6-point Harness & Stock Seats

I am installing a 6-point Sparco Harness with a Speedware Harness Bar. Has anybody used a harness bar and harnesses with the stock seats? Are there any issues with clearance etc.? What about the harnesses rubbing on the leather seats? I have concerns of wear and tear. Also I called a Sparco dealer and he said using the harnesses with the stock seats is not really recommended. I think he meant the shoulder belts could separate. I took this to mean your body would somehow squirm through the shoulder harnesses in a crash. However then I thought that a regular seat belt would be even worse and you never hear anything against those! Any opinions on this issue?

Lance I have used the 6 point harness with my stock seats. Did not really like it and I only used the 4 point because mounting the 6th would require holes and bring the belt buckle away from me due to the lack of proper hole for the belt in the seat like on a race seat. They held better for sure but I was still not wraped properly like on a race seat. When i installed the Evo 2's and properly installed the 6th point it made a huge difference in driving comfort and the way you are secured to the seat. If you have relatively narrow shoulders you may even experience the belts not fitting your shoulders properly. The 3 point stock belt if you yank and twist it will hold you pretty good while driving, dare to say almost as good as the harnesses with the stock seats. IMO think on getting GT3 seats to be able to properly mount the harnesses and you will see a huge difference on the track.

LanceK, I have a six-point harness, which eliminates some of the concerns outlined in the previous post. I have the stock seats and the B-K Harness bar, which aligns the shoulder harness nicely over the shoulders. My installer used padding to avoid damage from rubbing on the back of the seats. I only have had one instructor tall enough to have the seat far back enough to make contact with the harnesses. He was probably 6' 5". I'm 5' 10" and there is no clearance or rubbing problem. The advantages to having the harnesses for driving events have been huge. Safety of course. But also, you just don't have to put so much energy into keeping yourself in the seat. They say the harnesses alone will cut your lap times by 2-3 seconds. I find this is true in that I can concentrate more on the driving. Before, I had to set myself up for the turns in my position almost as tho I were playing tennis. You know: wedge my left leg and arm against the side of the car on left turns and so on. With the harnesses you are planted in the seat. The set I have clip out easily when you are done at the track. The submarine belt is anchored in 2 places down at the bottom sides of the seats. It does not come out so I slip it through the seat and hide it under the mat behind the front seats. The shoulder harnesses hide behind the front seats. I can also remove part of the harness bar so that I can use the rear seat. In this case the shoulder belts come out with the bar. By the way, what did you decide to do about performance upgrades? Hope this helps. Feel free to come back with any other questions. Regards, Mike

Sounds like I really need to get some seats huh... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ? I was considering Sparco Roadsters. They seem like a nice split between auto-x/DE and street driving and were recommended as such by the Sparco dealer. Any opinions or preference on this model or other Sparcos? SloMike....I have decided to purchase a B&M shifter and GHL mufflers which I'm in the process of ordering. The harness and seats I wanted after my first autocross a few weeks ago. Now I'm entertaining a dedicated set of wheels and tires for auto-x/DE, which made even MORE sense when my Dad said he had a trailer that could easily haul my car. Where does this insanity end?!?!.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong> Where does this insanity end?!?!..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It doesn't! It futal to fight it! look at me... I bought a race car Kim illustrated very well why I did not mount the sub belts. You can actually see through the link at the bottom of my signature (Rennlist albums) pictures of the harnesses when they were installed with the stock seats. Clearly not the optimum set up and unless you have felt proper strapping in like i have on my race car now you really do not know how amazing it is. A fellow Rennlister on the track told me that unless they are tight so i cannot take a breath then they are not tight. Sure enough a couple of laps and I still find myself tightening them up as they get looser. This is impossible to do with the stock seats. Huge difference that really translates to better driving and control. The Roadsters look like nice seats, I was thinking of doing the Sparco Milano's but they did not have the hole in the seat for the 6th point belt to go through. Just make sure that they have the hole for the sub belt. Finally another interesting and relative inexpensive option for dual purpose seats are the Recaro SRD's. They have the sub belt hole and they are truly dual purpose. Jim Morton reupholstered them in leather and they truly look fantastic! Here is the link to the thread: <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=008569#000000" target="_blank">Jim Morton's SRD's</a> Good luck! <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

DJ...I'm quickly finding out how addictive this can be and I've owned my car just over a month! Anyway, I'll probably look into some nice Sparco's as I think the GT3 seats are overpriced and personally not a big fan of the design of the upper back (too fanned out). The Sparco site says the Roadsters "Are not recommended for competition use". Does this mean they wouldn't be safe for track use or they just don't think it would be the "best" fit as compared to other models? The Evo's also look pretty good. Just to clarify, the holes for the sub belts are the ones you can see on the sides of the seat right?

No the sub hole is one and it is located in the middle front of the seat. To see it you take out the front cushion and this is where the 5,6th point belts or commonly called "sub belts" come out from. When you go to your Sparco dealer ask him to show you the sub belt hole and you will understand how it works and why it is so important. My advise is to try the seats and see how comfortable you are especially getting in and out of the car. The roadsters may not be competition safe for many reasons but not essentially not been safe for DE use. I doubt that to be honest. It could be the fabric is not treated with flame retardant material, could be the lack of side guiding holes for the belts, could be many things. It will all come down to many factors you have to thing: 1. How many events are you going to do. 2. Are you planning to do club racing with the car. 3. is the car your daily driver. If your car is a daily driver and occassional DE you could go the Roadster route although I'm not sure how comfy they will be on the long run. If you have future club racing in mind then invest from now on a quality great fitting racing seat. This by far will be the best option in any case for the track. You have to think of the possibility of taking in and out the racing seats before an event if the car is your daily driver. This is not difficult and it should not scare you. I'm not by any means mechanically inclined nor a great DIY'er and it takes me half an hour max to do each seat. Bolt and unbolt and that's it. Get the Sparco base and sliders and this will be a one piece in and out deal like the stock seats. And that brings me to the final recommendation for you. Since you are planning to use a harness bar, why don't you invest in a rollbar like the removable DAS or the factory one? Bear in mind that ones you are strapped properly in the seat in case of a roll over you are going to be held in place and at the upright position unlike a stock seat which may colapse. Also a harness bar again in case of an accident may not be your best friend in the car. A good roll bar with a seat back brace may save your life. Don't panic..Just be prepared for the worse! As much as it is fun and for the most part safe if you drive your own pace at the track, the possibility of an accident is always there so you have to invest to protect yourself as the car can be replaced.

DJ...Great feedback! I DO want to get a roll bar. It seems to make the most sense since it would do 3 things at once. 1. Place to mount belts 2. Place to mount fire extinguisher 3. Provide valuable rollover protection Problem is I haven't found a "bolt in" roll bar that I can be assured provides rollover protection. There has been some talk on the boards the the Tecquipment roll bar (assume what you mean by factory one) is not approved and/or recommended for track use because of the way it mounts. The theory is that since it bolts the the seatbelt bolts that the bolt could shear in an accident and then the thin flanges of the roll bar could push the floor of the car therefor allowing it to collapse. I don't think I'm familiar with DAS but maybe you could give me a link? I DID find one by AutoPower but don't know if it's "approved" or if it has similar issues to the factory one. I also emailed Brey-Krause (their stuff looks very efficient and no-nonsense)and they said they don't offer a rollbar. Maybe I'll look into the DAS. On a sidenote one of my best friends lives in Houston and if I can ever get my butt down there to visit him maybe we could meet up and talk shop.

LanceK, I went down the same road. After a couple of de's the first things I did were to get the harness bar and harnesses, track tires and the B-K seat mounted fire extinguisher. Then, the problem of getting the car to the event with the track tires came up. I use a shop which stores my tires, brings them to the track, mounts them, etc. the only problem is they don't go to all the events. So my friend and I have been looking into tire trailers vs. car trailers and a tow vehicle. That's great that your dad has a trailer available. It gives you freedom and independence. Also, if your car breaks, you have a way of getting it home from the track. After tracking the car for a while with the above, I started to do other mods. Most de instructors will recommend that you drive the car for a while with the initial mods before you start doing other mods. This way you can focus on improving the most important variable: the driver. I too, added the B&M short shift and the GHL exhaust and headers. Sounds like you're headed toward turning your car into a club racer. Enjoy, Mike

I think your roll bar concern is misguided (or at least I hope it is, since I have one). I would ask your freinds what amount of force they think would be required to shear the bolts attaching the roll bar to the seat belt attach points. I have had my bolts out a couple of times, and those bolts are aircraft quality and about an inch thick. They certainly could be sheared, but I don't think they are the weakest link in a roll-over chain. I would be (and am) more concerned about the seat rail bolts shearing or the seat back breaking (or both), which is why I am looking in to bracing the seat back to the roll bar (I think the SCCA requires this, BTW).

Very good thinking there Lance. the same questions hovered in my head when I was making desicions about the roll bar. To give you were i'm coming from I started doing DE's with my old 968 and then when I bought my 993 cabrio I was already bitten by the bug and had to make decisions like you do now. So after a lot of research and advise from this very board I ended up installing a DAS bar and the 6 point harnesses. Along with that came another suspension, sway bars and R tires. All the above mods where done with track and street in mind as well as ease of converting to stock in case i wanted to sell the car...When all was said and done I realized the need for the dedicated seats, but by that time I knew that I wanted to race so I bought a high mileage 993 coupe and turned my cab into stock. Although this fact made things easier in installing race dedicated parts and not have to worry about street, resale values etc still it took more research and after a lot of thought I ended up purchasing an Autopower Roll bar by luck on sale by a fellow rennlister, which mounts on the floor and the inner fenders. This bar I feel is the safest, it is approved for racing under PCA BUT on a street car it will create holes. If you do not mind about that I would agree this roll bar is great. You can also dress it with safety foam and top it with custom leather and it will look fantastic. you will loose the rear seat functionality but they are pretty useless anyway. The reason many opt for the DAS unit is because of the mounting points in a coupe which does not create other holes. So it would be removable. Removable is a figure of speech really as it takes two people to mount it and take it out, therefore a bit of a PITA. Still if you want to bring your car back to stock it will leave no scars to speak off so it is desirable. There is a very timely thread on the racing board debating just that. If the DAS is safe or not. Some have argued that with the proper bolts the bar will be safe and to be honest I cannot argue with experts. I also feel that if Porsche makes a roll bar it is tested and pretty much sure that it will do the job it was meant to do. Now if the PCA folks don't approve it I cannot comment, i will just say that Porsche would not want a liability on their hands for one of their products so you can draw your own conclusions about it... Maybe for a race its not suitable but for DE's I see nor reason not to be safe. Again don't let that sway your decision, make sure you talk with the supplier that will sell you the roll bar ,porsche if I was you and decide. This is the thread that is going on right now: <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001120" target="_blank">DAS Bar thread</a> The safety roll bar from Porsche you can buy it from rennlist Sponsor Gert at <a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">www.carnewal.com</a> which i highly recommend as a vendor and have purchased most of my stuff from him. The DAS web page is here: <a href="http://www.das-sport.com" target="_blank">DAS website</a> Regarding transporting the tires to the track I use very successfully the Michellin Pilot Sport Cups which are streetable and a fantastic DE/race tire. I would recommend learning to drive the socks off your car on street tires first and then look at R tires. The learning curve this way will accelerate greatly and you will be safer as you get plenty of warning with streets before they let go. When you reach the point that you shave off chunks of street tire everytime you go out then you are ready for the R's. Before that i would also recommend a set of good coilovers which will leapfrog your track performance. Finally there are vendors who sell a trailer to pull with your 996 on the track and transport tires and the tool box. Who said the slippery slope is not too steep? Just take one thing at a time, a good roll bar, seats and harnesses are a great start and adequate mods for sometime before you plunge for more.. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

I use my car for de's. I have the stock seats, a B-K harness bar and 6 point harnesses. Am I hearing you guys right that you feel this is no safer than just using the seat belts? Thanks in advance for any clarification. Slodrivingmike

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by slodrivingmike: <strong>I use my car for de's. I have the stock seats, a B-K harness bar and 6 point harnesses. Am I hearing you guys right that you feel this is no safer than just using the seat belts? Thanks in advance for any clarification. Slodrivingmike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Mike, this is my humble opinion. I feel that the factory has performed tests with certain parameters for the airbags, seat and belt strength, positioning etc. When you add belts that are not properly anchored, fitting as they should etc, you alter the dynamics in a case of an accident. The reason FIA approves certain things and combinations only is because of that. I do believe that if something has to be done to improve safety or at least keep the same dynamics it should be done properly. When you use the harness yo strap your self in it is not the same as the stock belts. Think of your position relative to the roof with stock seats and 6 point belts and without a bar where the roof will go in case of a roll over... One reason for example that on PCA the seat back brace is mandatory is because a few years a go there was a fatal accident. The driver had an accident, the seat sheared the front floor bolts from the floor, tilted to the back and as the driver was still strapped on the seat it snaped his neck... The back brace welded or securely mounted on the roll bar now will help keep the seat bolted... In the same fashion a harness bar will do nothing but hit your seat with upredictable results, that is why it is not safe to mount the harnesses on the harness bar. Again think your seating position straped in without a roll bar. Chances are the belts will work, the seat will stay where it is and you are going to be in an upright position a few inches if any from the roof. Without a roll bar the roof may cave in and you can imagine the results. With the stock belts you may crouch a bit avoiding the impact. I maybe wrong but that is the way I see it. I'm not claiming to be an expert or something. These are thoughts i share with all of you from the track experiences I have over the past 2 years.

What should I do to remedy my situation? Should I get a roll bar and race seats? Which roll bar do you guys recommend? Which seats? Would the GT3 seats be safe? Thanks again, Mike

Mike, If I had a 996 and would be in a one car do it all situation I would trust the manufacturer for the roll bar and seats. Porsche with its engineering in my book is a safe bet to have their products tested and tested before they expose themselves to liability. I would think that the Porsche roll bar and GT3 seats would be great and safe for DE's. A vendor like Gert would be able to answer more technical questions since he sells the factory originals. Good luck!

DJ...the thread on the DAS bar shows how involved this subject is. I guess some authority needs to make a real world and Engineering based decision. QUESTION: If you have the Bose sound system how does that affect the Autopower and DAS bars? If so how? I believe I read somewhere that depending on which bar you use there is a difference depending on whether you have Bose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong>DJ...the thread on the DAS bar shows how involved this subject is. I guess some authority needs to make a real world and Engineering based decision. QUESTION: If you have the Bose sound system how does that affect the Autopower and DAS bars? If so how? I believe I read somewhere that depending on which bar you use there is a difference depending on whether you have Bose.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Dont really know about the bose system. Dont forget that I have a 993 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> No Bose for us! Regarding your observation about someone to make an Engineering based solution I agree, however again I feel that we have underestimated the factory solution which to me should be a very safe and reliable one. If the factory makes a solution with the mounting points that it does then it should be safe. I just cannot see that they created a rollbar without testing and putting it out like that...

I would tend to agree about the factory roll bar. However I get a little nervous when I see some of the Porsche "Accessory" Catalogs that have things that seem must for "show". I would imagine something like a rollbar would be tested and intended for and used by enthusiasts for protection. But we've all seen examples of guys running around with Harnesses etc. because "It looks Phat". I hope Porsche NEVER caters to that crowd. Anybody know about conflicts with either the Autopower or DAS rollbars and the Bose sound system?

hey, KIM. what are you doing on 996 board??? stay in 993. how else am i going to bad mouth your car???

All rollbars and cages that are bolt through tabs at the ends of the main loop to the seat belt attachment points are not legal for PCA club racing. Any roll bars or cages that do not required drilling and welding on a 993 or 996 are not safe. You can read the details from <a href="http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/newsletters/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/newsletters/index.htm</a> and look for 2003 - Volume 2.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong>QUESTION: If you have the Bose sound system how does that affect the Autopower and DAS bars? If so how? I believe I read somewhere that depending on which bar you use there is a difference depending on whether you have Bose.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Lance, The subwoofer for the Bose in the 996 coupe is located behind the rear seats. The subwoofer must interfere with the rear mounting. I erroneously bought the BK bar for the coupe, where the recommended bar for the coupe with Bose is the bar for the cab. I am awaiting delivery the new appropriate bar. Just wanted to put in something I learned about the anti-submarine part of the harness as it relates to the regular seats. With the BK bar, with the 6 point Schroth harness, the anti-submarine belts attach to the same points as the lap belts of the harness, then it goes underneath you to the buckle. You end up sitting on part of the submarine harness. This puts the restraining point behind you, and there is no lengthening of the anti-submarine since there is no cushion to compress at impact. All this is just as I undertand it since I do not as yet have the BK bar nor harness. They should be here in a few days. I can post pics once I install them. I assume the Bose system will dictate the kind of roll bar/cage as well. It is reasonable to assume one should get the roll bar/cage that fits the 996 cab. Ditto with the harness placement and regular seats, though I think you should get GT3 seats if you are getting the roll cage. The only reason I got the harness bar and keeping the power seats is that the C4S is still my frequent if not daily driver. My kids still want to sit in the back on occasion, and the BK bar bar is easily removable and remountable. I suspecth the roll bar isn't too far in the future, though. Along with track suspension, track tires, trailer, tow vehicle, removal of heavy useless items like the subwoofer......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . Hmmmmm. It may be better just to get a spec Miata or something.

Ahhh Yesss....It is a sickness isn't it? I'm starting to be really torn between just doing a shifter and mufflers and going all the way with harnesses, rollbar, seats etc. It's funny what you say about the Miata. I just bought my '03 C4-S a couple months ago and part of me thinks I should of bought a 993 or a two year old 996 and just modded it the way I like without feeling apprehensive about modding a "new" car. Oh well.....I'm gonna go pretty easy for now. Then if I find I'm doing enough auto-x and track time at the end of my lease I'll either keep my current car or find a used one that I can feel more comfortable playing around with. Either way I'm having a great time!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ZBlue996Kam: <strong> Any roll bars or cages that do not required drilling and welding on a 993 or 996 are not safe. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">While they are not approved by PCA, how can you make such a bold statement? And safe under WHAT circumstances? Any hard data please to back up your statement? Do you think Porsche would be selling unsafe equipment?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong>Ahhh Yesss....It is a sickness isn't it? I just bought my '03 C4-S a couple months ago and part of me thinks I should of bought a 993 or a two year old 996 and just modded it the way I like without feeling apprehensive about modding a "new" car. Either way I'm having a great time!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Heh-heh-heh . That's exactly how I feel. I've now done about 11 days of DE in 7 events in 12 months of ownership. I actually felt guilty the first few times about tracking the new car. Fun triumphed over guilt, and now all these evil thoughts are coming in. The last instructor I had actually stated I'm ready for some mods. On somedays, I've actually looked at and priced used 911's, 944's, Z06's, Supra's, RX7's. On other days, I've actually wished something would go wrong on my car, like the exhaust or suspension, and give me an excuse to get more track directed parts. Reality has a certain way of getting in the way of daydreaming, though.

DJF1....I believe ZBlue's words are PCA's and not his if I'm correct. Check out the link in his prior post and it goes through some of the language.

Palting, I have the b-k bar and the 6 point harness. You are correect in what you say about the mounting points, etc. of the submarine belt. Regards, Mike

DJF1 I was putting words from the club racing site. There are more accidents in club racing than in DE in general. The tech guys in club racing would have seen more crashes than the regular DE guys. I would trust the club racing tech in what they say regarding safty devices.

Well I race for PCA club racing and I'm not going to argue that the PCA stewards have only our safety in mind. I guess they would have to be overly cautious because accidents do happen more frequently on the races than DE's but still I need to see scientific data regarding this. And still the PCA approach is not 100% scientific like major manufacturers that test and test their products. The PCA techs simply do not have the money, resources and time to do this. For example one of them told me about a safety devise requirement that while this addition has caused spinal injuries on a couple of drivers, the lack of it has caused a death in the past. So ofcourse they would take this approach. Now does that mean that this new safety devise is proven never to cause another death? What I'm trying to say is that how this issue should be handled is to say that welded roll cages are safer than the bolt in ones. Now if a club chooses to accept only the safest by all means but that does not mean a manufacturers product like the Porsche roll bar is unsafe. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Gentlemen: Just a quick note here about using 5 or 6 pt racing harness with the stock seats and their integrated headrests,....... I am a Schroth Distributor and the Company is quite specific about their harnesses NOT being approved for seats like these. These are carefully engineered and thoroughly tested on all manners of seats: separate & integrated headrests as well as seats with holes for shoulder harnesses. Schroth makes no mention, nor offers any additional strapping that would keep the shoulder harnesses in place during an accident. One reason is that it interferes with their Anti-Submarine feature. We will not sell, much less install these specific products unless the OEM seating has been changed to approved types. There is some liability on our part, if we did so. Hope this helps someone.

Wow. That puts things in perspective. Thanks, Steve. I got your site on my list now. Looks like I have to add GT3 seats on my future list.

I am totally dismayed by all of this. I have Sparco six point harnesses, the B-K harness bar and stock seats. I wonder whether Steve's comments apply to the Sparco belts. As noted earlier, the submarine belt mounts at the sides where the lap belts attach. Is this different than the Schroths? I'm with Palting, but it is amazing how many people are doing de's with harnesses and stock seats.It never occurred to me that this is dangerous. Thanks to all for alerting me to this problem. The education on this site is invaluable! Regards, Mike

Hi Mike: I no longer sell nor install the Sparco's so I cannot comment about their installation recommendations or safety suggestions. I can tell you that Schroth is VERY safety conscious and is quite specific in this matter. Integrated headrest seats are not approved for use with any Schroth competition harnesses. I can further tell you that these products work very well when installed as the Schroth factory specifies, and several of our clients have had the unfortunate luck to have "tested " them. Safety is one area that I cannot make any compromises about as the health and well-being of our customers and friends are our top priority,..... Without them, I do not exist. Lastly, I've seen many many problems with harness installations in people's cars at DE's and I am shocked that these are permitted. Many Tech Inspectors lack the knowledge and experience to spot these issues. Like everything else, Caveat Emptor Sir

Are the GT3 seats considered to have integrated headrests?

Hi Colm: Since the GT-3 seats have slots in them for shoulder harnesses, those are just fine,.... No worries, Sir.