What other brand would you buy?

I spent some time this evening going through a number of different threads on this and another Porsche board. Lot's of threads with complaints about Porsche quality, having just had a RMS go out on my 02 996 I can certainly understand some of the perspectives. The problem that I have is what other car I'd buy to replace the Porsche should things get to that point. I have a 99 MB E class that I've had a number of electrical problems with, their M class is a disaster and that makes me cautious regarding something like an SL. I certainly can't see Jag as an alternative, the new Maseratti coupe looks interesting but the lack of dealerships concerns me when I'm traveling in the car. American cars continue to have quality problems as far as I can tell. I've owned lots of BMW's in the past with mixed service history. The only car that seems pretty bullet proof these days is Lexus. We have a 98 LS400 that hasn't had a single problem and the dealership has been great with service, why they even give you a Lexus loaner when I take the car in for service (unlike my MB and Porsche dealers who give me Buick rentals!) So with all of the above, what are the votes for a high quality option for the Porsche?

"There is no substitute"

My next car will "hopefully" be an Aston Martin AMV8. When I originally looked to buy my 996, I also looked at the DB7 Vantage. I wanted a new car but the DB7 Vantage was out of my price bracket at �107,000 so I bought this porker at �65,000. However the new AMV8 is agressively priced and obviously is aimed at the 911 market with its chief exec coming from Porsche. Estimated price for this asskicker is �70,000. It'll pack 370bhp from a 6sp 4.3ltr V8 front-mid-mounted powertrain with top speed of 170Mph and 0-60 around 4.5sec. And if that's not enough for you, there's a 500bhp supercharged version! It's a real contender as it it is now much more affordable. As for looks. This car has serious wow factor easily as much as the 911 but IMHO much more. It's shorter than the 911 but wider. It has lines that make me drool. This car is female on the outside but all male under the bonnet. Check it out: As for service dealership: both Gaydon and Newport Pagnall factories are a few hours drive from me. I don't know about the US but in the UK, Aston has a large dealership network nationwide. Sure it will be a Ford, Jagua, BMW, Aston interbread beast. But the 997 will probably be also interbread. For example, the gearbox will almost definitely come from Audi. There will no doubt be other bits from VW/Audi too. I am afraid that the days of Porche's uniqueness are over. Even they are afraid of this. Hence their move into the SUV market and a Porsche/VW mix to boot. There is even talk of a 997 saloon! Porsche will for a long time head up the supercar marketplace. But their customer base will dwindle. I am living proof of this being a 996 owner and bought from new and very unhappy with its reliability and build quality and after service. The rest of the market is catching up with them and they too have had a lot of experience building performance cars. If companies like Gemballa, Cargraphic, Ruff take on the AMV8, Porsche and the 911 will be really hard hit. Ill give it 5 years max. At which time I would put bets that they will go into panic mode. The 997 will be out but the Boxter and SUV marketplace will be the cars that carry them. Not the Carrera. Its a real shame. The 911 is a beautiful car no doubt about it. But it has had too many teething problems and Porsche haven't done a lot to win back confidence from its customers. For example, the RMS issue is a no brainer. All pre 02 996's should have been called in and had the RMS done before it got out of hand. The same for the gearbox issue. The worst may be yet to come for them. There are a lot of newer 996s on the road now and many of the pre 02 996's are now beginning to show the problematic signs that we all know about. They need to get their act together now before its too late.

Infinitis are wonderful cars, and the dealership experience is first-class, too. You know, I've owned 911s for the last 14 years, and every single one of them has had some nagging flaw. The 2.7 911s had engine cases that would pull headstuds due to heat problems -- top end rebuild, guaranteed. The 911SC snapped the "improved" headstuds which broke instead of pulling out of the case, blew airboxes at every backfire, and the chain tensioners were subject to failing, which would cost you a new motor if it happened. The 3.2 Carreras had problems with premature valve guide wear; you could have a car with 10,000 miles and have to pop for a top-end rebuild. The 964 was well-known for cylinder head leakage, dual distributor and dual mass flywheel problems. The 993s were plagued with wiring harness problems early on, and they all have tiny air-injection ports in the cylinder heads that clog with carbon and trigger the check engine light, making the car fail emissions and the fix is to take apart the top end to clean the ports -- $6k or so -- and they're just gonna clog again. My 95 Carrera 4 lost its rear main seal at 30k miles -- RMS problems are nothing new for 911s. And if you own a 911 Turbo -- I had an 87 930 -- there are so many potential things, it will keep you up nights if you allow yourself to worry about it. My point is, you own the 911 because you love the 911, but it's not a Camry, it's a sensitive, powerful work of automotive art. It's really a race car that's been adapted for the street (less so in the 996's case, of course). Compared to a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, etc., it's unbelievably reliable. Ever priced a 30k service on an older Ferrari? $5k at least. If you want a bulletproof luxury car, a Lexus or Infiniti will serve your needs. If you want the thing there is no substitute for -- you just have to live with the problems and hope Porsche will step up for you when the time comes -- and in most instances, it seems they are pretty good about doing it. If it concerns you, trade the car when the warranty's up and look for another one that's new or certified. What it's really about is walking away from your 911 at the grocery store, and turning around every four steps just to look back at it. It's feeling rejuvenated at the end of a long work day because you get to drive it back home. It's smiling every time you hear that motor burble into life, and the huge grin you get when you throw it into third gear on the freeway and floor the pedal. Isn't that why we're here? Vic 99 C2 cab

Vic, after all I have said in the last few days of this car, I just read the best interpretation yet. Thanks for this. It's put me back into shape. Your right on the nail. Every time I look at my car the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. I love her to bits. I just wish she was more reliable and it gets my back up that PUK don't care about the customer. You guys in the US are so lucky. In your country, customer service is paramount. Even the parking attendant calls you Sir! In the Uk the parking attendant will call you "pal" at best! The same goes for any other type of service you get here in the UK and PUK are no better. No doubt about it. She's gaaagious! But youv'e gotta admit the AMV8 is a looker too and when I visted the Aston showroom, the people there actually called me Sir!

Well, there's always the Noble W12. And supposedly any Ford dealer will have about 80% of the parts used in the Ford Cosworth engine. Noble W12 specs Noble W12 Supercar

Nicely put Vic...especially the part about the gorcery store, I 100% agree... As far as Jim's question, there really isn't anything from Lexus or Infinity that is in the same category. If you want to give up your p-car your options prob are: MB SL MB CLK BMW M3 Jag XKR 2 or 3 Corvettes (would be about the same price ) or you could go with hi-po sedans: Audi RS6 MB E 55 AMG New BMW M5 (wait a few months)

I have to go with the following solution: - 996 cab AND - Aston Martin, coupe Yeahh Baby...Why compromise??? :-)

996 C4 Coupe, subjected to everyday hard driving, 85000kms and not a single problem myself. I doubt other cars take the same everyday beating/driving such as 911 drivers put thruogh their 911's in general either. 911 appeal to a very special crowd The grass always looks greener on the other side...

Hey stratpa, I wish I could afford both. I got the Cab but I couldn't afford the Aston too........never mind owning them.......just runnig them. Ouch Baby!

Scouser: Know what you mean. I was just being cheeky (is that what you Brits say?) :-)

Nah you weren't being cheeky. Porsche are cheeky cos they won't fix my car. In Brit language your just "avin a laugh" which is not derogative. It's a suportive coment with an adjoining pun. We like that over here :-)

Those graphs highlight an interesting point - just about everyone's got problems of some sort. I've been bothered about the fact that Porsche invests less and less in the manufacture of each newer car (and seems to boast about it) but these numbers show they're clearly "better" than most. It's also important to note that if we were willing to give up two seconds on the zero to sixty time and a bunch of horsepower, I'm sure today's 996 would be more "reliable." - some would prefer that option, some wouldn't.

What about the acura NSX. Althouh the design of that car is almost 14 years old that car delivers supercar performance with honda accord reliability. I'm sure that NSX drivers don't need to worry about nagging problems like RMS, trans, electical, etc. Its better to have a car on the road rather than in the shop regardless of make. Bob

I've driven a couple of late-model NSX's ... very fun to drive, turns heads, but it's that Accord interior that bothered me :-) Looking at my triple black cab right out the window right now ... it's saying, leave work early, come drive me. Vic 99 C2 cab

The Aston Martin AMV8 looks great but gonna wait and see how performance oriented it is. I love my Porsche in everyway even with all that is said about the car. Rewards me everytime on the track plus more. Can't get enough of it-It's my baby : ). Other options on other cars man for the sport oriented man that's gotta be the Lotis Elise but don't know how much of a daily driver it is but boy on the track it's wicked. Regards. Mike

no kidding. i have a few appts today and am contemplating which route to take from the office just to drive my p-car the truth is, there aren't many alternatives to p-cars when weighing all criteria. personally, i'd be very cautious about british and italian cars--as much as i love them--but their reliabilty/quality is very suspect...and i'm not trying to start a flame war!

Yup It would take two cars to replace the P-car. A Lotus Elise and an Audi RS6 and I'd still rather have my C4 Cab.

Hmmm, Probably another Pcar but I will say I'll consider others when the time comes. Maybe M5.

You know how many times I have gone through this exercise? Many, many times... Lotus Esprit, Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, BMW M3, they do not come close to the overall experience of a 911... reliability in those cars (maybe less so in the BMW) is awful... I am told that Aston Martins are extremely expensive to maintain... and they never had my attention (well maybe the first Aston use by 007... that looked sweet even today) until the new models came out (Vanquish). The Aston Martin AMV8 is a contender to many... not to me, I need the rear seats for the kids I would love to see how the new BMW M6 will measure up to the 911 (997)... that is one sweet looking car. But I am sure it will be far more detached in the sport feel than what a 911 is... As I have told my wife... I will keep the cars I have today for as long as I can (meaning that even if I buy a new car we will not get rid of them). I will look into buying a 993 if I can find it in the same color combo (see my other post in the 993 forum - Vesuvius) I had before they stole it. I will wait to see what the 997 looks and feels like and decide then if that is the car that will ultimately grow old with me. That is what I am looking for now... a new car that will be reliable and stay with me as I grow old in the outside (I will always be a child inside).

If you are going with a high-performance GT car, the leading contender (in my book) is the Bentley Continental GT. Supposedly sold out here until mid-2005!

The selection really narrows down if you want a daily driver that you can also take to D E Events! At Road Atlanta, the late model cars that run in Group A are only a hand full. The last Panoz open track days was in Sept. and believe it or not, there were more Z06's ( ~ 16) than any other make! Next most popular make, as I seem to recall, was Porsche, a couple of "cup cars", 2 TT 996's, a GT-2 (wicked fast), and I think a GT3. A couple of Vipers were in, and NSX had a couple also. Only late model BMW's were 1 or 2 M3's. 1 Jaguar showed up, a lumbering 4 door sedan that did make it around the track, but was a rolling chicane! Not a lot to chose from, when you look closely! The new NSX (2005 model), probably will run towards the front again, and the reliability (except for Tires) has been good. The newest Viper is also fast, but they have had reliability issues! BMW "M6" will likely be a runner, the M3 holds its own, but the Z3, Z4 haven't been at the front. Anything Italian is going to have issues, but both Ferrari & Maserati are runners, when they are working. When you take em to the track, that narrows the field down a bunch. Hope Y'all continue running the Porsches, they are very competitive cars that do really well on the track. Cya later!

Consider the price range of a C2, and that this car will be taken to autocross, race track, workplace, long vacation drives, grocery store and country club, the catch phrase "there is no substitute" really applies IMHO. The C2 (in my case the C4S) will feel at home in all these places in stock form straight out of the box. I don't believe any other marque can fulfill those requirements in that price range. Just so y'all don't think I'm just blind Porsche fanatic, I also want the Elise or Z06 for auto'X and track, the Jag XKR for the country club, and the AMG32 or 55 for highway and mountain cruising, and BMW 5 series for hauling a family of 5. At the GT3, GT2 and TT prices, Porsche faces a bit more competition. If you are going to go that high, one brand model that comes to mind is the 360.