Another PCCB story

I apologize for the lengthy posting�� I wanted to share this with anyone considering PCCB. I had the rare opportunity of testing 2 cars side by side (a 2002 GT2 with PCCB and stock pads as well as the green race pads against a 2001 Twin Turbo with stock brakes except for pagid orange pads. I don�t profess to have any mechanical knowledge � but I believe that I have some common sense and I pursued this issue in a proper way. Purchased the GT2 new on August 26, 2002 When I purchased my GT2 I fully had intentions to use the car on both the street and for Driver�s Education classes (on the track). The reason I purchased the GT2 is because, at that time, it was advertised as THE hottest street legal car Porsche had ever built. A large drawing factor was that this car was equipped with the new Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB). All the advertisements I read stated that the brakes would never wear out, would last the life of the car, would never �fade�, that they weighed less, stopped faster, etc. I was previously unable to get Ceramic Brakes with our Turbo because, even though it was listed as an option, we were told that �they were not available on the Turbo�. I soon learned that the only thing that was true about these PCCB brakes was that they weighed less. In October of 2002 I took the car to Watkins Glen for a Driver�s Education event. I brought the GT2 and our 2001 Twin Turbo and I was looking forward to testing it out. While going around the track I noticed that with the GT2 there was a slight brake fade on a couple of the turns. Because the weather was cold I thought perhaps the brakes had not warmed up enough. After being sure that the brakes were hot I was going down the back strait, hit my brakes hard for the chicane turn, and actually shot past the turn and into a cone because the brakes did not work � there was significant brake fade. (The cone put some scratches on the car and it cost me $800 to refinish it). Before I left the Glen I wanted to try the same thing again, as a carefully planned test, and again I went straight past the chicane turn because the brakes failed again (however, I anticipated the failure and didn�t hit any cones this time). When I got back home I started researching this issue. I didn�t know what the cause was � and I didn�t know who to talk to. The Porsche dealership said there were no issues with the brakes what-so-ever and all the materials I read said how great the brakes were. I had a feeling that I had become a guinea pig and that I was one of the first people to really test out these brakes. So I contacted a number of senior instructors in our club and they gave me many suggestions on who to contact. After numerous call I finally was directed to call Andreas Boehm (Pagid Motorsports Race Engineering Support) and he said that �Although Pagid is the OE brake pad supplier for the GT2�s Ceramic brake we are not authorized for the time being to give any recommendations about the PCCB brake�. Andreas said that I should speak with Alwin Springer (Porsche Motor Sports) or Eric Bloss. ********************************************************* February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports "I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I�m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires. While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this. I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock). Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I�m hoping that I won�t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance." Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem� so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad � I had been using the sport pad) ********************************************************* This was quite a surprise to me but after learning about the �new� race pads I immediately ordered a set. After a couple of DE events, with the new green race pads, I can honestly report that my 2001 Turbo will still stop more consistently and faster than the GT2. I verified this with a number of instructors who also drove both of our cars. In August of 2003 I was at Watkins Glen � with brand new green �race� pads on the GT2 and new pagid orange pads on the Turbo. Both cars were driven about the same amount of time and at the same levels of speed. When we pulled the tires to check the pads the Turbo had almost 2/3 of the material left � but the GT2 had worn down to shreds of pad material. Not only had the GT2 pads worn down completely � but we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was �flaking� out of the rotor. At this point I didn�t want to drive the car any longer because I was concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic). After returning from the Glen in August we took the car to Brandywine Porsche to get the rotors replaced � assuming that warranty or common sense would apply here � (having only 1700 miles on the vehicle from new) � but the service manager said that since I had taken it to the track it would not be covered. They then proposed that I get the 2 (not four) front rotors and pads replaced at a cost of $17,940.00 (and I have the quote). After some recent browsing through Rennteam.com (Porsche technical discussion forum) I found this remark posted on June 11, 2003 in regards to PCCB performance � although I can�t verify if this is correct � it sounds to be true. ********************************************************* Rennteam.com June 11, 2003 �Here's PMNA's answer: The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA. Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly. The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check the rotors and pads periodically.� (1500 MILES!!!!!!! Not the 185,000 miles that they listed in Christophorus Magazine, not the �allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself� as listed in Porsche�s literature about PCCB. Obviously I, and a few select other individuals, learned this well after we had purchased our cars.) ********************************************************** Here are some quotes about the brakes that I read. ********************************************************** Autoweek, July 10, 2002. "The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively." (As illustrated here in the tests they performed � the very expensive Ceramic Brakes did not stop the lighter GT2 as quickly as the heavier less expensive Turbo brakes). ********************************************************** Porsche Panorama, April 2001 "In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the owner�s manual it better say �don�t put your foot on the brakes unless you look in the rear view mirror first.� There might also need to be a word about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little dust. They are reported to be very durable � as in forever � but be prepared to buy pads a bit more often." (�very durable � as in forever� Since when is 1700 miles �forever�). ********************************************************** Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001 "In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph) without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers (185,000 miles)." (All of a sudden Porsche is now quoting 1500 miles?????) ********************************************************** Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature: "Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at least, wear and tear) Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new technology shatters benchmarks in every respect. While it�s dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather. PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp on the brake pedal. It�s service life is every bit as effortless: the ceramic�s hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time indeed." (�shatters benchmarks in every respect� Which benchmarks � the brakes fade when hot, wear out many times faster than other systems, cost many times more, and don�t brake as well � are they talking about benchmarks going the wrong way? This brake system DID NOT �maintain it�s frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power� as I demonstrated at Watkins Glen). ********************************************************** Suncoast Motors � on their website: "The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme conditions on racetrack and road. At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately 1,700 �C. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs, temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use - it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade resistance. In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones. What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding performance in the wet. This kit is the complete retro-fit kit for a Turbo 996 or Carrera 4S. This kit includes all of the necessary parts for the installation. Call for more information, and freight pricing. Retail price is $14,000." Suncoast is offering the full set of PCCB for $12,995.95 (I wonder if that set includes 4 versus the 2 rotors that Brandywine quoted me $18K for) ********************************************************** If I spend more time looking around I can guarantee that I will find other articles, many of which were published by Porsche, that state that these brakes are the best money can buy. I don�t know if this issue should fall under warranty, defective parts, or false advertising but as far as I�m concerned when I spend $190K on a vehicle that�s advertised as an outstanding high performance vehicle, with brakes that are beyond compare, and those brakes wear out within 1700 miles, and Porsche wants me to pay $18K to replace two rotors (and I�ll still face the same problems because the PCCB brakes will not last), something is clearly wrong here. I don�t feel that this should happen and I am pursuing this issue further. If anyone has questions please send me an email at [email removed] .

I just ordered a GT3 a couple weeks ago with the PCCB. The salesman showed me an article about the GT2 with more aparently false claims in some kind of sales manual he had. I had him photocopy it for me, if you'd like I fax you a copy to add to your collection of aparent misinformation.

I'd love to have a copy. Please fax it to [phone removed]. Thanks. Mark

I can't believe Porsche would release sub-par brakes like that!! Where is the exhaustive testing Porsche is known for? Where is quality control? I think you should take the car to another dealer and have them fix it under warranty.

I just sent it. Let me know if that is one you had or not. I choose to order the PCCB brakes based on three things... 1.) Salesman assurances 2.) Unsprung weight advantage 3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be. I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all. I'm not quite sure what to think about the whole thing anymore. I don't doubt your expirience but it just seems so hard to believe comming from Porsche. Please keep me updated on new developments. Thanks. Brian

Can you not just get some steel rotors to replace the ceramic ones? It may not be the most desirable solution but you wouldn't have to worry about the brakes when you track the care.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Something about floating rotors or something liek that (dont' quite understand what all the terminology means).

Can't offer any help, but this is one of the most interesting posts I've read and hope you will keep us informed on how PCNA handles this issue. You sound pretty calm considering the investment and the expectations Porsche literature has led us all to have for the PCCB system. Personally, I would have been pretty hot with the folks at Brandywine! Best of luck and I would hope that PCNA resolves the issue equitably. How they handle it will say a lot to all of us about the company.

That is outrageous. I agree with Shortshift that the manner in which this is resolved with tell us a lot about the company. Please let us know what happens.

What I don't understand is how Porsche test drivers can be going around the Nurburgring in 7 minutes with these brakes and you can't get them to work for a DE. Not to be offensive, but how much driving experience do you have? The reason I ask is because if you are not an expert it is easy to overuse the brakes and overheat them. Any brakes can be blown out this way.

Since I plan on continuing DE events - I am installing a new set of brembo monoblock 6 piston calipers and steel rotors. Even if Porsche replaces the ceramic rotors I won't be using them because I can't afford to replace them every 1500 miles or so. I'll let everyone know how this progresses.

I certainly agree that I AM NOT AN EXPERT - but I did have some experts confirm my results first hand - they tested both cars numerous times at the track.

That all sounds in line with what I have heard elsewhere. If they were so great, how come they are not on the cup car or the GT3RS race cars? They are a cool gimmick but the technology is not there yet. I also heard there is a battle between PAG and its supplier about the design and functionality of these units.

"I choose to order the PCCB brakes based on three things... 1.) Salesman assurances 2.) Unsprung weight advantage 3.) The assumption (perhaps incorrect) that it will be a positive thing for resale value on this limited production car and that I can retrofit cast iron if need be. " relying on #1 when a commision to the $8k option is attached is probably not a good idea. #2 can be achieved via Brembo in two piece steel rotors for just about the same amount of money (actually less once you sell your stock GT3 brakes that get replaced after you take delivery of the car). #3 would seem to be just the opposite as the facts about these crappy brakes and there very high replacement cost become more available. it shouldn't take long before the resale on a PCCB equipped porsche declines by the cost of replacing the brakes with decent quality ones which last more than a few track events. "I have been following the issue and it seems like half the things I read are from others with expiriences just like yours and the others are people that say they have no problems at all." fwiw, i too have been following this and it would seem to me the overwhelming weight of feedback on the PCCB is that they suck a$$.

" ... concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic)." Has this really happened, that is shattered? " .. we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was flaking out of the rotor." Would this not be normal wear? Where the fibers missing or where they lifting up?

I don't know if they would shatter or not. Not being familiar with this type of rotor I doubted that they would warp - and my experience with ceramic - it normally shatters (doesn't bend). With the gouges in the rotor, we put new pads on, ran around the track a couple times, checked the rotors again and the holes were getting larger and deeper (quickly I might add). The flaking was like sand - the rotors were starting to disintigrate and this material continue to come out......it was a bit unnerving to say the least.

Seeing as I'm the person that originally posted this response from PMNA (on funcarsonline's GT3 board) I think I should clarify it was in response to e-mail I'd sent asking about _track_ use of PCCB brakes. On the street one would expect them to last much longer. And if you look at the GT3 pages on Porcshe web site you'll see they have the following "disclaimer" about track use: "With its major weight savings and exceptional fade resistance, even at very high temperatures, PCCB is the ideal option for genuine competition use. It is important to note, however, that circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important � as with conventional steel high-performance brakes � to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event." brh986: For an explanation of "floating rotors" see http://stoptech.com/faq/data/faq18.html

Guess thats why theres lemon laws, and some people get lemons, I read this PCCB thread and dont believe that Ceramic Composit is as prone to failure, as made out...Ceramic Composite Clutches for the C-GT 1500 track miles for rotors is a whole lot of abuse for any brake system

I think you proved to yourself that the PCCB brakes are not going to work for you. I think your methodology was fair and you gave the brakes ample time and opportunity to get the job done. They don't get the job done. I have to believe that Porsche tested the PCCB system extensively with street tires. It seems like somewhere along the line, they would have outfitted a Cup car with them and seen how they take real abuse. Maybe this did not happen. That would be totally inexcusable. You should get yourself some '03 Cup car iron discs and never look back. They are about $250 each and should last 25 hours or so even when you beat them mercilessly. There is no way the increase in unsprung weight is going to affect the handling of a 3000 lb street car. That whole unsprung weight thing is totally overdone, anyway. If you look a GT3R what do you see?? A really light body (sprung weight) and huge brakes and huge wheels and tires. So the GT3R has a far worse ratio of sprung to unsprung weight than your GT2 will ever have. The GT3Rs seem to get around the Glen ok. It is BS that you paid an extra $8K for brakes that don't work in the car's intended use. Porsche ought to take care of you for that least. It is kinda funny when you think about. All the technology cars have these days, and the best brake discs are made of the lowest tech metal there is, cast iron.

Ben, You make very good points but... There are still a few reasons I haven't called to change my order yet. Mainly despite all the horror stories the only places I've read them are message boards and I have read at least some that say the PCCB is great (if I remember right watt says they're fine). You always hear from people that have a bad expirience more often than those that have a great expirience IMO (this is not limited to porsches just in general when you think about it). I'm not taking delivery until june '04 and I figure they will either have to fix or discontinue these brakes if it's as bad as reported here. There is just no way Porsche is going to get away with a scam on this scale if it's really that bad. They've got to much to lose just to screw their customers for $8k on faulty brakes. I figure htey will either fix or stop fitting the cars with it. I'm wondering if maybe teh horror story people got a bad batch of rotors or something? I can't believe we haven't seen these stories published in a magazine if truly all the pccb are this bad. Maybe only 25% of them turn out this way? What does everyone think? WHy haven't we read about this in car and driver or something like that - if they are as bad as described here in every case then I don't believe they can pull of a scam like this without getting some extremely bad press.

I'm not trying to defend Porsche but every major racing sanctioning body specifically bans ceramic brake rotors.

This thread/topic harkens back to a previous set of posts on PCCB. It seems that there is much truth to the following comments: PAG was in a "rush" mode to bring PCCB to market in advance of DaimlerChrysler, The manufacturing processes for the rotors are yet to be sorted out (no, they won't shatter - they're CF. The surface is infused w/a ceramic compound), "Early Adaptors" are indeed pioneers. Other observations: Eary advertising for PCCB included comments on fully metallic pads w/no common application to metal (cast) rotors. Where did those pads "go"? Nowhere have I seen advertisment that PCCB's offered superior stopping performance. The "advantages" were to be in "Lifespan" and unsprung weight. (Contrary to what was posted above, unsprung weight is a very "big" issue. While there is no hard and fast correlation, an oft used "rule of thumb" is that a pound decrease in unsprung weight has as much impact as a 100 lb decrease in "sprung" weight, thus a possible advantage to PCCB.) The solution either lie in the rotor itself, or in a combination of the rotor and "common" brake system operation(s). For example, ABS systems generally keep the pad in pretty good contact with the rotor during the pulse cycle..... Interesting, to say the least. Keep us posted, please. J

Would love to hear what happens too... please keep us informed.

Chris hits the points right on the nose as usual... The cup front rotors take incredible abuse and last a remarkably long time-this can depend somewhat on pad use. I have always used Pagid orange with excellent stopping power in warm ambient and cold. The greens are excellent, but we have found them to not last as long actually and rotors must be replaced more frequently. On the GT3 street car, I now have 1100 miles(400 of that being on the track). The stock yellow pads have worn perhaps 15% maximum. The rotors have some very fine micro cracks extending from perhaps 40% of the drilled holes within the rotor. They extend only a few mm and is completely expected following hard track use. The rotors certainly have several more track days in them and many thousands of street miles remaining.

Chris, Sorry, but you've hit one of my "keys". In a street car (not talking true race vehicles here, such as a Cup car), every gram of unsprung weight is an issue. The less the unsprung mass, the lighter (thus less $$) suspension components can sometimes be used is one issue, while the reduction in mass also allows the suspension to be tuned for good compliance with less compromise in comfort (yes, comfor is a big issue, even to co's like Porsche). It's a bit of a paradox, true, but unsprung weight is an issue that impacts more aspects of a true street car vs a track car. Respectfully, J

you should be dealing with your regional PCNA rep., not your dealer. your dealer can tell you who this is, or you can call owner service at , if these are still current: 8005458039/770290/3500. bring him into the issue and see what happens.. it's sounds like the dealer knows you've been tracking and that releases Porsche of substantial responsibility [no way to know how you drove the car] but the rep may still come thru. it's also not clear what your history is with the brand, whether you are are repeat customer which may help. the other issue is it's not clear you bedded the pads properly before you went to the track? as i've said before, Rick perkins my exec. handler at PCNA says he's had one PCCB claim, so be the second!!! do not rely on your dealer as a final answer. also while i have had 12,000 trouble free miles on PCCB in 3 cars, I do not track, altho' i use alot of brakes. we just inspected my current gt2's brakes after 3500 miles of very high speed driving with heavy braking, and at 6000 total miles they are perfect. Fixed wing has has alot of trouble with his, and another nameless friend of mine got free front brakes from his dealer in Europe

btw, oak is running gt2 calipers with iron rotors and loves it, and i'm sure he will share all the setup details if asked

Jeff, In theory you might be right. The realty is Porsche does not recalibrate the suspension settings if you get PCCB, so the advantages you state are not realized unless the owner spends some more money and does their own suspension tuning. The other advantage of less unsprung weight is sharper turn-in and a more responsive feel to the car. I suspect that there are very few drivers with enough track experience (you won't get it on the street) to be able to really feel 40 lbs difference in unsprung weight. Karl

Karl, Of course, you're correct. What happens on pure "street cars" is that the product planners work w/the suspension engineers to peg suspension performance to the range of planned wheels/tires/suspension components. This also points to me that the entire PCCB issue is not fully sorted out. As far as turn in (suspension settings)- you're correct there as well. I've met dozens (hundreds maybe) who insist that they can tell, but I've only met a handful who actually could. I know I can't do it very often or very well. "Responsiveness" is another issue. By reducing the unsprung weight, the forces on compression and rebound are a bit less, thus reducing the oscillations felt in the passenger cabin. Generally, the longer the wheel travel, the more the "impact" of unsprung weight. In other words, you'll notice the change in weight more the rougher the road surface.... J

Mark GT2, To retro-fit steel rotors to your GT2, All you would have to do is use the MKll GT3 cast iron rotors 350mm front and 330mm rear respectively. A new set of GT3 Mkll rear calipers to get the caliper in the correct alignment for the smaller diameter 330mm steel rotors (PCCB is 350mm rear). (You could probably have the GT2 calipers machined.) That's pretty much it, front and rear rotors and new rear calipers. You can even use the P90 pads on the steel rotors, they work great with steel. Similar pad compound to the R19, the green compound is the same as R14. These both work great with the steel set up. They are easy on the rotors, great initial bite, High fade resistance, see R19 and R14 pad compound

Oak: Appreciate the input - but what I've decided to do is replace the whole system with the Brembo racing system Monoblock 8 piston 4 pad front calipers with 380 mm floating hat slotted rotors and 6 piston 2 pad monoblock calipers for the rear and they all have titanium inserts in the caliper pistons for heat dissipation. The rear rotors have full handbrake capability as well. You can specify Perfomance Friction or Ferodo or Mintex racing pads - we're going with Performance Friction. Brembo just came out with this system recently. I had heard about just swapping out the rotors - but I opted for what I believe will be better still.

Mark, That is an awsome set up. From my experience and speaking to others that have done the 8 piston Brembo set up have mentioned a soft pedal, and abit slow on the initial bite. Almost like air in the system, but there is none. Could be abit hair raising on the street, but once on the track it's not really and issue with a heavy foot.

Here is a lead I came across on a Brembo 8 piston setup... not sure if it is the same as what you are looking for. Brembo 8 pistons for sale...

Don't know if that's similar or not. The ones I got (installed today) have 6 pistons in the rear.......too late now anyway - but thanks for the lead.

Mark, let us how the system feels, and how they perform. Can you use the stock 18" wheels?

The stock wheels on the GT2 will fit.......

I can really feel the difference. I have been fortunate enough to have both systems on my car. I can confirm a significant difference in the feel between the two. Street cars are set up softer than ideal for handling on most roads/tracks. This is done for comfort. My experience is that the lower unsprung weight produces a car which feels more like a stiffer sprung car without increasing the unpleasantness of it -- a win/win. Stephen

Interesting post Mark. So much for the claim that it is just a few malcontents causing trouble. You�ve read the earlier threads here and on Rennteam.com? From your thread title I guess you have. I am consistently amazed at the number of people here who take the attitude that �Porsche can do no wrong�. Sounds to me like you are setting up for a legal fight. Is this the case? Ok, just from reading your post, my impression is that: 1) The lack of stopping is due to boiled fluid and not pad fade. These pads don�t fade on ceramic rotors. 2) The sand you talk about is probably due to ABS damage. 3) The fibres sticking up and being ripped off as well as the high wear rate is overheating of your rotors. 4) The high wear rate of your pads is consistent with what I would expect. Can you please post photos of the pads and rotors. This will tell us a lot! Good luck! Stephen

mark, also if you're willing to total $ cost p/l for the new brake package?

It's going to be $13K plus labor.....

First, Mark - let us know @ those brakes. I've heard very positive things. Second, FixedWing - it's tough without closer examination, but there's an issue here: is the grit (sand) coming from pad wear or is it coming from the ceramic compound failing? I'd sure like to take a close look, and I'd be very surprised if no one @ PAG were also very interested. J

Why couldn't you just use front GT3 MKII cast iron rotors on the front and the rear and nto change calipers?

JeffES: The "sand" is coming from the ceramic rotor itself. It was starting to disintigrate. brh986: I could have - but I believe that the brake system I selected will be better overall. We'll see.

Mark: Are you going to Pocono? I would like to catch a ride in your GT2. I will not be running but plan to go up on Sunday to catch a few rides. Kam

What a great review on PCCB! I'm a reluctant returning customer to Porsche after having not owned a Porsche for 10 years or so. My son and I recently placed orders for 2 GT3s with a March delivery date. I originally placed the order for mine with PCCB, then changed to no PCCB. Now after reading your post, I'm convinced I made the right decision. Thank-you for the comprehensive and thoughtful post. Porsche sales people I have encountered either have very little product knowledge, or don't want the truth to interfere with their commission. Asked about PCCB, all I got from the dealer was the factory literature. Surely with all the customer experiences recited on the Internet, they must know what is going on! Unfortunately, this type of response from one's dealer does not inspire trust or confidence. Thanks to Rennlist for being a great resource!

I'm glad to hear that works. If my PCCB doesn't work out that will be my backup plan. I hope the iron out the bugs in the next year.... hope you get some money back too!

Kam, I'll be at Pocono with both cars September 26th (Friday), 27th, and 28th. Be glad to let you catch a ride - or you can drive - either way I'll be there the entire time.

Mark: See you on Sunday that weekend. Can't wait to see Ken's GT3 too!! Kam

Is that Ken that used to have a boxster S that has a GT3 now?

Yes, that's the Ken that used to have a Boxter S. I wonder if Chip will bring his GT3?????

I need to correct something I said in one of my posts. The �sand� can also be caused by serious overheating of the rotors. They will, apparently, literally turn to sand if you are able to heat them sufficiently. I would just love to see photos of these rotors! I am beginning to wonder whether the inside of my rotors that I previously thought was due to ABS damage could actually have been caused by overheating of that surface. Stephen

I just received my response from Porsche Cars NA. This is what they said. "Porsche Cars respectfully declines to participate in the replacement of brake rotors under warranty. Please understand that this decision is based on the visual inspection of the brake rotors performed by Mr. Stevens who indicated the rotors are pitted as A RESULT OF OVERHEATING." OVERHEATING????? I thought these things were almost impervious to heat? ********************************************************** According to Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature: "Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power." ********************************************************** Oh what a tangled web we weave......... I'll post more as I continue this pursuit.

Quite frankly, I'm not surprised at all that PCNA wants to dodge this bullet. Lots of hype in their advertising that draws on Porsche's engineering expertise of yesteryear, when the track was their proving ground. Now days, they throw on high ticket optons, cram the cars and trucks down the dealers' throats logging that transfer as "sales", and concentrate on profit...once they have your check, your on your own. Even though I'm on my fifth P-car, and I do enjoy it, I think the company will see a serious decline over the next three years because the values on their cars drop way too fast, their dealer network is tired of carrying the load, and they have forgotten customer service. Keep after them!

Wndered if you parked your car with the problematic brakes somewhere very close to your dealer, almost in full view of oncoming traffic and "potential customers", or take it to a high profile DE/Racing event, and have a huge sign that declares " ASK ME ABOUT MY WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE WITH CERAMIC BRAKES!!!" maybe that will make PCNA do something for you. I don't know of any other effective and inexpensive way to get some attention. Maybe ask a lawyer first, but I think that the fact that you have a paper trail to all the appropriate people; A. Singer, Regional Rep, salesperson, etc...., and still cannot get anywhere, you can legitimately tell Porsche: Beware. I really hope your problem and others who suffer the same headaches can get this resolved amicably, and at no cost to you. Wonder what Bruce Anderson has to say about this?

Since we are talking about massive braking power, I was curious about the brakes the space shuttle used. Turns out, they use a carbon-beryllium compound, probably costs more than the Hope diamond. http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/...#sts-gear-main

carbon-beryllium compound! Damn, I feel sorry for the guys working on them brakes! Known carcinogin!

Didn't Porsche use beryllium rotors on some of their race cars in the mid-late 60s?

Hey steve did you order the PCCB on your gt3?

Congratulations Mark, you have now arrived at exactly the point I am at. The only way forward is probably litigation. In my opinion, simply by comparing the original promises made for the GT2 to the statements made for the GT3 (which clearly state that the brakes do not meet those original promises) it should be possible to prove your case. Yes, do keep us informed. Best of luck! Stephen

Man am I glad I didnt go for the ceramic's on my GT3.. I would be very upset as well right now..

Well, I finally got to test out my new brakes. They are fantastic, stopping power is great, didn't see any fade in the 3 days on the track, pads are holding up very well. My confidence level has just skyrocketed since I now know that I can stop.......consistently. If I can figure out how to put pictures up here I'll put them up with the PCCB damaged ones and the new Brembos that are now on the car. I'm still awaiting the results of my Better Business Bureau complaint submission.

brh986: Sorry, missed this question when you first posted it. My current order has the PCCB option but that's going to change soon. My original plan was to get the PCCB brakes and then swap out to cast iron rotors (or at least change the ceramic rings to iron since the PCCB brakes use a floating rotor design) but I've decided that is too much trouble to regularly go through. As for the weight savings, I believe the new brakes that Mark GT2 refers to in this thread are almost as light as the PCCB system for not much more on the initial price. And they're almost certainly less to maintain.

Mark GT2, Sorry about your extreme bad luck. My dad and I have put over 4000 miles on his '03 GT2 with PCCB both on and off the track, and have had no problems. I remember, the first time we took it to the track, one of the instructors (who raced GT3Rs) informed us of the correct bedding procedure. Since then, no fade under heavy braking, very little dust, still on the first set of pads. I hope Porsche comes through for you. It seems that if they want to continue to earn the trust of their customer base, they should stand behind some of their amazing claims. Wish you the best, Jared

Jared: We bedded the pads properly - there was no issue there. On most turns at the track I was OK (not great, as in my turbo) but on high speed hard brake situations, like I had on the back straight at Watkins Glen, (about 160 mph down to 100 or so) the brakes do not work properly....not even close with the yellow stock pads. With the green race pads it worked almost as well as my turbo - but the rotors and pads got trashed very quickly - as in one weekend.

I saw a Porsche GT2 that is converted into a track car. The rotors are destroyed so much that they're being replaced by Brembos. Bill Dougherty of Dougherty Automotive in West Chester, Pa told me that the ceramics on the Porsche are sub par. Even the calipers are, and they are very heavy. Turobs can outbrake the GT2 on the track, by a lot, I was told. Very interesting

Jon, The car that you saw was probably Mark's. Mark, I am correct in that Dougherty does the work on your car? How was the Pocono event? I am disappointed to have missed it, although I needed a break from some of the politics I endured after the August WGI event. I am currently studying abroad, and will miss the make-a-wish event as well, best of luck! Mitch

Mitch: What happened at the Glen? I was there but did not hear any thing regarding you. Are you Jim's son? Kam

Hey Kam, Yes, Jim is my Dad and the reason I am lucky enough to do any of the Porsche stuff. If I can sell our car, maybe in a car as fast as yours next year! Nothing really bad happened at the Glen, I just long to be able to race and was getting a bit sick of the white group trains from August. No big deal, I can't wait to get back out there. How was the Pocono event?

I ran out of tires so I did not registred for the Pocono event. However, I was up there on Sunday to help out in instructing and got to run 2 sessions using Myles' Toyo tires. I had two fun sessions. I was in my old car with John (new owner) driving. He passed my new car driven by Tony B. with his son as passenger. I don't like to see my car pass by an SC... But what can you do, John is a good driver and Tony is not using my car to its full potential. Your current car is a great car to race in the F class. The F class has lots of great racers.

Kam, I agree. I hope to be able to race the car in F, I just have to convice Dad! Take Care, Mitch

This is the first time I've seen Porsche acknowledge that there's a problem. I suspect we'll see more downplaying of PCCB over time. Listed under "Safety and Aerodynamics" on the Porsche web site is the following note which is a recent addition. ************************************************************ The PCCB offers extremely high and consistent levels of friction. Other benefits of the system include a long service life and extremely low abrasion. However, the rate of component wear is directly dependent on individual driving style and the conditions in which the system is used. High braking loads on the track or in difficult driving conditions can lead to a noticeable deterioration of the discs.* *It is always highly advisable to have the braking system on your vehicle checked and the necessary components replaced by a professional. ************************************************************

Just went to arbitration and the outcome was to deny resolution. Porsche flew in two representatives for this meeting - obviously there is concern about the outcome of this case. One person was flown in from Rochester and the other was flown in from Atlanta. The reasons for the denial of my case are: �The Manuracturer presented documentary evidence indicating the the Porsche includes a warranty with the vehicle in question which excludes from warranty coverage any�.competition, racing or track use� While Porsche, according to the warranty booklet, will repair or replace with a new or remanufactured part distributed by Porsche Cars NA�that is defective in material or workmanship under normal use�Normal use is defined in the Porsche warranty Manual as follws: To be driven on reasonable road surfaces within legal speed limits� For the above stated reasons, the Arbitrators agreed that this Consumer is not entitled to relief� The games continue.........I will keep all advised that are interested.

Just went to arbitration and the outcome was to deny resolution. Porsche flew in two representatives for this meeting - obviously there is concern about the outcome of this case. One person was flown in from Rochester and the other was flown in from Atlanta. The reasons for the denial of my case are: �The Manuracturer presented documentary evidence indicating the the Porsche includes a warranty with the vehicle in question which excludes from warranty coverage any�.competition, racing or track use� While Porsche, according to the warranty booklet, will repair or replace with a new or remanufactured part distributed by Porsche Cars NA�that is defective in material or workmanship under normal use�Normal use is defined in the Porsche warranty Manual as follws: To be driven on reasonable road surfaces within legal speed limits� For the above stated reasons, the Arbitrators agreed that this Consumer is not entitled to relief� The games continue.........I will keep all advised that are interested.

Just went to arbitration and the outcome was to deny resolution. Porsche flew in two representatives for this meeting - obviously there is concern about the outcome of this case. One person was flown in from Rochester and the other was flown in from Atlanta. The reasons for the denial of my case are: �The Manuracturer presented documentary evidence indicating the the Porsche includes a warranty with the vehicle in question which excludes from warranty coverage any�.competition, racing or track use� While Porsche, according to the warranty booklet, will repair or replace with a new or remanufactured part distributed by Porsche Cars NA�that is defective in material or workmanship under normal use�Normal use is defined in the Porsche warranty Manual as follws: To be driven on reasonable road surfaces within legal speed limits� For the above stated reasons, the Arbitrators agreed that this Consumer is not entitled to relief� The games continue.........I will keep all advised that are interested.

Bad luck. They really don't want to set a precedent. It is however completely surreal that they're claiming the GT2 is not intended to be used above road legal speeds on on the track Simon