We Need Engine Cores! A rash of huge failures leaves our core bank "Bankrupt"!

We need any Boxster/996/997/Cayman engine core we can find. We have had a run of 7 engines that were so catastrophically compromised that nothing could be reused. I expect the next 5 to be grenaded almost as bad as well. If you have 1 core, or 100 cores we pay cash at fair prices and make the process simple and quick. Drain the oil, throw it on a pallet, print 3 forms and affix to the pallet and our truck comes to grab it after you've been paid. We desperately need 3.2 cores and 3.4 cores. They don't have to run, price paid is dependent upon the core and what the failure is. We don't care about mileage. We'll take anything except 2.5s, but we'll even take those at the right price. We also buy random parts, like crankshafts, IMS assemblies, crankcases and etc. Email [email removed] if you have a core to sell and she will get the details to me and start the dialogue. DO NOT PM ME HERE! When everything you see looks like this, you need cores!

You should also take out an ad in Panorama and Excellence. 2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

Nice scary pic(as to imply that all like engines suffer the same fate)...way to advertise at the expense of the owners here...boy and girls, the subliminal message JR is trying to convey is that all M96/M97 engines fail and you should send yours to fl@t6 ASAP(in case you are too slow to reach this conclusion on your own). However, this is nothing new, it's simply JR's standard OP. It has gotten very old IMO. JR, if M96/97 engines failed as frequently as you claim, why are you not overun with cores???

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://i62.tinypic.com/30uxwlg.jpg

We have a ton of cylinder head and ancillary cores, as they come on the complete engines we often have to source to rob crankshafts/ crank carriers/ IMS assemblies and crankcases from to repair all the blown up bottom ends of these engines. We have had a rash of connecting rod/ bolt failures and when they occur it takes out the entire crankcase assembly in most cases, as illustrated above. This week we have disassembled 3 engines from customer's cars and all 3 have been a complete waste inside the crankcase, we have one more to tear down today for the next batch and I expect it to be the worst of all. It came apart at 7K on the track, instantly! The good news is none of these died from IMSB failures. This is what we have to look forward to:

[QUOTE=Flat6 Innovations;11149898]We have a ton of cylinder head and ancillary cores, as they come on the complete engines we often have to source to rob crankshafts/ crank carriers/ IMS assemblies and crankcases from to repair all the blown up bottom ends of these engines. We have had a rash of connecting rod/ bolt failures and when they occur it takes out the entire crankcase assembly in most cases, as illustrated above. This week we have disassembled 3 engines from customer's cars and all 3 have been a complete waste inside the crankcase, we have one more to tear down today for the next batch and I expect it to be the worst of all. It came apart at 7K on the track, instantly! The good news is none of these died from IMSB failures. This is what we have to look forward to:[Quote] Now that I have your attention, care to answer a question I previously posed to you regarding one of your prior photo bombs??? In that instance you chose to ignore my question but I'm sure many here would love to hear your explanation. In the photo in question, you insinuated that a certain oil type would cause sludge in our engines(M96/97 engines) yet you failed to explain. Claims of widespead M96/M97 sludge, I'm sure, would be of great interest to many members here and I am sure many on here would love to hear your analysis regarding this issue. HERE IS THE THREAD IN QUESTION: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=43930 Also, you love to give us RLers anecdotal evidence of your engine failure claims...care to back them up with empirical evidence???

Empirical evidence is the entirety of what we gather as researchers with these engines. Sharing it isn't free and we gather it for ourselves. I was more free with it when we were the only guys tearing into these engines, but today educating RL means educating those who want to learn things and use them against us, too, unfortunately. I spend a ton of money every year to learn new things and thats not given to me, R&D comes out of MY pocket. What leads to sludge in these engines more than anything are the prescribed oil service intervals, especially in hot climates, which experience has proven to be too long of a service interval. The car that the pics illustrate in the other thread was a 99' 996 and when it was new it had a 20K mile prescribed service interval, these have dropped over time and thats because of scenarios just like that one. I hate M1 oil with a passion, but the only thing is does do is keep an engine clean. I wish it didn't even have one good attribute, but it does shine with cleanliness and MPG too. That said, this is a thread about me looking for cores, its not about oil and I have said all I am going to say about oil. If you have a core, thats fine. If you don't lets discuss other topics in other threads that are dedicated to those topics. No thanks for the hi-jack.

Typical...more BS!!! And BTW, you've hijacked more than your share of threads here...

Thank you. Did you have a core to sell?

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I agree with this. Maybe resurrect the other thread related to sludge as that would be more appropriate place. Jake, you think your previous students are buying up all the cores?

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No, we can find cores, but the issue is what ails them as its the same issues that our other engines have suffered, at least lately. The stuff comes in bursts, we'll have a few months of timing chain failures, then a run of intermix, then a run of broken rod bolts/ crank issues and then some back to back IMS failures. There's no rhyme or reason to it, either as the engines come from all over N America to us with the issues, not just one region. Finding good cores is the problem, junk cores are abundant. Its driving us to have to manufacture even more components, like crankshafts and IMS assemblies. Hell, if this keeps up we may have to cast our own blocks, but that will take years to evaluate before we can use them. Good thing the mold and match plates are already done.

ebay has a core without heads for $2000 in Ohio. I used the search Porsche engine 3.4

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I saw it.. Thanks! Craigslist and EBay are where we find some, but it's also where we get ripped off from time to time.

Did anyone ever see the motormeister video? They looked to have hundreds of cores. What happened to those?

This is from a current thread about metal shavings...IMS...etc. First post from the user: "I’ve been lurking here for a while as well as a few other Porsche forums. These threads make considering a 996-911 purchase really challenging. I’ll be in the fun car market in a few months. If I do buy a fun car in the near future I’m planning on keeping it until my kids put me in a nursing home. The idea of buying a car with 30 k miles with a glass engine is unsettling. The high cost of replacement is disturbing as well as knowing it could fail dramatically at any moment. How do Porsche owners get any sleep? It almost sounds like the best approach to 996-911 ownership is to buy a high mileage 996 drive it until the motor shatters, send it to Jake, wait a year then voila, a fun reliable sports car. But, if a car made it 150 k miles maybe that car will make it to 300 k without dramatic intervention. If you buy a car with 30 k to 60 k miles there might only 2 miles left in it but the entry cost is let’s say $10,000 over the one with 150 k miles. The additional $10,000 entry cost is wasted on an unreliable motor, it would be more cost effective to spend that money on a robust rebuild (remanufactured) engine. But a car with higher miles is going to have other problems, it’s going to need some love and $ over and above glass engine replacement." And now this thread. JR...when eagles are silent, maybe parrots do begin to chatter, just as your signature says, but parrots do seem to repeat the same thing over, and over, and over....

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Creditors have to be paid..

So what exactly is your accusation? Did you have a core to sell?

This is the type of nonsense post that leaves me to stop coming to Rennlist. Jake - congrats on co inventing the IMS solution. But it seems as the IMS failures are in sharp decline as more people have retrofitted the new bearing, or are on replacement engines, you have to obviously find a new revenue source. I get that - you're a capitalist, not a non-profit. But I really do tire of your posts where you make KrazyK look like an optimist. You purposely use words like "tons" and "rash" etc etc - I don't know if you know this but they are alarmist in nature. Let me be clear - I have 100% confidence that when someone has a damaged engine - you are the best in the business. But some of what you post is clearly inflammatory, alarmist, and used to generate the hysteria that fuels your business by getting the people most affected by the 'marketing' to come and do a ton of preventative work that my never have been necessary in the first place. Signing off.

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We currently have a 13 month backlog for reconstructed engines and a 4 month repair backlog and that remains a constant. That said, I may have invented the IMS Solution and many other things, but these items are not sold by my company. I developed them for use in my engines and then have worked with LN Engineering to sell them to others, so manufacturing them for our engines makes sense, and thats how we get the benefits, by not having to deal with manufacturing or stocking just so we can have the units for the engines we create. There's no revenue stream there for Flat 6 when these items are sold to other shops or etc. Think as you wish, but the assumptions are off base and completely inaccurate. When you have 4 engines in one week with the exact same failure and the exact same collateral damage, thats a rash. I ran out of sugar to coat things with a long time ago. Did you have a core for sale?

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And I guess that's the other thing - you keep saying things like how you're booked 13 months out, and that you've got transporters full of cars coming in every day etc etc, yet you're able to take in member cars here at a heart beats notice. Also how come just 3 or 4 of those hundreds of customers post here on Rennlist or Renntech? Are the others not big enough enthusiasts to post here? Again, you are a free enterprise, and you exist to generate profit. I just wish you didn't do it in a way at the expense of scaring enthusiasts from M96 cars, and degrading current owners experience.

Tick tick boom.

Ok, I am bored at work and generally try not to get involved in these discussions, but since I got nothing else to do. First, a relevant post: Those motormeister cores have to be out there somewhere. From the video it looked like a lifetime supply. Did you try to call the creditors, authorites, and lawyers involved? I bet they would rather have cash than parts. Second, an unrelated post. Gentleman we are adults, not children (I hope I fall in line with the adults, but at times I am not sure). We should be able to read the posts and make decisions for ourselves. I had the same metal in oil after IMS change problem. Jake and LN got involved through an inadvertent post I made and I was in contact with them. It prompted me to do more research with multiple other sources and I got the same story from all the experts I could find (as an aside it amazes me how much free advice experts will give - they really should charge for it). I am in the process of getting a rebuild. For financial and time reasons I am going with another shop, but I learned Flat 6 and LN are not out there trying to be inflammatory and create business, just trying to help. In reality they saved me $10,000 for free. If people disagree with someone for God's sake I wish they would act like adults not kids. There are ways to get your point across without sounding so snarky.

Why do people get all upset. He has every right to post to wtb cores. Leave it at that instead your just bumping a thread. The fact is that there are a ton of these engines out there which get older by the day. So there is bound to be lots of them failing now but still low percentage compared to how many haven't.

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Hey this is the internet and Rennlist nonetheless. However I do agree. Also on the tick tick boom post, was that in reference to a motor blowing up or a certain individual? After all we're all humans and it's sometimes hard to maintain your composure after being beat down so many times.

Because I also own a storage facility where I have 2-1/2 buildings full of Porsches being held. I have often thought of opening all the doors on the "cells" at the storage facility and walking car by car down the line "interviewing" the car and what landed it here, but guess what that would do? Create the same non sense of failure accusations thats already occurred in this thread. Why, because out of 2-1/2 buildings full of cars, TWO of the cars are here electively for our work. We can accept a car that we may be able to save without a full reconstruction, because it may be able to be saved without a 13 month wait. In Mike's case, thats not looking to be the outcome, though as its already been diagnosed initially and is awaiting invasive diagnosis before moving on. There are times where we believe a repair can be done, but the owner either chooses to spend the money toward a full reconstruction, or they walk away from the car. In those instances it leaves holes in the repair calendar where we can turn the work around quicker. Heck this months e turned around two different intermix jobs inside of a month, just because of a hole in the repair schedule that we didn't plan for. Its because we very, very seldom ever receive forum posters. I ask them if they are forum members and most say no, don't know what an online forum is, or they say they just lurk. Every now and then someone is on a forum, but its not very often at all. When someone does post, it just creates animosity like other posters here have already accused in this thread, acting like the posters are not real. Perhaps those customers of ours don't like the way we are treated here and don't want to get flamed for supporting us? Any of you guys have cores? If not, thanks for at least helping me keep this at the top of the page all morning long! Much appreciated!

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No. By and large, if you look at the posts who have had positive experiences with you - most everyone is supportive and I've never personally read a post where someone accuses the poster of being a marketing plant. Again - I reiterate that if you have an engine problem, you're one of the best sources to get it resolved. The problem I have every right to express - is that I wish you wouldn't market with such an alarmist tone that it degrades the M96 platform ownership experience, and scares off other potential enthusiasts.

Jake... put down the coffee and back away from the keyboard. Unless you just start giving away repairs for free some will always question your motives. Know that the vast majority of us recognize your good intention and understand that you are also a businessman. Just let it go.

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That was Mr Raby's tag line for his ads a few years back.

I have much more to gain if no one is alarmed. When alarmed people will act and apply preventives, when blind sighted, they ship us the engine. Its impossible to do this work at our level and see nothing but serious issues and NOT have this attitude about the engines. Trust me, I share one hell of a lot less than I could. Having developed multiple preventive measures and having researched common failures has HELPED the value of these cars. If there were no fixes for these big issues the values would be MUCH less, because no one would buy them. I was once contacted by 60 Minutes about this topic, after their Cameraman's Boxster engine failed at 31K miles. I told them HELL NO! If that would have happened you couldn't give away one of these cars. It was by far the most effective ad we've ever done.. It was the last ad that was ever published for my engine program and that was in 2009. We don't have to advertise engine services, the demand finds us, mostly through PCA or word of mouth. Hell, if we could handle more work I'd run that ad again... And to think, the ad agency told me that it would never work, because it was my idea.

I try not to get involved in this stuff either, but man, threads like this are what makes the Corvette Forum basically unreadable. My summer daily driver is a C6 Z06 and every other post in the Z06 section is a head rebuilder telling you how your engine is going to drop a valve at 7k rpm and lunchbox the whole deal. Flat-6, just my $.02... you guys seem like a great shop who does quality work. Folks will come without scare tactics. IMS failures are still a relatively anomaly from a statistical perspective, especially if replaced at clutch replacement intervals.

As the owner a 70k mile 996 C4S that is awaiting its third engine rebuild, I don't find Jake's posts "alarmist" in tone in the least; I would say "realist" in tone would more accurately describe them.

That is a lot of engine rebuilds for a 70k PCar....you must love that thing

We've been approached by more than one company to carry out Z06 development because of those issues. It's pretty clear that I can't be direct here and share my experiences at face value. I am a black or white type of person and always have been. I either have to find a way to add to these threads and help people without sharing my experiences or I'll just lurk.

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This is understandable with your line of business. It reminds me of my father-in-law, a retired narcotics/homicide detective. Everyone is a terrible person who cannot be trusted until proven otherwise. He spent his whole career surrounded by the lowest of the low and it eventually makes you forget about the good stuff.

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+996 Holy cow! I'm just contributing to all these useless posts that does nothing to answer the original topic at hand, hoping to make it to page 4 in good ole fashion Rennlist fashion that talks pages and pages about stuff not related to the original post. (holy run on sentence batman!)

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Nicest car I've ever owned, and not been able to drive I purchased it six months ago after the second engine blew. So, I kind of knew what I was getting into. I figured I would rather have a car at a cheap price with the engine already gone, then buy one at full price only to have an engine related failure down the road. I am a big Audi enthusiast, and love the C5 4.2 based cars. I have owned two A6 4.2s, an S6 (current) and an RS6. On my first A6 4.2, the transmission blew within six months. Cost me five grand to replace. On the second one, same thing... transmission blew within six months. This time around, I opted for a six speed swap. On the S6 and RS6, I purchased them both at low prices since both had tranny issues. After the first two A6s, I vowed never to buy another with a working transmission again. I love the cars, and think they are way undervalued. They just have a weak spot, the transmission. From what I can tell, the 996s are similar. I did a lot of research before I purchased the C4S, and found that the engine was really the only common weak spot. The way I see things, I would much rather buy one with a blown engine (which I did) and fix it "right", then pay full price for one that could potentially have a problem in the near future. Even if the end price is the same or more expensive, at least I have warranty on the engine, and know it is solid. Right now, I need cash so I have listed the C4S for sale. If it doesnt sell, Ill still end up fixing it. But, engines done right arent cheap, so it will be awhile unfortunately, since my home reno has drained my bank account dry. Jake, good luck with gathering some cores, and thanks for all the invaluable first-hand info you continually provide regarding these engines.

I don't have a core sorry. But I previously had a blown motor and if I knew then, before it blew, what I've since learned from Jake, I would not have taken that ugly $$ loss Keep posting the reality Jake.

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Thats the smartest thing for some people to do. They have to understand the nature of the beast and be willing to buy a car that they can't test drive, but buy much cheaper and then spend their money in a more valuable fashion to repair it. I've personally NEVER owned a Porsche that didn't need an engine when I bought it! My Wife wouldn't know what to think if I bought something that actually ran when purchased. I can't agree enough and thats the same thing that people consider (and know) when they decide to put more into the engine than what the car is worth. They know they can't buy another car this good, for the same money, because other than 2nd gear, nothing ever breaks with these cars. My dad was a Narcotics Officer for 30 years, after that he retired, then worked in a prison just to have something to do. He felt the same way and I grew up around it, thats where my mindset of "guilty until proven innocent" came from. When one is exposed to the same thing everyday and its all negative, then after a while this mindset takes over. Funny thing is, I never felt this way, or had negative experiences when the Porsches that populated my property didn't have radiators.

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My step-dad did exactly the same. Sadly, as I've grown older I've realized that he was mostly right. Furthermore, and I'm sure he never intended to teach this lesson, through him I learned the last person on earth I would EVER trust is a cop.

My dad was super trust worthy, but after being shot twice and taking a knife to the lung, he didn't trust anyone.

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Someone either abused your car regularly or did the first engine rebuild improperly. Consequently your version of realism is an exception to the rule. Plain and simple. There are thousands upon thousands of 996s and Boxsters running around with nary a problem. To ignore that and pretend that it's pure chance that a car has 70k on its third engine is to be completely irrational. You should be aware that the IMS is a potential problem on the 996 and check at oil change intervals for abnormal amounts of metal. At clutch changes, doing the IMS as well is a no-brainer. Beyond that, enjoy the car. Like I said, these threads are alarmist and primarily serve: 1. The business interests of the OP 2. To devalue an asset that each of us owns

Or increase its value by creating solutions to terminal issues. There's two sides to this argument. Most of the loss of value in these cars came from the economy, and nothing else. Why? Because the general person buying one of these cars has zero idea that these issues exist.

/yawn. There is one shop in the country that works on DESTROYED M96/M97 motors only. Per F6's own posts, they don't deal with PM or do regular work. They only deal with terminal cases. So it should be expected that the only view that F6 has is that of dying engines. The situation would be the same for EVERY other brand if there was just one shop that deals with TERMINAL CASES ONLY. It is common sense for anyone who understands what F6 does. If Honda had one shop that could rebuild the Honda engine, that shop would only post terminal failures and they would claim hunderds of grenaded motors coming in every week. Almost every other brand has huge number of shops that do the work, hence there is not a single focal point for failure. For M96/M97 that focal point exists and it is F6 shop. This is like having one hospital in the country that deals with dying people only. No ****, they will only have descriptions of dead and dying. Do you expect them to tell you about super strong athetes coming into their doors for some treatment? Motors fail on every brand. It is unfortunate that Porsche has such ****ty pricing and servicing costs for their motors. This has allowed few shops who have spent time and developed skills to create a monopoly on motor rebuilds. But this is the nature of the game in capitalism, so pay to play. Or, get the NSX and LOL every time you see a Porsche owner sweating at the stop light because "something made noise".

Very true. We had someone call the other day and ask about us doing a clutch job. When I told him that was not something that we do, he was blown away. He asked "are you turning away business?" and my response was "No, but we generally on;y do the things that are outside what a normal Porsche shop can easily handle". I wouldn't know what to do if we actually changed someone's oil and sent the car home!

Jake, I think if there were core engines owned by members of this forum then you would already know about them, call me cynical but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work that out. I sincerely home this thread dies a quick death (not helped admittedly by me posting), and we get back to the ‘Past & current cars’, ‘High mileage’ “great trip I took in my car” type threads!

I've been able to secure 3 cores from here today and have leads on at least 5 more, so something is working. It must be from all the posting stimulus this thread got this morning. There's no such thing as bad press, just ask Martha Stewart! :-)

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I think Flat 6 Innovations rebuild capacity should be noted when comments are made about being "booked for 13 months". Is that 10 engines? 20? While agree that good information is shared, it certainly has an alarmist tone to it and most definitely taints the perception of the 996. Knowing that I have owned multiple 996s, a number of friends have asked me about my perspective after reading these forum posts. In some cases it is enough to deter them from buying the car. Good for the rebuild business, not so good for resale. So you invented a unique automotive component that is being sold for profit by another company, but you receive zero personal gain from these sales?

Last year we produced 42 engines, all built by one pair of hands from start to finish, no mass production. Our maximum capacity is 45 engines, and none of them are stock, each makes at least 35HP more than factory and the majority make 45-65HP more than stock. We have the demand to do a lot more, but doing so would diminish the quality and care thats required to assemble and test each one as we log 150+ test miles (I do personally) on each car, plus 15-20 dyno runs followed by an exhaustive post-evaluation prior to shipping that takes another full day. Its not about volume, if it was we'd be building a couple hundred a year, which we could more than likely sell with advertising very easily. As it is things are less stressful and better for all involved, while turning out a product thats high quality, which is indicative in the fact that we've only had one warranty repair in the history of the program for a reconstructed engine. By no means should our backlog be used to judge these engines, because there's lots of places where you can call and get a "cookie cutter" engine delivered in just a couple of weeks, or overnight.

In related news, my neighbor, a neonatal intensive care nurse, reports she sees lots of premature babies. Jake sees blown up engines because he fixes blown up engines.

So isn't this creating a HUGE market for LSX V8 swaps? I think the definition of insanity is, doing the same thing over, and over again, expecting a different result? It just seems like with all of the catastrophic engine failures, my first choice would be scrap the 6, and swap in a V8� That's my plan anyway

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Personally I think the flat-six gives the 911 a lot of the character that I love. The LSX motors are a huge amount of power for not much money, I would personally love to drive a swapped 996 before passing judgement but it doesn't seem like a match made in heaven. It's hard to argue with over 400 HP for $10k though.

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The problem is by the time you are all said and done it is close to $30k, including everything needed for the conversion, and the labor to install it.

Let me produce some maths in here. Total 996's produced ~175,000, total 986's produced ~165,000. Total ~340,000 cars. Hypotethically lets assume 125,000 survived in USA ( I don't know the exact number of imports or how many of 996 were GT3 or Turbo cars. I am taking about 1/3 of the total production number). Lets take 1% of that number. 1,250 cars. If F6 shop gets maxed out at 45 cars per year and he seems majority of US failures then...he sees 0.036% of 996 and 986 cars per year. Do I need to explain any more about the numbers? Even if you use 10,000 as surviving number of 996/986 cars then per year Jake would see 0.45% of all cars.

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Thats my contingency

C'mon guys, you do realize that you are holding up Jake and/or Jake is also holding up Jake from actually working and extending that 13month wait into 1 more day of Porscheless life for some poor soul...

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dude chill...take a mydol

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A new LS3 crate motor is $7700 on Summit, I believe the entire Renegade Hybrids kit is similar. You should be able to do it for under $20k if you DIY. If you don't DIY then it's probably not a realistic option anyway, at least not from a financial standpoint. With that said, it seems that Flat Six does excellent work which doesn't come cheap, so I suspect that one of his rebuilds is comparable at a minimum. Yup. I've owned six M96 powered cars, only my current 2000 996 has a replaced RMS and LN IMS from the previous owner. All have been over 50k mile cars, all dead reliable. Is it a problem - yes. Is it overblown by the internet - yes.

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Hey it's all in fun. We managed to reach 4 pages of jibber jabber and not one post from a member stating they had a core for Flat6 so I'm happy that Rennlist doesn't disappoint once again.

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Closing in on 130K miles with my '03 Matt. I'm still planning to throw in the LN bearing when I do the clutch (also original) but it's driving so well right now I'm not in any rush.

Haha this thread made me laugh really hard. .... That should be everyone's last sentence from now on: Do you have a core to sell?

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there is a 996 engine on CL I sent you a link to, it has a cracked head, who knows what else may be wrong with it, I have no clue who it belongs too, heck wonder how much our 996 will part out for...

Does that mean I can buy engine accessories and intake manifolds from you for cheap?

How about you girls that get all butthurt when Jake makes a post put him on ignore and STFU?

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I wish we had bought a turbo, at least then I would not feel like these upgrades would be a waste of money (that is IF I ever get our running) , heck my motorcycle will out run this car from take off, so will our 2011 mustang gt, the wife now said she wants to go back to Mercedes, bummer cause she liked the car, but service is unsurpassed by our Mercedes dealer, she wishes she never bought this Porsche, she would feel differently if, one, the dealer would had taken ten minutes to see if there was anything they could do after letting it sit over a non related repair and she could take it back there as Hennessy was only a few miles from her work, Or 2, if she would had bought the newer one which I bet we would not have run into issues with not being able to get it repaired (let me add half way conveniently ) she does like to drive it the last time she did last year..... (im in the dog house too over this though <g>) (did this make pg 4? big grin)

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Am I the only one to see the irony in this post?

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b8_rdc PM me. I have a whole set of spare accessories taking up space. Sorry Jake, no core to sell...yet! But happy to provide the bump for you! Cheers, TomF

We have more accessories than we'll ever need.. And the same goes for heads! Scored several cores today!

There is a lot of passion with this post. If you ignore the drama for a moment, Flat6 is talking about a shortage of used parts (cores) which they use to make repairs. Here is something to think about; is the shortage due to a huge demand for used parts needed to repair many engines or is the shortage due to low supply of cores because many engines are still running just fine? I don’t think we will ever get the information to answer this. Certainly a lot of negative hype for the 996.

The good news is the engines are being brought back to life, to keep the cars alive. That says a lot for how good the cars are, if they were junk we'd have no problem accessing cores, and the cars would populate the junkyards. People do keep these cars going and I think they always will.

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That was my point; these are good cars or you would have no problem finding cores. The problem is the perception about the 996 relaiblilty. I am trying to sell my 996 and have been experiencing a lot of skepticism from buyers.

If you haven't done any upgrades, I can see how that would happen, but the good news is the buyers are educated, which is something we didn't see in the past. When we sell cars with upgraded engines that go in one week or less, generally.

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I thought scoring was bad in the context of the M96...

Yep! Tow of these I scored, have scoring! Those are the best, the rest of the engine is perfect!

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This is simple: hire a few more guys. Bring that 13 month wait down to 1 month! (taking resume's?)

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And lose everything I've worked to build the last 22 years in about 3 months. I've seen it happen too many times. Our purchasers seldom ever ask for engines sooner. Most like the extended project time to save money and we work it out in 3 payments, so it doesn't hurt so badly. The way we do this works. Fixing what isn't broken is the fastest way to kill it all.

That 3.4 on ebay is my engine

Which 3.4? There's a couple. Is yours complete or the long block?

The one without the heads. I just wanted to sell the case. I emailed you as well from solowa4

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Trendy, why you selling the 3.4? Did something happen to your 996? Now that it is getting warm, we should meet up soon. Especially since the car is drivable (somewhat) now. EDIT: sorry no core here to sell!

It's my old engine that I kept. There's a oil pressure issue and I pulled it before anything else happened to it since I just had the heads reworked. Didn't want all that other money wasted. I have to send the 996 to wright motorsports to get the cam timing tensioner replaced first.

Jake: how much on a 5 year option on an engine core? JK......but really

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Let me know when it goes there. I have a good friend who works for them, and I work right down the street!

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You could simply recite the laundry list of issues that the 911 has suffered from throughout the years. Valve guides, pulled head studs, snapped head studs, thermal reactors, getting MFI or CIS to work properly, A/C that isn't, exploding airboxes, chain tensioner failure, distributor belt failure, plugged SAI ports....... It's rare to see one of the "bulletproof" air cooled 911s that hasn't at least had a top end job done by 100k, at a cost that starts approaching a M96 rebuild. Decades later most of these kinks have been worked out, but owning a 911 has NEVER been a cheap proposition.

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THANK YOU! These are sports cars, not Camrys.

I'm happy to not be driving a Camry... For the second consecutive year, Toyota Motor Corp. won the recall crown, according to federal safety regulators. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Toyota recalled nearly 5.3 million vehicles last year. The Japanese automaker topped Chrysler Group, which came in second by calling back almost 4.7 million vehicles. Overall, automakers recalled almost 22 million cars last year, the NHTSA said. That was 34% higher than the previous year and the most since 30.8 million vehicles were recalled in 2004, according to agency. Toyota’s recalls included an October call back of about 803,000 cars, including the Camry, Avalon and Venza, because of a problem that could inadvertently set off an airbag or shut down the power steering on the vehicles. It recalled an additional 780,000 RAV4 sport-utilities and Lexus HS250h hybrids to fix a suspension problem. The automaker has a history of large recalls. It also called back 5.3 million cars in 2012 and was forced to recall millions more worldwide in recent years to address unintended acceleration and other problems. http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...#ixzz2tz0HFol1

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Porsche doesnt sell nearly as many cars to begin with, and if they did with the m96, they should be recalled as well.

Thanks for the revelation that there are fewer Porsches on the road than Toyotas. I appreciate the personal risk you took by being willing to step forward and shed light on this automotive industry secret. Whistleblowers like you make the world a safer place.

guys,i've been reading rennlist since i bought my 996,and allow me to say something,,,some people here worship jake and everything he says,,he is like a drug,,without realizing it, people like him and his followers are the ones bringing the market down for these cars,,,if we all talk about how nice our cars are and how much fun they are,,i bet we would all have at least some decent resale value,,in other words,others treat these cars like the nerd dating the supermodel,,,dont wanna touch it much so she wont leave,,c'mon,,its a car and we should have fun with it,,so f$$k the supermodel hard,if she leaves a least you have fun,and for the car,,if we all keep up with the maintenance and work on them we will have fun and joyfull rides,,i come here because is a lot of good helpful peoples with help,tip and good informations to fix our cars,but some guys just like to talk bad about these cars,some of them they dont even own one and others are just plain ridiculous,sorry for the rant but i've hold it for too long

I actually don't mind the heavy hit to the price tag of the 996. Made me enter one in sub 10k territory. So I guess I got a supermodel for the price of a $10 hooker...

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What he said +1

I paid $30K for mine 2 years ago, and I'd pay $30K today for what I've gotten from the car. It's awesome.

This place is filled with a bunch of cry babies whining about m96 based car resale values, instead of applauding the guys who are coming up with innovative solutions on how to address the weak spots of these cars, and keep them on the roads for many years to come. Well whiners, here are some facts: 1) The M96 based 911s values are NOT worse than any other mass-produced European car sold in the last 15 years. I have an 03 C4S, so I decided to pull up values for a handful of 2003 cars (based on Good condition with 80k miles) 03 BMW M5 MSRP: $70,400 $18,183 value is 26% of MSRP 03 Audi RS6 MSRP: $82700 $24,404 value is 29% 03 911 C4S MSRP: $81800 $27,897 is 34% 03 911 C2 MSRP: $68,600 $22,906 is 33% 03 911 Turbo MSRP: $116,200 $30,646 is 26% So, the m96 based cars depreciated significantly less than, not only the other Europeans cars, but much less than even the 911 Turbos (thats right, the ones with the bulletproof engines)! 2) These cars are not an investment. They are mass produced and dont have a cult following like the much lower production 993s. They will likely continue to depreciate as time goes on. If you own one, get used to it. "You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else." 3) As these cars age, things will continue to break. We need solutions to the common problems, not coverups, if the value of these cars is to be maintained. Forums like this should be for discussing common problems and their solutions, not for whining about resale value on a 12 year old car. NEWS FLASH, if we dont come up with solutions to fix the common issues, then these cars will become disposable and not worth fixing (as many of the European cars do after 12 years, or so). What do you think will happen to your resale then??? The guys coming up with these solutions should be given great respect. In the end, it is their efforts that will actually keep the series alive. I have read many of Jake's posts and watched him often be attacked and criticized. All I have ever seen in any of his posts are the straight facts from a person who arguably has the most hands-on experience with these engines than anyone else in the universe. I have talked to Jake on the phone, and found him to be nothing but helpful, informative, and straight to the point. I have never once felt like he was a Salesman. Talking to him, you can see right away that he has a passion for what he does, and believes in running his operation with the highest standards. I normally wouldnt waste time on a Friday night composing a lengthy forum post, but some of the posts on this thread are so ridiculous that I had to say something. So, if youre still worried that Jake's postings are going to cause your car to depreciate, I would say it is time to buy another car. Maybe trade it in for a 996 Turbo, as they seem to be undervalued

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Okay, you need to stop making sense. Begone!

I am too a unique snowflake!

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I have been to Jakes shop, and I have to agree with you 100% about him, as far as the value, buy a Mercedes e class and put 100+k miles on it once, its a 8k dollar car when your done. now I will add, as far as value goes, what is never mentioned say you have a 2000 cab and it has a retail of say 25k ok, say you drop 8k in it in repairs/upgrades and that car get totaled out, your typical insurance is only going to pay you that 25k, now there is where you might lose actual value, most ins companies will argue just because you did a 8k dollar engine rebuild last week, all that did was bring it to market value, and they are right.

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I can't blame them either, if I had taken five minutes of time before we bought our 996, I would not have bought it, I was looking at later model ones for the wife, buying a 25k dollar car that you might have to put a few thou up to a engine overhaul that costs what 6,8 k? just does not make sense. heck for that matter buying any car that is only worth 25k and paying 25k for it, that may need 4k put in it the day you buy it, is just silly, and 4 k would be easy to drop just in IMS upgrade, let alone anything else and one does not know if it needs it or not.... until..... Heck there are Porsche repair shops here that wont work on the 996 it is the day of the web, even the 70 year olds are now searching the web to research about a product before they buy it today young people are far more aggressive at it, I was digging into something one day with one of my kids, I forget what now, I was looking around the web and he was too, heck they came back with far more bad than I saw, I asked how he found it so quickly, he said quickest way, instead of looking for reviews and such, just put in "whatever your looking" for sucks huh? well try it once, search for whatever you think of and add a derogatory term. I never thought to look for something like that....

Mine Gott! "Even 70 year olds are now searching the web"? Who the hell do you think invented it? Dave Fox (North Carolina trial Judge, Bronze Star recipient, DOB: 13 December, 1943).

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good point! it just wasnt as popular when is was a usenet (uucp?) news feed, (yea, I remember those days, but thats about it<g>

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Your research got my attention...until I saw the $30,000 Turbo in good condition with 80k miles. I'll take two.

I agree with the theme of halo's post, but KBB values on any low volume car are a joke.

The Turbo values may be on the low side, but probably so are the other 996 values to a certain extent. I pulled them all from the same source, so they should be relative to each other. $38,346 is 33% of Turbo MSRP, which seems more reasonable. So even in that case, the m96 based cars are still even in depreciation with the Turbos, and less than other European cars (or at least in line with them). The bottom line is that the m96 cars arent depreciating any more than any of the other cars in their segment.

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In this situation, it might be better to go with "agreed upon value" coverage. It might cost slightly more but might be worth it for those 996 owners that love their car and have put a lot of money into it. This way your guaranteed a certain amount payout if it should get totaled.

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Well Stated! Well stated!

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The beauty of building your engine the way you want it is, if the car is totaled you simply transfer your engine to your next 996, after buying it back from the ins. co. Usually stolen cars are recovered eventually also.

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That's pie in the sky thinking. What if you are rear ended and the engine is toast? Related to engine failure, if mine grenades the last thing I would do is put $20k back into this car. I would sell mine as a roller and put that $20k + whatever I could get for it into a 997. Sorry, but never got the financial "wisdom" of putting another 20 grand into a car worth little more than that.

halo,i agree with you,about jake ,he is a good guy,i have talked to him on the phone also,and he is really knowledgeable and nice,,btw,jake nice article in panorama,my point was all the bad press about the car,we are talking about 10 to 14 year old cars and of course they break and they are not an investment, but his post was about "we need engines cores",but as soon he posted ,some people start jumping about how bad these car are and if you start the car without dt40 your engine will crack,how porsches' are not unbreakable,that was my point and i agree if you can't take it, sell the car.won't be long before we see someone saying "my tail light went out twice,should i flatbed it and bring it to jake?lol

I'm still waiting for the IBF(intermediate blinker fluid) Guardian to come out. Only then can I sleep peacefully. I believe Jake is working on a patent as we speak.

So these 8 pages are pretty amazing - I am continually amazed at the Jake hatred and what people read into posts on the Internet. I bought my 996 and planned the day I purchased it to do the Flat6 innovation IMS solution. Did I have too probably not, but I planned to drive the car and insure it was reliable. Yes I considered other solutions, but I went with Jake because of his reputation. Man am I glad I did as part of his inspection he found parts of my timing chain in the sump. So he caught it before the engine blew. So he did an engine refresh for me and with his extra parts worked with me. A very very pleasant experience! He has the best customer service! When I drove to his shop, he has numerous cars waiting for engine work. I did not take his post as these cars suck, but rather in my line of work I need more cores. I am thankful he has spent his own time and money fixing this great cars and helping us keep them on the road. Does he profit from it? I sure hope so! He had the brains to solve the problems, and the ***** to go into business fixing our cars. Do I have more money in my car than it's worth? Yup, and I am terrified when soccer moms tailgate me in the rain in their minivans that are not worth $5k. However, I own a Porsche 911 and I love the car, and drive the hell out of it!

It's great to see these Jake supporters(a lot lately with low post counts) and Fan boi's coming out of the woodwork but let's be clear, none of us bash his knowledge, customer service, excellent shop facilities, and products. You guys are just rehashing things that everyone is in agreement with. There are other various aspects that some forum members have issues with though.

Getting the job done is my only focus. Always has been, always will be. Its the only thing that found us where we are. Too many companies in the Porsche industry are about image, fashion, and telling people what they want to hear. That works for them, but once they get in over their heads, the cars come to us with the engines apart in their trunks. Once upon a time we had an ad agency try to help us with some "image" stuff. At the first meeting the marketing girls said "We've reviewed all of your information, done some searches and etc, and we have a problem. Generally we are called in to make companies look like they know more, or have a bigger reputation than they do, and that takes creative inflation most of the time. You don't have that problem, and quite honestly, we don't know how to help you." I respected their overview, paid them for their time spent and we never met again.

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hhehe, just wait to you see trade in offer on a 2000 996 cab with 71k miles on it, for a 2011 Cab, there is definitely no trade in value on these cars! found that out today!

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Well some of us have a life outside of this forum instead incessantly posting thousands of times. Its just a freaking car. I think jake and LN engineering have done more for 996 and 986 enthusiasts than some the bashers ever will. Jake, ignore the bashers... I know many you have helped including myself appreciate your work and fully support your endeavors. Thanks.

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This can go both ways. Just think about it. Lol.

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Remember, the buyers will try whatever they can to bring down the price, unless these *well known* issues of 996 were already taken care of w/ the supporting documentations. It's just the way it is, kindda goes same with Ferrari 348 & F355 models. Despite the bad reputation and maintenance nightmare, they are old school dream cars for many car geeks and these cars get moved fast as long as priced reasonably, while some used 348/F355 aren't moving due to too ideal asking price. They have depreciated enough and established the bottom/baseline price. The price tag can fluctuate only upwards if the engine out service has been performed. I've seen 348 model between $27k - $32k w/ engine out service need ASAP, while price can jump ones with the engine out service completed between $43k + alpha. Back to my point, 996 non-turbo engines w/o these *known* issues addressed will be hard to sell as the buyers will try to use it against the seller. This doesn't matter whether IMS will ever cause the engine failure or not, the car society and online and hard-copy magazine articles talked about this issue numerous times and unfortunately it has provided a greatest weapon for the new potential 996 buyers and probably caused a worst nightmare for the 996 owners who want to sell theirs. Don't feel too bad, 955 Cayenne V8 turbo and non-turbo engines suffered from the coolant pipe issue, where Porsche failed to use the proper material to make these coolant pipes from get-go. Luckily Porche introduced the upgraded aluminum coolant pipe kit, which got them into a trouble and had to face a class action lawsuit, because they were selling these aluminum coolant pipe kit while keep producing MY 2006 Cayenne V8 w/ the plastic coolant pipes from the factory rather than upgraded aluminum pipes. Anyways, I see the same trend but much smaller magnitude, 955 w/o coolant pipes replaced will be asked to reduce automatically $1k off from the asking price. I know $1k is much manageable compared to IMS replacement solution, but the potential 955 buyers will use that against the sellers to bring down the price anyways. I can tell the potential 955 buyers all day that mine has been rock solid so far with the original plastic pipes, but guess what? that won't give a warm fuzzy feeling to them. Just my $.02

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ROFL so since I don't spend my life 'posting' on this forum I am clueless? You Sir are using very very faulty logic, what an ignorant statement!

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I had to actually Google ROFL. I guess I need to spend more times on these forums to learn the lingo.

I like how you ASSume things about me or make more than what is being said. When did I ever say low post count = clueless? Some guys have accused fictitious members getting setup in the past to bolster someone's agenda or image. I have not directly said this personally but I've read it from others post and this is the possibility I was eluding to. I was making a general comment and not directly towards you. So far the correlation I'm seeing here is that most of the "hardcore supporters" here, you included, has had some kind of engine issue or rebuild. For those that never experienced one, seem to be on the other side of the fence. I predicted it on page 1 and so far we're up to 8 pages and counting with no direct posts of someone actually having a core for sale themselves. I'm glad Jake was able to turn this thread around and find some engine cores regardless. Yes I don't have a life during this miserable winter considering my 996 is tucked away in my 10 deg garage. I can't drive it or work on it. This is my little break when im not having to tend to 3 toddlers.

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My two cents: perhaps think over your postings and subject headings a bit more. This thread heading could (should) have stopped after the first exclamation point, or simply said WTB: M96 Engine Cores. That type of simple expression associated with your operational reputation (sterling, by all accounts) would have gotten you all you needed. The rest of the thread heading is unnecessary and strikes at the core (bad pun, I know) of your customer base and the readership of this site -- people who, in general, love these cars. Many of your within-thread postings (not just this thread) reflect a similar tone and language. You, Charles, and a handful of others have contributed greatly to the health of the M96 fleet and our enjoyment of these cars on a daily basis. I would hope that your posting style could more closely mirror those contributions. That most of us are enthusiasts by nature means that we will seek out your products and services and spread the word for the benefits of our fellow Porsche owners.

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Perfectly said.

Funny thing is I posted this same text on 4 other forums and it didn't turn into an 8 page bash fest like it has here. That tells me what I need to know, but it took me 4 days to realize it. FYI- As stated above, look at the depreciation that the Cayenne models have seen as well as the 996TT and you will see that percentage wise they rival the M96 powered Porsches. The Cayenne doesn't have any significant internal issues in the TT model, and even the cylinder scoring in the S models isn't wide spread unless you live in Canada. The 996TT doesn't have any "notable gripes" but it lost value just as quick as the rest. If the cars lose value, fewer people will spend 20K on my engine. Trust that the values of these cars means more to me that it does to an owner, we've only dedicated a decade of our lives to creating solutions to specific problems that the engines that power these cars have. I have nothing to gain from making these values diminish, perhaps if I owned a dismantling business that would be a different story. I am very black and white, if something has a problem, it has a problem, and I feel inclined to lay it all out on the table, exactly as I see it. Its clear that those inclinations require some added discipline on my behalf, the good news is I will be starting on construction of the new Raby Engine Development Research & Training Facility in 3 weeks and I'll be busy welding steel beams together and swinging a hammer. Looking forward to it!

Just imagine what your 966 value will be today w/o Jake's time involvement and developing the IMS alternative solution. I stayed away as far as I wanted to be 'til started to read about IMS replacement solution, which got me back in the game. Think about it, why would anyone spend $$$ on the car knowing there is a known flaw and no alternative solution for it? Especially 996 cars more than 10yrs old? People here aren't blindly chanting for Jake, they are giving create and showing some level of respect to Jake for what he has accomplished, that's it, no need to elaborate more. $.02

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this is something no one had mentioned and is very true, its the same in any arena one works in a narrow market, and like it or not, the 996 is a narrow market compared to.... (insert brand here) just like my work, I have a narrow market, they are not being produced any longer and it is up to the value of the vehicle for me to keep making money, face it, the 996 is not an antique, or classic yet, and I wonder how many people have decided to just scrap one or part it out over 4-10k in repairs, I just got a trade in off on a newer one that definitely would not make sens to do if I have to put 4k (IMS repair) or more in the car) the car is only worth what 20-30k tops depending on what year model, cabriolet or not, and other options? I just advertised ours, and first response I got was "IMS bearing and RMS issues addressed " I haven't even looked up RMS issue yet.... someone has to love their car to put 20k in one when the car is only worth 20-30k for sure! Jake, thanks for your work and the time you have personally given me on our 996 Tom

There's more of this breed in the community than we ever thought their would be. With the cars being unlike their aircooled counterparts, we didn't know if the same trait of spending as much on an engine as the entire car is worth (and often times even more) would occur with the 996 like it did other models in the past. It has and continues to, at least in the numbers that matter to us to stay as busy as we want to be. But we didn't slow down, as soon as the 9a1 was released we sourced a car and dismantled the engine completely. Today thats already paying off, and will continue to as the 996/ 997 markets change over time. With the 9a1 I've learned a lot from the M96/ M97 and we just aren'd saying anything about our experiences, good, bad or performance oriented and I don't plan to. By the time others start to see the trends, we'll already have a product ready to distribute. You are one of very few that are on this forum that will ever see me in my own world here. Thanks for being a good neighbor :-)

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Funny how this was brought up. The members of Ferrari 348 forum also discussed about the same dilemma, does it make sense to spend $10k + few more $ grands for "while at it" preventative maintenance items. The major service is require every 5yrs or so, meaning it's not one time deal like spending $20k for a solid rebuilt 996 engine. $10k+ for every 5yrs or so and ongoing cost, meaning let's just say you spent $30k for the used Ferrari 348 and within 10 some years, the amount of money you spent for the maintenance = the purchased of the vehicle. Not to mention unreliability of other parts of Italian cars, meaning there are other parts that need you attention, ie, $$$. Some can argue, Ferrari is one classic example while Porsche 996 isn't, but heck, who dictates that? Does it really matter to you whether it's a classic car or not? It matters because what your heart is telling you, isn't it? At least for me it is, doesn't matter what others say about my cars as long as I like 'em in my way. Like what my boss (wife) says, why even spend money to buy a car that's more than 10yrs old? My wife is probably right, you wouldn't spend that money unless you really love that car knowing that you probably won't be able to recover that $$$ back.

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This would make sense if the failure rate was seriously high. There are many here, including myself, who bought their 996 knowing the "risk" (read that...low risk). I was willing to take that chance under the assumption that ALL engines will fail at some point. I did install an LNE bearing when I had the clutch done. My reasoning was for resale "potential" in the wake of the class action suit, not out of fear that the IMS would fail. I will be selling my car in the next few months to buy a 997. It will be interesting to see how many potential buyers even bring it up.

I need to find one of those 348s and get to work :-) They recover the $$$ back, because they don't sell the car. I challenge you to find a Raby powered 996 for sale. You won't.

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True that!

Prior to purchase of my low mileage '04 base Carrera last November, coming from British and American sports cars and ignorant as a stump about Stuttgart products, I hit the 'net for critique, driver impressions, and enthusiast magazine test drives of the 996. Somehow I entirely missed any issue with the IMS bearing (!) All the reviews were positive, even laudatory. The 996 was touted as a substantial step forward from its air cooled ancestors in every category but on-the-edge excitement...what to me sounded like rather frightening handling characteristics, something I could cheerfully live without. I've found this 996 lives up to every accolade. It's a magnificent tourer. Even my wife enjoys riding in it and my son-in-law has it out even now, the excuse being a date with my daughter. I learned about The Problems post purchase. Mine doesn't leak oil and I've now got the original IMS bearing on my desk as an expensive paperweight. I plan upon rowing through those six gears until I can't drive anymore (it was a 70th birthday present to myself). I do regret some other Porsche-ah (I'm learning correct pronunciation) owners of 996s and other models disparage my ride. Me? I think it's a hellofa car. Except for the cheesy cupholder....

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\we are in that spot right now, wife likes her 996, but really wanted a red one. if this were a Red Turbo cab, we wouuldnt even think about trading it off im sure in fact ours is at a dealer right now, and looking at a red 11 cab, thinking perhaps we could get it serviced if needed locally! but perhaps not..... she has her eye on a 12cyl sl600 tooo

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so what do you think of the 997? its a '11 he said 997.2? \and being at your place bsing along with you looking over our car, I had the rare opportunity to know you a bit more than just someone from the web, heck we have a lot of same interests too bad we dont have more free time, there are some great roads with minutes of me and one turn from you!

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you got a cupholder? cool, but my wife wont let me drink my mocha frape while driving her stick shift anyhow....

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I justt got my second reply from our ad, same guy thart asked the first time, I cant say yes or no, I just know a oil leak was repaired on it but here was his next reply to me typical of a CL buyer I know... but still, I told him BS, a few cars broke down, and compared to the amount built that is all that broke down... "On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:28:35 -0500, "John Chilton" <[email removed]>: > >DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION, THESE ENGINES SELF DESTRUCT >WITHOUT THE IMS BEARING CHANGE ! DEALERS IGNORE IT UNTIL THE >ENGINE GRINDS TO A HALT, THEN $ 20k REBUILD ! "

He's just trying to beat you up on price.

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Exactly. Wouldn't you if you were the buyer? or are you one of those who pays whatever the asking price? Just like anything else, 996 non-turbo engine Carreras currently fall into the buyers market rather than sellers market, there are tons of inventory available in the market, and the well known flaw in the engine system has been identified, whether you like to classified that as a well known fact or not, but that's dictated by the market not you. Just like stock, if a product has suffered from an incident, for an example, Tesla caught on fire after hitting unidentified object while driving on highway, Tesla stock went down the next day. And guess what? Ever since that incident, the lingering question of battery safety has been brought up, which made the current owners and the potential future owners of the Telsa nervous. Tesla had to do something to calm the market, they ended up offering 10yrs of warranty on battery system including the existing owners who already purchased their car under the different warranty contract years ago. Did they have to go through the lawsuit? No, it was a company good will, unlike Porsche who has abandoned the system flaw by playing dumb IMHO. Going back to your vehicle, unless you are willing to guarantee on the written contract that the vehicle you are selling would not suffer from IMS within ##### of miles and # of years, but I doubt you would want to do that, the buyers who are aware of IMS issue are expected to ask IMS questions, whether it has been replaced or not, that's a given IMHO. As I've mentioned earlier The sellers will try to get as much as they can while the buyers will try to buy down as low as they can, that's the fundamental of the free market.

tks12, Just respond to this guy with facts, at least that's what I'd want. If he doesn’t respond to that then he’s just trying to see if he can take unfair advantage, don’t worry about him. Either the IMS is a problem for him or not. Tell him what you have or haven’t done about the IMS. When I sold my inboard boat I had lots of people looking to see if I was in financial stress and trying to get the boat for pennies on a dollar. I just hung in there until a serious buyer showed up. When I start replying to "for sale" adds, if and when I buy a 996, I'm going to ask about maintenance records, accidents, IMS, RMS, brakes, and tires. If the answers aren't good I'm moving on or I'm leveraging price. If the car has a rebuilt engine would be an important sales point, better if the current owner know what engine enhancements if any are in the rebuild. A car with a Flat Six Innovations engine would draw my attention and I’d hope that it’s in my price range. I think I'm over the 996 issues but I have to decide if the 996 is that special to me or if the new 2015 mustang or a C6 vet will do it for me.

Of course.. But I never buy a car that runs, and thats not just limited to Porsches.

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Actually I just saw one last night on either Craigslist or AutoTrader. The ad even showed your signature on a certificate. I was not clear what work Flat 6 did on the car tho...

I'd like to see that link.. Its been at least 5 years since I knew of a 996 selling with our fully reconstructed engine. Was it an anniversary edition car? If so, I had one 996 that we had built an engine for, from your area that was crashed and the owner sold the car to his mechanic with our engine. I bet thats the same car or engine. I'll go look for it, I have busted some fakes out there, one guy did a damn good job, but his numbers didn't match my ledger.. Busted!

I wish I'd paid more attention to the details (where, what year, etc.). I was searching 996.1 ('99-'01) and basing my area from Phoenix, AZ. I did a number of searches and so I don't recall which site I was on at the time. I was even on Ebay for a few searches, so that's a possibility too.

I found the ad. It's on EBay. It's an '04, located in Tucson. It sounds like he's put about 25K miles on his rebuilt engine. He makes an interesting comment. He says "it uses a bit of oil as do most all 996's the check engine light comes on because i use 1/2 100 octane and 1/2 91 octane and octane levels change every fill up." I was under the impression that most 966s don't use much oil..... The seller is "drivekitty1234" if you want to search for it. I guess I don't know how to post links from eBay on a mobile device. And to be clear, I have no affiliation with this car or seller.

Thats the one I was thinking about.. I'll look up the IMSB serial # and VIN tomorrow to make sure that the car and engine are still married. Have no idea why he's mixing fuel, the engine wasn't configured for that or tuned for it. Very odd that this one popped up, I challenged you and you found one... I guess that means that my engines do actually exist, though no one here on RL ever seems to have one!

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yup, btw seems the rear main was the oil leak fixed on the car before we bought it, that was done at ellis porsche ill see what all else they can find out has been done on the car today, it is there right now. she's still debating on trading it on the red 2011, its certified pre owned, but I would still like to have a 2nd inspection done on it by someone.

Jake; Sorry for high-jacking this thread! 1. Assuming a stock '00 C2 engine with 90k miles, never touched, using M1 oil (Oops, sorry about that!); 2. Further assuming you do pre and post dyno checks for engines you upgrade; In your experience, grosso modo, how much engine power (bhp) depreciation is to be expected from that engine after 14 yrs (no range 2 excursion, not believed to have been tracked)? Would it be in the HP range of 250 to 275, 225 to 275 or any other range that you have analyzed/witnessed in your dyno checks? Much appreciated, Jake, merci! Martin

Most stock '00 C2s on our chassis dyno will make 238-245HP and mileage does't seem to hurt them.

Thank you, Jake! Interesting indeed but not surprised, really that there are less horses in the barn after that many years of use. Martin

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Jake's saying that mileage doesn't really seem to affect the power output of the engines. ~240 hp at the wheels is what you should expect from a 300hp engine after ~20% drivetrain loss.

Ah! I see! I stand corrected in a pleasant, positive direction! Thank you!

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doesn't 20% seem extreme for a rear engine/rear drive car?

20% is a rule of thumb, I'm not sure what the actual loss is on these cars.

Engines don't loose HP just because of age. If an engine runs good, it will generate the same power until something happens and makes it not run well.

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Actually, the practice of spending more money upgrading your car than it was worth when you bought it is very common except to brands where the owners are not known as DIYers/motorheads/(your favorite expression here). People love to throw the "ricer" label around, but you just have to appreciate the $$ that went into the build when you see a 1200HP Supra going down the drag strip... or an American V8 with a foot-high stack of blower and air scoop sticking out out the hood. I put at least $10K into my Hyundai Tiburon, and one of the guys I wrenched with back then had nearly $40K, with a built block, supercharged, meth-injected, monster that ate V8s at the drag strip all night long. People accustomed to buying new cars are unaccustomed to spending money on their cars, and for many people, the desire to get into a 911 means buying a car that's gone through a couple of owners. I bought my 911, in part, because every installed upgrade was the best possible quality, the previous owner had plowed at least $20K into the car, and there's nothing about the car I want to change because it's EXACTLY what I hoped to find. Had that not been the case, I'd be dumping money into it...and if replacement motors were cheaper, I'd also be busy strapping a blower to it for $$$...

You still have the Tiburon?

Or... you spend money on your car because it brings you joy and excitement as a hobby and you couldn't give two turds what the car is worth before or after your done modding it.

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+996 The true enthusiasts don't care. Same reason why guys mod Tiburons, Hondas, and such for BMW or Porsche money. At the end of the day people may see it as just another Hyundai or Honda and those are the people that will never "get it ".

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that was my point when I said people have too love their car to drop that kind of money into one that isn't worth that, to me, this car is just my wives extra daily driver, it is not one we would dump a bunch of cash over what it is worth and hope it doesn't get totaled out next week by some idiot texting and driving, now if it were a turbo 996 or a car she knew she wanted to keep forever, that is a whole different story.... but her cars get miles so she usually trades them around every couple years. (100 miles a day and several trips out of state each year adds the miles up quickly) building hopped up cars and bikes literally my entire life, I know exactly what one means by dumping more money into a car than it is worth because you love it

Again, Its hard to find a car this good for only the amount of money that it costs to repair the engine. I hear that daily.

Just wanted to post my experience selling a core to Flat6 Innovations. Last week I sent an e-mail asking him about buying my engine. This week I have a cheque and am depositing it. Fast 'n painless. Thank you!

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If that's all you care about I would have had shipped your core at my cost and Fedex you $100 in unmarked $5 bills next day by 8am. How much was the cheque for?

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If your use of cars is to buy and sell them, you should look at them by their market value. The primary cost will be depreciation and the cost of the transactions. A prior post showed that a 2003 with 80k miles depreciated by $50k, or $0.60/mile or $5k/year. Add in maintenance of $10k if you're (very) fortunate and the cost is $0.73/mile. A 997 will not have depreciation that high, and maybe we can say the cost is $0.50 - $0.60/mile. If your use is to drive them, you should instead look at the cost of the "service" they provide (driving utility + enjoyment). Here there are more options. If you get one where price is 30-35% of MSRP then depreciation has slowed a lot, and the primary cost is maintenance. My guideline is around $0.30 - $0.40/mile without any unusual expenses, out of warranty, and into "mid-life" where clutch, water pump, etc., are normally occurring costs at appropriate intervals. Now, say the engine blows up and a rebuild is $20k (as a round number). If you count on keeping it for 100k miles that adds $0.20/mile, which puts it right in the 997 cost/mile range. But the 997 has most of the weak points of the M96 engine that the rebuild largely eliminates. So for roughly the same price you get (if you get a Raby reconstruction) similar or greater power as the 997 and much better reliability for the long run for the same per-mile cost as a 997. Hmm, same cost, possibly better performance, long life.... And maybe there's even a sales price bonus later, who knows. This is also why I'm about to do a $1k timing belt/water pump replacement on a Honda with 210k miles worth approximately zero. That car has cost, over the last 80k miles, about $0.05/mile in maintenance.

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I didn't know there would be math on this quiz! Maybe I should have paid more attention to my Econ classes, but I would still cut my losses and "upgrade" to the newer car. The difference in retail value between the 996 and 997 alone makes more sense to me.

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I'm with you on this one, the first time someone drops 10 20k into their car and it gets totaled out and they get a check for nada from the ins company, they are going to wish they had never lost that other 10k they just put in the engine. they may have fixed our car, or found the issue I say may have lightly as intermittent as it was... we looked at a 2011 997 Cab, the trade in offer on this 996 was, well, pretty dang low politely speaking, considering they would have it back on the lot fore 25k, so we are selling off two of our cars now, and might get the '11 if it is still there, when these both sell, if not it might be a sl, the wife still likes the 911 series but it will depend on what we get the best bang for the buck SL or 911 cab,,, I told her she could get a "everyday" type of car, BWHAHAHAAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA Not NOW! not after haveing a Porsche and a Mercedes, a GT (btw her other car is a 2011 GT convertible mustang loaded to the hilt)

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That's happened a couple of times already.. Once on the track and once on the street that I know of. In one case the car was sent to the scrap yard after the engine was removed and was then fitted to another car that had a broken engine. It's still on the road. The other case found the car getting parted out and the engine sold for more money than the purchaser paid for it. He sold it to a customer of ours that didn't want to wait the amount of time that was required.

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did you arrange that? or did they find each other on a forum?

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eBay...

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You can buy a nice 996 for $20k today, drive it for a few years, and likely sell it for nearly the same price assuming that you took care of it. You can buy a 997 for $40k today, drive it for a few years, and likely sell it for $30k. The 997 is still very much depreciating, the 996 is beginning to bottom out. Maintenance costs for each are very similar. All things being equal, you will lose less money on the 996.

Dunno, it's just weird when people talk about trading up or upgrading to avoid costs or whatever, then recoil at actual numbers. Numbers have this way of deflating preconceived notions. Last I heard, Econ 101 had lots of math in it.

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It's easier to justify that 997 you WANT without actually looking at the numbers. Remember the gas spike a few years ago, when people couldn't trade in their SUVs fast enough? They were taking an absolute bath trading a 15 MPG SUV for a 30 MPG car. I hope they drive their Prius for the next 100 years because that's the only way the ROI works out.

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unless of course your the guy that buys the car at 20k has the unfortunate cost of 10k for engine replacement (or more) this is what would steer me away from buying a early 997 as well, that stupid IMS cost of protection..... it is my understanding that the '09 < 997 has solved that problem...

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Any Porsche can potentially cost you a lot of money. One of many reasons why looking at a car as an "investment" is foolish. If you change my earlier statement to a 997.2, then you're talking about buying today for $60k, selling in a few years for more like $40k. Not so affordable anymore......

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I find it interesting how people whine about a 2% chance of of $10k catastrophic failure vs. a 100% chance of a $20k depreciation. Let's walk through the math... your average cost: - 996 for $25k + 2% of $10k = $25.2k - resale in 5 yrs for $15k worst case = $2k/yr cost of ownership - 09+ 997 for $60k, you're super lucky and no issue, resale in 5 yrs for $30k (remember you're lucky), that's $6k/yr cost of ownership...

[QUOTE=tks12;11211338]I'm with you on this one, the first time someone drops 10 20k into their car and it gets totaled out and they get a check for nada from the ins company, they are going to wish they had never lost that other 10k they just put in the engine. That's the beauty of building the engine like you want it, even if car is totaled the engine usually survives & is easily transfered to your replacement Porsche.

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Damn, there's another pesky person involving facts in the conversation! What it says is that even if you are one of the unlucky few that has an engine grenade, it still won't be any worse of a loss than buying a 997 and eating the depreciation. I'll take my chances......

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If you can afford a newer car, you buy a newer car. There is no formula for the satisfaction that comes with upgrading. As for depreciation, we all know cars are almost never an investment.

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I hear this all the time. Of course no one ever get rear ended in a Porsche!

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well I didn't post that part, and agree with ya, no one ever gets rear ended <g>

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depreciation and loss one wins with driving the car for miles the other looses with instant loss such as a accident.... buy a car worth 40k not have to put 10-20k in it, it gets totalled you get to replace that car buy that car at 40k put 10-20 in it, it gets totaled you get a nice loss of 10-20 k depreciation does not happen that quickly, you dont go buy a 40k car today and it be a 20k loss that quickly (unless you buy brand new of course) in fact we are sitting at about a 20k loss on her stang, but there have been 70k miles put on it too, we lost 18k on her mercedes, but she put 100k miles on it before we sold it. when you drive a ton of miles these things may matter, be it mercedes, porsche, ford or a miata, which I would love to see someone try and get my wife to drive a miata <g> you would be far better off getting her in a old beatup pickup truck (shes a Texan though and likes to drive my one ton dually with 35's on it) but funnier yet is when a salesmen tells you , you dont want a Porsche for a daily driver, or a V12 Mercedes (now I about agree when they tell you that on a SL AMG, wow that has pricey maintenance all this is a moot point if your buying for another reason besides transportation, kind of like dropping 20k in a engine - trans for performance mods on a 1967 (insert your muscle car here) of course YMMV

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BTW your car looks great!

If it has to be explained to you, you'll never understand anyway.

Just for the record, I'm the guy who bought the $20,000 car and has to put $10,000 into the engine.

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Thanks for that! Also have the LNE Bearing, replaced the RMS, water pump, new clutch, AOS, serpentine belt, coils, plugs, new rubber all around, Pioneer Double Din with new amp, subwoofer and all new speakers, Fister D's, countless "little things"...and now karma will kick in and I will get rear ended by a GM car this weekend and get blown to smithereens...

Tracking quality in terms of percent was good pre WWII. For the automotive industry you should be talking about quality in terms of sigma or ppm, not %.

Wasn't this about needing more engine cores???

WTF is Sigma??? I know Delta but Sigma?

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im of the notion if I had to put a ton into our 996, I would either part it out, or plan to build it to run, I don't think I would build it stock at all then it would not be a daily driver though.

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delta sigma ? thats a sorority for poser know it alls

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Yeah, but thats never mattered...

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More like 12-15%....