-3k miles or untill next Track Day.. But I am a Skeptic and my gut tells me there is a better oil that will tick all my boxes even better...Maybe the DI60 ( they are very similar) or the Redline products or the HPL products , Lake Speed has done several video's at the HPL Laboratory and it is very impressive... They have all the high dollar test equipment all the base oils and additives and blend their own oils in house, they are certainly capable of making the Ultimate Oil, but the product page doesn't give any details..They call thier race oil line "Bad *** Race Oil".it says its Esters ...but I don't know if it has any detergents for a little street use or not... Thanks !! .....Yes this is generally true for all engines..

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/573x314/img_4130_f45edb3af52cac135535b2ae44923cf88caf80dc.jpeg

Quotes source post: 19967314

They do. It's called FR50. I've used it for years in the past with fantastic UOA. I found it a great option to DT40 if you wanted something slightly more robust.

Quotes source post: 19971216

LMAOOO....Just kneel behind your Porsche and offer a small sacrifice to the Porsche Gods !!!! A little Knuckle-Blood will do !!!

Is high moly content necessary in Nicasil bored engines? My understanding is the molybdenum bonds to aluminum but not steel or nickel.

Quotes source post: 19979327

Moly bonds to aluminum and steel or Nikasil. ZDDP only will bind with ferrous materials. There are variables to how fast and thick the film formation is and that depends on surface speed, pressure, and temperature.

Quotes source post: 19979452

Ah, I have it backwards. I will continue to use DT40. I have noticed as temps in N. CA get warmer I get lifter noise and more smoke on morning startup. My guess is that the oil is thinner at shutdown and seeps past the (un-indexed Mahle rings) and leaks out of the lifter when warmer. I have not seen any increase in oil consumption in warmer weather and no oil in the UAOS catch can from cooler temps. Thanks For the clarification Charles. The 4.0l runs great and is,no doubt, better than the Alusil bores. 17k since I built the engine!

DR40 is a diesel oil. Not sure if that is a typo but be sure you are using the right oil. There is no doubt that Nikasil bores are better than Alusil and the 4.0 is sweet. Moly has an affinity for aluminum but Nikasil really doesn't score except in some extreme and obscure circumstances. You will almost never see a Mezger with scoring even in hundreds of thousands of miles, it just doesn't happen unless you get something like a badly leaking injector that you don't address over time. Nikasil bores require low tension rings so pound for pound you can get higher oil consumption. Mine never burned much oil but on the LN website it's stated it's not uncommon to use a quart / 1,000 miles.

Quotes source post: 19545767

Heres my 2nd UOA from last fall after one HPDE which reflects the Fuchs Supersyn oil that this garage uses. It�s definitely better in the viscosity # with similar mileage than the previous M1 sample. Tomorrow I�m having them do another change with the DI40 that I�m supplying along with a brake flush.

The DI40 has a higher viscosity at around 14.0+ cSt and will be a better candidate for use in a HPDE or even for street use. Enjoy it....

Well, unfortunately CPO has a couple weeks left. Not bad, I’m not worked up, but I wonder what PCNA would say. Next steps? This is #6. 81K miles

It is always better to get the native images rather than a picture of a screen. If you want a formal opinion from an expert open a ticket at LN Engineering. I don't see anything terrible in those pictures. 9A1 doesn't score like M9x but it can suffer from piston seizures (same end result but a different mode of failure). Either way you should run a high quality oil and change it frequently.

Quotes source post: 20076004

Interestingly enough I had called LN today. I asked if they knew of anyone that had dealt with scoring and had nexus with a CPO. The gentleman said no and seemed not to understand how a Porsche warranty might differ from a standard warranty company. I'm going to talk with the service writer at my local dealership and see what he says..I might suggest they also scope to see for themselves. This warranty is less than 3 weeks from expiration.

Whatever you do get your first meeting with the dealer on video do it ASAP and then get a lawyer

Quotes source post: 20076280

Are you supposed to notify the other person that you�re recording them? Or does that not matter in that setting?

Quotes source post: 20076165

I would open a ticket with LN to have Charles review the photos and your UOA. Your oil analysis didn't show elevated levels of Al or Si but it only had 1,600 miles on the oil -- the other factors are you were using it at a HPDE so driving hard and were using a thinner oil. I do think LN understands the difference between a Porsche warranty and an aftermarket warranty.

Quotes source post: 20076605

We get calls several times a day from people wanting my sales guys who aren't anywhere as technical as I am wanting us to do an over the phone pre-purchase inspection or provide reassurance that the car they want to buy is ok and won't have a problem. Yup, it's best to send a support ticket with questions like this. They all get sent to me directly for review.

Thank You Charles, I did open a ticket and got a rapid response from Stephen. I've already spoken with the writer at my local dealership and have forwarded the low fidelity photos to him to share with his techs. Moving forward and appreciate the support.

Quotes source post: 20077312

No problem. Stephen forwarded it to me and we reviewed it. I might not reply to the tickets personally, but I do review them all. If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Quotes source post: 20077339

Thank you for elevating this platform with your knowledge and contributions. You are a class act and no one can ever take that away from you.

No you do not have to inform the other person if your the victim

Pretty much as expected, service writer at dealer provided pics to techs and responded in email. They say “ they don’t believe there is anything of considerable concern here” In essence, in order for warranty work to be approved by “corporate” there needs to be deep striations in the cylinder walls that are hypothetically deep enough to catch a fingernail and a CEL that can be traced back to those defects. Without these they have no recourse with corporate. Im going to continue to drive and enjoy the car and use best practices to extend its life. I’ll start looking at LN’s “lite” process to potentially refurbish the engine in the future. Of course I don’t know what the other bores look like nor what they might look like at the bottom of the bores and there are no concerning symptoms evident currently. It’s frustrating knowing that the car was cared for quite well, I have 10 years of invoices the previous owner sent me, sold by a Porsche dealer with a CPO and still it wasn’t enough to overcome what I believe is a design flaw that will likely affect all of them. Sounds like Porsche has the problem solved. No EV will ever get scored bores.

Yes but the EVs will have some other problem. The battery will die and it will cost $20K for a new one. Every car has something it seems and especially the newer cars that OEMs are forced to try to squeeze water out of a rock for more MPGs. Porsche generally will ignore bore scoring and dealers will sell a bore scored car, it is the sad reality of the situation. Most dealer techs wouldn't even really know how to look at scoring pictures and don't have much experience doing a bore scoping inspection. Sorry to see this but your pictures appear to indicate that you are very early in the progression. You contacted the right person for advice and if you need to take action you have a gameplan. You could also consider switching to DI50 going forward as well and continue to change the oil frequently.

Quotes source post: 20082789

This one picture says it all. This is from a Taycan. Coolant distribution manifold. This is the tip of the iceberg. The Taycan "features": Six switching valves: These valves play a key role in directing coolant flow to different parts of the system. Three coolant pumps: These pumps circulate the coolant. A dedicated thermal management control unit: This unit orchestrates the control flow. Ten separate coolant temperature sensors: These sensors provide vital information for the control unit. No wonder these things are depreciation disasters.

Quotes source post: 20082789

Agree with all of that. I think it�s crazy they want to build all the 718�s as EV�s. It seems they�re having battery supplier issues which has delayed it but we�re close to seeing the last of the ICE roll off the line. I�ll use the rest of my DI40 before I store it and will likely go to the DI50 after that.

Quotes source post: 20082823

Brother and I were in Zuffenhausen in April and were fortunate to have factory tour tickets. I think normally they take you through the Taycan line, which I�m not terribly interested in, but for whatever reason we got to go see the 911 line which we both enjoyed immensely. Yesterday I read the Panorama magazine article they did on your Cayman X 4.2.. now that looks like a riot!

Would it be foolish to do HPDE with this car in its current condition or what additional steps could I take to mitigate the threats?

Quotes source post: 20088105

If you do want to track it, I'd for sure put in the DI50. Just know that Porsche would invalidate the remainder of the CPO for track use, but since they aren't doing anything for you, best to just enjoy the car as much as you can.

OK will do, thanks Charles. I’m going to check out Jake Rabys webinar tonight to see if I can learn anything.

Quotes source post: 20088573

See ya in there!

I'm also getting ready to order some Dl 50 for 987.1 a few days of hpde and mixed street driving. I saw in this thread that dl50 is better than dt50 even in the port injected cars, but not the other way around. Can you confirm that dl50(not dt50) is the one I should get?

Quotes source post: 20090022

Lake is a huge fan of the DI oils and even recommends it for the track on mixed use cars where the XP oils aren't practical. DI40 can be used where DT40 is specified - only reason not to is the cost. You don't want to use DT40 in any direct injected engine with power adders (i.e. turbo, supercharger).

Here�s an updated UOA from my spring O/C when we installed the DI 40�similar mileage and no track use. Don�t like that SI seems to be elevated. Also check out the latest YT from Slakker on oils and m96�s. Lots of good info there.

Quotes source post: 20208720

I am confused. The PDF attached to this post dated 8/6/25 does not look like DI40 (11.64 viscosity is too low, 2831 calcium is too high, 333 boron is too high, etc) and it says Fuchs Titan Super Syn 0W/40 is the oil type.

That is correct, This analysis was still Fuchs supersyn and we put the DI 40 in after draining. I didn’t send the sample until July so it was much later than the O/C..I will post the DI results when I change it before winter storage. Strange that the Boron number is so high as well….

Viscosity is the most important property of an oil. 11.64 cSt @ 100 C is a SAE30 grade. I would expect the results to be better with DI40 after a couple of OCIs.

Quotes source post: 20208720

Wow, that viscosity is low on the Fuchs oil for such low mileage.