Why don't all Porsche owners track their cars?

Before you all start flaming me, I'm not making any judgements or opinions. I'm just curious and want to know. We all have different reasons for what we do. I'm pretty sure most if not all of us bought the car for it's performance capabilities. However, it didn't take me long to find out that there is nothing on the street that can even challenge the capabilities of the car. Unless of course I routinely go at some insane speed on the streets and highways and endager everybody. Only on the track can one actually challenge the car, and appreciate the extent of it's prowess. I considered myself a good if not excellent fast street driver, and found out pretty quickly at the track that the car's limits were significantly higher than my limits. My only consolation and saving grace is that I have been progressing fairly rapidly up the ranks. So, back to my question. With a car that has such prowess and performance, why wouldn't you track it to appreciate it? No flames, please. I just want to know.

My 1992 LS400 has 240HP and can do 140MPH (so says the factory), the only time I remember it being consistently above 100MPH is between Browning and Cut Bank MT. I already have absolute confidence in myself as a (very conservative and defensive) driver and when driving the C4 that confidence is extended by the car's capability. Tracking it would only confirm what I already know. Sorta like asking why I didn't do aerobatics in my C210, don't you think?

Man would love to see in car videos of you on the track. I'm afraid to watch it for fear you probably hand me my ***** on the track. I love the track and hope others will share the same experience. Track season starting-woohoo!!!! Going April 6 with NASA at Thunderhill. Drooling as I speak!!!! Regards. Mike

I do I do.. just that the track is all of lagos' streets! Waz

I let you know after I start tracking in a few months. Probably they don't think it's much fun, at least not enough fun to make up for all the time and effort needed to track. Not everyone is as lucky as you, Palting, to have three great tracks about a hour away! (if I remember one of your previous posts correctly). I love to autocross, but I doubt if most on this board enjoy it.

I enjoy going to the track and go every opportunity that I can. However, when I go to the track I enjoy myself much more in my 944 turbo track car as opposed to my 996 street car. Something about the relative value of the cars and my fear of wadding up the 996... Why don't others go??? Well not everyone drives a Porsche for its performance capabilities, some bought for the image. Going to the track does get expensive after a while with the additional maintenance and increased wear on consumables (tires and brakes). As long as you have fun that is all that matters. I always try to talk my friends with performance cars to come to the track with me... I would love to get them hooked.

Sloth- a friend of mine is looking into the 944 turbo. Can you tell me what's a price range to look at, mods that can be done to increase track performance as well as street and are they high maintenance at all. Thanks. MIke

Tracking cars are very hard on them. As a rule of thumb, 100 miles on track is equal to 1000 miles on the road in terms of mechanical wear. Personally, I have trouble tracking my P cars because I cannot stand the wear and tear including the sand blasting of the nose. I bought a track car just for that purpose. If I sand blast it I don't car (repaint the nose every 2 years). If I bend it I don't care. If I could only have one car I'd probably track it but in my experiance, it's really hard on street cars to track them and more expensive to maintain them in the long run... Roy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6: <strong>Sloth- a friend of mine is looking into the 944 turbo. Can you tell me what's a price range to look at, mods that can be done to increase track performance as well as street and are they high maintenance at all. Thanks. MIke</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Mike... you got mail. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I have been to the track, and enjoyed it immensly, I just don't do it with my own sheet metal......... I don't own a track car for the same reason I don't own a boat. As much as I like fishing, I don't do it often enough to justify the investment. The fact that you would ask such a question reflects mostly on your enthusiasum for the activity, but you shouldn't assume there is anything more mysterious to it than that.....

yes, tracking is very expensive. having done 15 tracks days in last 10 months, i know. but once you do it, it's so addictive, it's no going back. those who think they can drive "well or fast" on the street, please think again. i THOUGHT i knew how to drive, when i got on the track, i realized that i am merely holding on the the str wheel and pray for the best. 95% of the drivers out there are merely praying, not driving in their cars. if you dont' like to drive fast, a few track days will make you a better driver as you learned how to "sit" in your seat and how to be defensive. wadding up an expensive P car is scary. i have a miata i track 80% of the time and the other 20% i flog the C4S around. just did that at laguna seca 10 days ago )

tracking is hard on cars? really? in 6500 miles, including 600 miles on track, i am on my 3rd set of front pads, 0

I track my 996 about 4 times a year and every time that I do, I get paranoid about all the rock chips that I accumulate on my nose. I have OCD and I guess it is not a big deal because I can just get it repainted. My first event this year is May 28th and 29th at Watkins Glen in NY. How do some of you bring your track tires to the track? Trailors, have someone follow with them, or just wear them to the event?

Mooty since you are in the Bay Area and by the way-love your C4S- there's a DE event by <a href="http://www.nasaproracing.com" target="_blank">www.nasaproracing.com</a> at Thunderhill April 5/6-I'm going on the 6th(Sun). Be great to see other Rennlisters : ). Regards. Mike

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO: <strong> 100 miles on track is equal to 1000 miles on the road in terms of mechanical wear. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">no wonder am getting so many deffects so soon! waz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6: <strong>Mooty since you are in the Bay Area and by the way-love your C4S- there's a DE event by <a href="http://www.nasaproracing.com" target="_blank">www.nasaproracing.com</a> at Thunderhill April 5/6-I'm going on the 6th(Sun). Be great to see other Rennlisters : ). Regards. Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Has NASA gotten more organized? I did one of their events at Sears Point in the past and it was a clusterf**k with 40+ cars on track at once (before renovation when the track was shortened!) and not very good seat time compared to waiting time.

i have never ran with nasa, so i can't say much about them. however, i have heard that they are a bit rough. i don't know if they provide good instruction. i usually run with tracquest, unlimited laps, and driving concepts. tracquest is usually 2 day events. they have the best food and a banquet after day one. they have very very good instructors and the organizer todd runs a tight ship, no one does crazy things like punting you off the track ) i started my tracking with them and goes to every one of his west coast events. most artilleries there are $$$, many ferrari's GT2, GT3 R or cup cars and numerous BMWs. unlimited lap is one day ususally. no frill, less good food, but much cheaper. younger crowd, less expensive artillery. but hunpin, organizer is also top notch. very safe event. driving concept is high $$$ but lots of track time. above two events do provide lots of track time, but my last two events with driving cocept i got 4 full hours. at one point i was on track for 56 min. straight. that may or may not be good! i whole heartily recommend any of the above three outfits.

I never ran with them but as you said they are known to be rough so I'm puttting on my Michelin Man firesuit : ). I'll let you know if things have changed or not Pete unless you are going. Will be in Group 3 (the usual passing lanes and maybe the slower turns as well-yikes!!!)Regards. Mike

Thanks for the replies, all. Thanks for the compliment, Mike. But I'm still just learning. I'm just happy to be progressing. I don't think I'm up to your caliber. Yet . C'mon, y'all. Lets go to the track!!!!! We only have one life to live!!! <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by mooty: [QB]i have never ran with nasa, so i can't say much about them. however, i have heard that they are a bit rough. i don't know if they provide good instruction. i usually run with tracquest, unlimited laps, and driving concepts... [QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, I've run with tracquest and unlimtedlaps before. My question wasn't about other West Coast track groups (there are a bunch of good ones) but rather about whether NASA had cleaned up their act.

I don't track my car because all the maintenance and effort is just too time consuming and costly. However, I do carve the canyons around the Malibu area every so often - challenging curves, great view, and it's free!

Can't afford to wreck-the-car/toast-the-engine

I'll echo what others have said about the financial risk, and wear and tear of tracking a high dollar car. I got so enthusiastic about driving at the track that I bought a lower cost track car that I view as (mostly) expendable. I put in a roll bar, race seat, five point harness and now I just go out and have fun. I can mod the car as much as I want, and I can drive hard for muliple sessions and then go home and park it in the garage until I feel like working on it again. I have run my more expensive car on the track occasionally, but mostly I just enjoy it on the street. Tomorrow is another track day and I'm all ready to go. Jim

Even so, I'm doing my first DE in April with Unlimited Laps at Thunderhill--consequences be damned. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> Cheers, Chris

cmoss, just talked to silver bullet, he will not make the unlimited lap at TH in april. however, i am thinking of going tho.

Mooty-is the unlimited laps event at TH on April18th(Fri)?. I mite be going. I never ran with Unlimited laps-which group will you be in if your going? Hey Jim Hodel-long time since I heard from you- how's your Viper doing : )? Hope all is well. Track season starting-yeaahhhhh!!!!! Regards. Mike

996flt, yes, UL at TH is 4/18 friday. i will run in intermediate group since i have only been to TH once and don't quite remember the track, so don't you punt me off T1 or T2. hope to see you there.

Greetings! I really should find some time to monitor this board since I have a 996. Anyway, Mooty (John Hua) told me that there was a discussion in this thread about DE events, including the TracQuest events that I put on. I wanted to extend an invitation to everyone to join us some time, as John does every time! Whether you're on the East or West Coast, there's probably an event that will work for you. During the next 3 months, Mid-Ohio is in April, Watkins Glen is in May and Road Atlanta and Thunderhill are in June. Info about all of these events and the rest of the 2003 schedule can be found on the TracQuest web site, at the link in my .sig below. You 996 owners on the West Coast will particularly enjoy taking a ride with me in mine. The engine is stock, but the suspension is nicely modified. It's a good bit different than a stock 996 and might give you some interesting ideas about suspension mods once you become an experienced track driver. In fact, you won't even realize you're in a Cab! If you are someone who bought your 996 because you enjoy driving, but you have been hesitant about taking it to a track event, I strongly suggest you try one, whether it's a TracQuest event or one put on by another group. Aside from how much fun you'll have, what you learn at these events will greatly enhance your enjoyment of the car every time you get in it. As others have said, even if you're in the upper echelon of ability among street drivers, there's a lot to learn at the track. I require my instructors to take students for rides in the instructors' cars during every instructor run group. Until you've done it, it's hard to conceive of how fast a car can get around a race track in the hands of a highly skilled driver. Which brings me to a second invitation. Even if you are still hesitant to put your car on the track, come out to an event to say hi and go for rides. Willow Springs and Mid-Ohio don't allow non-participant passengers, but everywhere else it's not problem, so I can put you out with some of the instructors (or me if it's a West Coast event, since I'll have my car with me). In the interest of total disclosure, though, here's a warning: prepare to be addicted after 2 laps (or less)! Finally, if any of you have any questions about tires, alignment, suspension, track driving issues, etc., please feel free to send me an email. I'm happy to help.

Back to the original topic, some people don't track their cars because they don't have the time due to family or other responsibilities. Personally I would love to track either of my car's but I have other obligations which are higher priority right now. I still love the performance of the car although I can't really experience much of it on public roads. There are things to love about these cars without driving them at 10/10's: the preciseness of the steering, the sound of the engine running up to red-line (ok, only in first and second), the quality construction, and of course the glorious curves of the body. Maybe I should have waited to buy the car until everything fell into place and I could track it at will. Then again I would have missed out on a lot of great times with the car in the meantime. So if I'm a poser because I don't track the car, I guess I'll aspire to be the best poser I can be.

Todd, Are you ever going to have a Traquest event in/near Texas?

2 young kids + business owner + wife = no time. But soon, very soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

That's cool,family comes first. I have even taken the kids with me once, but it does make for a long weekend away from the family. I wish PCA offered one day DE events, I have started to only go up on saturday and blow off the second day.I believe everyone should get out to the track at least once, it really makes you appreciate the engineering. Your P-car driving ability will also improve greatly even after one time at the track. Plus it's a hell of a lot of fun.

That's fairly close to how I do it, Doug. My wife and four kids come with me either the thursday night or friday morn of the weekend. We all stay at the same hotel. We spend at least one full day together, and we all sleep in the same place. They usually join me for lunch at the track as well. If you keep the family involved in your obsession, it becomes a family affair .

Eleven years ago, I did the old Porsche Owners Driving School with Derek Bell and Vic Elford. In that school, you used your own car. At the end of it, Bell pointed out that we all had driven our cars hard all day, and no one had a problem. He said these cars are made for just this kind of use. That was the day I stopped treating my Porsches as if they were something fragile. And started having fun with them. Track days will go through consumables - tires and brakes - much quicker than street driving, without doubt. However that does not mean you are being unduly hard on your car. At a DE or track day you do not have to drive at 10/10ths of your ability (which btw, for most of us is nowhere near 10/10ths of the car's ability). Go at the pace you find comfortable. You will be well within it's performance envelope. Never forget that the car was designed for just this kind of use. You will learn skills most people do not have. You will be a better driver. And you will find it all exhilerating. What's not talked about as frequently, but that I find just as rewarding as the track high, are the people I've met. They are car nuts just like me, and a ball to be with. Some of my best friendships have started at the track. If you're concerned about your car, sign up for the PDE two-day, or an event like it. You'll see those 996s, ones just like yours, are driven hard day-in and day-out, and are none the worse for it. And you'll discover why so many Rennlisters babble on and on about "the track".

Great post, Mike! I heartily agree. -Grant 88 944TS 04 GT3 waiter

Whoa, Grant, a GT-3?!!!! Very cool. Now that's a track car. Will you indeed track it? Or will you keep the 951 for the track? Please post your reactions to the GT-3 when you get it.

951S is the main track car, but I'll definitely do some laps with the GT3. It'd be a crime not to, right?

Not every Porsche owner lives close to a racetrack or wishes to subject their pride and joy to an autox, but there's no excuse for not driving in a highly spirited fashion on a country back road at every opportunity or finding yourself on a racetrack even once during ownership. What gets me are Porsches driven well below the posted limit on a clear canyon road. Who are these people?

Hi Mike, I ran the Viper a couple more times before deciding to subject my Z28 to the rigors of frequent track driving. Yesterday was a BMW Club event at PIR (Portland) and last week was a Porsche Club event. I think there is another Porsche Club event on April 25th There were about 80 cars overall at the BMW day and a considerable 'novice' group. We all had a fun and safe day with a ton of track time. The events in Portland usually run $100 which is a good deal as far as track time goes. Jim

Mike in Chi, that was a great post you hit the nail right on the head with that one. These cars are made to be on the track.

Lots of great comments in this thread. In response to various of them: To Doug in Texas: Others have asked me to run a TracQuest event in Texas, specifically TWS, but it's really hard to break into a new area. It costs a small fortune to put on a DE event, especially the way I do it (smaller, gourmet food, no sponsorship). At all of the East Coast venues I now frequent (Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta and Mid-Ohio), I lost money on my first event. In fact, I've only done Road Atlanta and Mid-Ohio once, so I'm still in the hole! People in the area say that they can get lots of people to attend, and they mean well, but it's real easy for people to say they will come, and it's quite another to get them to sign up. To Mike In Chi: Excellent comments. My only caveat to the others on the board involves your suggestion about the PDE (Porsche Driving Experience), which was formerly at Road Atlanta but is now at the new Barber track in Birmingham, AL. I'm not denigrating the program, but it's very different than the kind of events we're discussing. The two primary differences are 1) no instructor is ever in the car with you; they stand in corners and watch you as you go by, and watch in their rear view mirrors as you follow in a group, which segways into 2) all lapping is done ducks in a row fashion, in groups 4 or 5 cars, with an instructor in front. Additionally, you only get to go for 2 hot laps with the instructors (a few of whom, like David Murry and Hurley Haywood, are definitely killer drivers) at the very end of the school. To MetalSolid: No one likes driving canyons more than I do, so I have a lot of experience doing it, in addition to my track experience. I don't recommend that people push hard on canyon roads if they don't have significant track experience. Even at tracks that are known to be "unforgiving" like Infineon and Watkins Glen, there are a number of places where there's room for error, meaning you can spin and/or go off without hitting anything. On canyon roads, there's none. Add to that cars coming in the opposite direction, and driving hard in the canyons without being an experienced track driver is a recipe for disaster. If someone has time to spend driving canyons, then s/he has time to get to the track to learn how to drive his/her car at or near the limit. Finally, speaking of time, the comments of a number of people in this thread about not having enough time to do 2-day DE events explains why I allow people to run one or both days at TracQuest events. It's a PITA for me administratively, but a lot of people need and take advantage of that option. The customer is always right! I look forward to meeting some of you at the track!

Todd I hope you bring Traquest to TWS someday soon, it's a great track. The track is very popular with the Lone Star Region PCA for DE events, which always sell out well in advance. A lot of the guys who run TWS frequent the Rennlist and other boards, so I think it would be easy to get the word out and hopefully a good turnout. But it's like you said with so many things, easier to say than do.

Jim So which is more fun on the track, the V or the Z? I've slid a Skippy Viper around a small "track". What a ball. Also $100 is a great price for a track day. Scott Where do you run your "S"? (Nice yacht in the background) Todd Congratulations. I understand you run a great organization. I know you do Mid-Ohio, a track I intend to race at. Tracquest would be a great way to learn it. I know a lot of the people reading this thread could benefit from an organization like yours. You do have a few inaccuracies about PDE, however. Instructors do spend some time in the car with you. In the heel and toe portion, I had Hurley Haywood forcing me to single clutch i/o the double I was used to, which resulting in 4 or 5 very awkward turns. You're are correct that there is a lot of observation and ducks in a row exercizes. But I don't think that is a hindrance to learning. This is the same as many of the racing schools where you are in a formula car -- nowhere for the instructor to sit . The two newbies I did the school with found ducks-in-a-row very comfortable and non-intimidating, and an easy way to progress. I found all the instructors at PDE (no affiliation btw) to be excellent, as well as the ones I've met at Skip Barber. I think that consistent quality is one of the advantages of a professional school. And at their prices, I'd expect it. I do think anyone reading this would gain from any instructional track expereience be it Tracquest, PDE or any of the other options available. My point in bringing up PDE, Todd, is that it's ideal for anyone on this board who is concerned about their cars being torn up or excessively worn on the track. The PDE cars handle it with ease, and what is unique is those 996 owners learn in their own type of car as well. I know of no other organization that provides you with a current MY 996 to learn high performance driving. I'm sure after anyone with doubts about their 996 and the track completes a PDE 2-day, you'll have plenty of customers for further valuable instruction. Just my dos centavos.

Track days are fun and addicting. I started out as a watcher and ended up driving. I did find out one thing, don't have the dealer do your tech inspections for DE. I am getting my second transmission, through no fault of my own I would add, and I get to pay to have it put in. PCNA said they do not cover tracked cars. No matter how much or little you do. In this instance, PCNA not PAG is "gifting" the tranny so it will clearly not be under any sort of warranty. Seems like they are beginning the new era of SUV relationhsips with the customer. So fore warned and all that. But even through it all, the driving the climbing esses at VIR will give you a new perspective on life

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by STRSHP: <strong>Seems like they are beginning the new era of SUV relationhsips with the customer. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm... I wonder if PCNA void the warranty of Cayennes that have been out in the mud?

Todd, A few corrections: At the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE Master's) the instructors do get in the car with you, and they allow passing on the straights. I know because I did the program last week. The Barber track is something else. The PDE is an excellent program, and should be used as a base or complement to your program. The focus is more on the fundamentals of car control before going on the track and also on what is likely to happen on the track at speed. Your program is aimed (IMO) at building experience on the track for some, and providing track time for those with experience. I recommend them both, highly. They feed of each other!

Hi Mike: I guess I should have been clearer about no instructors being in the car with the students at the PDE. I was referring to the lapping portion of the experience, where the students are on the track. And fwiw, I agree with Hurley! I've trained a couple people to single clutch and heel toe rather than double clutch and it's helped them, one dramatically. I know people who are used to it are very fast at double clutching, but it's impossible for it to be as fast as a single clutch heel toe maneuver. Otoh, since I've very rarely driven cars that needed to be double clutched, if you and I were competing in cars that had crash boxes, I'd be toast! :-) As for the PDE instructors watching from corners and not getting in the cars when they're on track, I agree that things can be learned this way. However, it can't possibly be as beneficial as having the instructor right there in the car with you. With formula cars there's not choice since they only have one seat, but with street cars, the passenger seat provides a huge advantage that I feel should be utilized. I was told the reason it isn't at PDE, and it's quite simple: the instructors aren't paid enough to risk their lives with a novice driving a car with them in it. As someone who, like all club and DE instructors, only instructs from the passenger seat, this is a different way of thinking. Otoh, perhaps if I had David's or Hurley's experience and credentials, I might be more likely to feel this way. :-) You're right about the PDE providing a fairly unique experience in allowing participants to drive someone else's 996. However, customers pay dearly for the privilege; 2 days is around $2500, not including airfare to get there. For a lot less money, a 996 owner not wanting to put his/her car on the track could rent a 996($650/day in L.A., likely less elsewhere) and attend a DE event. That would be two days at a TracQuest event with money left over, during which the student would get 6 to 8 hours of track time, with an instructor next to him the entire time. And that would just be behind the wheel. Most students get another 2 to 4 hours of track time riding as a passenger in instructors' cars (or in their own cars with instructors driving if they so desire). As far as bang for the buck, I think a lot more would be learned after such a 2 day DE event. However, the one thing the student admittedly would not be able to say after a DE event is that s/he got to meet Hurley Haywood or David Murry! Anyway, I'd love for you to join us at Mid-Ohio if your schedule allows. You're correct - it would be a great way for you to familiarize yourself with the track. If you haven't checked the schedule, my first event there in 2003 is coming up in 2 weeks (Mon.-Tues., April 14-15) and the second one is on Mon.-Tues., Sept. 1-2 (Labor Day and the following Tuesday).

Colm How did you like the Master's Course. What did they cover. Is it two days or three? The newbies that I did the original course are interested in the advanced one. thanks in advance

Hi Colm: Very interesting comments. PDE must have changed its program since it moved to the Barber track, perhaps because it's a lot more forgiving than Road Atlanta? I talked with them at Road Atlanta and they told me that the instructors did not get into the cars with the students while they were lapping. There was also no passing. They tried to separate the students into groups by speed, since in a ducks in a row format, the slowest person in the group pretty much dictates how fast the entire group can go. In any event, I'm glad you enjoyed the PDE, and glad that they've changed it a bit. I was pretty candid, albeit polite, in telling them that I thought having instructors in the cars makes a huge difference in what a student gets out of a school. I think the changes you've mentioned will make a good program even better. So tell us about the Barber track. Generally I've heard exciting things, but I've yet to hear anything from someone who's actually driven it.

Mike, I liked it a lot, it's two day program. I would suggest, if you can go with a group of similar capability and you can set your own pace (within reason) within that group. Friendly competition! The Barber track is technical and difficult. It's more expensive than other programs, but they provide the cars and their Instructors are the top of the heap. In my opinion well worth the money. The skid pad exercises are very helpful. You get all the driving you can handle. On the second day, when you go out on your own (with about 8 other cars) you are limited to 6500 RPM in 4th gear. This was more than enough for me, and since you have an open track you drive as fast as you can, comfortably. To put it in perspective my objective was not to be the fastest, but to be the smooth, and drive the correct line. I think I was about 4th fastest in a group of 16, one guy lapped me twice in a 30 minute session on a 2.3 mile track. What a driver! So it caters to all levels. There is no timing allowed. Having been driven around by David Murry (I can say that!) and having held on for dear life I can say that I have no desire to drive at the speeds that he did, even if I could. If I were 25 years younger then I'd be chomping at the bit! The hot laps are very useful because it brings back peerspective after 2 days on the track. They make you realize that you have only tapped the surface, humbles you and sets you up for more experience at Tracquest like events. If you have more questions e-mail me.

Hi Colm: Reading your additional comments, while the PDE may have changed their format, I now know why what you've described looks very different from what I saw. You took the Advanced program, with which I'm not familiar. I saw, and therefore was discussing, the beginnner program. Do you know if that's been changed, or is it as I described? Also, if you don't mind posting it, how much was the Advanced program, and many days did it entail? I look forward to seeing you at another TracQuest event this year. Sadly, I've only got 3 more on the West Coast at Thunderhill (June), Willow Springs (September - big track) and Infineon (December). Do you have any plans to attend one or more of these?

The Barber track is technical, because: corners have elevation changes, straights are relatively short (one with esses, and dangerous) a laguna type cork-screw, but more difficult, a b**ch of a hairpin, with an elevation change a decreasing radius sweeper an up-hill, corner braking, off camber 90 turn. In addition, there are blind turn in points for some of the corners, where faith is required. It's more difficult than Road Atlanta, although the straights are shorter; and the back straight (with the esses) is the most dangerous part of the track.

Todd, It's a two day event, and I don't remember the exact price. I think it's in the same price range as the Beginner program, which hasn't changed format. Well worth the price of admission! Yes, I will do future Tracquest events, schedule permitting.

Hi Todd No matter what aspect of motorsports we consider, we seem to bump into "trade-offs". I agree having an instructor in the car with you can be invaluable. And most of the lapping at PDE is without an instructor. That's where you guys have an advantage without a doubt. Timing is also always a problem it seems. I'm doing a practice day on April 14th at Gingerman in prep for the July Club Race, and wil be at Road America for the Club Race Labor Day, so I can't do that one either. I'm not running at Mid-O this year as it's graduation weekend for my son (Back to positive cash flow at last!). Hopefully I'll be able to catch up with you next year. I'm sure those rave reviews I've heard are well deserved - especially in regards to the evening segments! Finally, thanks for being a Sponsor. We all get a lot out of Rennlist, and your support is much appreciated. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Hi Colm thanks for the update. That guy had to be flying to lap everyone twice in half an hour. I wonder if he was honoring the 4th gear/6500 prm rule. I think you were wise to concentrate on being smooth rather than fast. I've often found my fastest lap in qualifying is not the one where I thought I'd nailed it, but the one after when I was relaxed. I know what you mean about 25 years younger, but I still can't get enough of it. DE, lapping, racing, I just love it. Have a good season.

Hi Mike: I know all about scheduling conflicts! Hopefully you can make Mid-Ohio next year. Additionally, if you want to run some of the other great tracks around the country that are not within reasonable driving distance, I can arrange for arrive-and-drive track-prepped rental cars at most tracks. I'm thinking Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca and Infineon. As for sponsoring Rennlist, it's truly my pleasure to help to assure that such a worthwhile effort continues. I don't know if you know this, but I was actually one of the founders of Rennlist. Not that we did all that much - it was all Herr Dunkle even back then - but there were about 20 of us on a tiny list serve called "Disgruntled," which John created to discuss problems with Rennlist's predecessor list, Porschefans. Next thing we knew, and actually slightly before we intended, Porschelist (the original name for Rennlist) was live. It's amazing what John has done, starting with one tiny list serve and a bunch of wise guys!

Todd So my wife has you to blame, huh, for her being a Rennlist widow? Who else were among the quilty beside John D?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJ 996: <strong>Todd, Are you ever going to have a Traquest event in/near Texas?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And how about Southern Florida (Homestead, Moroso or Sebring)?

Mike, Excellent post about the wear & tear. What many people don't realize is that when they sit on stop & go traffic with their Porsches (with double mocka latte in their hand) that will do more harm to their car than what driving at track does. Obviously, your suspension bushings, brakes etc. don't get much wear but when you think about all that idling, you can almost hear carbon building up and that car begging: "please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..."

thanks Finn </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> ...hear carbon building up and that car begging: "please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Did your car beg in English, Finnish or German?

I cannot see the point of having such a car if you do not track it. There are many safe opportunities for this. It is the only sensible way to come even near the limits of our cars. The entrance ramp "racers" are missing an awful lot. If I didn't do de's I would sell the car. There is just no point, especially here in Florida where there are no winding country mountain roads. In discussing this with a former factory Porsche rally car driver and former winner of the Swedish Grand Prix (someone I met at a de), the point was made that the only other purpose of our cars is to act as "chick magnets." I am not interested in such "gold diggers." Of course I would never intend to to be so politically incorrect myself.

let me get this straight people...use a car for what it's designed or why have the car...isn't that like saying, why have a horse if you don't compete in quarter horse or other equestrian events, why have a tennis racquet if you don't play six days a week like me and compete in tournaments, why have a swimming pool if you aren't going to train to swim in the olypics, why drink a beer if you aren't gonna get drunk, why cook if you aren't gonna work as a chef, why have a truck if you aren't actually gonna haul hay and do truck hauling stuff,...well people, maybe, just maybe it's cause as we are all different, thank God, we enjoy things at different levels, and besides, there's way too much self-righteous banter from the DE people around this forum. guess what, just because you do DEs, it' doesn't mean you are a good driver. chaw on that cud for awhile. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> i appreciate palting's question. how can all of you not appreciate and understand that a porsche is what it is and the driver makes the car what it is...whether on interstate ramps on on the track. trackies, couldn't the best porsche drivers in the world criticize you and say, "if you aren't gonna drive it like it can be driven"...see we all are less than someone and greater than others. geez <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />

P That wasn't very zen. Go back and read the entire thread. Nobody was self-righteous. Nobody was saying they were greater than someone else. Nobody was demeaning anyone who doesn't want to track their car. The point was to discuss some of the reservations people may have about it, and remove any unfounded doubts. "Geez"? Hmmm... "geez" -- I know, that's what you pull in a corner on the track, right? (Wow, are we up to 12,500 registered users? I wonder how many of those are paid members?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by P-Zen: <strong>there's way too much self-righteous banter from the DE people around this forum.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Only if you feel inadequate. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by P-Zen: [QB] guess what, just because you do DEs, it' doesn't mean you are a good driver. chaw on that cud for awhile.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Someone who has done DEs understands the limits of their car, and car control, much better than folks who think, emphasis on "think," they are "good" drivers because they can take a highway offramp at 60. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by P-Zen: [QB] how can all of you not appreciate and understand that a porsche is what it is and the driver makes the car what it is...whether on interstate ramps on on the track.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, the driver is the most important component and a driver that does DEs will be a much better driver than someone who has never done a DE and thinks they know how to push their car because they think they can drive well because they haven't wiped out driving on an off ramp. The driver with the better training will be able to extract much more out of his Porsche than some guy who thinks he's a "driver" as he tootles around an off ramp. I would suggest that you attend one DE before you dig that hole any deeper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Mike in Chi: <strong>thanks Finn </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> ...hear carbon building up and that car begging: "please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Did your car beg in English, Finnish or German? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well, first she was begging in English with German accent but now it's been only "Jeees! Tain sen pitaa menna! Lisaa!!!" (translate from Finnish: Oh yeees! This is how it's supposed to go! Gimme more!!!

To add my two cents on the topic: Wear/tear, insurance, warranty, and time issues are really serious if and when something unplanned happens. A very good alternative to tracking in a DE event or similar is Auto-x. It is not hard on wearable items with the exception of breaks and tires. And that is only if you are seriously competing in SCCA Solo II, marque AX events are not that competitive. AX usuall is around $25 to 35 for participation, and it teaches you car control in a very rapid way. The results of one's actions are seen immediately, and it is always timed so you can figure easily how you are doing and how you compare to others. I certainly do not want to start a AX vs. track war here, but it is said that a good Auto-x driver adapts and becomes a very quick track driver easier than the other way around. I personally tend to believe that, but its just an opinion. Additional benefits of AX over full out tracking are you are much less likely to damage the car (speeds almost never exceed 60 mph), you are mostly within first two gears, and there are usually many run-off areas around hard corners. Furthermore, many AX events are half-day, some are full day, and almost never two days (except SCCA Solo II nationals) So, for those who are not much inclined to try a track event, you should try first AX, see how much you enjoy and don't participate again if you do not like it May be after a while, you'll move to tracks On another note: I am really unhappy about warranties excluding tracked cars. I am wondering what is the policy about the GT3. That is clearly a track car, especially GT3R. If one orders one of these, they are implicitly and may be explicitly saying "I have 'intentions' to track this car." How is PNA responding: "You can, but then you do not get warranty?" Within the same lines: if I take the Cayenne off-road and break the axle, they are not cover it because it has mud on its tires? I think they should cover these under warranty, and we should start putting much more pressure on these guys through the car clubs. FT!

i don't think anyone is saying that every porsche owner MUST track their cars. it's just that tracking can be fun, of cousre it's dangerous if you drive over your head. tracking may make you a better driver and it's a more controlled environment for you to TRY to approach the upper limits of your car. certainly nothing wrong with not tracking... 996 is an amazing car on street as well.

Okay. To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by slodrivingmike: <strong>Okay. To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Easy, Mike. I know that that's just friendly ribbing, but some people may not take it that way. I asked the question because I am so hooked on DE I can't see why everybody isn't doing it. Valid counter points were raised, and there actually have been times I've had a twinge of guilt at the end of a DE weekend. But, I'll keep doing it, and here's how I rationalize it. Time. There is always time for doing something you like to do. It's just a question of priorities, and DE is pretty high up there in my list. Family. I make the DE event part of a family event. We all participate in each others activities. Cost. C'mon now. It ain't that expensive, and you can keep the number of events down. It's just another week or weekend of vacation. Car upkeep. Well, wearables will wear, usables will get used up, no doubt. That's just part of maintenance. But I don't believe it will increase the cost of maintenance that much. And we are all lucky to have a marque that is known for performance as well as durability. Bulletproof is a term I've often heard. There have been some recent hiccups, but durability is still up there relative to some other performance marques. Car loss. My car can get totaled just as easily on a highway because of some drunk SOB. In fact, I believe the chances are LESS at a well organized DE event than at rush hour Calif traffic. Also, the probability of an accident is directly proportional to how aggresively you drive. Driving at the upper limits of your comfort level and not beyond is the key, IMHO. As your driving improves, your ability, speed, lap times, etc all improve as well but you should contine to drive at that same level of comfort. Fun. That's a with a capital F-U-N. Stay safe, leave you ego behind, drive at 7/10ths, and you can still have one of the best highs that can be got legally. C'mon, y'all. Try it, you'll love it. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> you can almost hear carbon building up and that car begging: "please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So that's what I've been hearing! I thought it was the drugs. I am ever so relieved! Chris

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cmoss: <strong>So that's what I've been hearing! I thought it was the drugs. I am ever so relieved! Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Oh yes, take her & burn those nasty carbon deposits out! (and I'm NOT talking those thing you can smoke, just the car...)! Re: AutoX, I've tried couple of times and while it's kind of fun, there just ain't enough speed for me. And at least last time, that was hard for my engine also since I was revving it hard all the time (I did get the FTD though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

I have a feeling this thread may be worn out, but I'll throw in my two cents. I am a very young Porsche owner - a few years ago I bought 914 and got hooked and ordered a 2001 C4. My car is Tiptronic, and I am probably able to drive it at about 50% to 2/3 of what it would be capable of with an experienced racer. That said, I enjoy my car fully and do not own it for status purposes. My reason for not tracking it is time - my life is hectic enough right now that I am lucky to get a leisurely 30 minute drive, much less get to a track. I look forward to learning the limits of my car in such a venue a few years down the road, but right now it is simply not an easy thing to take advantage of. Perhaps I am in a unique situation, but there may be many other owners out there (especially the type who would not visit this site) who feel the same way. We enjoy our cars wholeheartedly, even if we have not learned to push them to the limits - yet. -Mike 01 996 C4, AS, Tip

I heard they are building a track soon here in Dubai and hope to try the fun you guys talking about coz we really need to feel how she acts (on) bed specially the thousands of beauties sleeping in grages here, atleast we save the radar tickets for the track expenses We will join you soon tnx Palting ty all

"To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." LOL!! This is pretty useful: Why would anyone track a stock street car, on street tires, when it would be a lot more fun with a few mods? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." Why would anyone spend thousands of dollars on extra wheels, etc to make their street car a better DE car, when they could race? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." Why would anyone take a pefectly good street car, spend TENS of thousands putting in a cage, etc, to race a Porsche, when you can go much faster for much less $$ in, say, an SCCA formula car? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." Why would anyone race a formula car in SCCA when, for a couple mill, you could race in pro Atlantic? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." Why would anyone race in pro Atlantic, when Chris Pook is desperate for entries and handing out $$ so you can race in the series formerly known as CART? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." YIKES!

wch </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Why would anyone take a pefectly good street car, spend TENS of thousands putting in a cage, etc, to race a Porsche, when you can go much faster for much less $$ in, say, an SCCA formula car? "To put it more succinctly, it is because they are pussies." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It's not cheaper. lol. But having seen more than one formula car in front of me assume the attitude of the one in my avatar, I came to appreciate the idea of fenders on four corners. But thanks for the idea. "Hey Wait For Me" Racing may soon have a window hanger similar to the "Baby on Board" ones saying "***** on Board". Wanna buy one? (Hmmm, I wonder if it will pass tech?) <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Yeah well I have five kids! They love riding in the pcar. Most track events are during the week and I can't/ wont take the time off because my time off from work would be to go on vacation. Weekends are for family! I would really LIKE to ggo to the track buti can't see myself taking the time away! Although I am cinsidering the TrackQuest in May at Watkins Glen!!!!

I autocross my 996, but didn't wish to risk it on the track. So like others here, I scraped together the money for a track car (which is still street licensed). In that car I have harnesses, seats, rollbar, (cage someday) and all the suspension mods necessary to really do things properly. A cage, or rollbar really isn't a good idea in a street car, nor are track pads and frankly, my 911's ride on the street is nearly unbearable. As good as Porsche street cars are, every car made has a certain set of compromises it makes given its primary objective. Frankly, for as much as I use it now, I'd sell the 996, but I love it too much to part with it. <img src="http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1ktsj/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/rsatrr_32103_4web.jpg" alt=" - " />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RJay: <strong>A cage, or rollbar really isn't a good idea in a street car, nor are track pads and frankly, my 911's ride on the street is nearly unbearable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why not? Based upon the picture, it looks like you merely have driver back roll bar rather than a full cage. Why do you think that driver back bars aren't a good idea in a street driven car? Track pads are fine on the street in 996s, if you can stand the SQUEEEEEEEEEL.

Guys, one funny thing about Porsches is that you can just drive one to the track, run around until you're too tired to turn the wheel, then drive back home and next day drive to work/school/whatever like nothing happened. Or, at least it seems to be that way with these old 944s me & my friends have. I'd imagine a 996 or any new Porsche would be just as reliable, only faster

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Pete: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RJay: <strong>A cage, or rollbar really isn't a good idea in a street car, nor are track pads and frankly, my 911's ride on the street is nearly unbearable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why not? Based upon the picture, it looks like you merely have driver back roll bar rather than a full cage. Why do you think that driver back bars aren't a good idea in a street driven car? Track pads are fine on the street in 996s, if you can stand the SQUEEEEEEEEEL.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As its been explained to me, if you're in an accident in a car with a roll bar (or cage for that matter) you stand a good chance of cracking your skull open on it even with belts on. I've seen crash dummy video of belt testing which demonstrates this effect. Belts don't really stop you from flying around in a crash, they give to a surprising extent, enough that you hopefully don't damage too much of yer innards, but not enough that you contact anything hard as your moving forward. But on the return trip back into the seat you are free floating and you can ride up and contact the bar with your head. I'm sure there are a ton of factors here, from what type of belting system, how tightly you're locked in, the type of seat, your height and weight as well as the the nature of the accident. Padding apparently doesn't afford sufficient relief in these cases, or so I've been told. What you need is a helmet, which of course, we don't tend to wear on the street. Obviously, as you've spotted, I've ignore this advice, but I only have the car licensed to be able to drive rather than trailer to my tech and nearby autocrosses, so I'm willing to risk it, which of course, still doesn't make it a good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RJay: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Pete: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RJay: <strong>A cage, or rollbar really isn't a good idea in a street car, nor are track pads and frankly, my 911's ride on the street is nearly unbearable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why not? Based upon the picture, it looks like you merely have driver back roll bar rather than a full cage. Why do you think that driver back bars aren't a good idea in a street driven car? Track pads are fine on the street in 996s, if you can stand the SQUEEEEEEEEEL.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As its been explained to me, if you're in an accident in a car with a roll bar (or cage for that matter) you stand a good chance of cracking your skull open on it even with belts on. I've seen crash dummy video of belt testing which demonstrates this effect. Belts don't really stop you from flying around in a crash, they give to a surprising extent, enough that you hopefully don't damage too much of yer innards, but not enough that you contact anything hard as your moving forward. But on the return trip back into the seat you are free floating and you can ride up and contact the bar with your head. I'm sure there are a ton of factors here, from what type of belting system, how tightly you're locked in, the type of seat, your height and weight as well as the the nature of the accident. Padding apparently doesn't afford sufficient relief in these cases, or so I've been told. What you need is a helmet, which of course, we don't tend to wear on the street. Obviously, as you've spotted, I've ignore this advice, but I only have the car licensed to be able to drive rather than trailer to my tech and nearby autocrosses, so I'm willing to risk it, which of course, still doesn't make it a good idea.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It would pretty much impossible for me to hit my rollbar unless one seat or the other were to be forcibly dislodged during an accident. There simply isn't enough room, hence my question about your rationale. <img src="http://home.pacbell.net/psf0/GT3seat.jpg" alt=" - " />

Pete-just went to the NASA HPDE at Thunderhill yesterday and I was surprized it was not as disorganized or rough as people say. What's amzing to me is there are so many cars(parking lot packed upon belief) and still run every group including races/qualifying almost on schedule. the last track session was delayed by about 12-13 minutes but they rewarded out group an extra 10 minutes of track time over the 20 minute track session. Yeah definitely between sessions there is waiting time but man such a spectacle of different cars and races to watch like the Porsche Racing Club/Track spec BMW E30/36/46/mini and M variants class/and kit race cars(man-there's these little cars that look like mini- PT Cruiser muscle cars-wow they are freaking fast all going hell on fire)etc. Got a migraine listening to all those high powered race cars. There's another event with NASA at Sear's Point May 25th but since I never done Sear's Point I be in Group One with instructor(hope I graduate fast). Track is way awesome!!! Regards. Mike

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6: <strong>kit race cars(man-there's these little cars that look like mini- PT Cruiser muscle cars-wow they are freaking fast all going hell on fire)etc. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sounds like a good time. My kids were with me at Sears when I did the NASA event and they kept asking me when the clowns were going to get out of those little midget cars.

Yep Pete-I was in shear awe watching them(mini-ptcruisers) going blasting thru the straight from turn 15 to 1 and manage to not kill each other as they head to the next turn-saw as many as 10 at one time seemingly making thru the turn at one time without incident. Haven't brought my kid to an event yet but she'll probably say the same thing as you : ). Regards. Mike

Pete - It appears from your photo that your seatbelt connects to the receptacle over the top of the GT3 seat instead of through the guide hole by your right hip. Is that how it's supposed to work. Is it possible to mount the receptacle lower you you can use the guide hole with the standard belt?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GrantG: <strong>Pete - It appears from your photo that your seatbelt connects to the receptacle over the top of the GT3 seat instead of through the guide hole by your right hip. Is that how it's supposed to work. Is it possible to mount the receptacle lower you you can use the guide hole with the standard belt?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't know. Perhaps they make a shorter receptacle but for the street it works fine for me. I was going to investigate it afetr I did the install but have been too lazy and frankly it works fine for me in that configuration.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Pete: It would pretty much impossible for me to hit my rollbar unless one seat or the other were to be forcibly dislodged during an accident. There simply isn't enough room, hence my question about your rationale. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Assuming there's no deformation of the seat and/or the bar in a shunt. When you watch the videos (these were supplied by Schroth) you see all sorts of stuff flexing substantially in a crash. Looking at your install, which is darn clean, perhaps it isn't a problem. Mine (which was done before I got the car) is nowhere near as tight to roof as yours. Again, this isn't my theory so I can neither prove or disprove it, I'm just repeating the wisdom (or lack thereof) of others. I've also been told that is pretty dangerous not to have a seat back brace if you have a cross bar directly behind the seat. A friend of a friend was killed when his seat submarined under the cross brace which broke his neck (track rear end accident contacting a wall). Again heresay, I suppose, but after I heard this I installed one. Jeez Pete, this is starting to depress me, lets think happier thoughts! Cheers! <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />

I have been told the same thing as RJay, and I believe that SCCA now requires that seat backs be braced against the roll bar or cage. The risk is the seat back (or the seat rails) fracturing from rear-directed force, at which point there would be nothing between the driver/passenger and the roll bar/cage.