My 1st HUGE issue with my dealer...

Man...I was blasted by the Service Manager and one of his writers over the past week. Seems my score on a survey, put them in a bad spot, even to the point bonuses were'nt paid. Ouch..!! Interestingly enough the surveyer asked only about my "last" visit with the dealer which was ummm...not good. She didn't seem to care about the previous 10 visits which were stellar good service. The survey dosen't care that the probelms the dealer caused, which is why they got a bad score, were fixed quickly or not, it just recorded my score addressing the dealer did cause a problem...not very fair to the dealer. The issue is that I have, is that these guys expected me to lie about the experience, opposed to telling the truth...I have a big problem with that. Surveys are to get metrics which are then used to better a process. It's too bad they are tied back to money for these guys...that's a real bummer. Funny thing though, they blame me exclusively for the bad scoring, which seems odd. If 1 person can bring down the house, either no one else bothered to take it, or all the scores were bad and mine was the icing on the cake. At any rate, I've scheduled time with the GM to express my complete surprise and disbelife that service professionals can act in that fashion. This all came about as I called to have a service done, which they usually get me in right away. They stated no appointments till December 15th..??!!??!! Of course I asked why...?? Then came the fireworks. I hate to hang these guys out to dry, but talking to a good customer with a threating tone and litleraly yelling must be communicated to the GM...hopefully the GM will care. I still love my car though... Phattey..

When I bought my car in Boston at a BMW dealership my dealer pulled me to the side like a drug deal was about to take place and told me that if I don't answer 'excellent' to every question i was asked when they called me he would get into deep trouble. The options where poor, fair, good, & excellent. Even if you say 'good' that is considered a fail. These surveys should be a bit more granualar and not limited to a mulitple choice if they want them to be more effective.

If this is the local Jax dealer, I can relate. The shop supposedly has a good reputation, but I have never had a good experience with them. My father on the other hand... he swears by them. The funny thing is that I always complain about my local dealership down here (mostly on price), but they have always managed to fix everything that the Jax dealer was supposed to fix.

I think it's kind of weird that they find out who did the rating. I save my excellent ratings for only truely "excellent" service - good is still good. (Does that make sense?)

Absolutely. The survey system and the incentive structure behind them has become a joke.

I've had this too with BMW and now with a turbo I really am not looking forward to the experience with the same dealer. The service I received was poor, professionalism poor, and they didn't fix the problems as described. When I got the phone call I was honest. When I returned to have the car back they didn't bother even calling about my experience. They were also rude. I think this feedback stuff is all grossly inflated and geared at pointing fingers and punitive. All the focus is on the problem rather than the solution. As a customer, I am stuck with feeling like I have to cow down to these guys or get crappy service. My alternative is to take the car 45 minutes away to get serviced. I think the fact that many of us who've laid down $100k should get better service especially for the premium we pay. my 2cents. geoff

I suppose these surveys mean alot to these guys, I know of a mercedez dealer in my area that PAYS for a "excellent" survey. The service manager offered a $100 gift certificate for their parts shop for me to bring the survey to them and let them fill it out and send it in. Peter

There was an article in Automotive News about a year and a half ago that detailed the importance of these surveys. The example manufacturer that they used was BMW. In the past the manufacturers used a typical sales tool which was the year end growth incentive. If the dealer sold more cars than the previous year they would get x percent back from their yearly purchases. In the past 2 years the customer satisfaction trend has taken hold and is now the number 1 priority to the manufactueres so they have cut the growth incentive for selling more cars significantly, I think the figure I read was something like a 75% cut, and are now basing year end incentive payments on these surveys. Now here is the kicker, the service department and the new car sales department are both seperate in these surveys, and both have seperate payments, I don't remember the service side numbers at all. As for the new car sales surveys the numbers are rediculous. If all exellents are received then the dealer gets somethnig like 12-15% of their yearly purchases back (please note these numbers are from memory so they might vary, I was just so shocked when I saw them that I remembered the approximate range). But if there is one rating that comes back as not excellent then their year end bonus gets cut down to 5-8% of yearly purchases. And if there are more than that there is a scale for decreasing monnies. The number of non-exellent feedbacks might be more than 1 but it is a very very very small number considering. Either way if you look at it from a dealer standpoint 12-15% of your yearly spendig with that manufacturer is not a small number. So that is why these dealers are so forceful when it comes to these surveys. I remember when I bought my Audi back in 1998, I was also pulled aside and told the utmost importance of these surveys and how ONLY and excellent would be accepible and if my experience was not excellent then to tell them so they can make it that way. So there you have it, from Automotive News that is why if you don't answer excellent on the surveys you will get treated horribly I wish I would have kept that article, it was really interesting. A4EP 2002 C4S, SG/BLK

I have not had any survey experiences with Porsche, but when I bought my wife's Honda Odyssey we were offered a gas fill-up and free oil change in exchange for the unfilled survey.

All I can say is wow. I've learned a lot here........ I had no idea.

agree T-rag this place is amazing i feel i get so much info here, a much more informed customer

When I bought my E55, I went to pick up the car after it had been detailed, at noon, since they said it would be done then (when they originally said it would be ready the day before). I got there and it wasn't ready yet--they need another hour. I'm not happy, but I go to lunch. Come back nearly 2 hours later, and when I inspect the car, there's tar, glue spots, etc.--a lot on the front bumper, and a bunch in several other places. So they take it back to the shop and the sales guy pulls me aside and says that this shouldn't count against him on the survey, blah, blah, blah. After hearing the word survey a half dozen times, I tell him to stop talking about the survey and make sure the car is detailed right. A half hour later it's back, and there's still stuff in areas I pointed out. At this point, I'm getting noticeably annoyed, and the sales guy pulls me aside again and goes into his survey pitch. I told him that if he mentioned the survey one more time I was going to give him all unsatisfactory ratings.

They must listen to you. On my survey, scoring was 1-10, 5 being average and 10 being excellent. I gave them all 10's except for twp items, where I gave nines. Well deserved scores in my opinion. Cheating in the form of "buying" excellent scores is abominable.

Poursha...nicely put...and I like the way you handled the situation. That was with the sales guy..right? Or was it service..

Palting - If the survey had've been my previous visit...they guys would've scored 10's all the way around....but the survey "just happended" to fall on a visit where everything went wrong. Mine was also 1- 10 scoring, where I never went below a 5 on any of it...plus a couple of 10's. Thus, I'm confused where they found the average of a 66, which made the shop puke..

My experience with 3 years with a BMW 740 was that the service attitude was only marginally better than you get at GM, in other words weak. Upon answering the service survey with poor ratings nothing is done to correct the issues which caused the problems. So whats the point of the survey really? Its maybe supposed to raise the level of service the next guy gets? Its just a shame that service people never seem to work with the passion for excellence that the engineers and product planners have. In my perfect world service and engineering would have much closer ties rather than have the service dept. a divison of sales. I expect Porsche to better if only because of the lower volumes the dealer sees. Bye-the-way, I discovered today why winter tires go on this time of year, thank-you PSM! saved my novice butt.

One quick story, I had a argument with the service manager about the work unnecessary done to my Porsche. I got the bill, but they never attached the satisfaction survey. I later spoke with the GM and got my issues resolved, but again never got the survey. It is unfortunately we are a measurements society and much is subjective, imo. That is why I never pay much attention to surveys, and not believer of ones like in some publications.

all of the dealerships ask you politely only to give best ratings. Had this with BMW, Lexus and Porsche.

I took my car in for the 15k service and have the damn key reset so that the seat would not move to the 'Midget' setting the previous owner had it on (I've read the manual, and the posts on the board, none of it works). They didn't set the key fob. So a day or two later when someone called about a survey I was honest, everything was great, but they didn't do everything I asked. I pretty much gave them 9-10's all around but when it came to was service satisfactory, I gave them a 7 or so... Never heard a word from the dealer, and if I had I'd have called and ripped the GM a new one, and then in the future, tell them where they could shove their survey. Good to know that the dealer hears about the survey, bad that they know who filled it out...

Just 'took' a survey recently about my last visit. Conducted by J.D. Powers for Porsche. They used a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best. These surveys are pointless as far as I'm concerned for a few reasons. 1. Lack of anonymity. From reading threads like this, I know the service department might hold it against you if you don't rate excellent across the board, so I'm only going to rate them less than excellent if they were really and truly horrible. 2. 10s are apprently the only acceptable answer to Porsche. Scoring good (like 8 or 9 out of 10) should not be considered bad. 3. Sometimes an 11 is needed. Since 10s are expected, there's no way to indicate when your dealer went above and beyond your expectations. There were a couple items where I thought this was the case, but as I was handing out 10s across the board, nobody will ever know. Truth be told, my visit deserved straight 10s, except for 2 issues, which I would have given them a 9 on. The first issue was parts availability. The part wasn't in stock and they had it shipped which took a few days. Didn't bother me in the least, as that doesn't seem unreasonable, but common sense says a '10' should have been reserved for those occasions when the part is in stock. The second issue was the loaner car. It was a rental, which I'm okay with, but only full size cars were available whereas I'd rather have had a mid-size or compact. That particular topic wasn't part of the survey though. If Porsche really cares about its customers and their opinions they need to anonymize the process and not hold good scores like 9s against the dealers. The current system isn't fair to either of us.

i'm giving em whatever they deserve. if they treat me right, they'll see it. if they don't, i'm more than happy to tell the truth about it. if we pussyfoot around and lie about the crap service we receive on these premium vehicles, we have no one else to blame but ourselves when things don't change. just leave your personal information off the card and tell the truth. i had the most horrendous new p-car experience once (absolutely FULL of lies the whole way through it), and i told the surveyor all about it including dates, specifics, etc. service dept told me all about it. turns out they (service) get screwed even if the sales guys get a crap rating. too bad. fix the system if they don't like it. how the heck are you supposed to motivate people with these things if you are going to punish those not responsible for the activity (the service dept in this instance)? what a crock this whole thing is. i'll only send anonymous surveys back in and they WILL always be 100% reflective of the experience - good or bad.

I once had a BMW 850 dropped off the lift during service causing $18,000 in damage. After that rift was repaired ( by a full repurchase of my 850i and $20,000 off a new 850 CSI) the shop was nasty at my next visit. I asked my attorney to write a letter to BMW NA. The service manager lost his job within a month. Needless to say, I agree with Palting- don't give the scores unless they're earned. Also, you might hold the reply until you're sure all your issues are satisfied. By the way, my Porsche service dept. , Lynch, has earned 10's. AS

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed so far. We have all spent a great deal of money on our cars and we should receive good service. These surveys you all speak of are quite a challenge. As it was stated, they really don't reflect an experience, nor are they regarded by most dealers as a tool for improvement. These failures are a result of the bizarre system of scoring and the enormous consequences of failure. The results of these surveys are tabulated and scores are based on the percent of responses that are perfect, IE. excellent or completely satisfied. Any other response; 9 out of 10, good, or satisfied, is scored as a zero. So if the dealer receives 10 returned surveys in a month and 7 are perfect and 3 have any other mark, the dealer receives a 70% customer satisfaction rating. This score is bad. This is why the dealership employees are forced to explain the scoring to their customers. Imagine in school if we used a system where if you did not get an "A", you failed. I , like most of you, don't usually regard anything as excellent unless it is extraordinary. But does a good job deserve a zero? Furthermore, the manufacturers tie all kinds of programs, incentives and even the awarding of future franchises to these scores, among other criteria. At my dealership about $200k a year +. This places a huge amount of pressure on the employees to achieve good scores and hence the backlash when they are informed about the customers who have criticized them. This whole system is harmful on many levels. The surveys should be weighted differently and the scores not so crucial. Then maybe the dealership staff would spend more time trying to figure out how to genuinely improve rather than how to get people to give a good score. A customer should never be punished for his honesty. I do try to prevent this at my store. Hopefully this information shines further light on the topic.

Surveys if they are used right they are a very usefull tool. I'm an executive in the Hospitality Industry and we use the surveys very much to gauge the reaction to our product and the guest experience. The problem is that in order to be usefull the management has to be in the right frame of mind to use the surveys as a way to improve performance learning from mistakes, not necessarily punishing behaviors. To the point of keeping anonymous the survey it would be pointless because then you do not know the case and why the bad scores were given. As i said used constructively you can also see cases where the customer had unreasonable demands or was expecting to get 'service' shouting his/her way through the staff and other ugly stories that are every day occurences in this day and age. Again management and how these surveys are handled its the key. If one of my managers or employees had a vindictive behavior i would certainly like to know about it immediately and in person. The same would be if someone is soliciting good comments, I would like to know immediately... Training is key as well as company's culture to treat these cases productively and in a constructive way. If the only way of managing bad comments is holding the yard stick and cutting peoples salaries then it leads to solicitors and vindictive behaviours... Of course if you have these kind of employees and you treat them right in the first place its completely unacceptable but in my organization I have almost never encountered vindictive behaviours... In any event senior management needs to know, they also need to know the good stuff as well. In the 'service' industry we tend to only hear the bad and the ugly, however it is very powerfull to hear the good stories as well. Finally putting a good comment for someone does not cost anything, if nothing else you reward the positive behaviour and that person is more likely to treat you even better the next time you visit. You would be surprised how many people are rude to the employees from the get go...A professional will treat this customer as per policy, nothing more nothing less. The notion that screaming your way to get stuff done i can tell you its long gone... Rewarding the good behavior will take you a long way...

you guys are talking about filling out surveys, but all of my surveys have been by phone. somebody calls me up a week or two after my service and asks me a bunch of questions. does anybody else here get their surveys that way? i used to own a vw passat and vw gave the surveys the same way.

I agree with DJ that having a name attached to a survey helps to remember that particular situation and therefore facilitate improvement. If the survey is anonymous how would you use it to actually do something? That said, I certainly sympathize with everyone who feels a little "pressure" when taking these surveys. Although I am as honest as possible, I feel the same way.

In 2000, my wife and I bought a new Jetta. During the whole buying process, they all kept reminding us of the survey, post sale. Drove the car home and noted a squeak in the cosole area that was supposed to be fixed prior to taking delivery, but was still there. Not sure if they even attempted to fix it? Anyhow had a handshake deal (I know, get it on the due bill) about getting a smokin' deal on tinting the windows. Survey called a week later (before tinting) and I gave them all 10's (since the service was great) except on the question about if the car was 100%. That is where I explained the small issue. A few days later I called the dealer to schedule the tinting appt. and was told, "no deal", since I scored them down on that one area. Of coarse the conversation became heated, to say the least. Another funny thing is a year or so later, we lemon lawed the car, got ALL of our money refunded and to this day, we still get long term customer satisfaction surveys.....HMMMM I think their right hand needs to talk to their left hand.....

that's funny, i still get satisfaction calls and mail from vw about my passat all the time and i sold it two and a half years ago!

My first service experience went really well, except the car was a little late (I was waiting). The folks doing the car wash were shortstaffed, and the service manager actually went back and helped work on the car to hurry things up. I got the call, and answered all nines and tens except for one. Had I known about the way these surveys are used in awarding bonuses, I would have been happy to mark up the scores. I'd really regret causing them [Porsche of Nashua (NH)] any problems because of a very harsh grading curve.

I like one local Acura dealer's approach. In the service area, there is a huge sign by the advisor's desk: IF ANYTHING WE ARE DOING TODAY WOULD NOT RATE "EXCELLENT" PLEASE LET US KNOW IMMEDIATELY" They get 2 messages across: (1) the survey is important to them and (2) they want to earn the mark. Seems a lot more effective to me than the bullying tactics described in this thread.

I used to a BMW 3 series before. Since new, it always had a problem with the rear speakers. Took it 2 times to Patrick BMW in Schaumburg, IL (one of the sh*tiest stealerships) and it still wasn't fixed. So when I got the call, I let the surveyors know exactly how I felt. A week later I get a call from the head service manager practically scolding me for giving that score (its 3 years ago so I don't remember the exact score). I was so taken back that there was no anonymity that I remember trying to justify my score to him. To this date, i regret doing that. Anyway, then I took the car back in when he said the BMW rep will in the dealership. I go there and some fat man who I assumed is the BMW rep introduces himself and proceeds to go out with a test drive with me. His hostile demeanor througout the drive makes me wonder whether he truly is the BMW rep so I ask and he proceeds to tell me that he is the head of something (maybe service) here. No BMW rep was scheduled to come that day. After that, he said they would try to fix it one more time but if it doesn't fix, then that's it. They are done and wouldn't look at it again as they are a dealership and it is there prerogative to turn away customers who they think are being unreasonable (forget the fact that in my brand new BMW the speakers continue to distort). They managed to make it better but I just never brought up that issue to them again. They are only 10 minutes from my place so it was much easier to get oil change, etc.. done there which they usually did good. Funny thing is after the episode with the speakers, I NEVER got a single survey from them even though I went back several times on different issues. I "learned" to be "nice" to the advisors and "build a relationship" with these weasels so my car would get the care it needed unless I wanted to drive an hour each way to get it done at the dealer that I bought it from. P-car is the same way. I rank them excellent and have never given them loower than a 8 on any survey. The dealership I bought my car from new is too far so I use Barrington Motorwerks which has been a satisfactory relationship (could be better in terms of fixing creaks and groans which just come back no matter what). This whole system sucks. The system should be anonymous at the dealership level but with enough metrics built in that the problem area can be pinpointed without fingerpointing towards the customer.

All unsatisfactory scores could be eliminated by the dealer giving his own "survey" first, resolving any unsatisfactory items, then officially releasing the car and sending the real survey. I bet such a dealership would get only 10's. Alas, such dream dealerships don't exist.

I brought this subject up to my daughter who used to be finance mgr in a couple of Toyota dealerships. She laughed and told me the dealer would give buyer gift certificates to restaurants and other "vigs" to have the buyer bring in a blank signed survey. (which is a customer sellout) Besides the manufacturer kickback in dollars, good performing dealerships would get bigger allotments of new models (which is a plum) While there appears to be abuses, how else would you get dealers to give good service?

Torags Some dealers provide good service just for the satisfaction and pride of doing a good job, just like some people in the rest of society. Did your daughter provide good service to her customers just out of fear? I love people who slam car dealers, even after saying their daughter was one.

I agree and I use an excellent servicing dealer, Carlson, Palo Alto CA. Do you condone the practice of buying blank surveys? BTW, she doesn't do that anymore. Apparently, she got tired of burying people just to be #1 in the dealerships (she's competitive).

No, I do not believe in paying for positive surveys. I just think people expect a lot from dealers but don't give the appropriate level of respect.

I agree with what Bruce said, "people expect a lot from dealers but don't give the appropriate level of respect." Unfortunatly in this world praise is rarely given but critisim is commonplace. Being in sales I know that all to well, people forget about all of the positive things you do and only nitpick on the small mistakes that are made even if they are taken car of right away. I think we all know the difficulties of operating a service based business, not everyone is a nice person to deal with...especially in the high end car market...and a lot of people simply belive that if they spend 100k on a car they deserve to be treated like kings and if they are treated like kings it still isn't good enough. Yes, it is appropriate to get better service if you are at a high class dealership but can everyone be happy all of the time...no. I believe many customers have such high expectations that it is impossible to fulfill. For instance, how many parts go into a 996? It is logical for every dealership in the country to stock multiple units of every single part that goes into the car. No, but some people get pissed if the dealer does not have the part in stock. Does it matter if the part is overnighted from Germany? No, because it wasn't there and the car could not be done in one day. I have talked to many people who are like that, they don't give the dealer any slack. But on the customer side there are many things that are simply not right either. My friend brought his BMW in for service, the service team ended up backing his car into a pole. Yes mistakes happen, yes they did go out of their way to get it fixed in a timely fashion but they still pulled him to the side and said they are taking care of it on their dime and need all top marks on the survey since they are handleing it so quick. Now that is just simply inappropriate, they damaged the body work of his car and expect him to give all top marks because they are fixing their mistake...rediculous. I agree with what most people have said, there needs to be some flexibilty in the surveys so that you can rank a dealership correctly. If they go above and beyond for you then you should be able to rank them that way, if it is just a good job, then rank that way, if it's horrible then rank it and not be abused next time you give them business. The way this system is set up is insane, but it won't change, the only thing that can change is the dealerships taking the constructive critisism and fixing the problems, not yelling at the customer for expressing their satisfation level. The dealer needs to understand that not everyone will give them praise, just as not everyone will pummel them in the survey. The majority of people will tell the truth, and that is what is needed for improving service levels. If a dealer cannot take constructive critisim and work to improve their levels of service then they don't deserve to get their bonus at the end of the year if the bonus goes for excellent service. Dealers need to stop blaming customers for bad feedback, there is a reason the feedback is bad, the dealer didn't do their job as they said they would. My overall opinion is that if a dealer wants to improve their service then the number one thing to improve is telling the truth and communication. I can't count how many times the dealer says one thing and does another, promises the car will be done then it isn't but they never give you the truth, just keep leading you on. Never promise somehting you can't do...yet dealers do all the time. Or how the dealer says they will call you and they never do, or you call to get and update and they don't return you calls. Customer service is all about honesty and communication, and 90% of dealers have no clue how to return calls or tell the truth about the length of time the car will be there. Fix that and those survey scores will be a lot higher even when you mess up. A4EP 2002 C4S, SG/BLK

I wonder if you could take this whole quality survey industry up with your state's attorney general as a case of organized extortion from the top down. Think about it ... survey firm is paid ( by manufacturer ? dealer ? ) to develop and administer a survey instrument that instead of acheiving the goal of continuous quality improvement in the measured system , is instead punitively individualized and identified to specific employee , consumer and event. Results in that not so subtle " whisper " that if the customer doesn't help the employee keep his job/meet a bonus , he may get screwed in return in unknown future way . Survey company principals get rich, manufacturer and dealer get good survey results and future falsely glowing ad copy, bad employees get bonuses still and the guy who wrote the $100,00K check gets it bent over without any lube

A4EP, Very well said. MKW, Great solution. Just what we need, another law suit.

"Great solution. Just what we need, another law suit." have a better one?

I'm only expressing what I have experienced in all my purchasing/ service experiences in the past decade with several high end brands at many dealerships. I am NOT advocating lawsuits, just pointing out something in this whole auto ownership experience that has bugged me since I ( and I'm sure you all ) started getting all those surveys and follow up calls from them all and realizing what is really going on . Just suggesting that the consumer's frank input should only be known to surveyor and manufacturer but NOT the dealer/employee. But let's be real- the dealerships will not stand for that for the reasons I already stated above.I will never answer these surveys for this reason. When I have had a problem, I have spoken directly to the people involved and their supervisors.

While I don't like some settlements in many lawsuits and the hugh fees trail attys get (I am not one): It's hard not to believe; The settlements act as deterants, and therefore improve the "breed". If the "breed" isn't improved, at least they (companies) disclose the potential problems. In the retail sector, Nordstroms and Lexis has revolutionized customer service. In the beginning of Lexis, there were people who would not pay a premium (for the same benefits of others) simply because it was a Toyota. The customer service helped to turn buyers attention away from that issue. The Lexis customer service "legend" now allows buyers anywhere in the country, to expect & to get the same high quality of service. Wouldn't it be nice if we could expect that nationwide from PCNA. I ask contributers on this board who are associated with the dealers: Do you have a customer service educational program for new hires & one for old (with competence testing)? Do you have an onsite orientation tape of new models or car features? (with competence testing). Many times dealer new hires (sales/service reps) have neither customer service skills nor mechanical skills - and many don't give a sh*t and just look for the next commission or "vig". The new marketplace demands more.......

We definitly don't need another lawsuit to fix a problem. I am so damn sick of people suing for everything. Oh, I spilled coffee on myself, and it was hot, now I want 50million. I got yelled at by my teacher in school, it made me feel bad, I want 1 million dollars for pain and suffering. I mean seriously this country is sue crazy and it does nothing. Do you really think frivilous lawsuits will encourage corporations to change...NO. MKW, The flaw in your argument is that the automobile manufactuer is not part of the screw job that we are seeing. What is the number 1 thing that maufactuerers try to get from customers...brand loyalty! Now, if we can sell someone one car, great but we really make money if they come back to our brand for their next 5 cars. Building the customer base is the future of any auto manufacturer. Now, in your senerio the manufacturer is in on this point scam. Well I don't see how they could be. First of all when you get shoddy service on your expensive car you begin to get a bad feeling for that brand. Most people don't see the difference between dealers, only brands. So for a manufacturer to build their base they need to provide good service. The service trend was begun by the Japanese marks such as Lexus and the other luxo brands have lost considerable sales because of the Lexus level of service. Now, what would they gain by encouraging dealers to bribe customers? Nothing! Their service would not go up, they would get irritated customers and in the end they would be paying gigantic sums of money to the dealers for increasing their service standards when it is not really done, which is the entire purpose of the program. The manufacturers need to fix this problem. They have got to know what is going on with the buying of the surveys, and the harrassment if you give bad marks. And that might be why only Excellents are good enough because since they need real feedback, and they know dealers are buying surveys under the table then they also know they will never get a real unbiased response on the service, and that may be why anything under all 10's is chastised. So more than likely the dealers, by buying surveys have screwed themselves because now they are punnished by every negative one. The only solution is for the Manufacturer to ease their program for the dealer and then guarntee that the dealer stops trying to influence the surveys. But will that ever happen, no, because the dealer will always do the dishonest thing of influencing as long as they don't get caught. In summary, the entire system is just screwed up Anyone want to set up a consulting firm to analyize the problems and come up with a valid solution for the auto industry...we might be able to cash in A4EP 2002 C4S, SG/BLK

I think you need a police organization, with the punishment being 2 years working as a service rep at a Hyundie dealership.

A4EP , If you read my two posts, we agree mostly . The problem is MOSTLY at the dealership level , but there is a bit of " looking the other way " on the manufacturers part , too. Reason is, they know that it may be years or never that certain dealers in certain cities will get their act together but in the nearsighted short term , for the manuf execs moving up the corporate ladder , dealers buying good ratings mean more advancements for themselves -even helps them get a job with a competitor next year - nevermind what it might do to their ex-employers brand equity. Once you are in this Biz, it's all a bunch of metal to move out the door for most of them. When they daydream, it's not about cars i can assure you.

Why don't you start paying sticker for your cars and not invoice. Then the dealer could afford to hire better quality people and pay them to give you the *** kissing you so rightly deserve.

Now that's the attitude of someone in the failure mode. If you think customer service is *** kissing, get into construction - there you can keep your suedo pride in tact. That's from someone who ate more than their peck of dirt to make sales - and is not sorry about it.

Believe me, I do not think good customer service is *** kissing. I appreciate it when it is provided to me and I take pride in offering it to others. I just get sick of hearing people whine about the horrible, thieving dealer, how cheap can they get the car, and then be shocked when they don't get the service they expect. I spend part of every day helping people obtain their dream and also helping to solve their problems.

"Believe me, I do not think good customer service is *** kissing. I appreciate it when it is provided to me and I take pride in offering it to others. I just get sick of hearing people whine about the horrible, thieving dealer, how cheap can they get the car, and then be shocked when they don't get the service they expect." LOL, i see if you just pay more for the car, you get better service. yeah, right. service has nothing to do with sales. in fact, it's an ENTIRELY different profit center (does the sales dept share commissions with the service dept? does the service dept share warranty proceeds from PCNA with the sales dept? does the service dept share non-warranty work proceeds with the sales dept? i didn't think so). further, many people had to pay premiums to sticker back in the rape days. ironically those getting hosed the hardest in those days by such unscrupulous dealers also reported a higher disatisfaction with service from the same. is it any wonder that after long wait lists, MSRP premiums, and poor service when p-car dealers were mere order takers (with little capital at risk given the market) owing to higher demand than supply that those same customers are now giving back what they recieved now that supply outstrips demand. wake up and smell the capitalism. it doesn't just work when it's in your favor. btw, i doubt seriously that a very high % of total p-cars sold are sold anywhere near invoice still. stop talking like a dealer bruce and try and empathise with and learn from your customers while you still have a successful franchise.

Sorry I came down so hard Bruce. But you have to recognize that all of us know these cars are really expensive. So many get more than they can really afford, and that's not a salesman's fault - the buyer is responsible. But when you have a high payment due and the car is in the shop for 2-3 weeks and you're driving a rental while paying for this "coach", it can get a lot of people pissed. I suspect the service guy's get the brunt and service is a different profit area. I've been a RE broker for 35 years and have been used, abused and lied to; but that's part of the territory (and for a commission only job). Hell, I never got the credit for the RE I sold when it went up, even tho I had to shove it down the buyers throat; it was the buyer's business acumen; ask him he'll tell you.... Excuse the rant......, it just felt good....

"So many get more than they can really afford, and that's not a salesman's fault - the buyer is responsible." yes, and we all know car salesmen never try to up sale be it via higher commission models and/or options.

this story has "60 Minutes" written allllll over it. would be probably have more of an effect than a lawsuit....

yep, lawsuits and tv exposes are exactly the right venue for illuminating extortion in a way a single screwed customer never will be able to.

Unfortunatly the amount of profit being made really does not matter when it comes to customer service. Here's why, the basics of customer service do not cost anything extra. Those basics include what I stated in prior posts, honest, returning phone calls and being gracious. The employees are hired to do their job, in the auto dealer business a large part of that job is customer service. Now how will the employee act and treat customers is in large part developed by the business practices of the specific dealer. If the dealer's main focus is on profit profit profit then you will have your employees pulling all the stops and pissing people off. but if the dealer realizes that good customer service = return customers = good reputation = lots of profit then everyone is happy. Unfortunatly the latter is not the norm in my experiences. Now Bruce, I understand your frustration with the customers wanting the cheapest price and forcing you guys to make less money, that is just the way the world is now, and it sucks. People don't care about service, support, quality, fairness or anything like that anymore, all they care about is getting the car at the very lowest price possible. In my sales profession that makes the job very hard and I see it in the auto business as well. But Ben has a VERY good point, don't complain about people wanting the lowest price when the dealers goal is to get the highest price, even sellling the cars for thousands more than the manufactuer wants the car sold for. That is just not fair either! I think Torags has a very good idea, and I wish I knew if manufactueres did this, but to have customer service reps to hold training sessions for the dealership sales/service force. That way the dealer is not out any cash for the training, the customer gets good service and comes back which benefits all. Now if could only find a way into being an auto manufacturer's rep instead of a tire manufacturer's rep I would be in heaven and I could do those sessions myself

I must go on record as being very satisfied with my Pcar service. After reading the vortex(VW) forum I chose Pcars for my SUV. However, I bought the S, 200 mi away from my home (& local dealers) and I did not get it for invoice. They appeared happy with the sale.

Ben, Yes all departments have their own profit requirements but it all goes to the same bottom line, where good dealers retain around 2% net to gross. Many dealers are small, family owned businesses that often make no profit. So my point was that a more profitable dealer could afford to higher college trained or a better quality of employee that potentially would provide better service rather than hiring anybody who could not get a job elsewhere. Many of you make very valid points, and I learn a lot from them.

PS. I am not a Porsche dealer(wish I was since I love the marque). Just a poor domestic dealer who has no hot product to gouge anyone on.

Bruce I've got to tell you that these mega dealer hires are not more intelligent. I can't address quality, because I don't know what that means. High school grads who have decent upbringing and are polite (& who speak English), can be trained with new model videos and existing personnel. High school summer interns (gofers) who are NOT going to college would be proud to be associated with Pcars. Also early retirees from customer service type employment are excellent candidates. College grads have expectations that may be too high and result in turnover & they're not at mega dealers.

Torags, The types of people you mention are among the successful people we hire. I just wish we could afford to pay them more and not have to pressure them so much to achieve profits. But that's business. Obviously, the mere size of a dealer or group does not guarantee profitability, although economize of scale helps. My point was that there are many car dealers that barely get by, regardless of size. We often can not afford to hire more skilled people or even a larger volume of people to help serve our customers. I wish we could afford 10 cleanup people so we could wash every service customers' car, for example.

Bruce I understand your situation. I was given the opportunity to be an equity partner in a dealership. After exhaustive due diligence I decided it didn't pencil for my purposes. Additionally the manufacturer has a lot to do with dealer success, at that time Nissan was being beat up, now they have about three hot models. Even when doing well it's a narrow margin.... These Pcar dealers are not used to high flooring costs, they have backed up sports car inventory and Cayenne absorption, they may not be having a picnic after the dust settles.......

WOW..!! I had no idea my original thread had so much emotion tied to it. My position is simple in I think me being held accountable for what I don't control clearly demonstrates professional immaturity by my dealer. I don't control if the service manager uses a checklist(he dosn't and should) where the techs walk around the vehicle to "ensure" it's not damaged after they've worked on it, which mine was. I also don't control PCNA sending them the wrong parts, which I also suffered from. In addition I don't control whether the techs state an unrealistic delivery time for repairs, which they "may" fail to meet, which I was a victum of. All in all, my dealer is good, but clearly they need to focus on the process of a complete experience opposed to a quick hit, tactical get me in get me out approach. Plus I feel very strongly that the survey I originaly took is not effective for real metrics for the dealer. If my last 10 visits were great but the survey wants only the most recent, which was bad, then the survey needs serious attention to reengieering. It's all about process and the facts...not finger pointing. Hopefully this thread will get noticed by someone who can make a difference, both for us and the service guys. Phattey...

Phattey, Thanks for bringing the subject up. It has been enjoyable and educational discussing it. By the way, where does your username come from, if I may ask. It's kinda funny, used as slang in some circles.

Depending on which era you apply it, it does have different meanings. 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's all have a paticular use for the name. While I regretably admit to knowing of those eras and the association with the name, me using it was very simple. It is the custom license plate I had for my Harley Road King. Of course the slang around it seems to humor folks in my generation... We'll keep that a secret though. Ciao Ciao...

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