Observation on 993 v 996 debate (long)

I've been on the board now for about 6 months, have had my 996 for about 5. In that time I keep seeing a familiar pattern emerge where 993 & 996 owners start debating which cars are better. I've observed a couple of things, which I'll state only because I find it interesting, not to start a negative topic. For the most part, I have noticed 996 owners (on the board and in person) speaking quite highly of the older 911s. Almost universally, they have tremednous respect for the aircooled models, are complimentary of their design, performance, and of their place in sports car history. Conversely, almost every 993 (and older) owner seems to speak derogatorily about the watercooled models. They deride the design, they speak insultingly about the performance, and the overall message is one where a 996 is not even a true Porsche. I'm confused by this fact: that 996 owners almost all respect the older models, and that almost all aircooled owners ridicule the 996s. I guess I have to assume that most aircooled model owners that love the 996 have probably already made the move to one (given that they've been out for about 5 years now). So that leaves most aircooled-model owners having chosen NOT to get a 996 (for one reason or another). What could those reasons be? From a purely clinical viewpoint, this makes no sense. The 996 is faster, handles better, is more ergonomically designed, is more comfortable for daily usage, gets better gas mileage, and is overall a more technically sophisticated auto. Design-wise, I guess you can't argue taste, but the 996 looks damn good to me (and pretty much everyone else I run across). So why dislike the new car so much? This doesn't seem to happen with any other car, where people insist that a new version is a bad thing. How many Testerossa owners complain that a 360 just isn't Ferrari enough? Or that the new Ford Explorer is 'too comfortable' to be a real SUV? How about amongst Corvette owners - anyone think an 84 Vette bests an 03 Z04? Of course not. Even in world of the 7-series (where the Bangle-ized design is so hard to love), every friend that's gotten one has loved it through & through, and every friend with an older-design 7 wants a newer one. So again, what's so different about the 911s? And, interestingly, there's a lot of intense animosity toward the discussion. It''s not just that the 996 is mildly disliked, more like hated it seems. As though somehow the mere existence of the 996 diminishes the experience of owning an older model. Or that it diminishes the value of the Porsche crest itself. Interesting. Makes no sense to me...

I am a new 996 owner and was quite surprised by this. Having had a 944, I've always wanted a 911 and didn't experience much "snobbery" or anti-944/watercool sentiment from the 911 owners I met. With boats (Sea Ray) every owner I've met appreciates the newer models and is complementary (if not jealous). Sure, there are design changes, but mostly, evolution is a good thing. I'm quite shocked by this 993v996 thing. Ed

Here's my best attempt to explain the phenomenon outlined so well above. I bring to this analysis ample experience as an owner of a 95 993 C4 for 8 years and a 2003 C4S for 4 months as well as an active PCA track experience and first hand knowledge of many Porsche owners of these and other cars. It is exactly because the 996 is faster, smoother, quiter, more comfortable, more usable and more user friendly that the 993 people have a problem with it. They cherish the idea that purity requires compromise, to suffer with a harsher ride, a louder exhaust, a heater that isn't good, a defroster that doesn't work, a stereo that is an embarassment, etc... is the mark of the pure believer, the cognoscenti, the elite who value the undiluted Porsche experience over these other mundane considerations that drive the rest of the world to buy Camrys by the millions. I don't take it personally, they are not angry or hostile, they are pure and we are the unwashed who have sold out. And, by extension, Porsche has sold out by catering to these desires with the 996 which is so good, its bad! Popular culture is full of this kind of thing, look at those who love stereos with vacum tubes, vinyl records, mechanical watches (rather than quartz) etc. etc.. It is actually quite admirable in some ways, the emotional attachments we form to the "things" in our lives can be important and anything that makes us less susceptible to the "throw away" attitudes so widespread in our world is not at all a bad thing. Sorry if that sounds pretentious.

<img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> The first year 996 had "issues" !!! This opened the "door" for the 993 & air cooled guys to "point fingers" @ the new "Water Pumpers"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Any one thats honest today has to agree that the 996 is a great "street car" a GT if you will! Finally with the GT 2 and GT 3 porsche is making a "sports car" for the die-hard enthusiast!!!

Most of you guys aren't old enough to remember the non-electronic chit-chat that transpired when between the 356 guys and the 911 guys when the 911 came out in 1964-5. While they were both air-cooled one was a boxer 4 and the "new" model was a boxer 6. While it's nearly 40 years later there are people who prefer the 356 over the 911. It will never end! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Hmm 993/mechanical watch. Good analogy. Ahh mechanical watches... I once heard them described as "tragically heroic" in the face of quartz. Kind of a "Charge of The Light Brigade" parallel. Zenith El Primero movements rule!

Don, you are so right! I once read a letter from a Scarsdale Dentist "venting his spleen" at Porsche - in short, he had driven Porsches for "15 years", and this new car was no Porsche. In fact, he was so sure this new car would be a failure that he demanded Porsche buy his latest car back - he wanted no part of Porsche - in 1964!!!! The new car was of course, the 911!!! Too funny, but true. J

you guys better check out the 3 hours on the track post to see what is the most capeable Porsche. However if I was taking my mother in law to dinner a 996, silver with some cushy Lincoln shocks would be my choice. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Here's my 2 cents. Some of us who own 996s had driven and owned 993s, 964s, 911s, etc. - loved them, cared for them, and driven them but for some reason, we had to give them up. So most of us have a deep appreciation for aircooled Porsches. As for some of the owners who currently own the aircooled models, perhaps they haven't had the chance to drive the 996. It is an entirely different 911. Besides, change is hard to accept sometimes.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by bill walczak: <strong>you guys better check out the 3 hours on the track post to see what is the most capeable Porsche. However if I was taking my mother in law to dinner a 996, silver with some cushy Lincoln shocks would be my choice. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Observe the aircooled 911 owner attempting to stir the pot, once again...

I probably found my way to 996 ownership via a slightly different route to most. 914 - 928 - 996. I've spent enough time in various 911 models over the years to have a pretty good feel for most of them and had been promising myself one for a very very very long time. Always figured it would be a 993 but drove a 996, loved it, bought it. It was that simple. I don't think I ever met a Porsche I didn't like in all honesty. They all have their own attributes (my son still drives the 914) and they're all fantastic motor cars and no way can you fault anyone for liking/ preferring any one of them over any other. For me the 996 is simply the best car I've ever been in/ driven. Well my pals 355 is close but hardly a daily driver. Others may think otherwise of course and all power to them. Life would be awfully dull if everyone thought and did the same thing. Colin

Luddite One who distrusts or fears the inevitable changes brought about by new technology.

i think that dadc4s has said it well. i have been lucky enough to have a 944turbo, a 911 targa (1987), a 928s4, a 964c4, a 993, a 996, a 996 c4, and a 996 turbo. there is no bad porsche, there are only improved porsches.

I was fortunate enough to be able to get a 993 C4S. I certainly had a choice of a 996 or a 993. I chose the 993 because it was what I wanted. It is very difficult to compare the two because they mean different things to different people who interpret them differently. Don't blame a "993" guy for stirring the pot when a "996" guy turned on the flame. Pure and simple, two great machines that have different appeal.

Hey Zee Zee. Plese let me express an avid 993's opinion on the matter. A good friend of mine, at my urging, bought a Porsche, albeit a 996. I drove his. He drove mine. We both came up with the same description. "Different". No joke. That was the word. However, he and I are different. I am smart. He is an idiot. Obviously, I am making a joke here... There will always be the one person, whether 996 or 993, that has derogatory comments about the other. Really, what is the big deal? The truth is, the cars ARE different. One appeals to one buyer, the other appeals to yet another. Is one better? Yes, to the buyer it is. End of story. "I guess I have to assume that most aircooled model owners that love the 996 have probably already made the move to one (given that they've been out for about 5 years now). So that leaves most aircooled-model owners having chosen NOT to get a 996 (for one reason or another). What could those reasons be?" "Visceral" is my response. Would I buy a 996? I came close a year ago. I test-drove a C4S. It wasn't for me. Not a cut-down. Not a flame. It just wasn't for me. "Design-wise, I guess you can't argue taste, but the 996 looks damn good to me (and pretty much everyone else I run across)." The key words here are "to me". Bottom line, don't worry about it. It really doesn't make a difference. If you get a chance, come down to Hermosa (since you are local). Let's swap cars for an hour. $10 says you will drive away happy that you bought yours, and I will drive away happy that I bought mine. Send me an e-mail if you are interested.

The 993 is the last of the air cooled 911 and they own that right to say that- whereas for the 996 we own the right of the first water-cooled 911-isn't that something to be proud about for both of us : ). Regards. Mike

IT's like dog owners - people who like different breeds are far apart and need to see themselves as better. all porsches are great ane worth owning but different breeds for different folks

I have been a Porsche fan since 1958. I remember when the 911 was introduced and the tension with the 356 crowd. I have personally completely dismantled a 911, 356, and 914/6 and really enjoy working on the cars, especially the engines. I've owned 911, 912, 914/6, 924 and 944 cars so water cooling is not an issue. I readily admit that the 996 is a step forward in many areas such as wind noise control, general noise control, systems development such as HVAC, audio, etc. The suspension and brakes are great.The styling is nice, hey it's a great car. What turns me off though is the engine and gearbox in the standard 996 which I feel are retrograde developments compared to the air-cooled car's units. The engine is not designed to be easily rebuilt, the dry sump is gone, the engine has a main seal problem which still may not be solved, the gearbox has no servicable internals. This is not gearhead stuff. To stand around and say nothing is hard for me to do, particularly when Porsche brags about how much money they are making per vehicle. I think the 911 should always have had a dry sumped basic engine and the G50 gearbox or at least a servicable gearbox. Porsche indirectly admits the regular 996 engine and gearbox are not up to true high performance duty since they don't use them in the GT2,GT3,Turbo,Supercup or GT3RS cars. In these cars the engine is based on the original dry sump air cooled crankcase introduced in 1963 but modified with water cooling similar, actually quite similar, to what was done for the Porsche 962 engine. The gearbox is an evolution of the G50 design with interchangable gear ratios and servicable internals. These are gearhead cars. Maybe someday I'll get a 996 GT3 but for now no regular 996 for me, anyway I've gotta get back to a project in the garage: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/P1010254Small.JPG" alt=" - " />

Just because something is new people automatically assume it's better. Aircooled Porsches are icons to feel passionate about, you can see the passion, the quality and attention to detail that went into building them. No doubt many owners see these same qualities in themselves. Usually when a product changes to appeal to a broader audience, it changes for the worst - it's character diluted. When I think Porsche I think character; I also think quirkiness, focus and zero compromise, but these attributes don't sell in mass. To me the 996 is like the summer blockbuster movie sequel, sure everyone will go see it opening weekend, but it's the original that gets their hearts. I'm sure Wendelin Weideking is Agent Smith...

Mark and Cupcar -- well said. DadC4S: Your theory that the 993 guys have a problem with the 996 because of the several readily acknowledged advances of the 996 is absolutely incorrect! We are well aware that the 996 is faster (though only slightly), more stable under braking, etc. It should be -- it's Porsche's latest "911." However, in spite of those 996 advantages, there are MANY reasons that we prefer the overall package that is the 993, and Mark and Cupcar mentioned a few of them. It most certainly isn't because we don't like new things. I recall the intro of the 993 -- it was loved immediately when it was new. Re-read the 993 board's posts on this debate, and you should understand us better. We 993 owners acknowledge and accept the 996's advantages, but SOME of you 996 owners cannot seem to accept that retrograde steps were made in the 996 as well. Most of us 993 guys do like 996s, but we like the 993 better. I also think that part of the frustration for the 993 group is that many of us would like to buy a new Porsche, but Porsche doesn't make a car today that we find as desirable as the one(s) we already own.

Don't try too hard to find the rationale. Let's be honest here--buying a Porsche sports car for most of us was an emotional decision. Unless you race for a living/serious hobby, it's hard to justify a Porsche as a form of transportation. And if it's emotional, then good luck trying to pin it down! Most SUV owners don't *really* need a 4x4 for their grocery shopping, although they'll try to rationalize it. Likewise, certain anti-SUV bigots like myself have equally strong feelings about them. If I'm cornered and forced to explain my dislike, it has more to do with it's image than it's fuel consumption, saftey etc. I, for one, enjoy the endless 993 vs 996 debate--it's the one reliable, never-ending soap opera that I can tune into on Rennlist when my own forum gets slow . cheers!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Speedraser: <strong>I also think that part of the frustration for the 993 group is that many of us would like to buy a new Porsche, but Porsche doesn't make a car today that we find as desirable as the one(s) we already own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well said, my son. I just hope someone at PAG is listening.

What is it about the 911 that captures our heart and soul? The shape, the sound, the smell, the seemingly never ending torgue and HP curve, planting your foot and giving in before the car does, the dash, the dials, the curves. The 993 has everything I ever loved in a Porsche before I could afford to buy one. Classic style and great hips. For me, I just love the 993 shape (particularly those hips!)combined with the classic Porsche features. The 996 is more comfortable to drive, with more leg room for a 6'6 guy and more comfortable seats. Not good enough reasons for me to choose one. Now, on the other hand, the 996 Turbo and GT3 are great looking cars. But, C2 to C2, I will pick a 993 C2 over a 996 C2 for classic features and great lines. To each his own, no matter what C2 you prefer, you have made a great choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by MetalSolid: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Speedraser: <strong>I also think that part of the frustration for the 993 group is that many of us would like to buy a new Porsche, but Porsche doesn't make a car today that we find as desirable as the one(s) we already own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well said, my son. I just hope someone at PAG is listening.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">After wanting to buy a 911 new since I was a young lad (circa 1970), and ready to order up last year, at the dealer test drive I discovered that the 996 was not my style. Reason? MetalSolid, Speedraser, and Cupcar express well my reaction. Nothing against the 996 as being a great car, just didn't do it for me. Fifteen years after my prior Porsche experience ended, I had to go elsewhere. Maybe when I am next ready, the 997 will fix everything...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by MetalSolid: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Speedraser: <strong>I also think that part of the frustration for the 993 group is that many of us would like to buy a new Porsche, but Porsche doesn't make a car today that we find as desirable as the one(s) we already own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well said, my son. I just hope someone at PAG is listening.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Absolutely agree.

Here's my history with Porsches. I first fell in love with the 928. It had the sexiest form and appeal at that time. I house sat for a friend who had a 930 turbo and a 928. My "pay" was the owner's consent to use the cars for the two weeks. The 930 turbo just did not do it for me. It was too..........visceral, I guess is the term to be nice. This impression carried into the current age. I liked the idea, the prestige, and the performance, but the whole package of the 911 as a car never came together well enough for me. Nothing bad, it just wasn't for me. 993 came close, but I still passed on it. Middle age comes, and I'm looking at ragtops. Among the multitude of ragtops was the Boxster. I liked the Boxster, not because it was a Porsche, I just happened to think it was the best ragtop for me. I had one spec'd out, ready to order, when I drove a friends 2001 C4 coupe. Now, this was the 911 for me! It all finally came together. The history, the marque, the prestige, were always there, but now, here was the car that offered more. I was still hesitant since I already had one foot in the Boxster, when the devil of a dealer showed me the pic of the C4S. I drove the C4S home several months later. I have to agree with Mark from Hermosa, a 993 owner, on his post on this thread. To each his own. Do I think a 993 is a great car? Absolutely. Would I have bought a a 993? No.

I dont mean to nitpick, but saying a 930 turbo is like saying a 911 turbo turbo. I see a lot of people saying this and just wanted to throw in the correction. Kind of like saying 951 turbo, 944 turbo turbo.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ZeeZee: [QB]Conversely, almost every 993 (and older) owner seems to speak derogatorily about the water cooled models. They deride the design, they speak insultingly about the performance, and the overall message is one where a 996 is not even a true Porsche.QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">FWIW, Porsche has put water-cooled heads on their highest-level race cars since the late 1970's, including the final evolution of the 935 which was the 935/78 'Moby Dick'. If you accept that racing improves the breed, then you must concede that Porsche knows whats best when they nixed oil-cooled technology. If 993 guys want to live in the past, let 'em. To it's credit, there would not be a 996 today without the 993; but I would probably not own a Porsche today if all we had was the 993.

Agree to each his own, have owned both liquid cooled and air cooled 911s. Also think it is absolutely useless/silly to say one model is "better" than another, or more track capable, based on club race results.

Let's cut through all the BS...go to technodyneracing.com Read their Project Racing 996 article. They are campaigning a 996 race car...they delineate in painful detail, just what is invoved, and the positive and negative character of the car. There are a number of comparisons made between the 993 and the 996 car for Club Racing applications. The primary strength of the 996, in their point of view, is the chassis, because it is wide, light and low . I won't break your heart with the down side of the conversion article <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> ...it is shocking what they write. Rather than list the details, I'll leave it up to you to read. Over the past few months here is what I have concluded. Converting a 993 to a 993 RS car can be done...expensive, but it can be done . Converting a 996 car to a GT3 car, cannot be done, unless you chuck everything but the chassis . For those that can't find the article, send me an e-mail and I will send it to you as well. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Martin S - I am a longtime lurker, infrequent poster, and I mean no disrespect, but: assuming the 993 is much closer to the base factory race car of its era than the 996 is to the base factory race car of its era - so what? Both the 993 and 996 are street cars, and need an awful lot of conversion to make them very good race cars. Take a skilled driver and put him in the base stock 996, and I'll bet he'll be faster than he'd be in the base stock 993 - he'd better be, I guess, or Porsche has done something wrong. I agree the 993 and 996 are quite different cars; I prefer the base 993 to the base 996, but prefer the new 996 GT3 to both. Purely subjective. Not sure why Porsche owners feel it necessary to eat their dead, but perhaps the 996 has come a long way. A few years ago the argument was whether the 996 is a "real" Porsche; now the argument seems to be whether it is a bad Porsche.

Above we see, "Take a skilled driver and put him in the base stock 996, and I'll bet he'll be faster than he'd be in the base stock 993 - he'd better be." Read the Technodyneracing article. You may conclude that your statement is not necessarily true. I have sent you the article as a private e-mail . The 993 and 996 are great cars. The 996 is truly high tech when you compare engines on a pure technical level with Variocam, 4 valves per cylinder, water cooled, etc. Let me suggest that the primary thing in common between a GT3 RS car and a street 996, they both use water for cooling. But that is as it should be. The GT3 RS car is a single purpose race car, the 996 is a primary purpose street car, that can be converted for Club Racing with some major modifications, and no help from Porsche Motorsports . The 993 car, is a street car that can be converted to a race car/club racer by incorporating the special mods from the 993RS and 993 RSR car. Racing parts are available from Porsche Motorsports for this car . I could go on for days...read the article, make up your mind when you see what it takes to get the 996 street car ready for the track. I think you will agree that the 993 is an easier conversion to a Club Racer. That is the only point I am trying to make. As to which is the better car, that debate will continue, with no fuel for that fire from me. Both are fine cars <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> .

"I think you will agree that the 993 is an easier conversion to a Club Racer. That is the only point I am trying to make." Great, interesting article, thanks, and based on that article I do agree! Certainly daunting for the would-be 996 club racer. Also agree both are fine cars.

And yet - I stand by my surmise that a bone stock 996 is faster on the track than a bone stock 993, using the base models of both and a single, skilled driver, in a time trial type setting. I cannot believe Porsche would have it otherwise. I really don't have an axe to grind - in fact, I don't even own a 996 right now, our only P car is a 964 cab!

Could be, don't really know, too many variables. I am just back from a little cruise in the 993...great car for me...and I am lucky to have it. I always recall the words of my former boss, and I am certain he borrowed them from somebody else, "I'd rather be lucky than good!"

"I am just back from a little cruise in the 993...great car for me...and I am lucky to have it." Always feel this way, lucky, blessed, after I drive my Porsche, too, especially when I take my daughter. Cheers.

To really be fair in this comparison, you have to consider some other things. Porsche can't build 993s anymore, for a hundred different reasons. The 996 is what it is because Porsche had to finally step away from its goal of building sportscars. When they decided the new goal was to build sportscars at a huge profit, the 993 had to die. I can sum up my article in one sentence: While the 996 has a marginally better chassis, the 993 is overall a much better racecar. Please note that I am NOT talking about factory built cars. One has to remember, however, that most of Porsche's customers don't take their cars to track. A 996 seems to be more suitable for cruising around town or driving across the country. But then again, a 7-series BMW is much more suitable yet. It's practicality and comfort are far better, and its performance is 95% as good under real-world (non-racetrack) conditions. You have to give Porsche credit for taking care of those of us who want a car to take to the track. The performance of the GT2 and GT3 cars is staggering, and they still make perfectly acceptable street cars. The thing about 911s in general is that they are so damn fun to drive. In stock form, a 73 Carrera RS is FAR more fun than a stock 993 or 996. But time has simply passed the 73 RS by, as it will eventually pass by the 993 and 996. If you want a Porsche to race casually, a 993 is probably the best choice. The 993 RSR was and is an unbelievably fast and strong car, but it is simply no match for a modern (and 996 based) GT3RS. They've been making Porsches for over 50 years now. Some are excellent and some are crap. It is up to each of us to decide which model is which.

A stock US spec 996 is faster on a road course than a stock US spec 993. The only reason we see so many 993's doing well is a) more of them racing and b) they have a RS loophole which allows them to shed 350# and install taller gears.

Ok, here's my $0.02. The 996 is a modern 911 with modern 911 styling and a modern 911 engine. Things must evolve. That does not make the 993 inferior, it makes it different. I was deciding b/w a 993 C4S and a 996 C4S. My wife and I live in a four-seasons climate and only own one car. While I would have loved to have the 993, it was not as liveable as a daily driver or an all-weather car. Personally, I am glad the 996 has been softened a bit. Not all Porsche owners have the space or money for a track car, some of us just love to have one to drive all the time and wouldn't be happy with anything else.

When will this topic be officially beat to death? It's like trying to argue whether pie is better than cake.

This is a great thread; What winds me up is how Porsche were bragging about how much profit they were making out of the 986 and 996 models when it was obvious that huge savings had been made in the engine/transmission department (see Cupcar's post). I have said it before, the GT3 engine and box should be the BASE engine for a 996. IMO Porsche have simply ripped off 996 buyers - they charged you hand built GT3 engine and box money and gave you mass produced Japanese manufacturing.

Bill, That is far from the only reason you see more 993s club racing. I think Chris said it but will I will repeat that it is because the 993s are easier to set up and more durable. Plus 993s are getting to a good price point.

The 993 was an evolution of the original 911, the 996 is a revolution. The 996 is also getting pretty attractive from a price point. John H, Triple black typically refers to a black Cab with black top and black interior.

The issue here is not air vs. water cooling it's about the path Porsche has taken to profits. I think most would agree that water cooling is superior to air/oil cooling particularly since it allows 4 valve cylinder heads. This is because efficient air passages are not possible in a 4 valve design and why the 911 Moby Dick 935/78 had water cooled heads BUT had air cooled cylinders . Porsche furthur developed the 935/78 engine to have water cooled cylinders as well for the 962 racing car. If you want a version of THIS engine then get in line for a GT3 or buy a Turbo since the engine in these cars is a direct descendent of this 962 version. This is what us gearheads loved about Porsche in the past- the racing stuff went directly into the street cars For the basic 996 engine and gearbox Porsche went the cheap way to provide the customer with a 4 valve, twin cam, 6 speed powertrain. The engine is cast together with it's crankcase and cylinders as one lump. The cylinders have the so called Lokasil silicon treatment instead of the superior Nikasil, there is no dry sump. It is basically not easily rebuildable as I see it. The engine was designed to give the specs of a great engine but: "without the beef". Quoting TB993tt: "I have said it before, the GT3 engine and box should be the BASE engine for a 996. IMO Porsche have simply ripped off 996 buyers - they charged you hand built GT3 engine and box money and gave you mass produced Japanese manufacturing." Gotta get back to my project, it's coming along: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/P1010265Small.JPG" alt=" - " />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Cupcar: <strong> This is what us gearheads loved about Porsche in the past- the racing stuff went directly into the street cars </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The problem for "us gearheads" is that Porsche realised that the majority of their customers (Rennlisters excepted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) have no idea what is under their hoods other than it is a flat six. I can think of the seven friends I know well who have 996s, 996 turbos and a GT2 and they wouldn't have a clue what we are talking about re 986/996 engine vs GT3/turbo they just like the fact they are driving the latest Porsche - one even jokes with me about my car being "an old dog" <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Us old Hot Rodders know beauty is more than skin deep. I bet when Porsche "focus grouped" the 996 they found it loud and clear that the average future buyer had never looked at an engine in detail or looked at a drawing of an engine. Probably why you can see less of the engine then ever in a 911 and can't see it at all in the Boxster. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

IMHO, just b'cause some may not know much about the engine details between two different models, doesn't mean that they bought their porsche, b'cause it is the 'latest'. One can be ignorant of what's inside of two cars, still drive it and be able to decide which one they prefer. I hope evryone who buys a porsche buys it, b'cause thats the porsche they like. If I test-drive a 993 and 996, like the 996, and end up buying a 993, just b'cause it has the race-bred engine, i think i am making a not so smart decision. As to the person who thinks your car is "an old dog", I have to concede not all 996 owners know what they are talking about.

I just had to throw in my $.02 here. Like lots of you I'm sure, I've lusted after 911s since I was about 3. In the past couple years, i finally worked myself into a position where I could afford one. I've probably been "shopping" 85-89 Carreras, 964s and 993s for the past 10 years, and have driven several of each variety. Luckily, while drooling over the 911s, I've had the opportunity to own & drive many great examples of balanced high performance machines. I think they ultimately spoiled me. I understand, at a fairly deep level, the theoretical advantages of the early cars. It's great to know your car is over-built. It's a source of pride. I love the way the early cars look, and wanted very badly to love the way they drove. Unfortunately, I could never get past the fact that the cars felt a bit antiquated to me from the handling & power perspectives. It wasn't until I drove a '02+ carrera that it all clicked -- for me. It drove the way I felt a modern 911 should drive, and it positively shone in comparison to the other cars I've owned. The overall performance & driving experience blew me away. So, I bought one. Yes, the theoretical advantage of the early cars from a build perspective sometimes bugs me. Would I like to have bragging rights? Sure. But, like 99% of the other owners out there, I'll probably track my car less than once/year. I'll spend my time driving it hard on near & far backroads & enjoying every minute of it. Will the engine be up to this task? I'm pretty confident it will be. Would I like to think I could go out and run it at LeMans? Well, sure, when I'm building up the theoretical experience in my head. Does it really matter in the real world? No. The power/torque/drivability advantages of the 3.6l 996 motor outweighs the theoretical deficiencies, at least to me. I just can't imagine myself getting out-pulled by a faster car and telling myself: it's OK, I've got a race car engine I hope to someday have the means & space to add a nice early 911 in the garage. I'll look at it lots, but it probably won't get driven much. Scott.

adscab911, The triple black thing goes back to ridiculous description of a Black Coupe on ebay that circulated Rennlist awhile ago. Thanks for the reminder though. I changed my signature. It sold this weekend. Yeehaw!!

Lot's of guys who own 993's are very partial to their cars. Some like the 996 just as much and now own a 996, or even both. I think everyone will admit the 993 does have a strong following because it's the last of a specific type of 911 - air cooled, no-frills, unique rumble, etc. For those very reasons there are people who are drawn to the 996 - quieter, more comfortable, etc. It's like 2 brothers always wanting the upper hand with each other. One knows he's slightly faster, the other has visually bigger arms. As competitive as they are, when somone outside the family enters the picture, it's obvious where their loyalty lies. I bought my 993 because it's simply what I wanted. But every time I see a 996 I chat with the owner if I get a chance. I point it out to my wife - "there's a 911 over there". I'm damn happy with my car, and I should be 'cause it was my money that bought it. As should all the owners of 996, 964, 911 ........

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by MetalSolid: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Speedraser: <strong>I also think that part of the frustration for the 993 group is that many of us would like to buy a new Porsche, but Porsche doesn't make a car today that we find as desirable as the one(s) we already own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well said, my son. I just hope someone at PAG is listening.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This, to me, says it all. The new GT3 is the car that the 996 should have been from the start. I hope that is the engine the use for the basis of the 997. I want a new car from Porsche, with this engine, the seats in the back for my kids, and a sound that inspires driving the heck out of it. Keep the normal exhaust for those that like it, but give us the option of the sport exhaust to listen to the sweet melody of a racing engine. Without having to pay the price of a Turbo or GT2... That is not asking much...

all the comparison between new and old keep going on not only with porsches but with ferraris, bimmers and benzs. Its easy for someone to compare the preceding generation car with the current generation car, but one thing you have to realize is that technology keeps getting better with time. Those that say the 993 is better, keep in mind that the 998 is coming out soon and it will be harder to justify that it's still a better car. The 998 will probably have the same fundamental design aspects as the 996 but even more improved and geared toward what people complained about the 996 except being watercooled. I try to tell myself that I can keep my car forever, but its never going to happen.I can tell you how many people I know who said their car is going to be a keeper, invested all kinds of money for upgrades, etc. but a few years later the technology is outdated and they give up and drop the clunker. I remember being a BMW owner people complained which one was better the M3 E30 or the M3 E36. Now try comparing the M3 E30 to an M3 E46, the E30 looks like driving a lunch box. All of us in life only get older our backs start to hurt, later you will change and realize that your needs in life will also change. There will be a time when the 993s, and the 996's will be so ancient you will all laugh why you even wasted time comparing the two when something as simple as a future generation Toyota Celica or Neon SRT will probably be faster and sleeker looking than a 996 or 993 to the average person 20 years from now. The bottom line is as we get older enjoy life with what you like and have fun. As time moves along, things can only get better, so don't limit yourself to debating that yours is the ultimate best. Just enjoy it, period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">There will be a time when the 993s, and the 996's will be so ancient you will all laugh why you even wasted time comparing the two when something as simple as a future generation Toyota Celica or Neon SRT will probably be faster and sleeker looking than a 996 or 993 to the average person 20 years from now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm... how much for a 1973 Carrera 2.7 RS?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Hmmm... how much for a 1973 Carrera 2.7 RS? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">i had a mint condition one sell for $100k on Porsche need for speed. The RS was as high as you can get back then and rare. Just like a GT3 is today. We're comparing regular production cars here, not collector cars.

So why is it that 996's get no factory motorsport support in light of the fact that 996 supercup and GT 3R cars are campaigned in North American racing series? Pardon my ignorance. Also, my next purchase is going to be a p-car; however, I track my car ~ 12/year, or more, and have been going back and forth b/w a 993 and a 996; I'd like to get into a 993 C2S, but they're still beyond my means --is the 996 in such an instance a better buy, or will a "regular" 993 c2 be the better of the two to track. I intend on adding exh, h&r or bilstein pss9 coilovers, wheels, GT 3 seats (can you get these for the 993?), and a roll cage to which ever car, just not sure as most of the comments seem to betray that if the car will be track routinely, the 996 isn't up to the task? Thoughts?

I'm getting in on the tail end of this discussion, an interloper from the 993 board, but I drove (2) 996's and loved them both, right before I bought my 96 993 C4S 6 months ago. The 996's had almost better everything (A/C, seats, speedo, radio, interior, comfort, speed)! I was torn and frayed as to what to do... as I LOVED the classic look of the 993, but knew the 996 had it beat in all the other areas. Being the stubborn ba$stard I can be sometimes, I ended up shunning the 996 and went strictly for looks - the 993 C4S. I'm sure a 2003 996 TT is in my future one day, about 10 years from now when they are "cheap", but for now, I'm driving the car that gets my blood pumping everytime I see it - whether it's from the front, the side, the rear, from above... I never got that feeling from the normally aspirated 996 <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> . Steve

Steve, with all due respect to your 993, if you drove a 996 equipped with ROW 030 and Sport exhaust you would have found it just as visceral an experience as any 993. Looks wise, I can't argue, the 993 wins every time. IMHO. cheers

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by stiles_s: <strong> Like lots of you I'm sure, I've lusted after 911s since I was about 3. In the past couple years, i finally worked myself into a position where I could afford one. I've probably been "shopping" 85-89 Carreras, 964s and 993s for the past 10 years, and have driven several of each variety. Luckily, while drooling over the 911s, I've had the opportunity to own & drive many great examples of balanced high performance machines. I think they ultimately spoiled me. Scott.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Scott captures my experience exactly (except I might have been 10 or 11 before I knew what "lust" was). Which brings up an element of this topic only indirectly mentioned above... The target market for these two cars - as intended by Porsche - must certainly be different. That's not a commentary on why one car is more appealing than another, but rather, a commentary on the outcomes Porsche deliberately set out to achieve. Few - if any - auto manufacturers develop new models soley on the basis of how well received they will be by existing owners. Especially today, they are more motivated by capturing new market share - from other manufacturers. Porsche had to suspect that the 996 would not be well received by those who had been drawn to previous models for the reasons expressed by the 993 fans above. And yet the tradeoff can now be expressed in the unsurpassed financial performance of Porsche since the introduction of the 968 and 996. But Porsche ALSO understood the importance of its unique racing heritage as a strength in growing that market share. Think about all of the other comparisons you have read here and elsewhere.... Corvette vs. 996, SL/500 vs. 996, M5 vs. 996, etc. etc. This very board lost "Poursha" to an E55 about a month ago. The competition is very real. In my opinion, Porsche struck a good balance in targeting a new market, but one not so different as to lose its identity (as others have). The uglier debates to which ZeeZee refers in the post that kicked this thread off originate from (in my opinion): 1) Newcomers to the brand who fall into the new target market - not for the explicit connection to racing heritage, but solely for the exclusivity of ownership. THEY dilute the brand more than Porsche designers. These are the guys who must really irk 993 owners. 2) 993 owners who fall into the prior target market who vent their frustration with Porsche at the 996 owners who validate Porsche's marketing decisions. With exceptions, most of the people in the first category don't even know about Rennlist. Instead we all witness their boorish behavior on the road. Also, my guess is that the 993 crowd has a higher participation rate on Rennlist (although the 996 owners here are more likely to "get it" than the average 911-come-lately). The result (to answer your question ZeeZee) is a cohesive group of people who are passionate about their 993, who "ridicule the 996" - in front of the wrong 996 owners... perhaps the only 996 owners who can actually appreciate their perspective.