What would you pay for a 2002 4S?

I was looking at buying a 964, but recently came upon a 2002 4S, which is kind of my grail porsche so to speak. It has 142K miles; but everyone on the 964 forum said that if you are looking for a a used porsche, you could do a lot worse than a really well maintained high mileage one. I asked the basic questions and his responses are below: #1 IMS and RMS has been done. Receipts are available. Car comes with complete maintenance records. #2 Back tires are brand new, front are in good condition. Seems like it might be a well maintained car - I haven't run a carfax or anything, but assuming it comes back with a clean PPI, what would you pay for it? KBB says 15K trade-in and high 17K for private party. Seller is asking significantly above both. Thanks!

$17-$22k depending on options, Carfax, and PPI.

That's a tough one. I've actually been thinking about this very question in the event that I decide to sell my 2002 C4S with ~132K on the odometer. A water-cooled Porsche 911 with high mileage is difficult to value. I wouldn't trust KBB. A car like that with higher mileage takes a very specific type of buyer, so their estimate may not reflect reality. I wouldn't expect a car like that to sell for more than $20K, and it could go for quite a bit less. It's really hard to say.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. He's been quite firm at 22.6 with a new front and rear brake replacement that he says will cost about $2,300. The problem is there's a couple 4S's out there with half the mileage selling for 26-29K. I don't think 70K should only contribute $4K of depreciation, even in a 12 year old car...

What is he doing with the brakes that costs $2300?! Personally I wouldn't give over $20k, and that's if the car is mechanically and physically top notch. I've seen a few C4S with under 100k listed for $25k or less. They sell quickly, but the deals are out there if you look and are willing to travel. From a value standpoint, with that many miles many people won't even consider the car. After you put more miles on it, even less will consider it. Combine that with a car that is still depreciating, and you may take a bath if you decide to sell it.

From another thread (C4S Values Tank) So, I'm back. Did some statistics on C4S pricing (not sales but asking price) from several sites on the web, like cars dot com, autotrader, etc. I did not use any ebay data. I do not have any data about what this model actually sold for, but one could assume a certain percentage under the asking price. I collected 61 samples between MY 2002 and 2005. Some interesting info came out of this very limited data set. For all cars, average list price is as follows (MY / asking $ / % diff per yr): MY 2002 $31,367 MY 2003 $33,043 5.3% MY 2004 $34,134 3.3% MY 2005 $37,616 10.2% this part was very interesting, here is the average odo reading per model year: Year / Avg. Miles MY 2002 66,672 MY 2003 66,171 MY 2004 63,240 MY 2005 57,266 (not a big difference) From odometer info, the following data falls out (odo reading / avg. ask price / % diff.): ODO <40K $38,775 ODO <50K $35,911 -7.4% ODO <60K $34,336 -4.4% ODO <70K $33,395 -2.7% ODO <80K $33,290 -0.3% ODO <90K $30,505 -8.4% Seems a manual transmission is slightly more desirable at 1% higher asking price. The following graphs show the trend in asking price based on model year and by odo mileage (if you are a buyer, try to stay at or below the line!): 2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

That's awesome. I don't see the graph, but get the message. 140K on any car is probably too high. I originally told him I was in the 16-17K range and he told me that if I could produce a 4S for less than 20K, he'd buy another one. Guess he's just in the clouds...

What is TOO HIGH mileage? Do you know that there is no difference between 80k and 140k miles on the maintained car? Low mileage C4S with 60k miles is a lot riskier than normally used C4S. Low mileage car is either never driven or driven short distances, neither is good for the car. If the guy was commuting on his C4S, and you have maintenance records then you have a great deal. 140K is a normal mileage for 12 year old car. There are cars here with 150k miles plus doing just fine. If you can get the guy to 18-19k take the car.

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140K is definitely higher miles, but overall condition is so much more than miles. I'm not saying they are not occasionally out there, but decent sub $20K 996's are much harder to find than you might gather from reading forums... Virtually every 996 I've ever looked at that was less than $25K, - even regular C2's -, were beat hard and put away wet. Some cosmetically challenged with really torn up interiors or abused exteriors, some with significant accident history, most with at least half-a-dozen owners and through at least a couple of auto auctions, almost never with decent service records... Many are likely going to be a money pits, especially if you don't do your own work. Not to mention if they aren't local, you have to add travel or transport cost, not to mention a much higher risk that the car isn't as represented in the ad. If somebody local is offering a MkII 996, especially a C4S, that has three or less owners, is fully documented, lovingly maintained, and cosmetically excellent for $22.6K, even with high miles, I'd definitely favor it over a $3-5K less expensive car that fits the category I described above. Better yet, tell him to skip the $2,300 brake job and settle on $19-20K. DIY rotor/pad/flush is super easy, and with new pads and rotors should still be less than 1/4 of that price.

value: priceless price: a meeeeeelion dollars :reckon: 140k on a beyond a well maintained car is IMHO more desirable than a lower mileage car without rigorous maintenance. Why would anyone sell a sub 20k 996 anyway? Just drive it until it dies.

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Dennis, I don't think I've ever seen your C4S, but based on your forum posts I'm guessing that despite the high miles it is almost all the things Porsche buyers want their cars to be... I think your voice mailbox would be full and it would sell instantly in the Denver market priced at under $20K.

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I usually agree with most of what you say, but this just isn't accurate. An engine with 140K miles is more worn than an engine with 80K. Every engine will fail when you run it long enough...they just don't last forever. An 80K mile unmaintained or ragged out car may be in worse shape than a meticulously maintained 140K mile car, but all things being equal, you'd be insane to take a 140K mile car over an 80K mile car. Doing so is just blatantly ignoring the fact that machines wear out.

I should have worded it more precisely, the wear difference between equally maintained 80k mile engine and 140k mile engine will be insignificant. Assuming timely oil changes and no detrimental events such as overheating or lack of lubrication, you would not see any significant difference inside those two engines should you pull them apart and inspect the clearances. With any 996 documented maintenance becomes a lot more important than miles at this point. If OP has fully documented car with 140k miles with every oil change and every major service done on the point, then it is a great deal for $20k or so. IMS and RMS are done, assuming that PPI comes through the car is GTG. Even if he drives the car the average of 12k miles per year, it will still last him for five solid years. I agree with you 100% that ragged 80k mile car will be inferior to the well maintained 140k mile car. And yes, if two cars were equally well maintained and priced at the same level, then lower mileage car takes the bid.

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I agree with the point you are trying to make. I had a 1991 Land Cruiser with 200k when I sold it, I'm pretty convinced it had another 200k in it. I had a 1993 Saab 9000 Aero with 235k, original turbo, transmission, no engine work, and still going strong. Maintenance is more important than age and mileage as cars get older. The one issue is the perception. My father in law thinks cars fall apart when they reach 100k, and there's a lot of people just like him. You have to be realistic about a more limited market come sale time, and purchase the car accordingly.

A engine rebuild is what? Around 15K? Suppose this car had a brand new rebuilt engine, what would it be worth then? I would say at least 30K. So, it is at least worth 15K . But the engine isn't shot. Lets say you put 8K a year on it. How long do you think that engine goes? If it goes say four years and 32K before you need a rebuild, then add four years of driving and fun to the 15K base cost. Seems to me this ought to be worth at least 20 or maybe 22 thousand. I am really curious to see how long these engines go. You always hear the stories about the air cooled and the 996 Turbo engines going 200,0000 plus and still not needing a rebuild. Can the maligned N/A 996 engine do the same? This one seems to have survived 142,000 pretty well.

FWIW, I've never seen a c4s with a clear title regardless of mileage for under $20k that was running in good condition. I don't think any of you have either. I've seen a couple with salvage or rebuildable titles from Capital Motorsports in Cali awhile ago but that's it. $22k IMO, sounds ok for a high mileage c4s if all the maintenance was done and int/ext condition is good.

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I agree with you on that. A project car with a blown engine is worth at least 10K. The engine actually running and in good nick makes it worth somewhere north of 20K regardless of miles.

If the clock says 140k but the interior, and exterior looks more like 50k and its passes a PPI with flying colors. I'd say at $20-$22k it's worth your consideration. Keep in mind though that you'll be faced with the same questions when time comes for you to sell it.

I think your location has a big bearing on how much the car would go for. In the Seattle area, the car mentioned in the original post would probably have an asking price somewhere between $22k and $25k.

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True, but how many have 142K miles? The thing that gets me (and why I would really like to see the "depreciation by miles" graph with a fitted line) is why a clear title nicely maintained 4S with half the miles is asking 27K, and this one is asking 22.6K. I think someone is off their rocker, given that Kalashnikov qualified his original statement. 4K is about 20% of 22.6K, so it's not an insignificant difference, but we're talking about such small numbers in the grand scheme of porsche ownership I just think this guy is asking way too much. I'm in the Bay Area btw, but if there was a huge arbitrage between regions, I'd be happy to quit my job and travel to exotic destinations buying porsches and selling them in Seattle

Also, does anyone put any value whatsoever in KBB?

This thread makes me feel sad about me getting my E46 M3 for a similar price It's a great car.. but it's no 911

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KBB has historically been the worst and most inaccurate when it comes to specialty cars or ones with cult following. When it comes to price, there is no need to try to analyze to that detail. You either are comfortable on the price or you move on and find something else. If a C4S is what you really want and can't afford more than the low 20's, chances are you might have a difficult time to find another one for the low 20's anytime soon.

The problem with KBB is that it doesn't take into account maintenance and repair costs. KBB is reasonably accurate for cars that are not thought to be expensive to repair. It is very inaccurate for a car like a 911 where repairs and maintenance are expensive. Few if anyone is going to pay much of a premium for a Ford Focus with all of its maintenance records and which just recently had a major service. But a lot of people will pay a premium for a 911 meeting that description. KBB gives basically the average selling price in your area for a car of similar miles and condition. It cannot account for maintenance. The KBB value of say a 2002 C4s with 60K in excellent condition is probably around 30K. But, that is the average. A car that has complete maintenance records, an upgraded IMS and has just had its 60K service is going to be more. One that has a factory IMS, missing records and is due its 60K service is going to be less.

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the low mileage one value is getting pushed down by other cars (including the 997) in the $30k range that are more attractive / have less of a scary factor for potential buyers /... For $30k you can get into a lot of newer & just as fast cars. the high mileage one on the other hand is getting pushed up by the fact that it's a Porsche widebody. Find me another car as sexy as a C4S <$20k, the list is probably going to be pretty short. It's like if you were selling a E92 M3 with 180k miles. You'd probably still be getting mid 20s because that's the only way to get into that body style.

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Funny, I almost bought an E46 M3 instead of my C2, but at the last minute I decided to go test drive the 911 because I hadn't driven one since I sold my C4S. About 200 feet into the test drive I remembered how much I love these stupid cars and bought the 996 instead.

Well based on the feedback most of you guys gave I told him GLWS and give me a call if he does come under the 20K mark. I really love the 996 4S, but for a few G's more I can get a 997 with half the miles in decent condition and come under the decade old mark.

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LOL, where have you seen a 997 in the 20's? And even more important question is assuming you found one, you gotta question what needs to be done or is broken that you don't know about.

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NO. I see it as a tool for a retail seller. I prefer NADA numbers.

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There's one for sale actually like 5 miles from my house. Grey C2 with 80K miles. Asking 29.5. Owned by a local doctor who also owns several other high performance cars, so I assume it's not a total POS.

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Clearbook ( www.clearbook.com ) seems to have the most accurate numbers, absent a Manheim subscription... e.g: 2002 C4S, 144K miles, good condition. They put it at a suggested private party list price of $24,300 with a projected sale price of $21,400. e.g. 2:, 2005 997 C2, 60K miles, excellent condition. Projected sale $31,400.

Cool. So a '05 with 80K miles seems reasonably priced at 29.5K, or maybe a little lower. Same vein, my 4S with the high miles is definitely over-priced versus clearbook and 22.6K is probably overpaying.

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I consider 29.5k to be more than just a "few" thousand over the $22k example you were looking at. I've seen quite a few higher mileage 997's in that range. It's not uncommon. But once again, what are you looking for? Are you married to a WB?

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It's funny I'm really not sure what I'm looking for. I drive a nice economical bmw 3 series that I bought 3 years ago, put 25K miles on and have spent a grand total of like $500 on repairs (out of warranty). I moved from SF to the suburbs, now have a garage and enjoy tinkering around with my car. I found a nice convertible 964 that appears to be in decent mechanical condition, but the interior is pretty much shot. I thought it would be a good cheap project. I did some quick math and turns out I'd be all in for around the low 20K's with a 23 year old car and a $5K bill looming down the road with a reseal. [seriously, just changing the tail lights is a $1,200 parts only project] I did some looking and since people hate the 996 it's really a crazy bargain compared to the 993 and the 964. I think people would look at a 964 with 140K miles all day long, but a 2002 996 4S with the same miles and the guy can't sell it for weeks (or if ever, considering he wants 22.6K). I'm not a fanatic, I'm under 30, and married so I don't have the luxury of spending a ton of time doing serious repairs, so I'll definitely be eating the big ticket items in terms of repairs. My rationale is newer car, same miles, same price - it's hard not to want a 996 or early 997...

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Personally, I would say a clean '05 with 80k miles is an absolute steal.

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If you're not married to a WB, there are several "crazy bargain" 996 NB cars out there which also would allow you to set aside a contingency fund in case something happened down the road. I wouldn't really call most 997's out there a crazy bargain for what you're actually getting(round lights, different interior).

Would you mind posting a link for the 2005 C2 for sale?

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That's encouraging to read! Maybe it's worth more than I think!

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The air-cooled cars almost never made it to 200k without some engine work. Many don't make it to 100k without at least a valve job or head stud replacement, the two of which are about the price of a rebuilt M96. They do, however, usually go 200k+ without splitting the case. They are fantastic cars, but not as "bulletproof" as some would lead you to believe. The 996TT seems to be different, as there are quite a few reports of them going 100k+ without any major work. I assume the GT3 would be similar, but they don't seem to accumulate nearly as many miles. I have seen multiple 997s for under $30k. They are typically 2005s with 80k-ish miles listed in the upper $20k range. The 991 is going to help make the 997 a much cheaper car.

There are multiple confirmed sightings of 996 TTs with over 200K without any major engine work. That engine seems to actually live up to its reputation. In fact, most of the problems people have with that engine are probably due to owners not understanding that you have to let a turbo warm up before driving it hard and cool down a bit before shutting the engine off. If you just get in the car and stomp on it without letting the oil warm up, you will slowly wear out your turbos from oil starvation. Same thing if you don't give them a minute to cool off and spin down before you shut off the car. Take care of the Turbos and do the proper maintenance and the 996 TT engine really does seem about bomb proof. And yeah, the air cooled people like to pretend the 996 N/A is the first 911 ever that had some catastrophic engine failures. Ah no, they pretty much all have had something squirrelly about them.

Even TTs are not without fault... Price out pinning the coolant pipes. Not too big of a job, except for the pulling the engine part. Figure about double the cost of replacing an IMSB/RMS. I love 911's, and would readily recommend whatever generation trips your trigger to any enthusiast capable of spinning his (or her) own wrenches. But to paint the 996 as significantly more costly or prone to engine issues than any other version of 911 is like watching the evening news talking heads speculate that somehow a 777 escaped detection and is sitting on a runway on the island of LOST... Sensationalistic nonsense.

Well let him know I probably am not going to play ball on his car. He wrote back and made a couple compelling points, but fundamentally, I don't feel the need to stretch for this one. If it had 100K miles, maybe, but lets be honest, it's a 13 year old car with almost 150K miles on it, which is a helluva lot for a high performance machine. Your guys' points about how the aircooled engines need major engine work prior to hitting 200K also worries me as I don't want to pay market price for a car and then have to sink another 10K into it just to keep it running. I might go for the 964 (or another 996) and roll the dice thinking I don't have much $$ into it or go with an '05 and call it a day...

What high performance stressed engines are you aware of that don't need a rebuild before 200K miles?

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I believe this is called.........Porsche ownership. Make no mistake, they are very well built reliable cars. But they are also high strung sports cars that can be expensive to fix. ALL of them have this potential. Don't want the risk of potentially expensive repairs? Buy a Camry.

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I have too, just not in the mid 20's for a 997 which I thought the OP was saying since he indicated a "few thousand" more over $20k. But I still stand by the fact that a 997 isn't a "crazy bargain". Something with the same drivetrain and chassis essentially(minus headlights/interior) for very low $20's for a 996 is a "crazy bargain" though. Speaking of, NHTSA just closed their investigation finally on cooling issues that were filed earlier. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...intVersion=YES

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M96 in 996.2 3.6 liters, 320 hp, red line 7k. HP/Liter is 88.9. Now, performance engines from ONE brand that get to 200k without breaking a sweat and some running great past 400k. J32A2. 3.2 liters, 260 HP, 6.9k redline. HP/Liter is 81.25. Own one personally with over 200k miles on it, valve covers never lifted. Still runs factory times. F22C1. 2.157 liters, 237 HP, 7.8k redline. HP/Liter is 109.87. Multiple cars with over 200k miles and no break downs AT ALL. Cars with 350k miles present original running gear with no internal work. H22A 2.157 liters, 200HP, 6.8k redline. HP/Liter 92.72. Way too many cars with over 200k miles and zero engine troubles. B16A2. 1.6 liters, 160HP, 8k redline. HP/Liter 100. Raced every day, multiple cars with 250k REAL HARD miles still going strong on original hardware. B18C. 1.8 liter, 200HP, 8,500 redline. HP/Liter 111.1. Multiple cars with 150k miles and original drivetrain with no work. C32B. 3.2 liters, 290HP, 7k* (not sure) redline. HP/Liter 90.625. Multiple high mileage supercars with no breakdowns. Resale value reflects the superior engineering of the motor.

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Honda makes some fantastic cars, but most of those engines were bolted into economy cars and sporty hatchbacks. Great cars in their own right, but not exactly a 911. The S2000 is an obvious exception, but is more of a Boxster competitor. The NSX is a modern classic, and was a 911 competitor when new.

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My point wasn't that getting 200K out of an engine is what I expect. My point was that this is a 142K engine that hasn't had an overhaul and if I'm not living on borrowed time, I know that in the near future I will need something major. If the car had 50K miles or 80K miles, the major engine overhaul wouldn't even enter into my consideration.

Engine aside, a 142k example unless taken care of by an OCD person will need other non-engine items potentially addressed(tranny, bushings, shocks, seats, interior bits, paint, etc). This in itself since we're talking about Porsche with the famous Porsche Tax, could add quite a bit more to the amount once all said and done. Kalashnikov, I had a B16a1 modded to produce 185whp out of 1.6L normally aspirated with the factory redline. I have the dyno sheet somewhere. Of course as typical NA B series, it lacked serious torque. So basically it was fast as long as I was driving by myself and not going on any inclines.

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Goes without saying. I don't think it's "called porsche ownership" buying a car that's going to need serious amount of work just to keep in it's current shape.

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It probably runs counter to your thinking if you were looking at a 2004 C4S, but you might take a look around at early 996's, specifically a 99. The 996.1 lacks some of the creature comforts of the 996.2 or 997, but the 99 has some reliability advantages (e.g. dual row IMS bearing). Also, cable throttle vs e-gas, and the LSD (option 220) was only available in 99. Opinions vary as to whether or not 996.1 prices have bottomed out, but there's no disputing that you get a lot for your money. In your target price range I think you could find a pretty nice car and still have a few bucks left over for the mod or two that'll really make it yours.

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My point was that you have to pay to play. The potential for expensive repairs exists with any Porsche, even a $5k 944. I would personally take a well maintained high mileage car over a neglected low mileage one, any day if the week.

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I hear you, but I'm not sure everyone would agree with you - I think it actually matters significantly by model and type of car. I've seen a ton of 80's porsches with 200K+ miles. That's a model/engine that I would absolutely agree with you on that maintenance supersedes mileage. However, if everyone is saying that your real life expectancy on a 996 water-cooled is 200K or less, I think you're prematurely digging yourself in a hole by buying a well maintained higher mileage one. You can change all the belts and ims bearings and water pumps that you want, but if precious few people have taken their engine cores past 200k, you're most likely going to have a bunch of new parts attached to a bunk engine sooner rather than later. It is what it is.

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It's easy to find examples of 200k+ Porsches from the 1980s, those cars are 25+ years old. Further, most of the 200k+ SCs and Carreras have probably already had $20k+ invested in major engine work. The air cooled cars wear out just like any other car, and in some cases they do so faster. There are examples of high mileage 996s out there, just not as many because they are newer. If you think these cars just dissolve at 200k you are sorely mistaken. Verify engine health via a leakdown test as part of your PPI and you will be good to go.

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You probably know better, but honestly I've seen one 996 with over 169K miles (it's for sale on here - I might actually go check it out). I've probably sifted through several hundred in searching. Don't forget the 99 MY can be a 15-16 year old car, with an average of 10K, you're already at 150-160K. I've seen 2-3 that were 150K+ Also, I've seen a fair number of 997's with 80-105K already.

There's some good examples on this thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...age-996-a.html

Went through that thread, and most people haven't broken the 140K mark. There were some mentions of sasquatches driving their 996's to 240K km though.

There is (or was 2 weeks ago) one of those violet pearlescent anniversary editions or whatever with something like 245k on it for sale on Autotrader. $20k.

And btw, I remember when the bug-eyed 911s were still cheap, and soo many of them had newly rebuilt motors, ESPECIALLY the 930s. Nearly every ad had a line that said "just had $30k dumped in the motor" blah blah. People forget. Just use good oil and change it. People act like the motors are no good at 200k. I wouldn't be surprised if you can still see the hash marks in the cylinders. Just put new rings and bearings in and you are good to go. You gotta remember that Porsche guys in general are **** and neurotic to a fault. Cars are meant to be driven, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen lower mileage cars break time and time again, while the high mileage, driven-to-work-every-day-the-last-10-years cars just keep on trucking with nothing more than standard mileage servicing.

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What makes you think that? "OMFG!!!! I just put a finger nail scratch on my newly painted caliper as I was cleaning the inner barrels of my wheels. HELP!!!"