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YOUR RESEARCHExtremeContact DW vs Michelin PS2
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B) are SERIOUSLY competing in autocross, like nationals, because even at a national tour the PSS were not the limiting factor, it was the driver.
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Very disappointed as I have run Contis on most of my cars for years and was very happy with the SportContact2.
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I'm running Pole Position S-04s on my 997 and like them a lot.
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on the 996 I'm running RE-11s and like them even more...
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PS2? Get the pilot super sport...it's better AND cheaper than the PS2
If you have 8 and 10" widths, get 245 width front tires and 285 or 295 rears. Don't waste your time with the 225 front tire nonsense
I ordered a set of Conti DWs for the 993 and the installer just couldn't get the tires to balance out - it was getting frustrating. He ordered a set of the N spec Pilot Sports instead and they zeroed out very nicely and the ride was much nicer.
I'm not sure if the 996 sizes of pilot super sport are available in N-Spec. I am sure that I don't care.
The Pilot Super Sport has been a superb DD tire, and then held up great at serious autocross competition.
If you don't get n-spec tires, you're IMS will explode due to the uneven vibrations created by the tires at higher speed that will place additional lateral loads on the steel bearings that are already stressed out from a lack of lubrication.
Tire Rack rated the ExtremeContact DW 3rd to the Pilot Super Sport and Potenza S04.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=148
I have the S04 and love them. Though it's only a matter of time until their non-N rated evil causes the car to spontaneously combust.
I'm running Pole Position S-04s on my 997 and like them a lot. on the 996 I'm running RE-11s and like them even more... Both are under $1g for a set of 4.
I am running Conti DWs and will not again. Very disappointed as I have run Contis on most of my cars for years and was very happy with the SportContact2. I think the DW sidewall is far too soft. The rear of the car feels unplanted and loose. If I run at max pressure + a bit more they sort of work, but not in hard driving. I'm just waiting for them to wear out a bit more before replacing.
I don't believe the DW is available in N Spec. Looking at Tire Rack the other day there are not a lot of choices in Extreme Performance summer tires in 285/30/18 any longer - and the Michelin Super Sport is does not come in that size.
I went from Pilot Sports to the DW's and mine balanced fine. Actually, only one tire needed a 1/4 oz. weight. I don't do too much hard driving so they work for me. Just waiting to see how much noise they will make once I get over 5,000 miles on them.
For DD duty the DW's will serve you great. I have had them on several cars. In my opinion no sense paying twice as much. If you really need the extra grip at the track you should have a second set of wheels with re11, rivals, or star specs.
I'm surprised you think that for a street based tire. I have the DWS on the wife's car which are suppose to be even softer and I don't find them soft at all for street. Are you looking for Star Spec kind of stiffness?
+1 on The S04. It's a bargain considering the price (only $10 more than the DW per tire) and performance. I had contis contactsport2 before which were also very good.
Wanted to try the DW but they were not in stock. Never heard a bad thing about the DW's till in this thread though.
A couple of weeks ago I would have whole-heartedly agreed with you, but after doing an autocross on the pilot super sports, I don't think it's worth having another set unless you:
A) are going to get DOT R-comps or slicks
B) are SERIOUSLY competing in autocross, like nationals, because even at a national tour the PSS were not the limiting factor, it was the driver.
Get something like the Contis or comparable. No need to waste money on a tire that might be marginally better. You can buy yourself an extra set of rears with the money you saved!
Sorry to threadjack...but yes a 40th anniversary at least is competitive in A Street. Puts down power better than the c5z06, and more horsepower than the other cars, although I think the S2000 CR is still going to be the car to beat. I don't think it's nationals material but for anything short of that they are good to go.
I would recommend the Conti DW for a daily driver. It is an excellent sport touring tire with a supple feel and good dry traction. It has predictable on the limit handling and is forgiving when you over cook your turns.
The side wall is a bit softer than Max Summer tires but for a DD you won't notice a performance difference.
I had them on a WRX wagon for a few seasons and they were fantastic. You can charge over bumps like a rally driver and the wet traction is unprecedented.
Very very fast on the NJTP in a downpour with standing water. The car felt smooth as silk with minimal input and no meandering.
Also consider the DWS if you plan to drive in winter conditions. A little less summer traction but great all season performance with added millage compared to the DW.
Which ever you choose I don't think you can go wrong with Continental.
Good luck.
I found wet traction with the wife's DWS great as well. I did get to test the DWS winter capabilities this winter as I was too lazy to swap to our snow tires. The DWS will slide around in any snow more than an inch(not really surprising). But once warmed up, it grips great even in 20deg dry weather as I just took an entrance ramp at 90mph tonight.
In process of buying my first 993 (18 inch Hollow Spoke Turbo rims). Part of the deal is seller will put on a new set of tires. Whatever kind I want. What is the best tire (no racing, but like to drive hard). I need the
Brand, rating size etc. Currently have 8jx-x-18�..10jx-x-18
Any help would be appreciated.
RLSAMMAX
Assuming you want a true summer tire (not an all season), I think the consensus is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stock sizes for a 993 narrow body are 225/40 on the front and 265/35 on the back. Others can chime in as you can probably go wider, especially on the front.
If cost was not the primary concern, I'd go with the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires or the Continental Contisportcontacts.
Oh, and i'd go with stock size (probably 225/40-18 and 265/35-18.) You might also go with 235/40-18 and 275/40-18.
I have DWs on my M3 and have tracked them extensively on multiple BMW M cars. I have found them to have great traction - wet and dry. Excellent cornering and braking capability. Whether you use them for street, track or AX I would have no problem recommending them. To me I see no reason to spend more for the Michelins.
The m3 is way a lesser car.
Also you need the n-spec rating or the unbalanced vibrations from the tire will place additional lateral loads on your IMS and thus compromise it's reliability.
J/k on the m3(e30 m3, 2002tii, r100, e46 touring owner here).
The DW is not Porsche N-rated, and therefore not designed for the peculiar rear weigh bias of the 911.
Now... like a lot of you probably, I used to think this was just Porsche marketing BS. I ran Sumitomo HTRZIIIs on my 968 and was very happy with them. However, my experience with the DW on my 911 has changed that opinion. The difference in handling between my previous Conti SportContact2s and the DWs on the car was surprising, and to be honest unsettling in fast mountain driving. The back end of the car was not nearly as stable. I had the alignment checked and tried various air pressures with little difference.
Here is the link to a PDF of Porsche-approved tires for the 986-996.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessori...sanddownloads/
Of course everyone is free to do and buy as they wish, but I'm sticking to these in the future.
BMW has a version of the N-rating - they have the star rating for their recommended tires. In some cases it really matters, in most it does not. For example, the new 5-series got lots of complaints when it launched due to tire variability issues causing vibrations - this is consistent with Ralphs comments. I would hold that it can make a difference, but does not always - it all comes down to the particular tire on a particular car and the production variability.
In the case of the DWs, thay are not BMW star rated, or Porsche N-spec rated. Having said that, I've driven the 1M, M3, M5 (new and old versions) and M6 on those tires and never experienced an issue on the track under high speed stress conditions at the BMW Performance Driving Center. I would also hold that much as they're not star rated, the PDC wouldn't use them if they didn't perform.
I have had Continentals on my 996, I currently have Sumitomo HTRZIIIs on my 996 and Continental DWs on my M3 and have had no issues for spirited street use.
That's funny. The tire could care less about the weight bias of the car. Were your statement true, Porsche wouldn't need an N rating for the Cayman, Boxster, Panamera, or Cayenne. So long as you don't exceed the design weight per tire, it is totally irrelevant. You're feeling the effects of either a) an inferior tire or b) suspension wear. Considering the number of complaints about the DW on this thread, I suspect option a.
Actually I suspect that the extra weight of the engine swingin' about behind the rear axle has a direct effect on tires and grip. But what do I know?
I also think that N-Spec ratings as relevant to Porsche models other than the 911 is just marketing BS.
I actually bought the DWs from the dealership as they had a good price. The tech wasn't exactly thrilled about my choice, and sort of gave me an "I tried to tell you..." when I brought the car back concerned about the change in handling dynamics.
The only comment I would make about handling dynamics is that you would expect tire construction to make a difference to dynamics (although, I would not expect weight distribution to have a huge impact on tire performance, other than contact patch changes that would be factored into the overall design of the car and not change from tire to tire on the same car), as the construction of the sidewalls and the inherent mechanical properties will have the biggest influence on traction and feel through corners.
I spent some time as a supplier of raw materials to the tire industry and will tell you that the construction of tires is incredibly complex. Is the design of an N-spec tire different from a non-N-spec tire? I would not expect so as you can buy both for any given tire, but what I would expect is that the tolerances of the tire construction would be more tightly controlled on an N-spec tires and as a result you pay more. Does the control of tolerances matter for most people? Probably not, but in some cases it can have an impact, as illustrated by the example I gave on the issues with the current generation M5.
N-spec tires are the subject of lots of discussion among Porsche owners. Many other performance car manufacturers recommend specific tires. For example, General Motors performance tires carry a TPC SPEC number, BMW recommends tires with the five-pointed-star symbol, Mercedes recommends tires with the MO spec, etc.
People get really worked up over this issue. Personally, I don't believe that it's marketing BS. That being said, I also don't believe that your car will explode or that you'll spontaneously crash your car if you don't run N-spec tires.
There's much speculation about the difference between an N-spec tire and a non N-spec tire from the same manufacturer. In most cases, the tires will look identical to one another, aside from the N-spec designation on the sidewall. Manfucturers of tires as well as the cars that use them are very careful not to disclouse exactly how tires have been modified. It could be that the rubber compound is slightly different, even though the tread looks the same. The side wall stiffness could be different. The general public simply doesn't know.
Car manufacturers work with tire manfacturers to develop tires that allow the car to perform in a specific manner. The car manufacturer defines the desired handling and ride profie, and the tire manufacturer develops a tire to meet that goal. There is testing of various tires, and the end product is a car and tire combination that performs within the desired goals of the car manufacturer. That's all it is. The N-spec guarantees that your car will perform within the specs that the Porsche engineers desired when the car was designed.
If you change your tires to something other than N-spec, then Porsche can't guarantee that the car will perform the way that they intended. It might perform
better
, and it might perform worse (this is a subjective thing in many ways anyway). The same thing can be said about something like a suspension modification. It's not what Porsche recommends, so they won't stand benind it. That being said, many people prefer a modified suspension and feel that it performs better than the OE suspension.
My point in this whole thing is that the N-spec only guarantes that your tires will perform the way Porsche wants them to perform. What's more important is the way that
you
want them to perform. If you want all-season tires so that you can drive in light snow, then buy them!
I've used many N-spec tires on my Porsches and many non N-spec tires. On the 996 C4S, I haven't found a tire that I like better than the N-spec Michelin Pilot Sport PS2. If I could find one, I would buy it - with or without the N-spec designation.
Porsche designs their cars with very specific design criteria in mind. Controlling which tires are used on the car allows them to keep the performance in a specific range. There's nothing wrong with going outside of their pre-defined range if that's what you choose.
Peculiar weight bias of the 911... So, does that mean that EVERY FWD car on the road needs to run N-spec tires? You know, they have a very peculiar weight bias, with most of them having a lot more weight resting on the front tires then 911 has resting on the rear tires, and those tires are a lot smaller than the ones on 911.
Porsche marketing BS.
If you are a race-car driver, then go ahead and buy the stickiest tire with the stiffest side-wall. You will replace the tires every 5k miles, but "because-racecar" argument is always valid. For 95% of 911 drivers, regular non-N-rated tires will be more than sufficient.
My point was that the tires don't care where the engine is located. Yes the engine location has a huge impact on handling and grip, the high moment of inertia and rearward bias make the 911 handle like nothing else. But that is regardless of tire choice.
One thing I would add to my previous post in the "N-spec vs. non N-spec" discussion is that for the vast majority of drivers, especially those who only drive on the street, the differences in tires will be imperceptible between good quality tires.
Wonder why Michelin SuperSport is not available in 285/30/18 ?
Michelin has been trying to make a "N" spec version for 2 years but fails to get Porsche approval. I suspect it is related to the flimsy sidewall. I was alarmed at this on my 1st set but with my faith in Michelin I bought them. The SS sidewalls feel squirrely on the car enough to bump up air 3psi all around.
I really wish they would expand the size offering. I believe that tire is standard equipment on several new Ferrari models. The new Corvettes are using them too if I'm not mistaken.
