When should I get upset?

Next week my 2003 C4S is going back into the dealership yet again for a coolant leak. This will be the 4th trip back for the same leak and on each previous visit they were "sure" they had located the leak and would have it fixed, and yet it still leaks. Maybe the engine just wants to be air cooled, but I'm starting to wonder if I should be getting upset about this or not, if I should be calling the 1-800# for Porsche customer service, going to a different dealership (3 hours away) or what? The leak isn't bad, a drop or two a day, not puddles or rivers, but getting rather annoying that they can't seem to get it fixed. Thoughts? Suggestions?

I would have a polite chat with the service manager and check the lemon law in my state... JM

Gee, I really wouldn't fool around with a 90K car. The is no such thing as a leak "that isn't bad" IMHO and for your dealer not to find it is eigher incompetence or a serious problem that cannot be easily detected. I'd go right to Porsche with your documentation on your visits. The "lemon" law may even apply. Keep all your documentation, pics, phone calls, letters, etc. You may need them. (Of course I'm **** when it comes to this kind of stuff, but you deserve better than you are getting!

A problem such as this on a brand new car, regardless of cost, is unacceptable. That you paid 90K for the car makes it even worse. I would politely but matter-of-factly tell them that they need to find another solution to this problem since their first three attempts were clearly not solving the problem. Good luck.

What's been done? I'd been told that leaks from the resevoir were common due to plastic connectors/tubes. Unless the dealer has already changed that out (or I'm mistaken), I'd insist that the tank and tubing and connectors be changed. If it's coming from the engine or radiators, I'd be quietly adding up the days for a lemon law complaint- if those exist in Canada. In my experience, PCNA has always come thru to satisfy the new car buyer, so it might be best to ask for the zone service manager and have him go over the car the next time he's at the dealership. Are you getting a Porsche loaner when you drop off the car? Since the next visit might be longer, I'd probably insist on one. Sorry to hear about your problem. AS

Porsche loaner are you kidding? The first thing they wanted to know was whether or not I 'qualified' for an Enterprise Rent-A-Car loaner by buying my car from their dealership (I didn't and I told them so because their sales manager couldn't/wouldn't swap with the dealer in Ohio who did have the car). So no, I won't be getting a Porsche loaner, in fact we have a petition going among local PCA members to try and get the dealership to offer Porsche loaners (there was a thread about this a week or so ago). They've replaced some hose, they've replaced some metal piece they thought might be porous and oozing coolant and I don't know what else exactly. Hasn't cost me a dime in repairs, just my time and frustration of having to go back for the same thing over and over. To add insult to injury my "check oil" light just came on, it seems that the car is using a fair amount of oil (there was a thread on this awhile back too). I'll have to check the lemon laws in my state and see what they say...

This seems to be the applicable section: d) If the manufacturer receives actual notice of the nonconformity, it shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to conform a motor vehicle to the applicable warranties, if: (1) The same nonconformity which substantially impairs the use and value of the motor vehicle to the consumer has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents or authorized dealers within the term of any warranty or during the period of one year following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever is the earlier date, but such nonconformity continues to exist; (2) the vehicle is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days during such term or period, whichever is the earlier date; or (3) there have been 10 or more attempts to repair any nonconformities which substantially impair the use and value of the motor vehicle to the consumer and such attempts to repair have been attempts by the manufacturer or its agents or authorized dealers. It sounds like since I am well within the first year, that the test is 4 times to fix it, and since they've had 3 shots already, it would seem that the Lemon Law applies after the next time I take it in and I can simply request a refund and return the car if necessary. Are others reading it the same way I am?

Ghost, it seems like your dealer is not working hard enough. i recently had a coolant leak in my 2001 (9k miles). the dealer repaired the reservoir and it still leaked a little ( that they determined). he did not want to give me the car until they fixed it properly. they kept the car a few extra days to sort it out. i did not purchase the car from them but they still wanted to give me a loaner ( a rental but still a free loaner) for the time it was in the shop. i did not take it because we have extra cars. you should contact PCNA. this sounds like a problem that your dealer should be able to fix. roy

Once again, make certain you've got all the documentation you can, even before you talk "lemon law" to the dealer. You surely want to draw out all the information you can before the "conflict" begins.

I've saved all of my documentation, and will do so from the upcoming trip to the shop next Monday. If, after next Monday they can't get it fixed, that would be 4 times to the shop for the same problem and no resolution, which would seem to trigger the lemon law from my interpretation of the statute section quoted above.

I had a similar experience with a dealership and my former Boxster. They could not fix it. I called Porsche Cars of North American and asked to speak with the regional representative. I told him story and that I was unhappy with the inability to fix the problem. He was very helpful and contacted the delearship. My car was out of service for longer than yours and he arranged for PCNA to pay one months lease payment for my loss of use (it was a total of 27 days during various trips - and they gave a rental, just not a Porsche).

i had a coolant leak from my 2001 C4 that one day started to leak like a faucet! the dealer found the problem the first time though. the lemon law in most states says that a dealer gets "3 reasonable attempts" to "repair any single problem that significantly impairs any critical function of the vehicle." if after the third attempt they still haven't been able to fix it, normally you can get a new vehicle. tell the dealer you're contacting the better business bureau (free!) and you can probably get some very prompt attention.

Well here are the results of today's trip to the dealership: 1) Dealership found that yes indeed the car still leaks. 2) Dealership brings my car around after about 90 minutes and tells me the leak should be fixed this time. 3) I tell them this is the 4th time I've been in for the same leak (don't mention Lemon Law) but I have the service guy acknowledge that on the paperwork that this is the 4th time for the same leak. 4) When asked "What did you do to fix it this time?" The service guy went away for awhile and then came back and told me that they placed an extra clamp on the upper radiator hose going to the engine. Hmmm I think, gee, if that's all it was, why not put extra clamps everywhere??? Why stop at 2? Razors are up to 4 blades now, why can't I have 4 clamps??? So the big question is whether or not the car continues to leak. I've wiped up the garage floor again and will keep a look out for more drops of coolant on the floor. There is a paperwork trail showing every time I've been in for the leak and today's paperwork was clearly marked that it was the 4th trip for the same leak which triggers my state's Lemon Law. I haven't called the BBB, I haven't called Porsche. I want to see if the leak isn't fixed yet. If it is, I guess I'll have to let it drop, despite the fact that I'm carrying around all that weight of an extra clamp! If it isn't fixed, what is the consensus suggested next step???

Regional Representative for Porsche.

You just spent 90k or so on a auto in a somewhat weak auto market and you're just annoyed... They should be jumping all over your problem to fix it and you should be jumping all over them if they're not. I surely wouldn't last as long as you. Problems should be fixed after the first visit, worst case second visit. After that, I am going to the Mfg, area rep and will raise a perverbiale stink.

I completely understand your frustration here. When you buy a new car (especially an expensive one), you expect everything to be perfect. However we all know that something mechanical is far from perfect. If you are LITERALLY getting a "drop or two" of coolant is it that big of a deal? As long as the condition doesn't get worse or have the potential to harm your car. I'm picturing someone bending down on my garage floor and putting two drops of liquid down with an eye dropper. Again I have mixed feelings about this situation and yes the dealer should be bending over backwards to rectify your problem, but does this issue really call for a lemon law? My .02

If it still leaks and if I were you, I would bring it to another dealer and have him inspect and record the leak on the service order. Now you have a third party acknowledging the leak. That might be helpful in case the original service dealer insists it was fixed. At that point it's all over if you want it to be. IMHO

Lance --- While I agree w/ you that minor coolant drippage such as what Ghost Rider is experiencing may not be ample impact to a "critical system" to justify invoking the Lemon Law, the root cause of his frustration stems from the inability of the Porsche system to resolve this seemingly simple issue after repeated attempts. I wouldn't stand for a chronic fluid leak of any sort, particularly on a high end car, or the inability of the authorized dealer w/ "trained" technicians to bring closure to the issue. Ghost Rider, the next step, whether the leak reappears or not, is to contact PCNA to speak w/ the regional rep, imho. The extra clamp fix is bogus and a bandaid. If the engineering process at PAG designed that coolant line connection to have two clamps, it would've come that way from the factory. Something else is not kosher for the leak to be so persistent. After four trips, you can't possibly be worried about pissing off your dealer's service department, as they have not earned your business and have thoroughly demonstrated their technicians' ineptitude (I cannot believe that this sort of thing still occurs in this day and age ). Find another dealer that will treat you right with technical knowledge and efficient service. fwiw..... Jeff

I wouldn't accept any drops of liquid of any kind at all. Don't "just accept" the problem. Get on their asses and get it fixed or get them to get you a new car. Forget the fact that it is a machine and may be a pain in the ***, the environmental impace of your car dripping coolant on the ground as well as animals and even kids touching or ingesting it is enough. I'm not a greenpeace advocate or anything, but the only thing that should be dripping from any car is condensation from the ac compressor!!! AND DON'T LET THEM GIVE YOU ANY CRAP ABOUT YOUR PONYTAIL!!! Bobby

They sell this stuff at Wal Mart, could be just what you need.

Yeah Stop Leak, why didn't I think of that? While I'm add it, I better coat my pistons with Teflon too! I think it was Lance asking how big the drops are under the car. I'd say they range in size from a nickel to a half-dollar size drop, and as I think I said previously a drop or two a day depending on whether or not the car is driven multiple times in a day (more drops if it is) and of course I have no way of knowing how many drops I might be leaving on the road while I drive. I'm off to go inspect under the car again...

Are you sure it's only leaking to outside of the engine? In another words, have you checked your oil?

I had a coolant leak problem that was the fault of the cap. I used to top off the fluid and the expansion was blowing fluid by the cap. The floor stains were wider (fluid dripping off different componants). BTW your response to the stop leak suggestion was remarkable in it's restraint.

Agreed. I hoped for something better! Seriously, I was going to suggest chewing gum, but I figured hey, it's a 911, why not splurge for the real McCoy?

Ghost- I don't think I would accept 2 hose clamps as an answer. The next major fluid loss could be 100 miles from nowhere. I'd talk to the district service manager (or zone manager or whatever he's called) and ask for instruction on invoking the lemon law. You'll probably get their attention. As an item of interest, my son-in-law invoked the law over a malfunction of the nav system on a Cadillac sedan. His claim was totally upheld, with the entire purchase price applied to his replaement car, which was somewhat cheaper and therefore resulted in a refund, despite 12,000 miles on the car. Good luck AS

Well here is some more to add to the story. I checked for leaks and there are 2 new drops on the garage floor, one small, one about the size of what they were before. I guess like a gillette razor, 2 clamps just aren't good enough anymore, I probably need 3 or 4, perhaps lined with chewing gum as FXHottie suggests. Here's the kicker, I just got a call from [phone removed] and it was some woman calling about the service I had done on the 10th (Monday) to see if I was completely satisfied. I told her no, that was the 4th time in the shop for the same problem and the problem evidently still exists that my next step was to call Porsche and ask to talk to their regional rep. Was the service staff courteous? (OH I get it she has a script) Well YES they were. Was the cashier courtous? Again yes the cashier handed me the keys and paperwork Were the repairs explained to me? Yes, I was told they placed a 2nd hose clamp on my upper engine radiator hose to stop the leak. Ok then you will be receiving a survey in the mail from the manufacturer and we request that you give the top score of completely satisfied so that your dealer's service department receives a passing score. Uh.... wait a minute, what about my leak? The car still leaks! Oh well once your problem is fixed we would appreciate the survey being filled out completely satisfied then. Conversation over. Thanks, goodbye. Ummmmm how exactly will I ever be "completely satisfied" even after the problem is fixed? I'll be glad the ordeal is over, but I think we are past the point of ever being "completely satisfied", that is unless of course Porsche wants to swap me even-up for say a Carrera GT or something, then I might start thinking about being "completely satisfied."

There was an article in either the NY Times or the New Yorker some time this summer about how car companies are performing pre-survey phone calls to try and prime you to make the correct responses to the surveys. The car company (Porsche) contracts with some company to call you about the service and try and get you to think that you should answer excellent to all the questions. If you don't answer "excellent", they try and get you to see your experience in a different light. All the time you think that this is the survey, but it actually is not. Then when you actually receive the paper in the mail you are more likely to answer "excellent" for each question than you would have originally. (Purhaps because you have already yelled at somebody about service problems.) It makes me realized how subtle the manipulation of our opinions has become.

You ever notice how those satisfaction surveys never ask you if you are satisfied with the survey process itself? I ended calling PCNA yesterday and reporting everything to someone there named Kelly who said she would contact the dealership and that someone from PCNA would be assigned my case and would call me back my Monday afternoon at the latest. She also suggested that I take the car back over to the dealership because that was the fastest way for Porsche to do anything about my issue. I kindly responded that I did not see the value in taking some of my time to go back to a dealership that had failed to fix my car on 4 prior occasions unless some regional rep or different set of mechanics were there to inspect my car and determine the actual fault and repair it.

When I left the garage earlier today I had 1 drop on the floor, now I have 4, they are multiplying! I guess that "2nd clamp" didn't do the trick afterall... No word from PCNA today, but I don't expect to hear anything until Monday, their deadline.